Top NHL player in the 21st Century so far? #2(Inspired by ESPN ranking)

[John Garretts KD]

I don’t understand the criteria.

Is it most talented / best peak/prime?

Or is it best resume / career totals?

 

[Andrei79]

After his 5th there was a noticeable decline in scoring leaguewide. His last top 10 scoring season he finished 4th with 81 points.

For reference, the 4th best scorer point totals the last 3 years have had 120, 113, 110.

I agree he wasn't the same player but the change in scoring environment makes the decline worse than it actually is, at least from a statistical perspective.

This is actually a very good point.

 

[Video Nasty]

After his 5th season there was a noticeable decline in scoring leaguewide. His last top 10 scoring season he finished 4th with 81 points.

For reference, the 4th best scorer point totals the last 3 years have had 120, 113, 110.

I agree he wasn't the same player but the change in scoring environment makes the decline worse than it actually is, at least from a statistical perspective.

I think it’s somewhere in between at best. The scoring environment change gives him way too much of a pass for my liking for falling off as an all-around offensive force at just 25 years old.

He was 1st in PPG for three consecutive years, won an Art Ross, and was mere points from sweeping all three years (while missing 3 and 10 games). Then he exited the scoring race overnight.

From 2010-2011 through 2019-2020 (the final season he led the league in goals):

Raw points finishes:

7, 38, 4, 10, 4, 15, 23, 11, 15, 19

PPG:

9, 40, 4, 11, 8, 19, 29, 15, 19, 24

Finishing fourth was the anomaly during the ten years in question, so we can avoid trying to draw parallels to a modern day finish of 110-120, but I’ll still include them being his two best finishes and to help out his average over this time period.

Let’s throw out 2011-2012 and 2016-2017 as his two worst finishes.

We’re left with an average finish of 9th, which brings him down to the 100-104 point range, which matches up more with the actual change in scoring levels, plus a generous extra 5% to be kind to Ovechkin.

When we speak of his decline, it’s not the actual raw numbers and how they compare to today that we’re talking about. The decline was sharp and remains bad.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don’t understand the criteria.

Is it most talented / best peak/prime?

Or is it best resume / career totals?

Yes.

And so people talk past each other in these threads all the time.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Ovechkin’s style of play at his peak was clearly unsustainable, just by the way he was depending on his otherworldly physical gifts to be dominant. His body would have just crashed had he continued to play like a wrecking ball on every play for more years, and it probably did to some degree.

He depended much more on his physical gifts than players like Crosby or Kucherov for example, which made him look more dominant at his peak, but less dominant when he left his prime and lost his explosion.

 

[filinski77]

I think it’s somewhere in between at best. The scoring environment change gives him way too much of a pass for my liking for falling off as an all-around offensive force at just 25 years old.

He was 1st in PPG for three consecutive years, won an Art Ross, and was mere points from sweeping all three years (while missing 3 and 10 games). Then he exited the scoring race overnight.

From 2010-2011 through 2019-2020 (the final season he led the league in goals):

Raw points finishes:

7, 38, 4, 10, 4, 15, 23, 11, 15, 19

PPG:

9, 40, 4, 11, 8, 19, 29, 15, 19, 24

Finishing fourth was the anomaly during the ten years in question, so we can avoid trying to draw parallels to a modern day finish of 110-120, but I’ll still include them being his two best finishes and to help out his average over this time period.

Let’s throw out 2011-2012 and 2016-2017 as his two worst finishes.

We’re left with an average finish of 9th, which brings him down to the 100-104 point range, which matches up more with the actual change in scoring levels, plus a generous extra 5% to be kind to Ovechkin.

When we speak of his decline, it’s not the actual raw numbers and how they compare to today that we’re talking about. The decline was sharp and remains bad.

The way I see it, Ovechkin had his 3 year peak (which is up there for the best consecutive 3 years for anyone not big-4).

After that, he had:
-> 2013 where he had the best season of any player (even though Crosby was the better player that year)
-> 2015 where he was the best forward in the league (lost Hart to Price).
-> 7 Rocket Rickard’s
-> A few additional seasons being a top-10 player

Very good for a post-peak player.

 

[Johnny Rifle]

Ovechkin just has too many team and individual accomplishments to not put him as number two. He’s consistent, reliable, and fairly durable.

McDavid is a clear #3, number four is the interesting question. I could make an argument for Brodeur, Malkin, Lidstrom, or even Matthews, but I simply can’t pick one at the moment.

 

[hamzarocks]

1. Mcdavid
2. Crosby
3. OV

Mcdavid 9 years are the 3rd best consequtive 9-years in hockey a player has ever had after Gretzky and probably sime stretch for Howe

*Lemieux & Orr if they had been healthy would have had better 9-year stretches too.

*Crosby if healthy would have been a bit worse for his first 9 year stretch from 06-14 than Mcdavid

 

[Gurglesons]

1. Mcdavid
2. Crosby
3. OV

Mcdavid 9 years are the 3rd best consequtive 9-years in hockey a player has ever had after Gretzky and probably sime stretch for Howe

*Lemieux & Orr if they had been healthy would have had better 9-year stretches too.

*Crosby if healthy would have been a bit worse for his first 9 year stretch from 06-14 than Mcdavid

What makes McDavid's 9 years so much more impressive than Jagr, exactly if you are saying "point leads" define it?

 

[Video Nasty]

What makes McDavid's 9 years so much more impressive than Jagr, exactly if you are saying "point leads" define it?

More Hart, Lindsay, Rocket, and Conn Smythe awards for starters. More impressive playoff runs. More times leading the league in assists (he’s second to only Gretzky and Orr). Didn’t need Lemieux to come out of retirement to make him care for a little while longer.

 

[hamzarocks]

What makes McDavid's 9 years so much more impressive than Jagr, exactly if you are saying "point leads" define it?

Pretty much what @Video Nasty said in post 35

Jagr also didnt have any 9-year stretch where he was top 3 in ppg

His best stretch is only 7 years where he racked a lot of awards but mostly due to the Mcdavid of that era (still think Lemieux is a bit better than mcdavid) mostly not playing

1995 - 2001 was Jagr's stretch

Mcdavid has at least 8 years if you dont want to give him 2016 for his rookie 48 in 45 game season where he was 3rd in ppg.

2017 - 2024 is Mcdavid' stretch with him being more dominant and clearing himself from #2 in the league by bigger amounts at his peak years (2021 and 2023) than Jagr in his peak seasons did

It seems impossible Mcdavid isnt top 3 in ppg and wins a few more rosses/harts/lindsays the mext 3-4 years stretching out his absurd prime to 11-12 years

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin’s style of play at his peak was clearly unsustainable, just by the way he was depending on his otherworldly physical gifts to be dominant. His body would have just crashed had he continued to play like a wrecking ball on every play for more years, and it probably did to some degree.

He depended much more on his physical gifts than players like Crosby or Kucherov for example, which made him look more dominant at his peak, but less dominant when he left his prime and lost his explosion.

Ovechkin's physicality sustained into his mid to late 30s. I think there were years, such as 2018, where his hitting decreased in the regular season only to ramp back up in the playoffs.

 

[Imgoingtowork]

1. Jagr
2. Brodeur
3. Ovechkin

The Russian became 00s best if reach Gretzky's goal record.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Have to go with the guys who’s potentially going to break the goal scoring record, Ovechkin.

This

 

[Video Nasty]

Very strange how McDavid clobbered Ovechkin in voting during the #1 thread, but then lost out on #2.

 

[Regal]

Very strange how McDavid clobbered Ovechkin in voting during the #1 thread, but then lost out on #2.

Not really. Most people voting for Crosby in round 1 are valuing the extra seasons so would likely also vote for Ovechkin.

 

[hamzarocks]

Very strange how McDavid clobbered Ovechkin in voting during the #1 thread, but then lost out on #2.

Yeah dumb voting not factoring in Mcdavids current accomplishments and expected dominance for next 5 years

97 > 87 > 8 > 71

Top 3-5 player all time
Top 7-10 player all time
Top 10-15 player all time
Top 40-50 player all time

Mcdavid is the only player with a chance to move up now on the all time listings

Crosby, OV, Malkin are at the tail end of their legandary careers and cant do anything now to move up alltime to the next tier range

Mcdavid can solidify himself as 2nd or 3rd depending on how next 5 years go for him

 

[Albatros]

Crosby can climb quite high in all-time goals, assists, points depending on how many years he still has in him, of course that's going to affect his legacy if he passes Mario Lemieux & co.

 

[Video Nasty]

Yeah dumb voting not factoring in Mcdavids current accomplishments and expected dominance for next 5 years

97 > 87 > 8 > 71

Top 3-5 player all time
Top 7-10 player all time
Top 10-15 player all time
Top 40-50 player all time

Mcdavid is the only player with a chance to move up now on the all time listings

Crosby, OV, Malkin are at the tail end of their legandary careers and cant do anything now to move up alltime to the next tier range

Mcdavid can solidify himself as 2nd or 3rd depending on how next 5 years go for him

If McDavid does even half the damage over the next five seasons that he did over his previous nine, the detractors are really going to dislike where he ends up in the all-time rankings.

When someone has 7-8 Art Rosses, 4-5 Harts, 5-6 Lindsays, 1-2 Cups and 2-3 Conn Smythes, paired with 1600+ season points and 200+ playoff points through just 14 seasons, Gretzky will be the only convincing argument as to who remains ahead of him.

Not really. Most people voting for Crosby in round 1 are valuing the extra seasons so would likely also vote for Ovechkin.

Makes sense.