Top NHL player in the 21st Century so far? #4(Inspired by ESPN ranking)

[Mrb1p]

Of course he was, and he put up a season in 2012 that is significantly better than any season ever from Crosby.



So was it Crosby's half season or his quarter season that made him the best player in your opinion?

If Ovie was the best player from 2007-2010, and Malkin put up a season better than any season Crosby has ever had in 2012, I don't know where Sid sneaks in here.

Crosby was the best player during the two seasons when he won the Hart, and that's about it.

You just ignore what Crosby did in those 60ish games and bury your head in the sand. You have to suspend belief very hard to say "Well Mario Lemieux wasn't the bes tplayer in 93-94 despite having the best production and winning back to back art rosses, why do you do it for Sid ? Aside from your obvious bias, of course.

 

[Video Nasty]

You just ignore what Crosby did in those 60ish games and bury your head in the sand. You have to suspend belief very hard to say "Well Mario Lemieux wasn't the bes tplayer in 93-94 despite having the best production and winning back to back art rosses, why do you do it for Sid ? Aside from your obvious bias, of course.

Because leading up to 2010-2011, Crosby hadn’t won the Art Ross in any of the previous three seasons (or Hart or the Pearson) and he won just one scoring race in the three seasons following 2012-2013.

Lemieux gets some benefit of the doubt because leading up to 1993-1994, he won four of the previous five scoring races, two Harts, two Pearsons, and put up monstrous point totals.

Totally different players, totally different situations. I hate the what if game for any player, but I can at least see why people play it with Mario.

 

[norrisnick]

Not without 8 of his seasons he isn't. Perhaps you are misreading the poll? This series only credits Lidstrom with things that happened after 1/1/2000. So basically his career starts at age 29 for our purposes here. He loses 650 regular season games and 114 playoff games in this (arbitrary) comparison. They count for nothing.

Anyway, the pool of defensemen - all-time greats - doesn't remotely compete with forwards.

I mean, you could easily say the same for some of Malkin's.

That's on the people ranking them, not the defensemen. Defensemen are woefully underrated as a whole.

 

[JackSlater]

Malkin here, an underrated player due to missing chunks of games here and there. Hurts Lidstrom to miss out on some elite 90s seasons but I wouldn't begrudge his votes. Rightly the vote looks like a two horse race.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Malkin.

Most HFboards browsers will just see the name Lidstrom and vote for him though, not realizing that 40% of his career should be left off the poll.

Hart record
Kane 1, 6, 6*, 7, 8
Kucherov 1, 2, 6, 8
MacKinnon 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6
Malkin 1, 2*, 2, 7
* also won the Smythe that year

Clearly this is oversimplified so don’t take it for more than it is, but Hart contending seasons tend to be the single biggest factor when comparing this tier of players.

MacKinnon has already surpassed Malkin and Kane in this area. Kucherov has a chance to do the same. In the long run I think we will end up viewing MacKinnon as the ”greatest” of this group, especially if he has a typical career arc with at least a couple more Hart-relevant seasons ahead of him.

You left off a 10th place Hart finish for Malkin.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Malkin.

Most HFboards browsers will just see the name Lidstrom and vote for him though, not realizing that 40% of his career should be left off the poll.


You left off a 10th place Hart finish for Malkin.

I didn’t include 10ths at all, for the selfish reason that it’s easier to spot single digit numbers in a list

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I didn’t include 10ths at all, for the selfish reason that it’s easier to spot single digit numbers in a list

Oh, my bad.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

If we exclude anything before January 1st, 2000, Lidstrom loses exactly 650 games. Not a small amount - that's 41.5% of his career total.

On the other hand, Lidstrom wasn't equally good throughout his career. It took him half a decade to develop. He was a Norris trophy finalist 11 times; 8 of those seasons took place after 2000 (plus he should get credit for half of the 1999-00 campaign). Even if we exclude everything before January 1st, 2000, Lidstrom would still get credit for all seven of his Norris trophies, plus his Conn Smythe.

Malkin still ends up with more games (1,145 vs 914). Is Malkin so much better that 231 extra games makes up the difference? Maybe. But if I had to choose between a defensemen who gave me 8 or 9 years as Norris trophy finalist (with seven wins), or a forward who placed in the top ten in scoring four times, I'd go with the defenseman.

 

[BigEezyE22]

The correct answer is Geno mother f***ing Machino

 

[tarheelhockey]

Malkin still ends up with more games (1,145 vs 914). Is Malkin so much better that 231 extra games makes up the difference?

In my opinion, Malkin 1145 games don’t have quite as much value as Lidstrom’s 914.

As someone else suggested, Lidstrom was at or near the top of the defensemen list for all but maybe 2 of those seasons. Malkin spent quite a bit of time closer to the 10th best forward than to the 1st. If I’m picking a roster for this time period, I’d pick Lidstrom before Malkin.

 

[Killer Orcas]

All credit to Gordie Howe but Lidström has the best 30+ career in league history.

Gordie don't mind he's good with the 40 plus career still.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I mean Malkin clearly never was the best player in the league as Crosby was that man and Ovechkin for like 2 other years and then Price/Kane/McDavid.

Best player went post lockout went something like:
Joe
Ovi
Sid
Price
McDavid

Malkin was the best player in the world by far in 2011-12. At the time we didn't know when Crosby would be back and if he'd be the same.

 

[Mrb1p]

Malkin was the best player in the world by far in 2011-12. At the time we didn't know when Crosby would be back and if he'd be the same.

At the time Crosby had shown he was head and shouilders above anyone before being injured. You can use the argument that "He WaSnT aVAilAbLe" but then that doesn't mean Malkin was the best player, it means he was the best "available" player.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Ultimately voted Malkin due to peak and length of his career in the 21st century.

Also, something I didn’t really see mentioned is that Malkin didn’t really miss any time in the playoffs due to injuries (minus 2011), so you get him for 17 potential playoff runs vs 12 for Lidstrom.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

At the time Crosby had shown he was head and shouilders above anyone before being injured. You can use the argument that "He WaSnT aVAilAbLe" but then that doesn't mean Malkin was the best player, it means he was the best "available" player.

Not sure you remember but Crosby was gone for so long people were wondering if he was going to retire. And if he did come back if he'd be the same player. So people did consider Malkin the best player in the world at the time.

 

[Mrb1p]

Not sure you remember but Crosby was gone for so long people were wondering if he was going to retire. And if he did come back if he'd be the same player. So people did consider Malkin the best player in the world at the time.

I don't care what people think, the reality is the last time Crosby played, he was the best player in the world.

 

[Grifter3511]

I think the answer should be Malkin, Kane or Lidstrom, but I voted for Lundqvist simply because Price has votes and f that.

 

[Felidae]

Brodeur. Four Vezinas plus three additional finalist nominations. Three Hart finalist nominations and two additional top 5 nods. 819 games and 447 wins. 3 SCF appearances and a win. All from age 28 on (assuming this is starting with the 2000-2001 season, if not, tack on another Cup, another Conn Smythe worthy playoff run, another top 5 Vezina nomination, and pushing 900 games played and 500 wins).

Some of Brodeur's vezina wins are pretty debatable.

2002-03 you could argue should have gone to Turco, 2003-04 the same with Luongo and even 2006-07 (though that one is pretty damn close that I don't care either way).

Even if you think all those wins were deserved, i'll take Lidstrom who was the best at his position almost every year.

 

[Grifter3511]

Some of Brodeur's vezina wins are pretty debatable.

2002-03 you could argue should have gone to Turco, 2003-04 the same with Luongo and even 2006-07 (though that one is pretty damn close that I don't care either way).

Even if you think all those wins were deserved, i'll take Lidstrom who was the best at his position almost every year.

Also, Brodeur wouldn't shake Avery's hand. What kind of leadership is that? And we know how much this board loves leadership.

 

[Video Nasty]

Some of Brodeur's vezina wins are pretty debatable.

2002-03 you could argue should have gone to Turco, 2003-04 the same with Luongo and even 2006-07 (though that one is pretty damn close that I don't care either way).

Even if you think all those wins were deserved, i'll take Lidstrom who was the best at his position almost every year.

One could easily argue the same about Lidstrom’s 2001-2002 and 2010-2011 Norris wins.

Besides, Brodeur was third in Hart voting and had the second most first place votes in 2002-2003. He was probably the right choice for the Vezina.

 

[norrisnick]

One could easily argue the same about Lidstrom’s 2001-2002 and 2010-2011 Norris wins.

Besides, Brodeur was third in Hart voting and had the second most first place votes in 2002-2003. He was probably the right choice for the Vezina.

TF?

 

[Zuluss]

I'd add Dats and Jumbo Joe to the next one, even though the loser in the Lidstrom/Malkin matchup will win the next poll anyway.

 

[um]

Lidstrom.

Malkin had a chance, but lost too many seasons too injuries.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Voted Evander Kane

 

[Acallabeth]

XXI century Lidstrom is actually peak Lidstrom. I voted him.

7 Norris Trophies, 2 Cups, Conn Smythe, led all defensemen in goals and assists from 2000 until retirement while being one of the most effective shutdown and PK defensemen in the league, great leader.

And I would argue Kucherov should be next, not Malkin, based on his accomplishments already (and being very likely to add on them).