Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 9

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,883
2,509
I finished the 1903 SC series this morning. Marshall definitely looks better here than in the 1902 series, and I can see a case for him as the series MVP. I don't think it is anything definite, though, as there is some high praise for Hooper in there as well.

The press coverage of these games provides some pretty good insight into Marshall's style of play- he seems like a try-hard, and I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way. I don't get the vibe that he was particularly skilled, he just never stopped working and didn't shy away from anything.

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 29 January 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “‘Dicky’ Boon expressed himself as follows this morning: ‘The best team won. It was hockey. The ice was terrible, and that accounts for the poor quality of the match. The puck would not slide at all. It was difficult to move it. I am well satisfied with the team, and I do not see any reason why it should be changed. Phillips’ work satisfied me. He covered his man, did he not? That was the only game to play under conditions like those of yesterday, man against man’”

“Oleson in goal appeared at first a little nervous, but he put up a good game. He is a clever blocker and has his eye on the puck all the time. His stability at critical moments was quite noticeable. The position of point was played by the old timer, Roddy Flett, but this player is dropping away, and his work, while aggressive, was, at its best, only fair. He did not appear to realize the situation, and his blocking was not too rapid. He was a disappointment to his friends and possibly he realized the fact at times”

“”In the first place, Oleson, between the flags, was not equal to the occasion. He may be a good goalkeeper under ordinary conditions, but the novelty of the situation seemed to render his work mediocre, and he did not stop anything difficult during the game”

“Though Roddy Flett got off the train from a 1,500 mile trip just two hours before the match, he played with remarkable judgment, and was, in fact, the strong man of the seven throughout. Magnus also put up a creditable article, while Kean on the forward line the junior from whom much could not be reasonably expected, played with comparative brilliance. Scanlan and Cadham were working all the time, but never got a chance to shine. Their checks looked after them so diligently that they were in second place throughout. Gingras tried to use his body, but Referee Quinn would not let him, and, in fact, ruled him off once when he had not committed an offence”

“Hooper was a perfect whirlwind and got by the opposing defence for four goals. Nicholson in goal was a source of confidence to the defence, and Bellingham also put up a splendid game. Boon of course was peerless, while Phillips, who formerly played with Rat Portage, made a remarkable showing for a new man”

A Montreal paper reported: “The Winnipeg defence, to quote from the small boy, was a ‘mark’, even the redoubtable ‘Rod’ Rlett failed to stop that irresistible attack showered upon his citadel”

“Scanlan was the one steady player of the line last night, but he was alone. Gingras was a lamentable failure; while Keane and Cadham were good in spots. Scanlan played a game similar to the fine exhibitions he used to give when he wore a green and grey sweater, and was one of the champions of the world, but his work was lost owing to the failure of his three fellow forwards to help him out, and his gallant rushes were without avail”

“It was a hard task for a man to do [play after the 1,500 train trip], and while Flett, no doubt, played as good a game at point as it was in him to do, the evidence of his lond and tedious journey were only too plain, and when the youth of Magnus Flett failed in front, the experience of the older man was exerted to withstand the press for a while, but then the strain told and in the end he was down and out, so to speak. But even then the strong spirit showed itself, and many a rush was attempted, but nature’s demands were more powerful than those of the spirit and it was all in vain”

“Phillips was most fortunate in making his bow to a senior audience under such circumstances, and it is given to but few athletes to make their initial appearance in the first flight under such circumstances. The game he played fully justified the action of Montreal’s managers in sending him out, and he was a valuable acquisition to the attack last night. He played a strong and fairly fast game, checking well and considering that he was up against the best forward on the ice, Scanlan, he is entitled to due credit for his performance. Hooper and Marshall divided the honors in the centre, each doing yeoman service, and each figured largely in the scoring”

“The Montreal defence was steadiness itself; both Boon and Bellingham playing easily, always looking for the puck. Nicholson was not pressed and did not have a great deal of work to do”

Another Montreal paper noted: “Nicholson, he of the generous outlines, was there whenever he was needed except once. Bellingham at point played a cool, collected game, and Boon, although he did not score, was, as alert, as swift, and as tricky as ever”

“Phillips, the new Montreal man, formerly of McGill and before that of Rat Portage, showed up fairly well”

“Scanlan gave some fine exhibitions of stick handling even at the very beginning and made some beautiful runs, twisting in and out among the opposing players and managing to pass both Boon and Bellingham, but his efforts were always came to naught, and like Marshall, who goes at things like a wild bull, charging with his head down and half the time seeing nothing but the puck, the feet of the men opposed to him, and the bottom of the goalposts, he had some painful mishaps”

“Gingras, Cadham and Kean all made fine efforts at times, but there was no joint play and that spoiled all the good they might have done”

“The two Fletts did a good deal of talking and coaching but at times when it was really necessary to play, seemed bewildered, and lost their opportunities, and incidentally their goals”

“Marshall drew it with his accustomed quickness before the echo of the whistle had well died away”

“Gardner did some good individual work”

“Marshall, as is his custom, drew the puck when the referee’s whistle blew for the first game”

“Boon, however, at this stage of the game was putting up an excellent article of hockey under the prevailing conditions and kept rushing the puck back as fast as the Winnipeg people could bring it down”

Final Score: 8-1 Montreal HC

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham at center, Gingras at RW, and Scanlan at LW

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Gardner at LW, and Phillips at RW

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
MontrealMarshallN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
MontrealMarshall or HooperN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
MontrealGardnerN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
WinnipegKeaneScanlanN/A
MontrealMarshall or GardnerMaybe GardnerBellingham

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 31 January 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Oleson was blocking splendidly and the two Fletts maintained a capable defence. On the forward line Scanlan, GIngras and Cadham were keeping the Montreal busy. Kean was working every minute, but unfortunately showed lack of judgment in his tactics which caused him to spend 5 minutes less than a whole half period on the fence”

“...Gingras, who played a sensational article throughout, banged the rubber into the net”

A Montreal paper reported: “During the overtime, a record was kept of the shots stopped in goal by the men at each end. Oleson stopped ten and Nicholson had two chalked up to his credit”

“There was no doubt that the loss of Gardner was a severe handicap to the Montreal team and there were many who averred that with the big wing man in his place right through the game there would have been a great difference in the scoring. This, of course, is problematical, but there can be no doubt that Gardner’s mishap was a big loss to the team”

“Blachford checked well, but he did not have the same strength as Gardner”

“Scanlan was without doubt the cleanest player on the ice during the two matches, and in addition, was undoubtedly the most finished forward player of all those on the ice. Scanlan went into everything, took his medicine without making any bones about it, and not once, in spite of what must have been pretty severe provocation, did he make any effort at retaliation. It was a creditable record of a good man. Boon, too, also ought to be spoken of in this matter. He played a steady telling game in both matches, and played his game without any resort to unfair methods. The nice play and the effectiveness of this man demonstrates that tip-top hockey can be played without batting opponents to little, just because some one on the side thinks it would be a good sort of game to play”

“However, it is was then that the Flett boys and Oleson came to the rescue, and the excellence of their work save the Victorias from what seemed like certain defeat”

“Hodge is not as good a man as Bellingham”

“Rod Flett showed up in better form then on his first appearance, and Magnes Flett played a steadier game at cover. He was in the game all the time helping out the forwards, backing up and down with the puck, and proved a valuable and useful man”

“The trouble with the Winnipeg forward line was that everybody wanted to play to Scanlan and the latter was altogether too well fed. Then the centre men had a bad habit of butting into other people’s territory and trying to do work that was not expected of them. Cadham is a nice player and held his own pretty well for a small man. Keane is an in and outer, and was good in spots and when he was bad he was as bad as possible”

“On the Montreal line, Phillips, Hooper and Marshall worked splendidly and were in the game all the time. Phillips lived up to the promises he gave of good work and played a steady and consistent game on his wing, and as he was playing on the best man on the ice [I believe this is referencing Scanlan] his work was noticeable. Hooper was up in the scoring line and his goals were neat affairs and well deserved”

“Both goalkeepers deserve a word. Both were pressed hard and Nicholson and Oleson played useful hockey”

Another Montreal paper noted: “The Montreal team would have won if Gardner had not been rendered useless”

“His [Gardner’] knockout, which as far as human judgment can be relied upon, prevented the Montrealers from winning the match is a thing that will never be satisfactorily cleared up”

“Considering this [having played an Intermediate game earlier in the day], Blatchford played magnificently”

“The defence on both sides was wonderful. Oleson, the white-haired boy of the Victorias, played twenty two times better than he did on Thursday, and the two Fletts did not talk, but attended strictly to business. Rod had evidently got over the fatigue of his hurried journey, and Magnus, in addition to holding his position at cover efficiently, did some effective bodying, which must have helped to physically wear out some of the men who came in contact with him”

“Nicholson, for Montreal, took things as calmly as if he were at home, and Hodge played a splendid game, carrying the puck several times close up to the enemy’s goals, and stopping shot after shot that passed Boon, without allowing Nicholson a chance to save”

“Boon, tricky, quick and yet collected, played a careful, steady game, and often left his position, particularly when Gardner was put out of business, to give aid wherever it was needed”

“Phillips played rough, but made some great runs, and it was the result of one of these runs that he managed to score the second goal. Marshall played his usual good, devil-may-care game, and if he did not score he tried hard enough. Gardner was brilliant while he lasted, and when Hooper scored the first point, it was Gardner who assisted him”

“He [Scanlan] played hockey by the book. His play was finished, but it did not have the necessary impetus behind it to make it count”

“Kean would be an admirable player if he would drop his rough and rowdy ways, with which he has made a rather unenviable reputation for himself. Cadham, in size resembling Boon, did some excellent individual work, and Gingras showed some of his old form”

“A curious thing in the early part of the match occurred when John Marshall was ruled off. The human automobile of the Montreal team started to go off but then thought better of it and finally decided to stay on”

Final Score: 2-2 (game ended in a draw due to curfew)

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham at center, Scanlan and Gingras on the wings

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Hodge at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Phillips and Gardner (replaced by Blachford due to injury) on the wings

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
MontrealHooperGardnerN/A
MontrealHooper or PhillipsN/AN/A
WinnipegGIngrasN/AN/A
WinnipegGingras or CadhamN/AN/A

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 2 February 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Oleson in the flags was brilliant. The two Fletts played a star game and formed an almost impassable bulwark in front of the nets”

“On the forward line Kean was at first unsteady, but he got his sea-legs in the second half and thereafter became a terror”

“Gingras at times hung back, but waited his chance frequently and made some individual rushes that were disconcerting”

“The Montreal defence did not play the effective article that it exhibited Saturday, though Hodge probably showed up better. Blatchford seemed somewhat off color, while the others were at about their ordinary”

“Nicholson, in goal for Montreal, stopped very satisfactorily, and his work will bear the closest scrutiny, but in general the visiting team created the impression that it was not much extended and was master of the situation all the time”

“Kean playing a beautiful game”

A Montreal paper reported: “The absence of Gardner was felt and the fact that he was off reduced the value of their attack to some extent, and though his substitute played an excellent game, he was not Gardner, nor did he possess the fine checking qualities of the other man”

“The Victorias played a wonderful defence game, and Oleson should have his name mentioned in the despatches for a distinguished service order. He played a fine game in front of the net, stopping many stiff shots, and he picked out a few puzzling drives in a manner that compelled admiration from friend and opponent alike. The two Flett boys showed that they could go under pressure, and both of them played steadily throughout, and were always watchful and wary. Winnipeg’s victory was won by these three men, rather than the forwards”

“The Montreal defense was certainly a shade off. Hodge played a much superior game to that of Saturday night, but the unity of the defence did not appear to be so well preserved and the Winnipeg scores were made on what looked like easy chances”

“Keane had a particularly aptitude for getting in the road and effectively spoiled many a run [for his team]. But if Keane was a bother to his fellows, he proved extremely useful on the whole, and when he steadied down to serious hockey, he was the whole thing and figured three times in the scoring list. Cadham played a nice game and made a feature of slipping in among the defence men when there was a rush. Marshall on the other side displayed a similar tendency, and both players were warned by the referee and were in imminent danger of being benched. Scanlan, as usual, played a nice game but was not as effective as he was usually along when he went in front of the net, but he was clean and careful and did a lot of hard work. Gingras hung back a lot, depending on a chance for a rush, and he succeeded in getting in some dangerous runs, but failed to locate the net”

Another Montreal paper noted: “Like on Saturday, the defence on either side was great. If Nicholson a hard time of it in the second half, and particularly in the latter part thereof, being left almost entirely alone to guard the goals, Oleson, who in some way or other seemed almost as fleshy as Nicholson last night, had a hot experience in the first half

The two Fletts aided him well, but even with their best endeavors, the shots that were rained in on his stronghold came so swiftly and were so many that he had to use all his wits and all his guinness to turn a number of them aside.

The two goal-keepers were fairly even in their work. The two points would have been equal if it had not been that Rod Flett’s opponent was not his equal as far as physical condition went”

“Hodge did his best, but Rod Flett more than recovered from the fatigue which made him an uncertain quantity on Friday, was perfectly cool and collected, and with his fine well-fitted-out form, his red jersey, his white well-fitting knickerbockers, and his long black stockings, which in the distance through the haze that prevailed looked almost like long-legged boots, and with his immaculate white gauntlets, he looked like Life Guard in undress uniform”

“Magnus Flett, who also played a beautiful game had a somewhat similar advantage over Boon, for the latter was compelled at times to play cover point, rover and forward all combined. He certainly is a little wonder. He is not big enough to do any heavy checking, but he is quick enough to prevent any heavy checking being one to him”

“Phillips worked hard and made some great attempts to score, but seemed to run over the puck often”

“Blachford did wonderful work, but he was not sufficiently strong to keep up the pace of the company he was in. Hooper played a steady and careful game, and Marshall, with the bulldog tenacity for which he has become noted, and with his careless rushing in where more careful fellows would fear to go, managed to score”

“Little Cadham, Gingras, Kean, who seemed to have undergone a change of heart and to have taken a pledge to try and give up knocking out other people, although at times the temptation was too strong for him, and Scanlan, who always plays a gentlemanly game, were almost perfect in their work”

“Marshall, with his usual alertness, drew the puck”

“Marshall again had the best of the draw”

Final Score: 4-2 Winnipeg

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham at center, Scanlan and Gingras on the wings

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Hodge at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Phillips and Blachford on the wings

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A
WinnipegScanlanN/AN/A
MontrealMarshallPhillipsN/A
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A
MontrealMarshall or PhillipsN/AN/A
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 4 February 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: quoting the Montreal Herald- “While Phillips was the star of the ice, Montreal’s other three forwards were in great form. Hooper did not figure in the scoring, but was effective as if he had. He worked in close and placed the puck for the others to shoot. But his best work was the way he fell back on the defence, and time after time broke up the Vics.’ attack. Towards the end he played second cover point and was as sure as he could well be. Marshall, too, did great work in centre. Smith did not show up much in attack, but he was doing good work by keeping Scanlan out of the play and justified the change in the team. The weakest part of the Montreal team was the defence; Boon played a corking game and Bellingham was good, too. They did not work any too well together at times. Poor lifting and looseness in clearing made it look very dangerous more than once. Perhaps next to Phillips honors go to Kean. In spite of his disgraceful attack on Phillips at the end of the match, and his generally rough tactics, it must be admitted he is a player any team should be proud of. He has speed and is as strong a skater as there is playing to-day. He is a heady player and was dangerous till the gong had actually sounded. The other three were not in the same class. Scanlan was held down by Smith till within ten minutes of time, when Smith tired and onl then did Scanlan get in those brilliant runs of his which the Montreal crowd know so well. Gingras was no match for Phillips. Cadham played a fine game before he had to retire with an injured ankle. Dan Flett, who took his place, was of little use, except in body work, and he is certainly a peach at that”

“The Montrealers made some changes on their line up which proved beneficial. Bellingham was on at point in place of Hodge and Smith took Blachford’s place on the forwards. The latter division of the Montreal team put up a good article but the defence did not appear any too brilliant”

A Montreal paper reported: “The Montreal team did well by putting Smith on. He did not figure in the scoring, but he did a lot of good, steady checking, and kept Scanlan busy. Phillips went over to Gingras’ side and performed excellent service there. The presence of Bellingham was a distinct improvement to the team, and there was a finish about his play that was always encouraging”

“Winnipeg was unfortunate in losing the services of Cadham near the end of the first half, as Dan Flett, who replaced him, though a big man, was not by means the good player Cadham was”

“Phillips made another of his wonderful runs”

Another Montreal paper noted: “‘Dicky’ Boon, the wonderful little captain of the Montreal team…”

“He [Cadham] is a bright little man; a clever little player, and although Montreal will swear by Boon, his pluck and his good performance on the ice will always be remembered when this series of wonderful Stanley CUp matches is spoken of”

“He [Keane] is a fine player, and it seems strange that a man like he, who has sufficient ability to help win a match by mere good play should continually lay himself open to that sort of thing [he was kicked out of the game near the end]”

“Phillips proved himself a coming star last night. With a little more care, and a little more finish he will become one of the most brilliant players seen here. He played on a side of the team to which he is an utter stranger, and if it had not been for that, he would probably have scored much oftener”

“Every man did his duty, and Smith, who was probably the weakest as far as general condition went, did what was expected of him, and kept Scanlan from doing any effective work”

“Nicholson in goal, Boon at cover, Hooper, Marshall and Phillips on the forwards, all did wonderfully last night, and Bellingham, considering that he has been under the weather, played a really brilliant game”

A scoring table for the series was provided:


NameTeamGoals
MarshallMontreal7
HooperMontreal5
KeanWinnipeg5
PhillipsMontreal3
GIngrasWinnipeg2
GardnerMontreal1
ScanlanWinnipeg1

Final Score: 4-1 Montreal

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham (replaced by D. Flett) at center, Scanlan (LW) and Gingras (RW) on the wings

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Phillips (LW) and Smith (RW) on the wings

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
MontrealHooper or MarshallN/AN/A
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A
MontrealPhillipsN/AN/A
MontrealPhillipsN/AN/A
MontrealMarshallHooperN/A

Series Totals
NameTeamPositionGoalsAssistsPoints
Archie HooperMontreal HCRover516
Billy Keane (Kean)Winnipeg VictoriasRover505
Jack MarshallMontreal HCCenter303
Tommy PhillipsMontreal HCWing213
Jimmy GardnerMontreal HCWing112
Fred ScanlanWinnipeg VictoriasWing112
Tony GingrasWinnipeg VictoriasWing101
William BellinghamMontreal HCPoint011
Maybe GardnerMontreal HCWing011
Hooper or MarshallMontreal HCN/A202
Cadham or GIngrasWinnipeg VictoriasN/A101
Gardner or MarshallMontreal HCN/A101
Marshall or PhillipsMontreal HCN/A101
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,883
2,509
I do not have any problem with extrapolating what we don't know using what we do know. The best thing we can assume is that all those unknown goals can be proportionally attributed to the players on the team, and MacDougall would be the greatest beneficiary of that.
Alright, I took a stab at projecting out the scoring tables by proportionally attributing the unknown goals to the players at the top of the tables. It would be a miracle if I got through the two seasons without any errors; all numbers were compiled in good faith, but there is a good chance I made a mistake there somewhere. I'll be happy to correct anything as it is pointed out. I've worked it into my word file/post from last week (added at the bottom)-

Robert MacDougall
I was hoping to be able to do a much more in-depth review of MacDougall (also referred to in the papers as McDougall), but life got in the way this week. Long story short- MacDougall was the best scorer on the best team for a good amount of time. Like a lot of other players from the era, it looks like his exit from hockey wasn’t due to declining skill, but rather MacDougall just moving on; I’ll point to the 1899 season as evidence here, as MacDougall put up 8 goals and 1 assist in just 2 season games (and, actually, those all came in one game) and another 2 goals and an assist (and a split-credit goal) against the Winnipeg Victorias in 2 Stanley Cup Challenge games (the Montreal Victorias won both, and MacDougall was arguably the reason for the victory in the second game, though not for his scoring prowess; he injured one of Winnipeg’s better players, Tony Gingras, with a brutal-sounding slash).

A selection of quotes (mostly in chronological order, but not always)-
“Davidson, McDougall and Capt. Grant of the Vics were conspicuous for their good work”

“Davidson and R. Macdougall played a superb forward game for the Vics., their dashes seeming irresistible”

The Montreal papers greatly lamented that McDougall was unable to play this game, saying that the Vics’ “will have a very hard row to hoe if he is not soon able to take his place on the team”, and saying that his absence negatively impacted the combination play among the forwards. The Vics’ defenders were also not up to their usual abilities.

“Vics were short of the services of Bob MacDougall, and that may help to account for their defeat”

McDougall was described as “doing great work, but of no avail”.

McDougall makes “one of his noted rushes up the ice” and scores

Shirley Davidson, Macdougall and Drinkwater were in good trim and played well

“MacDougall and Grant were seeming to do all the aggressive work for their side”

A Montreal paper described McDougall’s rushes as “famous”

McDougall goes on “one of his great rushes”

“The Vics won by their superb and utterly unselfish team play. Nearly every goal of the seven they took was made from splendid passes from the wings to the centre, where McLea or McDougall was always ready for the puck”

“McLea, Macdougall and Davidson played a rattling game”

“MacDougall and Grant were seeming to do all the aggressive work for their side”

“Macdougall’s snaky runs and some of McLea’s shots were very serviceable indeed”

“The Victoria’s played their usual combination game, but the major part of the forward game was done by Macdougall, who was in fine form”

“the forwards did not play the combination game that one expects from men like MacDougall, Davidson and McLea”

“Shirley Davidson, Bob Macdougall, McLea, and Drinkwater worked unceasingly and kept up a continual attack that told in the end”

“Bob Macdougall did all the hard work of the line, and when he went down toward the enemy’s goal it was always safe to prophesy trouble for the other people”

“Bob Macdougall was in fine fettle, and played a superb game”

“McDougall, on the forward line, and Grant and Drinkwater, and point and cover, were in perfect fettle and invincible”

“On the Victorias there did not seem to be a weak spot, and Davidson and Bob McDougall certainly played star games on the forward line”

“Drinkwater should make a great point. McLea and Bob McDougall are both well known to the Winnipeg men. McDougall, in shape, McCulloch considers the best forward playing. Cam. Davidson and Bowie are new men”

‘Bob’ McDougall of the Montreal Victorias was the most talked about hockeyist in Canada this week, consequent upon his fouling of Gingras. McDougall is the oldest player on the forward line, and one if its stars”

“MacDougall’s runs and Drinkwater’s checking were features of this part of the game”

“The Vics missed the reliability of MacDougall”

“One man was looked after in great style, and that was Bob Macdougall. Whenever Macdougall got into the vicinity of the Winnipeg goal, something happened that spoiled his chances. He was either sandwiched, or bodied, or his stick went flying into space, but whatever it was he got but slight chance to distinguish himself. But for all that he managed to be on hand at all times and got around in time to score one of the goals”

“ Bob McDougall was a disappointment, but it is hardly his fault, he has not had very much practice”

“Bob McDougall, another Montrealer born, is only 20 years of age. He is 5 feet 6 ½ inches and weighs 158 pounds… but in the meantime he is putting up just such a game of hockey as the gods delight to see. He is quick as a flash, and is very sure footed. His shooting is accurate and he perhaps scores more often in a season than any man on the Victoria team. He has played for three years with the seniors, and has always retained his place on the team”

“McDougall made the star run of the match”

“MacDougall of Montreal is playing a star game”

Scoring Tables (not counting the points that are disputed)
1894 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
T-1Bert RussellOttawa HC8412
T-1Haviland RouthMontreal HC8412
3Dolly SwiftQuebec HC9211
4Chauncey KirbyOttawa HC549
5Billy BarlowMontreal HC6187
T-11Robert MacDougallVictorias404

1895 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Haviland RouthMontreal HC15116
2Robert MacDougallVictorias10111
T-3Graham DrinkwaterVictorias8210
T-3Archie HodgsonMontreal HC5510
5Dolly SwiftQuebec HC819

1896 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Robert MacDougallVictorias11112
2Dolly SwiftQuebec HC8210
3Alf SmithOttawa HC628
T-4Pat DoyleQuebec HC527
T-4Graham DrinkwaterVictorias527
T-4Shirley DavidsonVictorias437
T-4A.D. ScottQuebec HC437

1897 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
T-1Clare McKerrowMontreal HC11112
T-1Robert MacDougallVictorias10212
T-1Billy BarlowMontreal HC9312
4Ernie McLeaVictorias7411
5Alf SmithOttawa HC819

1898 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Clare McKerrowMontreal HC11415
2Desse BrownShamrocks10010
T-3Howard HutchisonOttawa HC909
T-3Graham DrinkwaterVictorias819
T-3James GIllespieQuebec HC639
6Robert MacDougallVictorias718

1899 (CAHL) (only played two games)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Harry TriheyShamrocks16016
T-2Clare McKerrowMontreal HC10010
T-2Cam DavidsonVictorias5510
T-4Robert MacDougallVictorias819
T-4Chauncey KirbyOttawa HC549

Scoring Tables (counting disputed points; split points worth .5 (or .33) points, maybe points given full credit but not added to goals or assists)
1894 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Bert RussellOttawa HC9.5413.5
2Haviland RouthMontreal HC8.5412.5
3Dolly SwiftQuebec HC10212
4Chauncey KirbyOttawa HC6.83410.83
5Billy BarlowMontreal HC718
T-10Robert MacDougallVictorias505

1895 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Haviland RouthMontreal HC17.5118.5
2Robert MacDougallVictorias11112
3Graham DrinkwaterVictorias9.5211.5
T-4Dolly SwiftQuebec HC9111
T-4Norman RankinVictorias9211

1896 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Robert MacDougallVictorias12114
2Dolly SwiftQuebec HC8.52.511
3Shirley DavidsonVictorias6.174.510.67
4Alf SmithOttawa HC7.33210.33
5Chauncey KirbyOttawa HC34.59.5

1897 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Billy BarlowMontreal HC10315
T-2Clare McKerrowMontreal HC12.5113.5
T-2Robert MacDougallVictorias10.5213.5
4Ernie McLeaVictorias7.54.512
5Alf SmithOttawa HC10.34111.34

1898 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Clare McKerrowMontreal HC11416
T-2Desse BrownShamrocks10010
T-2Robert MacDougallVictorias8210
4Howard HutchisonOttawa HC9.509.5
5Graham DrinkwaterVictorias819

1899 (CAHL) (only played two games)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Harry TriheyShamrocks17.5018.5
2Cam DavidsonVictorias7513
3Clare McKerrowMontreal HC11011
4Russell BowieVictorias10.5010.5
5Robert MacDougallVictorias819

I don’t know about you all, but this kind of takes the shine off of MacDougall’s scoring prowess- by what I’ve been able to piece together from the primary sources, Robert MacDougall was actually only able to lead the league in total points once over the length of his career. Now- and I think this is important- the amount of goals that were scored without a listed goal scorer really hurts the Victorias’ players here. During this time period, I believe that I’m missing the following quantity of goals per team (team not listed means I think I have them all). 1897 and 1898 in particular hurt MacDougall, and I believe that it is quite likely that MacDougall would have scored a decent amount of those 39 goals… but until we come across more sources, we won’t really know for sure.

1894
TeamGoals with No Known Scorer
Montreal Victorias3
Montreal Crystals1

1895
N/A

1896
N/A

1897
TeamGoals with No Known Scorer
Montreal Victorias17
Montreal Shamrocks5
Quebec HC4
Ottawa HC1

1898
TeamGoals with No Known Scorer
Montreal Victorias22
Quebec HC13
Montreal HC7
Montreal Shamrocks7
Ottawa HC2

1899
TeamGoals with No Known Scorer
Ottawa HC2
Montreal HC1

Scoring tables, if we assign players a proportional percentage of the unknown goals, rounded to the hundredth (first table for each year is without the split credit points, the second table includes them). I am only looking at 1897 and 1898 as they are the only years with a significant amount of unknown goals-

1897 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Robert MacDougallVictorias15.50217.50
2Ernie McLeaVictorias10.84414.84
3Clare McKerrowMontreal HC11112
4Billy BarlowMontreal HC9312
5John DobbyShamrocks8.5919.59

RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Robert MacDougallVictorias16.26219.26
2Ernie McLeaVictorias11.614.515.51
3Billy BarlowMontreal HC10315
4Clare McKerrowMontreal HC12.5113.5
5Shirley DavidsonVictorias3.876.512.37

1898 (AHAC)
RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Clare McKerrowMontreal HC13.85417.85
2Graham DrinkwaterVictorias13.68114.68
3Desse BrownShamrocks13.89013.89
4James GillespieQuebec HC10.88313.88
5Robert MacDougallVictorias11.97112.97

RankNameTeamGoalsAssistsPoints
1Clare McKerrowMontreal HC13.85418.85
2Robert MacDougallVictorias13.68215.68
3Graham DrinkwaterVictorias13.68114.68
4Desse BrownShamrocks13.89013.89
5James GillespieQuebec HC10.88313.88

This is very clearly a fudge, but I think it is a passable one; these numbers make the Victorias’ players look much more like what the contemporary reports make them out to be, and none of it seems terribly out of whack.
 

Dr John Carlson

Registered User
Dec 21, 2011
10,077
4,682
Nova Scotia
Dick Irvin - Pt. 1

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This is the first part of my profile on Dick Irvin. I'll be cutting this up into two or three posts: the first, looking at his amateur career, the second, looking at his pro career, and maybe a third if I feel there's any extra thoughts worth mentioning. I was originally going to write up a big season-by-season recap of his entire career, but quickly realized it would be much too long. This condensed structure should suffice instead.

As stated, this post will look at his amateur career, and that's a problem for our purposes because it's tricky to quantify the differences between amateur and pro level hockey at this time. I think the level of hockey being played in Manitoba in the 1910s was actually quite strong up until the late war years, and the level of hockey in the Saskatchewan league was a touch lower than that of the Big-4, but I'm not going to argue that they were on the same level as the pro game - that's clearly wrong. The level was weaker. And since it was weaker, my belief is that an amateur player needs to be truly dominant in order to be a real candidate for a good placement on this list... and that's why I'm advocating for James Dickinson Irvin.

Though these posts are being written with the intention of building a case for a a player I feel is overlooked historically, the primary goal is that they're informative and enjoyable to read through, particularly in providing a better perspective on amateur hockey of the time. Let's get started!

---

It's important that I lay out some info on amateur hockey in Manitoba during this period, so that we aren't left out in the wilderness while going through his Winnipeg seasons. Here's a look at the hockey 'pyramid' in Manitoba in 1913, which is the first year I looked at in my research, to show an example of a typical pre-war league structure. The first three teams comprise the Senior League of the MHL, which is the topmost level in Manitoba. The second rung is the Independent League, which is where Dick played with the Winnipeg Strathconas, the Monarchs' version of a modern-day minor league affiliate, as a youngster - I point this out now because Irvin's wikipedia page doesn't clarify between these two leagues in his stat section. I won't go into his time in the Independents other than to say that he did light it up as expected.

How strong was the amateur league in Winnipeg during Irvin's time there? Look no further than the list of Allan Cup winners - 5 out of 6 from 1911 to 1916 were Winnipeg clubs. That trend didn't turn the other way until World War I robbed Manitoba of most of its best players.

Below are a few quotes that illustrate the kind of hockey being played in Winnipeg, which saw seven-man hockey with the rover rather than six-man hockey:

“If vigorous, hard-checking stop-your-man-at-any-price, and get-back-if-you-can hockey is attractive, then last night's game touched the very pinnacle of attractiveness. But a rough-and-tumble encounter is not what Winnipeg fans associate with Winnipeg senior hockey. They expect finesse, intricate combination plays, and general teamwork to create the thrills.”

“Despite the fact that so much depended upon last night's game, it was wonderfully clean. That's how Winnipeg fans want their hockey purveyed.”

[Longtime defenseman Clem Loughlin on the 1916 NHA playoffs] “There is nothing to six-man hockey... They keep changing players about every 10 minutes. Professional net guardians have it on the amateurs by a big margin, but that is about the only department.”

In addition, this newspaper clipping is an interesting read, showing the amateur hockey enthusiast's perspective on a professional exhibition game.

As for his Saskatchewan seasons, it's mostly the same albeit without as many lower-level teams, and with six-man hockey instead of seven-man rover hockey.

Just a quick aside, as I assume at least some are wondering about this - reading between the lines, I'd say the chance that Dick was being well-compensated for playing in the amateur leagues is roughly 100%. From the 1915 season onwards, teams from both the East and the West come calling for his services every offseason with what are described as lucrative offers, and he turns down all comers. There's even a very dramatic article in November 1915 describing a tense scene at a train station where Dick, who's all set to go to Portland to play professionally, is convinced at the last second to come back home to Manitoba by a group of Winnipeg hockey elites. It's also mentioned that Dick and George Hay are given "nice, soft jobs" in Regina in 1919 to lure them into playing for the Victorias. And on multiple occasions, Irvin tries reinstating for full amateur status to be allowed to play for the Allan Cup, only for his application to be dismissed without consideration.

All this being said, we should now have a baseline for what we're looking at. Without further ado, let's see what we can dig up...

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The Numbers

I said in an earlier post that I think Irvin's greatness goes beyond his numbers, even though he was strictly a scorer, but I want to start off with these to get them out of the way because they aren't as easily accessible as the stats for the WCHL, WHL, and NHL during his pro career. Below is a table containing the cumulative point leaders for the 1914, 1915, and 1916 seasons in Winnipeg, which were the first three seasons Irvin played full-time in the Senior league. Note: the 1914 season (which I couldn't find any source for that awarded assists, meaning assist numbers are lower in this table than they should be) was compiled manually by me but the other two years had end-of-season tables printed in the papers, which I used.

PlayerGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
Dick Irvin2062769
Stan Marples24242044
Dunny Munroe17261036
Alex Romeril1627633
Reg Hay24201232
Guinea Bawlf723326
Jocko Anderson2117219
Brock Henry1014519
Hammy Baker1117017
Francis Caldwell1414317

I compiled these three seasons into one list because mostly the same players participated in each season. Irvin had over double the next best goal total, plus a commanding lead over the next highest point scorer, Stan Marples, who was Dick's linemate, and would play on the Coast for a few years. Who are some of the rest of the names? Alex Romeril was a very good player who never turned professional. Reg Hay was George's older brother. Jocko Anderson would have a long career and win a Cup in 1925. The most interesting name is Guinea Bawlf, who was clearly the best player in Manitoba prior to Irvin's ascension, who never turned pro and stopped playing regularly in 1914. His name was held in very high esteem in the early seasons I looked at as the most dynamic goal-getter in the province. I single him out because of the following quote, from one of the first games of the season in 1914, which gives an idea of how quickly Irvin made an impression in his first full Senior season:

“'Guinea' Bawlf was on the ice in improved form, but they called him Dick Irvin.”

So Dick just crushed the scoring races these years, winning each of them pretty comfortably. But, as has been noted, the competition wasn't great. Other names include Joe Simpson and George Hay, who both played the full 1916 season but didn't play enough in the other two seasons to factor in the table. Frank Frederickson played this entire time period in the Independent League, the next rung below the Seniors. A lesser known player, Clem Loughlin was in the MHL during this time and would enjoy a long and fruitful career In Victoria and play in two Cup finals with the Cougars.

I'll skip 1917 and save it for the post on his pro career. Dick went back to amateur hockey for 1918 because the draft was soon to call, and Irvin was eligible for enlistment, unlike his teammates Loughlin and Marples who were deemed unfit for service and allowed to continue in the PCHA. He played for the Winnipeg Ypres, pronounced and usually referred to as 'Wipers'. Many of the players from previous MHL seasons had gone to the war, and now some of the top scorers were older NHA stars who I assume were also deemed ineligible for enlistment. In a weaker league, you'd expect Irvin to dominate accordingly, and he did. Again, this table was compiled manually by me, so I can't promise there aren't slight discrepancies:

PlayerGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
Dick Irvin929837
Chum Irvin1017623
Spunk Sparrow814721
Harry Scott718119
Morris Goulet811617
Cecil Browne107916
Wilf Loughlin1010414
Walter Smaill910414
Cliff O'Meara106612
Slim Halderson75611

Chum Irvin - as you can guess - was Dick's little brother. We've also got Emory 'Spunk' Sparrow (who I can't recall ever being called Emory, it's always 'Spunk'), who was a pretty good player in the WCHL and WHL, and was noted as a major pest. Harry Scott had some solid years in the NHA prior to this, and would later become the sports editor of the Calgary Herald, providing me with lots of source material for this profile. Walter Smaill has been spoken about in this thread. Wilf Loughlin spent a few years on the Coast as a defenseman. Slim Halderson was a nice player who won Olympic Gold with our friend Frank Frederickson.

Dick went to war in the summer of 1918 and came back to play amateur hockey in 1920 with the Regina Victorias in the Saskatchewan Senior Hockey League, which had dumped the rover in favour of six-man hockey, as Winnipeg was no longer allowing ex-professionals in its amateur league. I'll separate the tables (again compiled manually) for his final two amateur years as I've only got the top 10 in both. Here's 1919-1920:

NameGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
Dick Irvin1234438
Cecil Browne1219322
Stan Marples1212618
Abbie Newell128816
Spunk Sparrow1011213
Fred Wilson1011112
George Hay117310
Fred Barker10718
Harold Bown10707
Reg Hay11527

Abbie Newell was a dynamic defenseman that had trouble staying on the ice. George Hay was getting closer, and was already a good player, but wasn't yet 'George Hay'.

1921:

NameGamesGoalsAssistsPoints
Doc Nagle1622729
Dick Irvin1119423
Spunk Sparrow1316521
Cecil Browne1514519
Rusty Crawford1412618
Stan Marples1510616
Cliff O'Meara1213215
Slim Halderson1612315
Abbie Newell1511314
Charley McVeigh159514

Dick didn't finish first in the league, but only because of a bad shoulder injury early in the year that kept him off the ice for three weeks. Doc Nagle is a player I don't know much of and didn't make a dent in other years I looked at, before or after. Rusty Crawford was a lightning-fast skater who was the linemate of Joe Malone and Tommy Smith on the Bulldogs in the mid-1910s. Charley McVeigh was a skilled forward who'd wind up being a great 'bad team scorer' for the New York Americans well into the 1930s.

After this season, pro hockey came to Saskatchewan, the amateur leagues saw dwindled attendance, and most players - Dick included - jumped ship to the WCHL and stayed professional for good.

So what can we make of Irvin's time in amateur hockey, statistically? Honestly... I don't know. As has been said, competition was inconsistent at best. The expectation would be that Dick Irvin dominated offensively in these years, and he most certainly did. The only season he didn't lead the league in scoring was 1921, and he would've led in scoring had he played the full 16 games. I guess one comparison we have would be the 1920 MHL season, in which Frederickson dominated the league while Irvin played in Saskatchewan. I don't have the final stats of that season handy but I have a table from before the final set of games, and Frank led the league in scoring by a handful of points over Joe Simpson, with his teammate Halderson in third. Statistically, his lead over the field looked similar to what Irvin had posted against similar competition in 1916, before the war.

In conclusion, Dick Irvin was a scorer who scored much more than anybody else during this time in the MHL, which was the top amateur league in the country, and then in the SSHL. That's about all we can say for certain, so we have to go a bit deeper to find more substance to him.

---

Team Success

This is a little more interesting to me than the numbers. How did Dick Irvin's scoring translate to wins in his prime? We know that his teams later in his pro career were just okay. But what about in amateur hockey?

Here's a quick rundown, again starting in 1914 when he became a full-time Senior player:

1914 - The Monarchs won the Manitoba league in a close fight. Before the season started, the Winnipeg Tribune described the Monarchs as being "consistent losers" ever since they joined the MHL, yet with Dick Irvin at centre they won for the first time. Dick was barred from competing for the Allan Cup, since the Cup trustees didn't like that he had started the year with the Strathconas rather than spending the whole year with the Monarchs. The Monarchs without Irvin lost in the Allan Cup's equivalent of the playoffs.

1915 - The Monarchs dominated the Manitoba league, nearly going undefeated until a leg injury kept Irvin out of the last two and a half games. Beat Fort William, led by Jack Adams, and Edmonton in two-game series to determine who'd play the Melville Millionaires for the Cup. Won the Allan Cup over Meville, with Dick scoring the dramatic Cup-winning goal.

1916 - The Monarchs lost in a two-game playoff against the 61st Battalion, led by Joe Simpson in his first great season, for the Manitoba league title. Dick scored 7 of his team's 10 goals in the series, while the leading scorer of the 61st only had 3. The 61st would cruise to the Allan Cup.

1917 - Playing in the PCHA.

1918 - The Wipers dominated the Manitoba league, putting up a +34 goal differential in 10 games, when the other two teams' goal differentials were -6 and -28. Again barred from competing for the Allan Cup, which didn't allow ex-professionals. Without Irvin, the Wipers would lose to Kitchener for the Cup.

1919 - War.

1920 - The Victorias lost in a two-game playoff series against a strong Moose Jaw team with Hal Winkler, Sparrow, Marples, and Newell. The entire SSHL was barred from the Allan Cup due to rampant ex-professionalism in its ranks. Instead, there was a Patton Cup, competed for between teams from the SSHL and the Big-4 league in Alberta, in this case represented by Duke Keats and his Edmonton Eskimos. There's lots of confusion as to whether the Cup was actually played for, so the following may be inaccurate, but I believe Edmonton refused to play for the Cup against Moose Jaw due to scheduling concerns, and instead toured Saskatchewan for a series of highly-competitive exhibitions, first against Moose Jaw and then against Regina. For what it's worth, Regina won their exhibition against a tired Eskimos team, with Irvin outplaying Keats.

1921 - The Victorias swept the last eleven games of the regular and post-season to win the Saskatchewan league. Dick suffered a leg injury early on in the year and Regina was in the cellar without him. Once he returned, they were unbeatable. An official challenge for the Patton Cup was sent out between Regina and Calgary at the end of March, but I couldn't find a single indication that any games were actually played between the two.

It's pretty impressive. Only two seasons saw Dick and his club not come out victorious, and in both cases it was a playoff loss that did them in. The 1916 loss to the 61st was especially notable because that team was probably the strongest Irvin faced in his entire amateur career, and the game reports are very plain in describing that the reason the Monarchs lost that series was horrible goaltending. Other than those two years, Irvin led his teams to titles. It's really unfortunate that he was only able to compete for the Allan Cup once in his life. The Cup was much more prestigious at this time than it is now, and Irvin's immense star power would've only been amplified had he been given a chance to compete for more Cups.

On each and every one of these teams, Dick Irvin was its star and best player. On some of those teams, it wasn't even close between him and the next best. That ties in with the third section of this post.

---

Quotes

This is where Dick Irvin shines the most. His scoring totals are phenomenal, but it's hard to put into context what they really mean. The records of his teams show that his scoring led to team success year after year, which helps paint a clearer picture. But it's what was said about him and what he meant to his teams that truly sets him apart from anybody else in amateur hockey at the time.

First, I'll provide a sampling of some nice quotes on his playing style. These are all from his time in Winnipeg:

“Dick Irvin knows where the puck should go, as on each rush by a teammate they would all pass to him.” (Jan 1914)

“If Dick Irvin could only keep up steam there would be no telling what the score would be like. He tired the other fellows just as much, being the hardest man to get by.” (Feb 1914)

“Dick Irvin was the star of the game, scoring four of the five goals and the visitors simply could not stop him as time and again he skated through the whole bunch for a score. He took a lot of abuse, Heffernan and Gooch hooking or checking him in an attempt to stop the tricky centre player.” (March 1914)

“Dick Irvin, who has a specialty for pulling games out in the pinch, ended one of his dazzling cork-screw twists, by a beautiful score...” (Jan 1915)

“To Dick Irvin primarily is due the major share of the credit for his victory, as his record of six goals would indicate. His work was sensational, although marred by a tendency to loaf.” (Jan 1915)

“Dick Irvin found Jocko Anderson a tough nut to crack, and although the former Selkirk player held him for the greater part of the game, Dick got in some of his usual wonderful stick-handling stunts and deadly shots.” (Jan 1915)

“In spite of his lagging, Dick Irvin was the best stick-handler on the ice, on one occasion though the centre was a whirling maze of sticks, he worked the puck from the corner right in on the net and scored.” (March 1915)

“Monarchs went into the lead eight minutes later, Dick Irwin stealing the rubber from Dea at centre ice, and skating right through the Eskimo defence.” (March 1915)

“The Monarchs jumped out in front in the race for the A series in the Patriotic Hockey League here last night by disposing of the All-Star Soldiers 8 to 3 in a game filled with thrills... The sensational manipulation of the puck by Dick Irvin, the Monarchs centre, he scoring several goals, was easily the feature of the game.” (Jan 1916)

"Dick was very much in the limelight, but more as a back checker than on the attacking divisions." (Jan 1916)

“Dick Irvine, too, was none the less conspicuous. His playing at centre was lightning fast, and his persistency [sic] in trailing the puck was one of the greatest difficulties in the road to success which the soldiers vainly tried to travel.” (Feb 1916)

“Monarch Star [Irvin] Again Proves Himself Best Shot in Winnipeg Hockey” (Feb 1916)

“Dick Irvin was the most closely checked man in the game and Dick felt the effects when the contest was over... With all the hawk-like watching of the soldiers, Dick managed to get in for three goals.” (Feb 1916)

“The sharp-shooting Dick Irvin put one through the whole defence which bulged the nets...” (Feb 1916)

“In this period, Dick Irvin gave a grand display by bagging three goals, in spite of the close checking of the opposition. Alf Morrison kept right after Dick, and was hammering away at Irvin's stick on every occasion that the Monarch star managed to tally.” (Feb 1916)

“Dick Irvin's performance can be judged by the fact that he scored four goals in spite of the fact that he was checked up at almost every turn.” (Feb 1916)

“Dick Irvin, who had failed to tally at all against the Somme, got 6 of the goals against Vimy, and showed that he is as dangerous as ever, even more capable of making his own opportunities than ever before... (Jan 1918)

“Dick Irvin demonstrated that he is a 'wizard' both on the steel blades and with a hockey stick by starring in an individual play and engaging the whole forward line of the Somme team.” (Jan 1918)

“It was the best game of the season... Dick Irvin's display of stick handling, to many, was the best he has shown on local ice.” (Jan 1918)

“Heavy mixing and slashing abounded, but evading the hand-to-hand conflict, Dick Irvin essayed a solo act and completely fooled Morrison to notch the fourth counter for his brigade.” (Jan 1918)

“Scott saved another almost certain goal from the 'wizard' weapon of Dick Irvin...” (Jan 1918)

“Dickinson Irvin, sharpshooter extraordinary, tallied six goals out of seven for his team in last night's important Senior Military hockey game... It was the wonderful stick handling and powerful shooting powers of Dick Irvin, the cleverest centre player in hockey today, that proved the undoing of the Sommes, as Dick contrived to linger offside, seldom going back past centre and when he grabbed the puck there was always trouble for the opposing defence.” (Jan 1918)

“Some fans keep asking why doesn't some one get Dick Irvin and slow up his goal scoring. The answer is simple. Dick is too clever for 'em.” (Feb 1918)

“Dick Irvin showed his class in the game on Tuesday night, getting six out of his team's seven goals. When Dick goes on a rampage it is impossible to stop him.” (Feb 1918)

“Dick Irvin then starred with a brilliant piece of work in which he carried the rubber all through the opposition to bulge the nets.” (Feb 1918)

These quotes paint a picture of a player with deadly stickhandling and shooting, with enough speed to be able to rush the length of the ice through the defense. We have some mentions of his loafing, which I actually don't think is a huge problem in Winnipeg because the Monarchs used a three man defense with their rover hanging back at nearly all times.

Now for some quotes about his playing style in Saskatchewan, which portray him in an even more favourable light:

“Dick Irvin, in that easy, unworried style of his gave evidence that his skill at finding the net is unimpaired. At any angle and with a velocity simply marvellous, he shoots, and when Dick shoots, well, you can have your throat all cleared to yell.” (Dec 1919)

“Dick Irvin's shooting ability was the object of much concern by the Millermen and he was a marked man from the start. Dick was checked as close as it could possibly be done and despite this he got into the scoring column. Whenever Dick got the puck the Millers started an exodus in his direction.” (Dec 1919)

"Irvin scored two goals and his stick handling through the Saskatoon team was a thing of beauty and a joy forever. He showed his hockey ability and what he can do under fire. Dick didn't look to be travelling fast, but that elusive way he has makes him a dangerous an indeed.” (Dec 1919)

“Dick Irvin was all over the place, and is worthy of all the praise that it is possible to hand out. He is fast, clean, and a clever stick handler, and has real hockey ability and brains. Time after time he went through the entire Saskatoon line without assistance. The fact that four of the seven goals are credited to him is proof enough of his ability.” (Jan 1920)

“Dick Irvin never scintillated more brilliantly than he did tonight and his machine-gun shot was working in excellent fashion, as witness his five goals. Dick was a holy terror not only to the Saskatoon defence but also to the forward line, and the manner in which he stickhandled his way through the opposition and got goals was well worth seeing.” (Jan 1920)

“Dick Irvin played a swell game while he was on the ice. His stick-handling was a thing of beauty and his work on the attack was also good. Then again he back-checked like a field all through the game. Dick didn't get as many goals as is his wont, but the Saskatoon players know what he is on the offensive and watched him closely. During the game he accounted for two goals and passed once to Hay, when the latter scored, but his work on the defence was sensational all through.” (Jan 1920)

“Dick Irvin played the best game of the season last night and he was the star player on the ice. He scored the first three goals for his team, also the last, and assisted in the scoring of another. His work throughout was wonderful and he checked like a fiend throughout. Dick was apparently impossible for the Mill City men to stop; and the manner in which he made the first three goals came as the result of wonderful stick-handling and head work.” (Jan 1920)

“Dick Irvin was the star for Regina and it was no fault of his that Regina didn't win. When Dick had the puck the danger signal was hoisted in the Moose Jaw team and they all set upon him hammer and tongs.” (Jan 1920)

“Irvin, as usual, starred, though he was carefully watched, while Traub was as dangerous as any man on the ice. Irvin was a little inclined to loaf and as the game progressed without the judge of play checking him up for this fault, he became worse.” (Jan 1920)

“Dick Irvin has demonstrated that, outside of Crawford he is about the fastest thing on skates seen in these parts, and as a finished hockey player is hard to equal.” (Feb 1920)

“Irvin had a short rest during the session and when he came back on endeavoured to make up for his holiday and shot so many times that no one could keep track of them. The speedy Vics' centre certainly demonstrated why he was wanted on the coast this season, and made all hands hustle.” (Feb 1920)

“[Irvin] played a strong and tricky game, and was responsibly for seven goals. The shot that the former Winnipeg star packs with him is something to be feared, and it generally calls for fast work on the part of the opposing goalkeeper.” (Feb 1920)

“Dickenson Irvin was watched as close as a cat watches a mouse. From the sidelines it seemed as if the Millers had orders to keep Irvin from scoring, and the fact that he did get one goal, despite these barriers, is only another feather in his cap so far as his ability to sink that punk goes. It was his goal, the third, which proved the winning one, and he battled it in from a scramble from in front of the nets.” (Feb 1920)

“Dick Irvin made a lone rush and out-generalled both defence men to flip one of his famous back-hand shots into the net.” (Feb 1920)

“For Regina, Dick Irvin was easily the star. He not only scored the first two goals, but he carried the puck more than any other man on the ice and rained well directed shots upon Winkler.” (Feb 1920)

“For the Regina team, which did not admit defeat until the bell sounded the end of the game and which fought like lions at bay, Dick Irvin... played his very soul out for his team to win. He made it look, in the very first few seconds, that he would pull the championship out of the fire, for in 11 seconds, by as brilliant a piece of play as has ever been seen on any sheet of ice in Saskatchewan, he scored the first goal and tied the series for the time being. Moose Jaw always knew that Dick was dangerous, but when they saw that he was to be double dangerous tonight, they decided to check him to the last ditch. After this whenever Dick got the puck, which happened frequently, the Moose Jaw team had more than one player on him. This consistent hammering on Dick made it hard for him, but he was just as dangerous at the end of the game as he was when it started. No person ever saw a player work harder for his team to win.” (Feb 1920)

“For the Vics, Dick Irvin again showed himself the peer of all forwards. It is very doubtful if there is another man on either team who could keep up for fifty eight minutes such a strenuous game as Dick played last night. He was watched and worried every minute of the time and was off only two minutes in the whole hour. Dick must be built like a steel bridge to stay with it and he required just as much attention from the Leafs at the end of the game as at the beginning.” (Feb 1920)

“Dick Irvin had a field day throughout the match. His stickhandling was beautiful to see and he gave Renaud the flying Frenchmen an anxious evening. Dick scored two of the half-dozen goals and assisted on two others. His machine-gun shot was right in order and all his drives were aimed straight for the net." (March 1920)

“Dick Irvin, working in the centre position for the Vics, distributed the puck in such a way that the Crescent defence was working overtime most of the first and second periods." (Feb 1921)

“Irvin was practically the whole of the formidable line, and was always dangerous. He has a habit of loafing offside which comes in mighty handy at times, and he used this habit to great advantage last night. His rushes, which were always in combination with the other members of his line, were generally good enough to sweep aside all opposition and beat Winkler out. In addition he was all there when it came to backchecking, his work in this particular branch of the game being super-excellent. As long as Irvin was on the ice the Vics had little to fear, and it was a noticeable fact that the Crescents scored all their goals when Irvin was off. Whenever he was subbed there was a noticeable lack of confidence in the forward line, but once he came on again they regained their old-time 'pep'.” (Feb 1921)

It's clear to me that by 1921, Irvin had not lost any of his ability compared to the form he showed in the mid-1910s when he hit his stride in the Senior league. In fact, the game reports are even more glowing when describing his shooting, stickhandling, and increasingly his skating, which is an area he appeared to have improved as time went on. There are more reports of loafing, and I'm curious about the quote above where in the same paragraph he's criticized for loafing while also praised for backchecking. I know loafing was actually called as a penalty in hockey around this time, but it's never been entirely clear to me what loafing actually entails. Is it hanging around near the goal mouth or hanging around centre ice while the other team is on the attack? Either way, his loafing didn't hurt his teams' chances much, if the game reports are to be believed, as that habit is often spun around and described as being used to his advantage.

What I think is most strong about the praise Irvin receives in this period is how valuable he is to his teams. Papers outright state that the teams he plays for would not be nearly as dangerous without him, and there's loads of quotes on that. The following are a mixture of quotes from either when he missed games due to injury, illness, or amateur rules, or just papers remarking on his value when he has particularly strong games:

“The Monarchs seem to be favourites for the Winnipeg game, despite the fact that they are seriously weakened by the absence of Dick Irvin, their star centre.” (March 1914)

“On account of the mix-up over Irvin, whose absence would greatly demoralize the Monarch attack, the betting has been about even but most of the fans favor the Monarchs.” (March 1914)

“With Dick Irvin back in the line-up the Monarchs showed a wonderful improvement over their Allan Cup form...” (March 1914)

“When the Allan cup trustees barred Dick Irwin, the Winnipeg Monarch centre player, they practically handed the Allan cup to Regina Victorias, if the form he showed tonight against the Toronto R. and A. A. is a sample of his regular form.” (March 1914)

“Dick Irvin met with an accident early in the fray which slowed him considerably, and he finally asked to be allowed to retire in the second session when he saw the tide going against his team... Monarchs' main weakness was noticeable forward, where combination was a dead letter. The line was obviously disorganized. Their weakness allowed a tremendous amount of work to devolve upon the defence, and it came through the mill creditably.” (Feb 1915)

“Swift and sudden changes were rung in the Monarch line-up, but the team missed Dick Irvin, the pivot. Combination among the forwards was not the finished article it is when he is there to weld the wings.” (Feb 1915)

“The stick handling and shooting of Dick Irvin, who was back in the game after an absence of three weeks, was a treat to watch and though he was bottled up completely in the first half he got going in the second period and scored seven of the 15 goals for his team. It was never better demonstrated than last night that the Monarchs are more or less of a one man team. With Dick Irvin back in the line up they pulled off more stuff than they have shown for many games. Their combination was better and everybody seemed to work with more confidence.” (Feb 1915)

"The [Monarchs] lost the cup last year under adverse conditions when its system was shot to pieces by the loss of Dick Irvin at the last minute by a ruling of the cup trustees." (March 1915)

“'Jocko' Anderson sustained an injury to his collar bone last Thursday which made it impossible for him to stack up against the Allan Cuppers; since then Dick Irvin, star goal-getter of the Monarchs has taken sick and will be unable to play this evening... Dick Irvin's absence from the Monarch line causes a big gap as he is the greatest goal-getter in amateur hockey; this season he has scored twice as many goals as any other player in the league.” (Feb 1916)

“Dick Irvin sure was missed by the Monarchs. Last night's game again demonstrated that Dick is the pivot of the Dominion champs, for without him their attack is completely disorganized. All members of the Kingly Crew worked hard but they lacked the finish around the net.” (Feb 1916)

“Marples played hard at rover, but missed his team-mate, Dick.” (Feb 1916)

“The Monarchs were like a ship without a rudder with Dick Irvin absent.” (Feb 1916)

“[61st goaler] Bobby Morrison had some easy time in the nets in comparison with the other Monarch games when Dick was on the firing line for the opposition.” (Feb 1916)

“With the peerless Dick Irvin back on the firing line, the Monarchs jumped out in front again in the race for senior honors in A series of the Patriotic Hockey league, when they nosed out an 8 to 7 victory over the All-Stars at the Amphitheatre rink last night." (Feb 1916)

“Dick Irvin was back on the Monarch line-up and his presence put the old dash into the attacks of the Allan Cuppers..." (Feb 1916)

“With Dick back on the Monarch line their attack showed more life and the other members played with more confidence. The Hay brothers, Stan Marples and Dick all played well; they were checking hard as well as being dangerous on the offensive.” (Feb 1916)

“What a difference Dick Irvin makes. Four goals out of eight is pretty good going.” (Feb 1916)

"Inability to stop Dick Irvin was the main cause of the Soldiers' downfall, as the demon goal-getter secured four of the eight tallies for his team and assisted in another. If somebody on the All-Star team would have muzzled Dick Irvin the game would have probably went the other way. Dick was the leader in nearly all of the attacks, and the fact that he tallied four times and was the leading actor in that second half rampage which brought the Monarchs victory, shows how valuable he is to his team. " (Feb 1916)

“The team last night was very much Dick Irvin. This peer of goal-getters was checked very closely in the first half, and only in a mix-up managed to notch a goal. But the tricky centre player's ability as a shot was never better exemplified than in the second half. He did not manage to dodge in close on very many occasions, but finding this useless he resorted to clever manoeuvring, and three times in the second half he beat Bobbie Morrison with cannon-like shots from the side and thus scored four of the seven goals and seven out of ten for the series.” (Feb 1916)

“Dick Irvin kept trying hard but his mates were not with him.” (Dec 1917)

“Dick Irvin tried hard to pull the game out of the fire for his side in the second half, but was given poor support. Time and again the brilliant centre player stick handled through three opponents but only to have a fourth rob him of the disc when nearly through. Dick was practically the whole Ypres attack in the last 15 minutes of play; his generally reliable mate, Stan Marples, tired and hung back on the defense when his side needed goals to win.” (Jan 1918)

“The Ypres left most of the scoring to Dick Irvin, and though this slippery player was travelling as fast and was as tricky as ever he found the going pretty stiff, as he has all season against this team, but at that it as a bullet like shot from his attack in the second period that put over the deciding goal. The rest of the players lacked the sting in their shooting and proved easy picking for the strong defence of the Sommes, but Dick got away with two goals...” (Jan 1918)

“The Ypres excelled in what little combination that was attempted, but it was ineffective as unless Dick Irvin happened to have the puck, the shot or pass was generally bad when nearing the danger zone.” (Jan 1918)

“The Ypres without Dick Irvin would be like a man without his eyes trying to curl.” (Feb 1918)

"Fearing that without Dick Irvin they would have a poor chance to win the Allan Cup, the Ypres made application for his reinstatement as an amateur but the application was turned down. Even had it been granted a reinstated professional could not play for the Allan Cup." (Feb 1918)

“It is now reported that Regina is out to build up an Allan cup hockey team this winter and are seeking the services of Dick Irvin, a former pro. Irvin is a team in himself and the fact that he was overseas should intitle [sic] him to reinstatement although so far he has been unable to secure his card in Winnipeg.” (Sep 1919)

“There is going to be some great rivalry between Moose Jaw and Regina, but right now it looks as if Regina got much of the best of it in their selection of players. If Dick Irvin and George Hay play anything like the brand of hockey they put up here before going overseas, they will be worth more than the entire six Winnipeg boys ploying with the Moose Jaw team. Irvin is pretty nearly a whole team in himself...” (Oct 1919)

“The offensive and defensive departments of both teams are evenly matched, but the Leader believes that Dick Irvin cannot be stopped and, with his well-known reputation as a goal-getter, he should be the man to bring victory to the locals.” (Dec 1919)

"Moose Jaw has a well balanced lineup and will take some beating, but Regina should win on their own ice. However, it all depends upon whether Moose Jaw can bottle up Dick Irvin. Usually he is good for five or six goals in a game.” (Dec 1919)

“Fans who called on the phone last night and ascertained the final score were nonplussed at the decisiveness of the Victoria victory. Most fans expected to win, but they did not dream of such an overwhelming victory. When they were informed that Dick Irvin had accounted for five of the seven goals the majority of the exclamations which came over the wire were, 'Good old Dick.'” (Jan 1920)

“The Regina team expected too much from Dick Irvin and while he came mighty near winning the game unassisted, he was always checked by the entire Moose Jaw team when in possession of the puck. That he was able to get two goals and assist in another under thee trying circumstances is proof positive of his ability.” (Jan 1920)

“DICK IRVIN – This sterling hockeyist will be seen in action in the Moose Jaw – Regina game at the Amphitheatre rink tonight. Dick has been prominent in hockey circles for a number of years, and has developed into one of the best centre players in the game today. Reports say that he is going better than ever this year. Although Regina failed to cop the championship, it was not the fault of this athlete. His goal-getting ability has been responsible for a large number of Regina's victories.” (March 1920)

“The hopes of the Regina fans present grew low when Dick Irvin crashed full tilt into Binney and was carried off the ice. He was skating too fast to stop. When he returned he was given a loud cheer by the Regina contingent, and this was the signal for danger to Moose Jaw.” (Dec 1920)

“Dick Irvin, star centre ice man of the Regina Victorias, suffered a sprained shoulder in Tuesday night's game at Moose Jaw and will be out of the game for at least three weeks. The injury makes it doubly hard for the local team as they meet Moose Jaw again Monday night. This sadly cripples the capital city team, for Dick sure is the star of their team.” (Jan 1921)

“At the same time it must be admitted that Regina was a weakened team, and when they line up on Friday night they may possibly have their old reliable star, Dick Irvin back on the job. His absence, it has been admitted, has made a powerful lot of difference in the team, which would seem to indicate that if he is on the job again soon, the Crescents may get a rougher reception than they did on their last trip to the Capital city.” (Jan 1921)

“It was conceded by everyone at the start of the season that Regina would have a might hard team to beat, a team as good as the team of 1920 or better. Through injury to Dick Irvin, who is half a team himself, and trouble with the paid coach of the team, Regina made a poor showing in the early part of the season... When Dick Irvin returned, Regina showed fifty percent greater strength.” (Feb 1921)

“George Hay appears to be coming to the front in hockey circles. He figured in two of the goals... While Dick Irvin was once more the king-pin of the Regina aggregation, taking care of the play to the discomfiture of all.” (Feb 1921)

“It is said that one man doesn't make a hockey team, but take it from us, that man Dick Irvin sure helped put the Vics back in the running for the championship. It was mainly due to him that the Crescents experienced such a crushing defeat last night. If you don't believe, think it over.” (Feb 1921)

“From the showing made last night, the Vics look like the 1921 champions. Their form with Irvine on the lineup is superb and as a scoring machine they leave little to be desired." (Feb 1921)

“The Vics certainly have a great team with Dick Irvin as the king pin. Without this star centre they would be at a loss for scoring. In this respect Saskatoon fell down. They did not appear to have a man that knew how to find the vacant places in the net and it was because of this that they failed to run up a bigger tally.” (March 1921)

“High hopes are entertained in this city that the Vics will be allowed to compete for the Allan Cup this season. The feeling here is that if Wes Wellington [who?] could play in a national competition, so also can Dick Irvin. With Irvin on the lineup, the Vics would feel certain of lifting the cup.” (March 1921)

It was partially because of finding some of those quotes that made me dive deep into Irvin's profile... year after year the papers describe Irvin as being exceptionally valuable to his team because of his dominant scoring ability. Other players in amateur hockey weren't seeing this kind of praise.

Finally, I want to end this post with general quotes about Irvin's standing among players in the country, along with a few other glowing remarks that emphasize his star power:

“Lester Patrick, coast professional hockey magnate is after Dick Irvin, the Monarch centre, who netted the nine goals against the Torontos on Wednesday and intimated that a gold lined contract would be waiting for him next fall. Irvin is said to have been non-committal as to the offer.” (March 1914)

"Dick Irvin, as usual, was peerless as an attacking force.” (Jan 1915)

“Baldy Lynn, the human cannonball, was the hero of the game, and made the famous Dick Irvin look slow.” (March 1915)

"Dick Irvin, the muchly-touted centre forward, lived up to advance notices and is a dangerous man in front of the net." (March 1915)

“Manager Ed Savage of the Rosebuds has his strings out for Dick Irwin, the star Winnipeg senior. If he gets him he gets the class of prairie hockey... Savage has lit on the finest prospect in the field in Irwin, at that, and it is to be hoped he hooks him." (Oct 1915)

"Dick Irvin, the stellar centre player of amateur hockey, is the athlete whose name has been connected with several stories in regard to joining the professional ranks." (Oct 1915)

“Dick Irvin's wonderful goal-getting ability has been widely known during the past two years and he has received other tempting offers to join the pro. ranks.” (Nov 1915)

“Tommy Murphy [sic], goal, Alex Irvin, point and captain, and Dick Irvin, the best centre player in amateur hockey, are the members of the Monarch Hockey club of Winnipeg, who will accompany Tommy Dunderdale tomorrow night for Portland to take part in the Cost [sic] league this winter... The local lads are all premier players, and should have no difficulty in making good at the coast. If Dick Irvin shows the form that he has displayed in amateur ranks for the past two years he should soon become very popular, as he is a goal getter of the finished brand." (Nov 1915)

^ note that this is the season in which the Irvins decided at the last minute not to play on the Coast.

“... Dick Irvin has the reputation of being one of the finest centre ice men ever developed in the 'Peg.” (Nov 1915)

“That Wanderers are making strenuous efforts to strengthen their forward line is indicated today by two announcements. One comes from the club headquarters, to the effect that Dick Irvin, the sensational Winnipeg amateur, eagerly sought by the Patricks, has been approached by the Wanderers, and practically consented to sign a Wanderer contract.” (Jan 1916)

“The victory would have been sweeter had the redoubtable Dick Irvin been on the defeated team..." (Feb 1916)

“With time nearing an end, Monarch fans pleaded for Dick to score, and the elusive centre man came through with the goods by grabbing a loose puck and shooting in a low one." (Feb 1916)

“DICK IRVIN: Peerless centre player of Monarch team who scored seven goals in the championship series while being checked at every turn.” (Feb 1916)

“Hockey Honors These Players:
Dick Irvin – Monarch centre player. Best goal-getter in amateur hockey circles.
Joe Simpson - 61st Battalion coverpoint player, who is famous for his corkscrew rushes.” (March 1916)

“The Monarchs will have their regular line-up including the celebrated Dick Irvin, who astonished Toronto fans a couple of years ago by scoring nine goals against the OHA champions.” (March 1916)

“DICK IRVIN, as good as the best, if not the best hockey player in Canada, will play with the Military hockey league of Winnipeg this year.” (Nov 1917)

“[Vancouver fans] want another good forward to help out MacKay and Taylor, and Frank Patrick would like to give them one, but where to find one is the problem. Good forwards are scarce. Dick Irvin would look good here and the local magnate would like to get him and has made him an offer, but Irvin can not come. If there is any other player who can bag goals there's a life job for him in Vancouver.” (Jan 1918)

“Dick Irvin was again the big cause of the Ypres success. The brilliant centre player again demonstrated that he is head and shoulders above any puck chaser in this part of the country by dodging in on the opposing defence for 6 tallies.” (Feb 1918)

“Chum Irvin is coming ahead right along and is now working in well with Dick. The 'Centre King' gave another one of his brilliant displays, keeping the opposing defence on the jump all the time with his stick handling and wizard shooting.” (Feb 1918)

“Dick Irvin, the sensational Portland hockeyist of last year, and whom Frank Patrick states as one of the best bets ever seen in coast hockey, is playing bang-up hockey in the Winnipeg Military league this year, and is so far ahead of his other rivals in scoring records that it will take a fast mail express to catch him. Talking to Barney Stanley last year in Calgary, Barney informed the writer that for sheer gameness and pluck together with stick-handling ability Dick had them all beat. He stated that when young Irvin went to the coast he was by no means ladylike, but through it all he never squealed, and came back game after game as strong as ever. This is what placed him in such high esteem with the coast fans. Irvin is class A2 in conscription, and thereby hangs the tale why he is no delighting coast audiences this year.” (Feb 1918)

“Ypres and Sommes meet in a Military Hockey League struggle tonight at the Amphitheatre rink at 8:30 o'clock... It is worth the price of admission to see Dick Irvin perform.” (Feb 1918)

“The popularity of Dick and Chum Irvin and Helgy Bostrom, prominent Winnipeg athletes, was never more demonstrated than last night, when a crowd estimated at 2000 assembled at the Union depot to wish them godby [sic] and good luck.” (May 1918)

“Dick Irvin, one of the greatest centre players that ever played hockey and who is now soldiering in England, is a great pet stock lover. Previous to donning khaki he and his brother Chum had a large number of rabbits, pigeons, etc. Dick is greatly interested in the large pet stock farms of the Old Land, and visits them whenever he gets the chance.” (Aug 1918)

“Dick Irvin, perhaps the greatest hockey player that Canada ever produced who is now serving his country in the battlefields of France, has written a letter to Billy Bettschen, secretary of the S.A.H.A., in which many interesting passages appear...." (Nov 1918)

^ the letter, for those curious, not hockey related

“It will be good news to the followers of hockey to know that Dick Irvin, the celebrated puck chaser, is now an amateur. Irvin, who is undoubtedly the best center forward in amateur or pro company, played for the Winnipeg Monarchs for several years... His loss will be a severe blow to Winnipeg, for he was always a big attraction when playing for the Monarchs, and he would have been a big boost to amateur hockey in the Manitoba metropolis if he had played there this winter.” (Oct 1919)

“But Regina, which has always been a great hockey centre, is also out after the Allan cup and has gone ahead and signed up Dick Irvin, recognized as the greatest centre player in pro or amateur company..." (Oct 1919)

The most interesting business of the evening was the re-instatement of James Dickensen Irvin, no other than the famous 'Dick,' former Winnipeg amateur star, who played with the Portland professionals before going overseas. He will remain in Regina, playing with one of the local teams, it is stated.” (Oct 1919)

“Word was received today that Irvin has been reinstated and has accepted a lucrative position in Regina in return for which he will lead an amateur club in that city... Irvin during all his professional career gave promise of developing into an even greater player than Mackay. Both [Irvin and Mackay] had good offers from the Coast clubs, but it is stated the amateur league of the middle west offered better inducements.” (Oct 1919)

“On being shown a dispatch from Regina to the effect that Dick Irvin, former Portland player in the Coast Hockey Association, had been given an amateur card by the Saskatchewan Amateur Union, Lester Patrick, Manager of the Victoria Aristocrats, had little to say. He admitted that he had been angling for Irvin's services ever since he returned from overseas in mid-summer... Lester felt that if he could land Irvin for the Aristocrats, he would have the necessary punch to turn out a world's champion team. With that end in view, he made Irvin a proposition that is said to have been the best ever offered a young player..." (Oct 1919)

“Be it known to all hockey fans that James Dickenson Irvin, otherwise known to the hockey world as 'Dick Irvin' will be the centre ice this winter. Dick needs no introduction and anything we would say would be so much wasted verbiage. He is a wonderful player, a wonderful shot and, moreover, he is a prince and a splendid addition to clean amateur sport in this city. He expected to go into business in this city as soon as a suitable place of business can be rented. It is well worth while for any fan to watch Dick in action at centre ice.” (Nov 1919)

“Dick Irvin, of the Regina Vics, is as good a centre as there is in the game today. Yet Dick Irvin depends on team work to get within shooting distance.” (Jan 1920)

“DICK IRVIN, the stellar centre ice man of the Vics, was in his old-time form last night. Dick made four goals and assisted in another.” (Jan 1920)

“Dick Irvin, the boss scorer of the league, was once more a bright star for the visitors...” (Jan 1920)

“Dick Irvin was on the bench when the game started and when he came on the ice, the fans gave him a great cheer which indicated the hold he has upon the fans of this city.” (Feb 1920)

“Irvin was again the shining star and skated circles around all comers in addition to back checking effectively... Dick Irvin is a power in himself. The Vics are certainly to be congratulated on the work of their peerless centre.” (Feb 1920)

“A wonderful tribute was paid to Dick Irvin by the fans in the final period which, after he had been cut on the forehead and had bled profusely, he was carried off the ice. Few expected that the Regina captain would be back and one can imagine their surprise a few minutes later when the famous goal-getter skated onto the sheet. The crowd cheered him en masse and he kept on playing his regular game. All through the contest, the crowd was with Dick and frequent cries of 'let's go Dick' were heard at various times during the contest.” (Feb 1920)

"Regina has Dick Irvin, one of the greatest centre players who has ever played hockey, performing at centre...” (March 1920)

“Falcons have the best team that the west has ever sent east in quest of the Allan Cup. They are much superior to the Winnipeg Ypres of 1918 or Selkirks of 1919... In Frank Frederickson they have a player of Dick Irvin's calibre – a finished skater, stick handler, and a deadly shot.” (March 1920)

“According to members of the Vancouver team, Frederickson is a finished player, but he lacks the power behind his shots which Dick Irvin possessed. The latter, when he was with Portland, proved one of the best goal-getters in the league. He bored right through any defense and was one of the top scorers. Frederickson, however, is said to be faster and a pretty combination player.” (Jan 1921)

“Regina's hockey teams have flashed forth some stars on the firmament in days gone by, but it is doubtful if ever a satellite shone with such undoubted brilliancy throughout an entire match as did Dick Irvin. He was a tower of strength to the team all through the game. His offensive work was above reproach, while on the defence he was a consistent thorn in the side of the Leafs.” (Jan 1921)

“Dick Irvin, the best goal-getter in hockey, today, scored three for Regina and assisted in another.” (Feb 1921)

“On the forward line two places go by default – Dick Irvin and Rusty Crawford own no peers. Dick Irvin is unquestionably one of the most effective players in the game today and so good a judge as Frank Patrick declares he is without an equal.” (March 1921)

^ This was from an All Star roster mailed in by a fan.

That should be a good case for Irvin's star power being as strong as anyone's in this round, as well as evidence to support that observers, particularly in the Prairies who saw him the most, saw him as a contender for best centre in the world in the late 1910s into the early 1920s. Whether he was or he wasn't is virtually impossible to say, considering he wasn't competing directly against his peers for that title in the best leagues. It's up to the reader to decide how much faith to put into the quotes that hold him in such high regard.

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Now I'll finish up the profile of his professional career, which shouldn't be quite as long, as it was more of a mixed bag, with highs that equal the highs of his amateur career but with lows that need to be addressed as well. Hoping to have it done in the next two days, since we're extending the deadline.
 

Dr John Carlson

Registered User
Dec 21, 2011
10,077
4,682
Nova Scotia
Dick Irvin - Pt. 2

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Now for the second part. This will look at Irvin's professional career. That means the 1916-17 PCHA season, then everything after 1921. I won't bother with his final two years in the NHL, as he was a sub for those years after fracturing his skull in 1927, and was basically done as a player.

I'll start off by looking at his two best professional seasons, in my opinion: 1916-17 and 1921-22.

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1916-1917

As I showed in the first section, Irvin had been sought after by Lester Patrick and the Coast teams for a few years prior to 1916. Finally, once talent in the MHL began to leave for the war, most of the Monarchs decided to finally accept the offers that had been made to them. A strange situation developed, where Patrick argued that since he had been interested in Dick's services in prior years, his 'rights' belonged to him and his new Spokane Canaries squad. However, Rosebuds manager Ed Savage signed Dick instead, along with Stan Marples and Clem Loughlin. Patrick insisted that he would allow Savage to sign them, provided Savage delivered either Eddie Oatman or Moose Johnson to Spokane in return. Savage agreed at first, but then once the season drew closer, he basically told the Silver Fox to screw off - Oatman had joined the military which meant only Moose was left to give up, and he felt he couldn't lose both men and still compete. It was too late, by then, for Lester to do anything, so Spokane didn't receive anything in return for the three Winnipeg boys going south of the border.

To start, here are the numbers from that year:

PlayerTeamGPGAPtsPIM
Bernie MorrisSeattle Metropolitans2437175417
Gordon RobertsVancouver Millionaires2343105342
Frank FoystonSeattle Metropolitans2436124851
Barney StanleyVancouver Millionaires232818469
Dick IrvinPortland Rosebuds2335104524
Mickey MacKayVancouver Millionaires2322113337
Dubbie KerrSpokane Canaries2320113158
Smokey HarrisPortland Rosebuds2318133139
Cyclone TaylorVancouver Millionaires1214152912
Tommy DunderdalePortland Rosebuds2422426141

There was a group of five at the top who were leading the league in scoring pretty much the whole way, and then Taylor was down there in 9th, having missed half the year to appendicitis.

It should be noted that through the first 8 games of the season, Irvin played as a sub. Ed Savage wanted to give Dick a chance to become acclimated to the different rules on the Coast, namely the forward pass. Irvin played in 7 of those games, and still managed to score 11 goals, though without any assists, including a 5 goal game in his last game as a sub. After that, Irvin took over Tommy Dunderdale's spot at C, who was too busy gunning for a new record in PIMs.

Portland was among the league's top teams for through about a third of the season until manager (which usually meant coach) Ed Savage was badly hurt in a car crash. When a fellow named W. F. Scott took over behind the bench, things began going south:

“Any person who watched the tactics of acting-Manager Scott in the last game played between the Millionaires and the Portland Rosebuds in this city, can judge from his remarkable antics that Portland has not got a leader. Since the injury to Manager Savage, they have been handicapped in not having a real leader and naturally they are demoralized. They have been losing steadily and are getting 'peeved'.” (Jan 1917)

“It would seem that the advice of the Portland management is at fault; Manager Ed Savage of the Rosebuds, who is incapacitated and slowly recovering from a bad auto accident, is unable to take active part in the affairs of the Rose City club, at the actions of Acting Manager Scott at the last game in Vancouver did not give the impression that he was capable of giving mature judgment to an affair such as the present.” (Jan 1917)

The season prior, the rover position was held down by Eddie Oatman, who was a very good all-around player. This season, the Rosebuds saw a revolving door at rover, with none of Charley Tobin, Tommy Dunderdale, and Stan Marples able to fill in sufficiently. Perhaps because of this, Tobin relinquished the captaincy about halfway through the year, and Moose Johnson took over. The team was better after this but it didn't translate into enough wins, and the Buds missed the playoff.

As for Dick's performance individually, there are plenty of good quotes that give an idea of the impression he made:

“Professional hockey ranks are again to gain at the expense of the Winnipeg league, because three more star local amateur puck chasers, Clem Laughlin, Dick Irvin and Stan Marples have decided to accept the tempting offers from Mr. Savage and line up with Portland... Of the trio, Dick Irvin is the real star, having stamped himself as the greatest goal getter in the game here today. Irvin's ability to stick handle, dodge in close and shoot accurately was the big reason why Monarchs won the Manitoba senior championship in 1913-14, 1915-16, and why they were right up in the running last season until the final play-off game. In the extra two game series between Monarchs and 61st battalion, Irvin scored seven of the ten goals registered by his team, despite the fact that he was checked hard by two and three men all the time...” (Nov 1916)

“Stan plays his wing well, is a fast skater and has a fast an accurate shot. Dick Irvin is the greatest goal getter playing hockey today and one of the best that ever played in this vicinity. Dick is a fine stick handler and this asset, combined with his ability to shoot from almost any angle, enables him to score often no matter how closely he is checked.” (Nov 1916)

“Sensational work on the part of young Irvin, late amateur, enabled the Portland Rosebuds to defeat Vancouver here tonight 5 to 3. Irvin was shoved into the game in the final period, when Tommy Dunderdale injured his knee, the score standing a tie. Irvin took a pass from Harris and converted, and a little over one minute later secured another one from Tobin, and again netted, cinching the game.” (Dec 1916)

“'Dick Irvin is the greatest forward who ever came into the Pacific Coast League and before the end of the season he will be one of the best players in the country. He's a natural-born goal getter, scores from almost any possible angle, and, what's more, he puts 'em where the other fellow doesn't happen to be at the right moment,' Frank Patrick, president of the PCHA, delivered himself of this great boast about the former Winnipeg amateur upon his return yesterday from Seattle where he watched the Buds trim the Mets, 7-4." (Jan 1917)

“Irvin Plays Great Game for Rosebuds...If Portland's ice hockey players continue to show the dash and vim that they put across the Vancouver Millionaires here tonight, there will be nothing to it but another championship for the Rosebuds..." (Jan 1917)

“The wonderful showing of Dick Irvin, the young Winnipeg player, who has replaced Tommy Dunderdale on the Portland lineup, reveals himself as the most promising youngster who has broken into the game since Mickey Mackay broke in with Vancouver. Irvin sems [sic] to have an unerring instinct as to where to shoot that puck, is all over the ice, and possesses the trained instincts of the stellar hockey player.” (Jan 1917)

“Tommy Dunderdale, who started the season in a pugnacious mood, may have worked himself out of a regular berth in Portland. It begins to look as if Dick Irvin, the former Winnipeg amateur star, will take Tommy's place." (Jan 1917)

“Young Dick Irvin fulfilled all the nice things the advance notices have been saying about him. Right now he looks like the best prospect ever developed in the coast league and this includes the fair Mickey, who has never shown any more class than the 'Peg youngster, although possibly he is faster than the Bud recruit.” (Jan 1917)

“Dick Irvin, the sensational little centre forward of the Portland team, played one of the greatest games of his career and was easily the best man on the ice last night. He started out at a fast clip, and was going strong at the end of the game. He was in every Portland attack and many times took the puck down the full length of the ice, only to miss the shot or else be robbed by the Vancouver defence.” (Jan 1917)

"Dick Irvin proved the star of the evening. He is all that Frank Patrick claims for him, speedy, clever stickhandler and a wonderful shot. Irvin was the hardest working individual on the ice and although he was bodied heavily a couple of times nothing slowed him up." (Jan 1917)

“Irvin's work on the line is probably the biggest surprise of the season for he is just about the greatest little piece of hockey material ever introduced in these parts from the amateur ranks and if he continues to improve half as fast in future games as he has in recent contests, then he will develop into one of the most brilliant forwards the game has ever known.” (Jan 1917)

“If Dick Irvin is the best forward that ever came into the Coast League we have no hesitation in stating that Eddie Oatman was the best who ever went out of it." (Jan 1917)

“Tommy Phillips, perhaps the greatest hockey player that ever put on steel blades, has the following to say about Dick Irvin, whom he saw play recently in Vancouver...

'The first time I saw him work, I formed an opinion that he was a second-rater, but that has been entirely wiped away after witnessing his exhibition last Tuesday night. He handles the puck beautifully. In fact, he's more than an ordinary hockey player at that particular item of work. He's a real artist in that respect. You noticed, no doubt, that when he has the puck, it seems glued to the stick, although all the time his stick is moving from one side of it to the other. That is real art of stick-handling, and Irvin is a genius. Of course, Dick Irvin is no spring chicken, but I figure that if he takes care of himself he's got at least seven years more of hockey in him, and during that time he will make a name that will shine long after he's left the game.'” (Jan 1917)

“Speaking of Dick Irvin, the sensational Peg amateur, [Doc] Roberts says he is the class of the coast league.” (Jan 1917)

[From an article offering mid-season MVP favourites] “Of the Portlanders two players, Johnson and Irvin, are right now to be considered as candidates... Dick Irvin's shooting powers and his unflagging activity on the attack will give him many votes, but his proportion of goals to assists is rather topheavy, marking him as an individual player to a great extent." (Jan 1917)

“Dick Irvin has been relegated to third position [in league points] although he is tied with Moris in the matter of goals. In justice to Irvin, however, it must be said that every team that plays Portland, gives Dick's opponent orders to lay on the former Monarch all night and prevent him from scoring. Let Dick Irvin loose and he will score goals with reckless abandon.” (Jan 1917)

“Dick Irvin, late of Winnipeg and now the most talked of young man in coast hockey circles, is one player who is in the game because he loves the sport of scoring goals... He is playing centre, and playing it so spectacularly that he is touted the real find of the season. He plays clean hockey, too, and has a most deceptive method of wig-wagging his way through the best defences for a shot on the nets... He finds the pro game incredibly faster than the amateur style with much of the roughness eliminated." (Feb 1917)

[From another MVP article]"Frank Foyston, Jack Walker, Bernie Morris, of Seattle, and Dick Irvin, of Portland, are about the only other players on the circuit in line to battle with Mackay for the association's prize, and it looks like a toss-up to select the winner... Walker and Irvin are likely to gain in clean play, but will undoubtedly drop points in other divisions." (Feb 1917)

“Dick Irvin, who usually scores half of Portland's goals, made his only counter after two minutes' play in the second period...” (Feb 1917)

“One of the outstanding features of the season was the wonderful playing of Dick Irvin, the former Winnipeg amateur, who broke into professional hockey in the same sensational manner as did Mickey Mackay, the sterling forward of Vancouver. Despite the fact that the Portland team was in the cellar during a majority of the season, Irvin played wonderful hockey and is listed among the leading goal scorers.” (Feb 1917)

At the end of the season, a composite all-star team was devised by the three league officials, George Irvine, Mickey Ion, and James Seaborn. They voted Morris as top centre... and Dick as top rover! I was flabbergasted by this because I didn't find a single game report that listed Irvin playing rover for the Buds, so I have no idea what to make of it. There was also an all-star team voted on by the sports editors of each city's paper, and Dick was given a vote by the Portland writer. Since it's a Portland writer, I don't put a lot of stock in it.

All in all, it was a very good year for Irvin in his first stint on the Coast. He certainly did his part for the Buds who were undone by poor rovers and poor tactics, and received lots of praise in the process. I think this provides an excellent idea of what Dick was capable of, had he played in the pros instead of the amateurs at the time.

---

1921-1922

After winning the SSHL in 1921, the scourge of professionalism spread to the prairies. After the Big-4 was under fire for allegedly paying players under the table, and after Slim Halderson and Robert Benson, former Olympic Gold medalists were caught accepting payment in the SSHL, the professional WCHL was formed and quickly overpowered the Senior leagues. Dick Irvin originally stayed amateur, continuing with the Regina Victorias, but once the WCHL season began and attendance at Senior games was abysmal, Irvin moved to the Capitals and left amateur hockey behind for good. Here's the scoring from that season, with Dick's 5 missed games due to starting the season playing amateur hockey:

PlayerTeamGPGAPtsPIM
Duke KeatsEdmonton Eskimos2531245547
Ty ArbourEdmonton Eskimos232673322
Bullet Joe SimpsonEdmonton Eskimos2521123315
George HayRegina Capitals252111329
Barney StanleyCalgary Tigers242653117
Dick IrvinRegina Capitals202172817
Art GagnéEdmonton Eskimos201572224
Rabbit McVeighRegina Capitals19156218
Red DuttonCalgary Tigers221652173
Harry OliverRegina Capitals20104147

This was the Duke's big season, where he logged an unprecedented 24 assists in 25 games. He actually got the Irvin treatment in the papers, which is to say that they reported his club as being in a shambles whenever he was off the ice for any reason. The Eskimos' offense was insane and led the league by a huge margin, and the club won the regular season narrowly over Regina and Calgary, who tied for second. Regina had started poorly, being last in the league at the time of Dick turning pro. They played much better once he arrived and wound up playing Calgary in a two-game total goals series to determine second place. Regina won, then faced Edmonton in another series. Both series were defensive battles, and George Hay shined the most in the game reports. I think up until this point, Hay was just a good player, not a great one, but this playoff season was when he took that leap.

Regina went to Vancouver for the right to play for the Cup. They won the first game of the two-game total goals series, despite it being held under seven-man rules, but lost the six-man second game badly. Unfortunately for Regina, by this time, they'd played an incredibly 8 games in 12 nights, and much was made of how tired they were by the end of their run.

Irvin continued receiving praise in the papers for his play and value to the team. Duke Keats was better than him this season and that's reflected in him beating out Irvin in all-star teams, I think there's a good argument that Irvin was the next best player in the league, at least until Hay took off in the playoffs.

“Dick Irvin, probably the greatest center ice man in western hockey, absolutely refuses to play for the Regina Caps, according to Owner Champ. Irvin has not been feeling in the best of health and he will confine his hockey activities to a few games in the so-called amateur league, which Regina and Moose Jaw will form." (Dec 1921)

“Regina Capitals have yet to win a game. Magnate [Wes] Champ should get busy and sign up Dick Irvin.” (Dec 1921)

“Dick Irvin will line up with the Capitals when they take the ice against the Saskatoon Crescents this evening at the Stadium. Dick signed his contract yesterday and prior to that his release had been secured from Lester Patrick. Dick is all het up over his new contract and has promised at least a pair of goals tonight. His presence on the team will undoubtedly add a great deal of strength to the club offensively speaking, for his ability as a goal getter is well known throughout the West. It was no easy task to secure his release from the Coast loop for he was one of the most valued players who ever performed near the ocean. Patrick was anxious to get him back but in the interest of the game, decided to let him stay with Regina.” (Dec 1921)

“Dick Irvin, who played his first game for the Capitals, was the star of the game. His brilliant stick-handling was a treat to watch and he took lots of bumps, but was always able to come back for more.” (Jan 1922)

“GREAT THRILLS, DICK IRVIN PLAYS HERE MONDAY (SOME FELLOWS FROM REGINA WILL BE WITH HIM).” (Jan 1922)

“After playing in Calgary tonight the Regina Capitals, including Dick Irvin, their famous centre man, will come to Edmonton to show the Edmonton public just how they score three goals in three minutes. The big star of the Regina team is Dick Irvin. Irvin is a marvellous stick handler and combines with it an amazing speed.” (Jan 1922)

“To Dick Irvin, the non-pareil of the visiting aggregation, goes the credit for the victory for it was his terrific shot which got by Reid that settled the issue.” (Jan 1922)

“Dick Irvin looked like a million dollars for Regina, scoring four goals although on the ice but two periods.” (Jan 1922)

“Regina was the more effective team in the second period through the work of Dick Irvin, who twice stickhandled his way through for two goals. In fact the appearance of this great centre man on the ice was the signal for the visitors to take unto themselves a new lease of life and tear into the game ever harder than before.” (Jan 1922)

“'The game I witnessed in which Regina won rather easily was well played and interesting and, oh my, how those fans did roar, everybody happy and quick to show their appreciation of good play. Dick Irvin was the star as of old, although he gave way to substitutes quite frequently.” (Jan 1922)

“The three regular forwards, Dick Irvin, George Hay and Charley McVeigh, literally played their hearts out to win. No better performance could be wished by any trio of forward players in any team. They bore the brunt of the game and backchecked well. All three were fast, but when trying to bore in on the strong Calgary defence, the three men were subject to stiff punishment." (Jan 1922)

“Dick Irvin was called off the ice and nearly collapsed in the penalty box, so tired was he.” (Jan 1922)

“Dick Irvin, string under the defeat handed him, excuse us, handed Regina – last Monday, is back in town bent on revenge.” (Jan 1922)

“Dick Irvin, considered the best center player in pro hockey, gave the fans a rare exhibition of stick-handling and shooting.” (Jan 1922)

“Regina played defense while Dick was off the ice [injured]. When he came back into the rink he was given a great cheer.” (Feb 1922)

“A well-known official in the Western Canada league has doped out an all-star team, composed of hockey players who can go the route for sixty minutes. His team is as follows: Reid, Calgary, goal; Gardiner, Calgary, and Moran, Regina, defence; Keats, Edmonton, centre; Hay, Regina, left wing; Stanley, Calgary, right wing; reserve defence, Simpson, Edmonton; reserve forward line, Irvin, Regina, and Arbour, Edmonton. This official considers Duke Keats the peer of any centre ice man in hockey today, and states that had Dick Irvin Duke's weight he would be the marvel of the hockey world.” (Feb 1922)

“The first all-star team turned in by a local fan reached The Leader last night. He wished his name withheld, but has not missed a game this season. His team is: Reid, Calgary, goal; Gardiner, Calgary, Simpson, Edmonton, Traub Regina, Defense; Keats, Edmonton, center; Hay, Regina, left wing; Arbour, Edmonton, right wing; Stanley, Calgary, Dick Irvin, Regina, reserve forwards.” (Feb 1922)

[From a Q&A to the sports editor of a Saskatchewan paper]
“[Question]'And I would like to know if it is true that 'Duke' Keats is the best player in the Western Canada League and Dick Irvin a close second. Isn't 'Spunk' Sparrow the equal of either of these?' [Answer] That is a matter of opinion.” (Feb 1922)

“Dick Irvin put up another great exhibition of hockey during the course of the match. His offensive work was grand and he was a marked man during most of the match. On defense, too, he was going strong all the way. The goal scored by Dick shortly after the match started was one of the best plays made during the entire season. Dick took a lot of bumps during the match and was badly used up, but was going strong when the final bell rang.” (March 1922)

“Dick Irvin, he of Portland fame some years ago, was the man upon most of the locals' attention was centred. Dick played wonderful, cool hockey but the sensational performances of the night as far as the visitors were concerned, were dished up by George Hay and little Ernie Anderson.” (March 1922)

“Every turn the Millionaires made was bottled up and even the usually fast Mickey MacKay looked slow compared to Ernie Anderson, Charlie McVeigh and George Hay, while Dick Irvine, the peer of all goal-getters, presented such a dazzling exhibition of stick-handling that the Pacific coast champions were completely bewildered.” (March 1922)

“Vancouverites were well aware of Dick Irvin's ability, as they had seen him perform for Portland a few years ago. Irvin, as can be expected, received a great hand when he came on the ice and to satisfy the crowd he provided a few feats of stick handling that kept them on edge every time he possessed the puck..." (March 1922)

“Dick Irvin and Bill Adams always took advantage of the long pass but the rest of the squad appeared to forget that this was permissible.” (March 1922)

“Featuring Regina's performance was the great work of Dick Irvin. He has his old-time speed and was always dangerous.” (March 1922)

“While Regina lacked an individual star, Perc Traub was possibly the best of the sextet. Dick Irvin worked his heart out to score and under the conditions played a magnificent game. Time after time in the first period he got through the outer guards that surrounded the Millionaire citadel only to be foiled by the kneeling Lehman. It was enough to break the stoutest heart, but Dick never faltered.” (March 1922)

[From another Saskatchewan Q&A]
“[Question] 'To settle a dispute will you please tell us who was rated as the fastest skater and (2) who was rated as the best stick handler in the Western Canada League this winter.'
[Answer] We must decline with thanks the honor of settling the dispute. We can give you an opinion but bear in mind it is only an opinion. The majority of dyed in the wool fans who have watched hockey closely throughout the winter believe Dick Irvin is the best stick handler of the league and [Robert] Trapp, of the Edmonton team, and 'Rusty' Crawford are considered good speed merchants.” (March 1922)

“It was mainly due to Irvin's ability that Regina won the Western Canada League championship.” (Oct 1922)

This was Irvin's last season as the electrifying player he'd been since 1914 or 1915, if the game reports are to be believed. His stickhandling and shooting were still top notch, and even his speed was praised more this season than in the past. There was still loafing, but also contradictory reports of backchecking. Either way, it was another league championship for an Irvin-led squad, making it 5 out of 8 seasons going back to 1914. And it would be his last.

---

Down Years

I won't bother with the scoring tables from any of these three years as Dick finished well back of the pack, except for a 9th place finish in 1924, which was a bit of a bounce-back for him.

In the fall of 1922, the Coast came calling for Irvin's services. The Patricks needed players in their league, and they argued that Dick was still technically property of Portland, from all the way back in 1917. They said that they'd been fine with him playing the previous season as they were sympathetic towards Dick's business interests in Regina (he worked for the Swift Canadian Company, a meatpacking enterprise). But now they wanted him in the PCHA. Their offer to Wes Champ, manager of the Regina Capitals, was to either send Irvin over or send one of his young players over, of which pickings were slim. Failure to do either of those would result in the Patricks wielding their 'hockey authority' and forcing Irvin to sit out of pro hockey for the season. Champ called their bluff and started the season off with Irvin in the lineup anyway, deducing that the Patricks couldn't really act on their threat in any meaningful way. Seeing that they had no leverage, Frank Patrick offered to sell Irvin's 'rights' back to Regina after the Caps had come west to play interleague games with the PCHA, and Champ agreed. So, Dick was a Capital.

But, something else happened on that trip west. In a game against Vancouver, Irvin was caught off balance at high speed near the slot and was sent crashing into the goalpost, back-first, by none other than Frank Patrick, in one of his rare late-career games (though all accounts agreed that the hit was not dirty). Irvin left the match, and at first his injury was reported as not being serious. But he wound up missing two weeks over it, before coming back in early January, only to have the injury "go back on him" and force him out of the lineup again. Once he returned for good, Irvin was not the same player anymore, needing frequent substitutions and being unable to ramp up at full speed the same way.

To illustrate the difference, here are some quotes from before Irvin's injury, and while he was out:

"Lester let it be known that two men are on his list. One is Dick Irvin, about the nearest approach to Frederickson in the centre-ice business to-day, and 'Red' Dutton, star defence man of the Calgary squad.” (Oct 1922)

"Irvin is recognized as a super-star and Lester will not let him play in Regina unless Manager Champ comes half way and gives him a player in exchange... If Champ refused to hand over a player Irvin must stay out of the game. When this aspect is given careful consideration by Champ he will probably talk of a trade, because Irvin is half his team, and without him Regina would find the going a bit hard. The Regina fans would also want to know why Dick is not in the game.” (Oct 1922)

“Reports emanating from the Capital City would indicate that Dick Irvin, former Winnipeg star, and one of the sensations on the prairies last season, is coming back to the coast... Dick is known as the cleanest player in hockey today. He is a flash on the steel blades and stick-handles in sensational style.” (Oct 1922)

“The loss of Irvin would be a severe blow to Wes Champ's ambitions. It would shoot a bad hole in his forward line, for although he has a large squad of high-class players, Irvin is a goal-getter and probably the most valuable man on the team.” (Oct 1922)

“Irvin's presence on any professional club is a big step toward a winning team. He is conceded by many to be the most valuable man in the game today and Regina will be solidly behind any fight to retain him.” (Nov 1922)

“Regina, too, will have the services of one of the brainiest men in the game next season. Barney Stanley's contract reached Champ Monday. Hockey fans the world over need no introduction to Stanley. He is as well known as Irvin, Lalonde and Keats.” (Nov 1922)

“The chief worry of Regina fans continues to be the ultimate disposal to be made of Dick Irvin. A team without the star goal-getter now would bring gloom to the followers of the game.” (Nov 1922)

“The Regina squad in charge of Manager Champ were right at home at the Amphitheatre rink because most of them had their training at the same spot, the majority of them being former Winnipeg lads. The great and only Dick Irvin was right in his element, while George Hay, who also got his start with the Winnipeg Monarchs, looks like one of the niftiest forwards in the business.” (Nov 1922)

“If Irvin is barred from pro hockey this winter, it will be a staggering blow to the Caps' pennant hopes. It is admitted that he is the greatest offensive star in the prairie circuit.” (Nov 1922)

“[Hay, Sparrow, and Irvin] were developed in Winnipeg, and performed here for many years before fleeting westward. Dick Irvin is considered one of the greatest centre players in the game, and acquired his early training with the Monarchs, of Allan Cup fame.” (Nov 1922)

“Keeping Irvin out of the game will be a severe blow for Regina, as well as for the entire circuit, as he is one of the best offensive players in the game and is an attraction.” (Nov 1922)

“Such hot favorites as Dick Irvin, considered by many to be the peer of centre ice players...” (Nov 1922)

“The fact that Dick Irvin is on the reserve list means nothing. Frank Patrick can put players on his reserve list with the utmost sangfroid. He does it as easily as Dick Irvin can shoot the puck in the net.” (Nov 1922)

“At this juncture, with a goal very much needed, Dick Irvin was sent out, and he brought home the bacon. He swept up the ice and stickhandled the Igloo-dwellers to a standstill, and then shot one past Winkler that almost tore the goalposts from their moorings.” (Dec 1922)

“To the intense delight of the fans, Dick Irvin trotted out to his accustomed place at center ice, his suspension having been temporarily lifted by Frank Patrick, at the request of President Richardson. Dick was obviously not at the top of his form, but he was a constant menace to the Eskimo defense, and his tricky stick-manipulating and shooting were a treat for sore eyes. Dick still needs a little more conditioning, and the same can also be said of Duke Keats, the Eskimos' center, who needs to reduce his girth just a little before he can be quite the same spectacular Duke of last year. He is still several pounds overweight.” (Dec 1922)

“What the Caps would have done without Irvin is hard to say, as Dick did yeoman service at centre... The Leader was besieged with phone calls yesterday, asking if Dick was going to play, and through the indecision of the Capitals' management is was impossible to say either yes or no. Incidentally, Irvin treated the fans to much of the brilliant stick-handling they had been hoping to watch, and his goal in the first period was one of the best-executed pieces of individual stratagem ever seen at the Stadium.” (Dec 1922)

“Irvin is the property of Victoria, but Manager Champ of Regina wants him as badly as he wants a million dollars.” (Dec 1922)

“Dick Irvin in particular, was showing brilliant form for the visitors at this stage... Shortly after this Irvin bored in on the Vancouver nets again at top speed and after colliding with Frank Patrick, caromed off the husky Vancouver defense player and struck the goal posts. Irvin was carried from the ice but was able to accompany the rest of his team mates to the hotel after the game.” (Dec 1922)

“Dick Irvin, star centre player of the Regina hockey team will remain with Wes Champ's Capitals... The price was not given out but it is generally known that Frank Patrick has been asking $2000.” (Dec 1922)

“[Says Wes Champ] 'And remember that we trimmed Seattle without the services of Dick Irvin, who is twenty-five percent of our team.'” (Dec 1922)

“One great regret in connection with the coast game is that Dick Irvin wasn't playing, as it would have been a wonderful contest had Dick and Frank Frederickson been stacked up against each other in center ice. Hockey fans are divided in their opinion as to which is the greatest center player in the west. Some light might have been cast on the subject if they had staged a 'showdown' at Victoria.” (Dec 1922)

“Dick Irvin, one of the finest center ice men in the hockey business today, whom Manager Wes Champ claims to be 25 per cent of his team, will probably be out of the Regina line up for at least three weeks. Irvin is suffering from a heavy blow he received across the kidneys in the game in Vancouver on Monday night... Irvin is in considerably pain and the doctors have advised him to rest. Unless Irvin's back improves much quicker than the medical men predict, Regina will have to get along for three weeks without their superstar.” (Dec 1922)

And here are some quotes - a mixture of good and the bad - from after he fully returned:

“Dick Irvin may be the most valuable member of Wes Champ's hockey roster, but a whole lot of people are ready to award the laurel wreath to young George Hay.” (Jan 1923)

“Barney Stanley... became a sub only because the great Dick Irvin holds down center ice for Regina. During Irvin's absence from the game, Barney has shown his worth and there are many local fans who prefer his style of play to Irvin's.” (Jan 1923)

"Dick Irvin has been slowed up by his accident at the coast, and is brilliant in spots. It will be weeks before Dick regains his old cunning.” (Jan 1923)

“Keats is indispensable to the Eskimos. Playing without his services, the Esks are hopelessly lost. Regina, however, can get along without Irvin. Barney Stanley, who heads the strongest subbing section in the league, served his team so well during Irvin's absence from the line that he practically defeated Seattle and Victoria himself... Dick Irvin is still unable to get into harness as a regular, and it will be a week or two before Dick regains his old cunning, although he travelled for three minutes at a dizzy pace on Wednesday.” (Jan 1923)

“A certain amount of misfortune visited the camp of the Capitals in the shape of injuries. In the second session McCusker had to retire for repairs after having his left cheek cut open by a nasty shot from Martin, and Dick Irvin was unable to finish the period on account of a smack on the ankle.” (Feb 1923)

“Meeking, Halderson and Freddy were the Cougars' stars. Frederickson at times outguessed the entire team in the final spasm, and was skating rings around Irvin and Hay. Regina papers have recently been indulging in speculation on the merits of the famous Icelander compared to Dick Irvin. This morning they have no doubts. It was Frederickson all the way. Irvin played a better game than usual but was not in the same class as Frederickson on last night's form.” (Feb 1923)

“Dick Irvin will probably never play another game of hockey that will equal his performance Monday. Dick is 32 years old, five or six more than Frederickson... Already it is plain that Dick's best days are over, but the exceptional circumstances Monday inspired him to show his best form. He was hardly the Dick Irvin of old, but he was pretty close to it.” (Feb 1923)

^ The above two quotes were from the same game, written from different papers' perspective... some contradictions there, but the point is the 'best days are over' line.

“Neither Dick Irvin of Regina nor Duke Keats of Edmonton rank with [Frederickson]. Keats has a good head, but Freddie can skate rings around him and out-stickhandle him, and when it comes to shooting, the honors all go to the former Falcon skipper. Irvin now is not capable of going over more than half the route, and while still tricky, clever and fast, he is not the pivot man that Frederickson is.” (March 1923)

^ I'm 99% sure that the 'not capable of going over more than half the route' means Irvin needed to be subbed out very frequently.

Harry Scott of the Calgary Herald still picked Irvin as a sub centre for his all-star team. Also, a Winnipeg paper printed an all-star team, picking players from all leagues in Canada, that a 'student of pro hockey' from the East compiled. Irvin made it as a sub. I think it's fair to say that based on the above quotes, plus the noticeable lack of glowing praise he received in game reports, that these all star teams were mostly based on reputation. As for the Capitals, they still managed a solid showing in the WCHL that year, mostly on the back of prime George Hay, and battled Edmonton in a playoff to win the title, which they lost.

In 1923-24, the Capitals had a very good team and had four mainstays at forward - Hay, Stanley, Irvin, and Art Gagne. Through the first half of the year, Irvin was used exclusively as a sub for Stanley at centre, had accumulated only five or six points, and was frequently described as having suffered some sort of painful nick or bruise in game reports. Regina had been mediocre up until the midway point, but the decision to begin starting Irvin at centre over Stanley reignited the offense and they went on a run, with Irvin scoring at a pace similar to the previous season and receiving more praise than he had since 1922. Another playoff ensued, and Regina again came up short. Irvin is described as playing quite poorly in this playoff, and the series was marred by him brutally clubbing Cully Wilson in the head with his stick while the latter sat in the penalty box, in what was a shocking display of violence for a player who contemporaries considered one of the cleanest of the era. In spite of this, he lands on all-star teams by referees Jimmy Gardner and Mickey Ion as sub forward.

I won't bother with quotes for this season as it's mostly the same as the previous season - Dick displayed flashes of brilliance, mostly in the second half, but for the most part he's just a good player now, and no longer a dominant one - though he did improve once he began getting more ice time in the second half. But I do want to add something from his 1924-25 season.

This was by far his worst campaign, both from an individual and team perspective. Regina was in the cellar and Irvin dropped back out of the top-10 in points thanks to again needing frequent subs. But it's actually worse than that. Dick was made playing-manager for the Caps, which was a first for him in his career from what I could find. That, in addition to being made captain. The results were not good:

“Regina can place its lowly standing to their lack of direction and team attack. Individually, they have a splendid team, but they have so far lacked co-ordination in their attacking efforts. Dick Irvin, captain, is a brainy and shrewd hockey player, but he is not the leader that Barney Stanley is.” (Dec 1924)

“At the commencement of the season the Regina Caps let Barney Stanley go and placed the team in charge of Dick Irvin. The result has been a tale of woe for the Caps. They have lost all their three starts and seem in a bad way. With Stanley at the helm the Caps entered the play-off in two successive years. Now they seem disorganized, while the Edmonton Esks, who have acquired Stanley, are near the top. Dick Irvin is one of the greatest hockey players in history. A truly deft and methodical player on the ice. But Dick is too easy going, too stolid to be a leader.” (Dec 1924)

“Dick Irvin isn't the flashy, speedy, effective Richard who was once the greatest little centre-ice man in hockey. More than one fan remarked after the game that Wes Champ was in a daze when he turned Barney Stanley loose.” (Jan 1925)

“There were many things that contributed to the downfall of the Regina club. Perhaps the biggest single factor has been the disappointing work of McCusker in the nets... On the forward line, the main fault of the Caps has been lack of system... Dick Irvin was slow to get into form and only recently began to figure prominently in the goal-getting. Even now he cannot stand the pace for more than a few minutes at a time." (Feb 1925)

“Regina is reported to be preparing for a big shakeup in the hockey club. It is rumored that McCusker, goaltender; Traub and Newell, defense, and Dick Irvin, forward, are for sale or trade.” (March 1925)

Not good! Reading this, it's actually surprising to me that Irvin became the famous and successful coach that he would end up becoming in the following decades. Perhaps concentrating all of his attention on the coaching aspect rather than trying to multitask was what he needed?

Whatever the case, there were very few meaningful press clippings of Dick Irvin at all this season, showing how his star was fading. That makes it all the more surprising that he managed the following two seasons.

---

The WHL & NHL

Somehow, Dick's best statistical seasons were 1925-26 and 1926-27, in the WHL and NHL respectively. While his Portland and Chicago teams were just okay, Irvin lit the scoresheet up both years:

1925-26
PlayerTeamGPGAPtsPIM
Bill CookSaskatoon Sheiks3031134426
Dick IrvinPortland Rosebuds303153629
Corb DennenySaskatoon Sheiks3018163412
Art GagneEdmonton Eskimos3021123320
George HayPortland Rosebuds301912314
Duke KeatsEdmonton Eskimos3020929134
Harry OliverCalgary Tigers3013122514
Frank FredricksonVictoria Cougars301882489
Frank BoucherVancouver Maroons291572214
Barney StanleyEdmonton Eskimos291482247

1926-27
PlayerTeamGPGAPtsPIM
Bill CookNew York Rangers443343756
Dick IrvinChicago Black Hawks4318183634
Howie MorenzMontreal Canadiens442573251
Frank FredricksonDetroit Cougars / Boston Bruins4418133150
Babe DyeChicago Black Hawks412553014
Ace BaileyToronto St. Patricks4215132880
Frank BoucherNew York Rangers4413152817
Billy BurchNew York Americans431982742
Bun CookNew York Rangers4414112542
George HayChicago Black Hawks3514102412

What explains the sudden explosion in points? To be honest, I wish I had a more concrete answer. The biggest reason from what I could find is that Irvin wasn't being subbed as often, according to game reports. Whether that meant he was more fit than in previous seasons, or if he was just toughing it out more, I can't say. The fact that his teams were middling for both years suggests to me that Dick staying on the ice more often didn't help his team as much as you'd like. Then again, in 1927 the Hawks had by far the league's most productive offense, so... maybe he was fine? I wish I'd been able to find more substance on these seasons, but unfortunately it just wasn't really there. Irvin got his points, but his game reports were kind of neutral. There's one quote that describes Dick as being expected to play forty to fifty minutes of hockey in a game in 1927, despite having a splintered bone in his leg. That's probably a sign that Irvin was playing too much for his and his team's own good...

Also of note - it looks like Dick Irvin's father, who was once a fine hockey player in his own right, actually coached the Rosebuds for a few weeks in 1926!

I've got a few interesting quotes from these two seasons:

“Dick Irvin, one of the craftiest hockey players in front of the nets, and George Hay, reputed to be one of the greatest left wing players in the game, are two of the outstanding players on the team.” (Dec 1925)

“Out of the din of battle loomed one Dick Irvin, rated by the wise-acres as having seen his best days as a hockey player..." (Dec 1925)

“Early in the season some wise-acres had it that Dick Irvin was through, and any sort of trade or purchase price would move him from the old Regina club. He is providing the bulk of Portland's finished attack... The old reliable, Dick Irvin, who has been banging goals regularly this season, used his head to advantage as well as displaying a classy brand of the game." (Dec 1925)

“... Just after Mr. McCusker had been laid in a horizontal position by an accidental stick Irvin and McVeigh zigzagged up the ice, and when the 'rabbit' obeyed Mr. Irvin's clarion roar to 'Drive it, Rabbit!' the flying hare did just that, and Irvin followed through like Jim Barnes to hole out for two.” (Feb 1926)

"Dick Irvin, that grey-haired fox, flipped a back-hander at Lehman which that excessively alert receiver didn't quite catch. Irvin has thrown careless pucks often in a somewhat meteoric career. He'll never throw a more abandoned one with truer aim than the one which kept Portland on the hockey map last night and marooned the Maroons.” (Feb 1926)

“The comeback of Dick Irvin was a revelation. He was considered about through a year ago, but steps out and finishes second in the goal averages.” (March 1926)

“George Hay, at left wing, is about the pick of the Portland bunch, being a very smooth skater, expert stick-handler and prolific goal-getter. With Dick Irvin, the team captain, he rounds out one of the greatest scoring combinations in the west. 'Rabbit' McVeigh is a spectacular player, but not as valuable as Irvin and Hay.” (March 1926)

“At any rate there seems to be no doubt about the fact that Geo. Hay and Dick Irvin are fairly burning up the ice. Reports have it that they backchecked their opponents silly in their first two encounters.” (Nov 1926)

"Irvin is known as a trick shot artist among the hockey enthusiasts. That one he pulled off in the second period last night was tricky enough to convince anyone of the fact." (Dec 1926)

“They call him the silver haired fox of the hockey game. If you watch the Blackhawks perform you will see him loafing around the middle of the pond during the contest, and every once in a while hooking the puck deftly from an opponent and turning the attack on the opponents' goal. His name is Dick Irvin and he's captain of the team.” (Dec 1926)

“Captain Dick Irvin, who has been put off three times tonight, is spilling the Senators all over the ice.” (Dec 1926)

“And of the men on the ice Capt. Dick Irvin was playing with a badly bruised leg and a battered face.” (Dec 1926)

"Prior to the Chicago team's reporting, [Hawks president Fred] McLaughin had a visitor at his office one day. The visitor was a clever hockey player prematurely gray.

'Mr. McLaughlin,' said the visitor. 'I'm one of your players,' said the man with the silver locks. 'My name is Irvin. Dick Irvin.'

McLaughlin took one look at him. 'You are one of my players,' he said. Then to himself, 'My Friends were right. I've got an ancient team, all right. I'm stuck.' McLaughlin could not believe Irvin was one of his players. He felt he must be a trainer, carrying a joke too far. The suspense lifted when Pete Muldoon, the team manager, walked into the room, greeted Irvin enthusiastically, and told McLaughlin he was a real center man.” (Jan 1927)

"If the crafty Dick Irwin decided to use his legs instead of his head for once he might give them all a surprise.” (Jan 1927)

^ This was from an article previewing a leaguewide 'fastest skater' competition, held mid-season.

“The graying Dick Irwin wore his captain's bars well last night, for he led the offense almost all the time he was on the ice, with noble assistance from Bob Trapp and Eddie Rodden, the Minneapolis Miller, who joined the team yesterday.” (Jan 1927)

“Babe Dye and Dick Irvin, of the Black Hawks, are both well up in the scoring list, but they still seem to have the right idea of playing for goals, no matter who scores them. Dye registered against St. Pats on a pass from Irvin.” (Feb 1927)

"Irvin is a grey-haired gent with a penchant towards laying about him..." (Feb 1927)

“It is stated that in connection with this, Capt. Dick Irvin, showing real courage, has been playing for some time with a badly splintered leg. The splinter off the leg is, according to the club pilot, as broad and long as a large fountain pen.” (Feb 1927)

“Irvin broke up a play at his own blue line and rushed through the center alone. Coming to the defence he pulled over to Clancy's side and drove a hard shot at Connell that never left the ice. Alex had to stretch to reach it with his foot, and the disc hit his skates and finished up against the back of the net.” (Feb 1927)

“Muldoon has definitely shifted Fraser from defence to spell off Dick Irvin in centre. The latter's knee is giving him trouble. He received a bat with a stick that knocked off a sliver of bone, though the injury has had the effect of slowing up the Hawks captain, he will play forty or fifty minutes of hockey Wednesday.” (Feb 1927)

“Five seconds before the period ended, Dick Irvin went through in a weaving, characteristic old-time rush, drew Connell from the net and scored neatly.” (Feb 1927)

“Chicago's poor defensive standing is not critical of Lehman's work, but rather the result of the team's scheme of play in which offensive work is stressed far more than defensive play. That means a wild attack with no thought of the other fellow's scoring power.” (Feb 1927)

“After battling through a scoreless opening stanza, the Chicago Hawks' grey-thatched centre, Dick Irvin, proved himself a past master in hockey craft when he slipped past the Senator backs in the second period to collar a loose puck and put his team in the lead.” (March 1927)

“The New York World carries a special article on this question, and names ten players on ten teams, who in the opinion of that writer, have been the most valuable. Out of the ten five are former Winnipeggers. These are Herb Gardner, Frank Frederickson, Dick Irvin, Charlie McVeigh and Johnnie Sheppard.” (March 1927)

“Had it not been for Capt. Dick Irvin, the gray haired veteran of the Chicago team, the Cougars might have escaped with a victory. Irvin played all over the rink, back checking the Cougar forwards, racing back behind his own net to cut down attacks, and in addition he led the Hawks' onslaught on the Cougars' goals, twice passing the puck to one of his mates, who batted the rubber home for goals.” (March 1927)

“The hockey player given the greatest credit for landing the Chicago Blackhawks in the playoff for the world championship in the ice sport, starting the night of March 29, is Dick Irvin, forward and captain of the Chicago National league team and for 20 years a hockey star. He played critical games this year with a leg ailment for which physicians had ordered him to the hospital and participated in more than 40 games. He is a leading candidate for the 'most valuable player' award in his league.” (March 1927)

“Manager Pete Muldoon's handling of his men this season has been criticised because of frequent changes in the forward line. Dick Irvin has played center and wing, Gordon Fraser has been tried on the defense and at center and wing, and others have been shifted about almost as often... while Muldoon's record as a manager has been good in the past something has been radically wrong in the manner in which the players have been shifted about.” (March 1927)

“Western fans are not surprised that Cook grabbed first place in the scoring records but they are somewhat startled to see Dick Irvin qualify as runner-up. Dick is no longer a dashing youngster – he has slowed up a lot in the last few seasons. That's why he wasn't expected to prove such a scoring sensation in the NHL. But Irvin still has his wicked shot and he has become less selfish than he was in his prime. By passing the puck he collected many points and his mates have fed him, in return, for more 'soft' goals. (April 1927)

"[From an article on Barney Stanley taking over from Pete Muldoon as manager] Remembering that Barney Stanley and Dick Irvin could never quite see eye to eye on the matter of running a hockey team, many Regina fans are wondering how the former playing manager of the Caps and Winnipeg Maroons will succeed in his new sphere of endeavor as mentor of the Black Hawks..." (April 1927)

“Will a 'trick' knee, injured last spring in a collision with Morenz, of the Candiens, and operated on since with questionable results, bring to an end the colorful career of one of hockey's greatest centre ice men, Dick Irvin? This problem won't be answered for another two or three months, but in the meantime Dick himself is frankly worried. Speaking to The Post, the wizard goal-getter, who otherwise appears in the best of condition, confessed that the knee has continued to trouble him in spite of an operation it underwent a few weeks ago.

'There is also a 'click' about it that I don't like,' remarked Dick, adding that the member invariably gets stiff if he sits or lies around for any length of time.” (April 1927)

“Irvin is of the opinion that the changes made in the NHL rules last Saturday will be a big help on the game. He is particularly elated over the fact that a maximum length for hockey sticks has been set. This will slow up the hook-checking proclivities of such notables as Hooley Smith and [Pit] Lepine, and make the going easier for fellows who play the same kind of hockey as Dick does.” (April 1927)

“Captain Dick Irvin, of the Black Hawks is an automobile salesman, and his aggregate annual earnings are probably $15,000 a year, as much or more as the stipend of a deputy minister at Ottawa.” (Oct 1927)

After a playoff loss to Frank Frederickson's Bruins, Dick finished 4th in voting for the Hart, and 2nd in voting for the Byng. Then, in December of the following season, Irvin fractured his skull in a game against the Maroons... and that was basically the end of the story.

---

To conclude Dick Irvin's career, I'll summarize it thusly: his peak lasted probably from 1915 to 1922, before injuries slowed him down heavily over the next three years and reduced him to being used mostly as a sub. Then, he followed that up with two years where he played most of the games, but couldn't impact a game the way he'd once been able to, and his teams were just okay as a result. While the stats were excellent in these two years, the game reports show that he was well past his prime. Kind of reminds me of the career arc of Alex Ovechkin, who kept up the big numbers deep into his thirties, after a mid-career slump, even when watching the games tells you that he's half the guy he once was. There - I linked Irvin to my favourite player. Now I'm happy.

I'm going to finish up with one more short post on Irvin, because there's some retrospective opinions that I want to include, as well as some final thoughts on where he stacks up this round for me.
 

Dr John Carlson

Registered User
Dec 21, 2011
10,077
4,682
Nova Scotia
Dick Irvin - Pt. 3

As I said, this one will be very brief - I won't even include a picture!

The following retrospective opinions are from the this thread, being brought in here for posterity's sake.

- Hap Holmes included Irvin among the contenders for the centre spot on his all-time starting lineup, along with Keats and Nighbor, behind Morenz.
- Red Dutton selected Irvin as top centre of all-time since he began playing, ahead of Morenz and Frank Boucher.
- Duke Keats selected Irvin as the centre on his all-time all-star lineup.
- Mickey Ion included Irvin among the best players of the 1910-1920 time period - though the group he chose was vast.
- Tommy Gorman thought Dick Irvin and Toe Blake were the best players he'd seen.
- Frank Selke picked Irvin as the runner-up to Scotty Davidson at RW on his all-time best team. This one is interesting because I found an article criticizing Selke's list, mentioning how Irvin never played RW, and how Newsy Lalonde, who'd been picked as the runner-up at LW, had never played that position either. I can't speak on Lalonde, but I can say for a fact that Irvin was exclusively a centre, except for a few games in both of his final two productive seasons where he did play RW.
- Steamer Maxwell rated Irvin, along with Tommy Phillips, as the best players he'd ever seen - though Maxwell may have been biased in Dick's favour.
- Larry Armstrong, the longtime coach for the University of Minnesota, thought Irvin was the greatest hockey player in Canada's history.

---

I know the argument against Irvin was that there aren't enough productive seasons of high-level hockey, but I think there's enough evidence of his immense value and star power in the leagues that he did play in that Dick Irvin should be a real contender to go #1 this week. The only players who can come close to his star power in this round are MacDougall and Patrick, right? I know BenchBrawl likes Joe Hall's star power but I'd take Irvin's over Hall's, on account of Irvin's being the result of his talent rather than his truculence, though I concede that being violent during this time was probably an advantage over being clean.

Also, I'll remind everyone that Irvin was considered to be the peer of Mickey MacKay, Frank Frederickson, and Duke Keats during his prime, not the others up for voting this round. George Hay didn't definitively pass Irvin until Dick had a bad back and began having trouble making it through the entire sixty minutes. He outplayed Babe Dye when they were teammates, even taking into account how Dick was likely less than what his numbers were that year, and Dye was a lot closer to his prime than Irvin was.

I'm open to pushback but I feel pretty good about this one. As I've said, Irvin had his flaws, most of which became apparent after his prime, when he wasn't the same. But the highs are so high. It's too difficult for me to ignore what the people who watched Dick Irvin play said about him.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,883
2,509
Alright everyone, voting is open; please send all ballots to @rmartin65 and @seventieslord by 9:00 PM EST on Thursday. Please try to meet this timeline, as a delay in ballots will likely result in the next round starting late on Friday (after the work day) as opposed to Friday morning due to some scheduling conflicts.

There was a lot of good information/discussion this week; I know I have changed my mind (drastically, in some cases) on a couple of players. Let's keep this energy up!
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,505
9,492
Regina, Saskatchewan
I'll take my lumps in regards to Ernie Russell.

I suspect I had him highest, largely on the back of his offensive peak of 1907. There's only a 3 year gap between him and Russell Bowie and he manages to put up a very strong offensive year with 4 more goals in 1 less game.

He had another really strong year in 1912.

There's a bit of a gap of offensive talent in ~1907-1910 after Phillips. And Russell stood out. I didn't know about the defensive gaps or lackluster Cup play.

I'll take my lumps.
 

Black Gold Extractor

Registered User
May 4, 2010
3,092
4,967
I'll take my lumps in regards to Ernie Russell.

I suspect I had him highest, largely on the back of his offensive peak of 1907. There's only a 3 year gap between him and Russell Bowie and he manages to put up a very strong offensive year with 4 more goals in 1 less game.

He had another really strong year in 1912.

There's a bit of a gap of offensive talent in ~1907-1910 after Phillips. And Russell stood out. I didn't know about the defensive gaps or lackluster Cup play.

I'll take my lumps.

Eh, I had Russell pretty high relative to other amateur era players on my list as well. In isolation, it looked like he and Marty Walsh were part of the leading edge of new offensive stars during the transition from amateur to professional hockey.

For me, it was when seventieslord noted that Russell was actually the same age as Didier Pitre that really knocked the wind out of his sails. Russell had longevity over Walsh, but did that really matter when Pitre played 20 years?

At this point, IMHO, Walsh should be voted onto the list before Russell, and we have a bunch of good defenders that need to get in. It's a competitive field.

(We actually probably should have made it a top 70 or 80 list, in retrospect.)
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,382
7,737
Regina, SK
Looking at the 5 contemporary wingers Noble, Harris, Roberts, Cleghorn & Broadbent

How do we feel they should be ranked?

Noble strikes me as clearly the biggest star based on legacy. I like Smokey Harris and Gordon Roberts a lot especially in an ATD sense based on playstyle. They were both strong offensive secondary stars of the era.

Broadbent, pretty meh on overall.

Cleghorn I probably would have ahead of Broadbent but not by much. He hung around and produced but just at a level below the first three.


SeasonTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1910-1911Renfrew Creamery Kings16Odie CleghornRW16203236619%55%77%
1911-1912Montreal Wanderers18Odie CleghornRight Wing17274313028%78%100%
1912-1913Montreal Wanderers20Odie CleghornRight Wing20185234421%48%77%
1913-1914Montreal Wanderers20Odie CleghornRight Wing1397161910%36%36%
1914-1915Montreal Wanderers20Odie CleghornRight Wing15215263916%76%76%
1915-1916Montreal Wanderers24Odie CleghornRight Wing21157225118%56%88%
1916-1917Montreal Wanderers20Odie CleghornRight Wing18284324927%67%100%
1918-1919Montreal Canadiens18Odie CleghornRight Wing18216273322%82%82%
1919-1920Montreal Canadiens24Odie CleghornRight Wing21204243013%49%52%
1920-1921Montreal Canadiens24Odie CleghornRight Wing2154986%21%21%
1921-1922Montreal Canadiens24Odie CleghornRight Wing24213242618%52%92%
1922-1923Montreal Canadiens24Odie CleghornRight Wing24196251823%68%81%
1923-1924Montreal Canadiens24Odie CleghornRight Wing22336147%25%27%
1924-1925Montreal Canadiens30Odie CleghornRight Wing30336144%13%15%

SeasonTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1911-1912Vancouver Millionaires15Fred HarrisLW15404554%15%15%
1912-1913Vancouver Millionaires14Fred HarrisRW16146206119%69%100%
1913-1914Vancouver Millionaires16Fred HarrisLeft Wing15143173313%44%44%
1914-1915Portland Rosebuds18Fred HarrisLeft Wing18143173914%38%57%
1915-1916Portland Rosebuds18Fred HarrisLeft Wing18106167515%46%55%
1916-1917Portland Rosebuds24Fred HarrisLeft Wing241813313819%57%69%
1917-1918Portland Rosebuds18Fred HarrisLeft Wing956111911%26%52%
1918-1919Vancouver Millionaires20Fred HarrisLW2020626022%72%72%
1919-1920Vancouver Millionaires22Fred HarrisLeft Wing221410241921%73%100%
1920-1921Vancouver Millionaires24Fred HarrisLeft Wing24151732622%100%100%
1921-1922Vancouver Millionaires24Fred HarrisLeft Wing23104142112%47%47%
1922-1923Vancouver Maroons30Fred HarrisLeft Wing2010616269%29%40%
1923-1924Seattle Metropolitans30Fred HarrisLeft Wing30810183016%58%64%
1924-1925Boston Bruins30Fred HarrisLeft Wing631486%9%17%

SeasonTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1909-1910Ottawa Senators12Gord RobertsLeft Wing9130133415%41%68%
1910-1911Montreal Wanderers16Gord RobertsLW410131%2%5%
1911-1912Montreal Wanderers18Gord RobertsLeft Wing18161172816%43%55%
1912-1913Montreal Wanderers20Gord RobertsLeft Wing16172192217%40%63%
1913-1914Montreal Wanderers20Gord RobertsLeft Wing203113441527%98%100%
1914-1915Montreal Wanderers20Gord RobertsLeft Wing19295347420%100%100%
1915-1916Montreal Wanderers24Gord RobertsLeft Wing21187256421%64%100%
1916-1917Vancouver Millionaires23Gord RobertsLeft Wing234310534225%98%100%
1917-1918Seattle Metropolitans18Gord RobertsLeft Wing18203232420%53%77%
1919-1920Vancouver Millionaires22Gord RobertsLeft Wing22163191317%58%79%

SeasonTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1912-1913Ottawa Senators20Harry BroadbentRight Wing18202221521%46%100%
1913-1914Ottawa Senators20Harry BroadbentRight Wing1767136113%29%46%
1914-1915Ottawa Senators20Harry BroadbentRight Wing202432711528%79%100%
1918-1919Ottawa Senators18Harry BroadbentRight Wing8437126%21%25%
1919-1920Ottawa Senators24Harry BroadbentRight Wing21196254014%51%61%
1920-1921Ottawa Senators24Harry BroadbentRight Wing9415103%12%13%
1921-1922Ottawa Senators24Harry BroadbentRight Wing243214462826%100%100%
1922-1923Ottawa Senators24Harry BroadbentRight Wing24141153412%41%44%
1923-1924Ottawa Senators24Harry BroadbentRight Wing2294134411%54%54%
1924-1925Montreal Maroons30Harry BroadbentRight Wing30146207527%43%100%
1925-1926Montreal Maroons36Harry BroadbentRight Wing361251711213%40%40%

SeasonTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1916-1917Montreal Canadiens20Reg NobleCenter6404154%8%13%
1916-1917Toronto Blueshirts14Reg NobleCenter1493125115%25%48%
1917-1918Toronto Arenas22Reg NobleCenter203010403525%83%100%
1918-1919Toronto Arenas18Reg NobleCenter17105153516%45%88%
1919-1920Toronto St. Pats24Reg NobleCenter24249335220%67%92%
1920-1921Toronto St. Pats24Reg NobleCenter24198275418%63%71%
1921-1922Toronto St. Pats24Reg NobleCenter241711281918%61%74%
1922-1923Toronto St. Pats24Reg NobleCenter241211234717%62%62%
1923-1924Toronto St. Pats24Reg NobleCenter24125177920%71%89%
1924-1925Montreal Maroons30Reg NobleCenter27811195626%41%95%
1924-1925Toronto St. Pats30Reg NobleCenter310181%2%2%
1925-1926Montreal Maroons36Reg NobleCenter3399189614%43%43%
Sure, I'd have Cleghorn ahead of Broadbent as far as compiling numbers is concerned. But for star power, general historical reverence, reputation, whatever one calls it, it seems like you have to go with Punch.

And they are contemporaries at the same position and one made the Hall of Fame and one didn't. If we are going to rank Cleghorn ahead of him, we better be sure we have a damn good reason.

I will posit one: is it possible that Broadbent gets too much mileage out of his scoring streak and the scoring title that resulted from it?

(We actually probably should have made it a top 70 or 80 list, in retrospect.)
We still could! Who's gonna stop us?
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,382
7,737
Regina, SK
I finished the 1903 SC series this morning. Marshall definitely looks better here than in the 1902 series, and I can see a case for him as the series MVP. I don't think it is anything definite, though, as there is some high praise for Hooper in there as well.

The press coverage of these games provides some pretty good insight into Marshall's style of play- he seems like a try-hard, and I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way. I don't get the vibe that he was particularly skilled, he just never stopped working and didn't shy away from anything.

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 29 January 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “‘Dicky’ Boon expressed himself as follows this morning: ‘The best team won. It was hockey. The ice was terrible, and that accounts for the poor quality of the match. The puck would not slide at all. It was difficult to move it. I am well satisfied with the team, and I do not see any reason why it should be changed. Phillips’ work satisfied me. He covered his man, did he not? That was the only game to play under conditions like those of yesterday, man against man’”

“Oleson in goal appeared at first a little nervous, but he put up a good game. He is a clever blocker and has his eye on the puck all the time. His stability at critical moments was quite noticeable. The position of point was played by the old timer, Roddy Flett, but this player is dropping away, and his work, while aggressive, was, at its best, only fair. He did not appear to realize the situation, and his blocking was not too rapid. He was a disappointment to his friends and possibly he realized the fact at times”

“”In the first place, Oleson, between the flags, was not equal to the occasion. He may be a good goalkeeper under ordinary conditions, but the novelty of the situation seemed to render his work mediocre, and he did not stop anything difficult during the game”

“Though Roddy Flett got off the train from a 1,500 mile trip just two hours before the match, he played with remarkable judgment, and was, in fact, the strong man of the seven throughout. Magnus also put up a creditable article, while Kean on the forward line the junior from whom much could not be reasonably expected, played with comparative brilliance. Scanlan and Cadham were working all the time, but never got a chance to shine. Their checks looked after them so diligently that they were in second place throughout. Gingras tried to use his body, but Referee Quinn would not let him, and, in fact, ruled him off once when he had not committed an offence”

“Hooper was a perfect whirlwind and got by the opposing defence for four goals. Nicholson in goal was a source of confidence to the defence, and Bellingham also put up a splendid game. Boon of course was peerless, while Phillips, who formerly played with Rat Portage, made a remarkable showing for a new man”

A Montreal paper reported: “The Winnipeg defence, to quote from the small boy, was a ‘mark’, even the redoubtable ‘Rod’ Rlett failed to stop that irresistible attack showered upon his citadel”

“Scanlan was the one steady player of the line last night, but he was alone. Gingras was a lamentable failure; while Keane and Cadham were good in spots. Scanlan played a game similar to the fine exhibitions he used to give when he wore a green and grey sweater, and was one of the champions of the world, but his work was lost owing to the failure of his three fellow forwards to help him out, and his gallant rushes were without avail”

“It was a hard task for a man to do [play after the 1,500 train trip], and while Flett, no doubt, played as good a game at point as it was in him to do, the evidence of his lond and tedious journey were only too plain, and when the youth of Magnus Flett failed in front, the experience of the older man was exerted to withstand the press for a while, but then the strain told and in the end he was down and out, so to speak. But even then the strong spirit showed itself, and many a rush was attempted, but nature’s demands were more powerful than those of the spirit and it was all in vain”

“Phillips was most fortunate in making his bow to a senior audience under such circumstances, and it is given to but few athletes to make their initial appearance in the first flight under such circumstances. The game he played fully justified the action of Montreal’s managers in sending him out, and he was a valuable acquisition to the attack last night. He played a strong and fairly fast game, checking well and considering that he was up against the best forward on the ice, Scanlan, he is entitled to due credit for his performance. Hooper and Marshall divided the honors in the centre, each doing yeoman service, and each figured largely in the scoring”

“The Montreal defence was steadiness itself; both Boon and Bellingham playing easily, always looking for the puck. Nicholson was not pressed and did not have a great deal of work to do”

Another Montreal paper noted: “Nicholson, he of the generous outlines, was there whenever he was needed except once. Bellingham at point played a cool, collected game, and Boon, although he did not score, was, as alert, as swift, and as tricky as ever”

“Phillips, the new Montreal man, formerly of McGill and before that of Rat Portage, showed up fairly well”

“Scanlan gave some fine exhibitions of stick handling even at the very beginning and made some beautiful runs, twisting in and out among the opposing players and managing to pass both Boon and Bellingham, but his efforts were always came to naught, and like Marshall, who goes at things like a wild bull, charging with his head down and half the time seeing nothing but the puck, the feet of the men opposed to him, and the bottom of the goalposts, he had some painful mishaps”

“Gingras, Cadham and Kean all made fine efforts at times, but there was no joint play and that spoiled all the good they might have done”

“The two Fletts did a good deal of talking and coaching but at times when it was really necessary to play, seemed bewildered, and lost their opportunities, and incidentally their goals”

“Marshall drew it with his accustomed quickness before the echo of the whistle had well died away”

“Gardner did some good individual work”

“Marshall, as is his custom, drew the puck when the referee’s whistle blew for the first game”

“Boon, however, at this stage of the game was putting up an excellent article of hockey under the prevailing conditions and kept rushing the puck back as fast as the Winnipeg people could bring it down”

Final Score: 8-1 Montreal HC

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham at center, Gingras at RW, and Scanlan at LW

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Gardner at LW, and Phillips at RW

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
MontrealMarshallN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
MontrealMarshall or HooperN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
MontrealGardnerN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
MontrealHooperN/AN/A
WinnipegKeaneScanlanN/A
MontrealMarshall or GardnerMaybe GardnerBellingham

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 31 January 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Oleson was blocking splendidly and the two Fletts maintained a capable defence. On the forward line Scanlan, GIngras and Cadham were keeping the Montreal busy. Kean was working every minute, but unfortunately showed lack of judgment in his tactics which caused him to spend 5 minutes less than a whole half period on the fence”

“...Gingras, who played a sensational article throughout, banged the rubber into the net”

A Montreal paper reported: “During the overtime, a record was kept of the shots stopped in goal by the men at each end. Oleson stopped ten and Nicholson had two chalked up to his credit”

“There was no doubt that the loss of Gardner was a severe handicap to the Montreal team and there were many who averred that with the big wing man in his place right through the game there would have been a great difference in the scoring. This, of course, is problematical, but there can be no doubt that Gardner’s mishap was a big loss to the team”

“Blachford checked well, but he did not have the same strength as Gardner”

“Scanlan was without doubt the cleanest player on the ice during the two matches, and in addition, was undoubtedly the most finished forward player of all those on the ice. Scanlan went into everything, took his medicine without making any bones about it, and not once, in spite of what must have been pretty severe provocation, did he make any effort at retaliation. It was a creditable record of a good man. Boon, too, also ought to be spoken of in this matter. He played a steady telling game in both matches, and played his game without any resort to unfair methods. The nice play and the effectiveness of this man demonstrates that tip-top hockey can be played without batting opponents to little, just because some one on the side thinks it would be a good sort of game to play”

“However, it is was then that the Flett boys and Oleson came to the rescue, and the excellence of their work save the Victorias from what seemed like certain defeat”

“Hodge is not as good a man as Bellingham”

“Rod Flett showed up in better form then on his first appearance, and Magnes Flett played a steadier game at cover. He was in the game all the time helping out the forwards, backing up and down with the puck, and proved a valuable and useful man”

“The trouble with the Winnipeg forward line was that everybody wanted to play to Scanlan and the latter was altogether too well fed. Then the centre men had a bad habit of butting into other people’s territory and trying to do work that was not expected of them. Cadham is a nice player and held his own pretty well for a small man. Keane is an in and outer, and was good in spots and when he was bad he was as bad as possible”

“On the Montreal line, Phillips, Hooper and Marshall worked splendidly and were in the game all the time. Phillips lived up to the promises he gave of good work and played a steady and consistent game on his wing, and as he was playing on the best man on the ice [I believe this is referencing Scanlan] his work was noticeable. Hooper was up in the scoring line and his goals were neat affairs and well deserved”

“Both goalkeepers deserve a word. Both were pressed hard and Nicholson and Oleson played useful hockey”

Another Montreal paper noted: “The Montreal team would have won if Gardner had not been rendered useless”

“His [Gardner’] knockout, which as far as human judgment can be relied upon, prevented the Montrealers from winning the match is a thing that will never be satisfactorily cleared up”

“Considering this [having played an Intermediate game earlier in the day], Blatchford played magnificently”

“The defence on both sides was wonderful. Oleson, the white-haired boy of the Victorias, played twenty two times better than he did on Thursday, and the two Fletts did not talk, but attended strictly to business. Rod had evidently got over the fatigue of his hurried journey, and Magnus, in addition to holding his position at cover efficiently, did some effective bodying, which must have helped to physically wear out some of the men who came in contact with him”

“Nicholson, for Montreal, took things as calmly as if he were at home, and Hodge played a splendid game, carrying the puck several times close up to the enemy’s goals, and stopping shot after shot that passed Boon, without allowing Nicholson a chance to save”

“Boon, tricky, quick and yet collected, played a careful, steady game, and often left his position, particularly when Gardner was put out of business, to give aid wherever it was needed”

“Phillips played rough, but made some great runs, and it was the result of one of these runs that he managed to score the second goal. Marshall played his usual good, devil-may-care game, and if he did not score he tried hard enough. Gardner was brilliant while he lasted, and when Hooper scored the first point, it was Gardner who assisted him”

“He [Scanlan] played hockey by the book. His play was finished, but it did not have the necessary impetus behind it to make it count”

“Kean would be an admirable player if he would drop his rough and rowdy ways, with which he has made a rather unenviable reputation for himself. Cadham, in size resembling Boon, did some excellent individual work, and Gingras showed some of his old form”

“A curious thing in the early part of the match occurred when John Marshall was ruled off. The human automobile of the Montreal team started to go off but then thought better of it and finally decided to stay on”

Final Score: 2-2 (game ended in a draw due to curfew)

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham at center, Scanlan and Gingras on the wings

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Hodge at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Phillips and Gardner (replaced by Blachford due to injury) on the wings

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
MontrealHooperGardnerN/A
MontrealHooper or PhillipsN/AN/A
WinnipegGIngrasN/AN/A
WinnipegGingras or CadhamN/AN/A

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 2 February 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Oleson in the flags was brilliant. The two Fletts played a star game and formed an almost impassable bulwark in front of the nets”

“On the forward line Kean was at first unsteady, but he got his sea-legs in the second half and thereafter became a terror”

“Gingras at times hung back, but waited his chance frequently and made some individual rushes that were disconcerting”

“The Montreal defence did not play the effective article that it exhibited Saturday, though Hodge probably showed up better. Blatchford seemed somewhat off color, while the others were at about their ordinary”

“Nicholson, in goal for Montreal, stopped very satisfactorily, and his work will bear the closest scrutiny, but in general the visiting team created the impression that it was not much extended and was master of the situation all the time”

“Kean playing a beautiful game”

A Montreal paper reported: “The absence of Gardner was felt and the fact that he was off reduced the value of their attack to some extent, and though his substitute played an excellent game, he was not Gardner, nor did he possess the fine checking qualities of the other man”

“The Victorias played a wonderful defence game, and Oleson should have his name mentioned in the despatches for a distinguished service order. He played a fine game in front of the net, stopping many stiff shots, and he picked out a few puzzling drives in a manner that compelled admiration from friend and opponent alike. The two Flett boys showed that they could go under pressure, and both of them played steadily throughout, and were always watchful and wary. Winnipeg’s victory was won by these three men, rather than the forwards”

“The Montreal defense was certainly a shade off. Hodge played a much superior game to that of Saturday night, but the unity of the defence did not appear to be so well preserved and the Winnipeg scores were made on what looked like easy chances”

“Keane had a particularly aptitude for getting in the road and effectively spoiled many a run [for his team]. But if Keane was a bother to his fellows, he proved extremely useful on the whole, and when he steadied down to serious hockey, he was the whole thing and figured three times in the scoring list. Cadham played a nice game and made a feature of slipping in among the defence men when there was a rush. Marshall on the other side displayed a similar tendency, and both players were warned by the referee and were in imminent danger of being benched. Scanlan, as usual, played a nice game but was not as effective as he was usually along when he went in front of the net, but he was clean and careful and did a lot of hard work. Gingras hung back a lot, depending on a chance for a rush, and he succeeded in getting in some dangerous runs, but failed to locate the net”

Another Montreal paper noted: “Like on Saturday, the defence on either side was great. If Nicholson a hard time of it in the second half, and particularly in the latter part thereof, being left almost entirely alone to guard the goals, Oleson, who in some way or other seemed almost as fleshy as Nicholson last night, had a hot experience in the first half

The two Fletts aided him well, but even with their best endeavors, the shots that were rained in on his stronghold came so swiftly and were so many that he had to use all his wits and all his guinness to turn a number of them aside.

The two goal-keepers were fairly even in their work. The two points would have been equal if it had not been that Rod Flett’s opponent was not his equal as far as physical condition went”

“Hodge did his best, but Rod Flett more than recovered from the fatigue which made him an uncertain quantity on Friday, was perfectly cool and collected, and with his fine well-fitted-out form, his red jersey, his white well-fitting knickerbockers, and his long black stockings, which in the distance through the haze that prevailed looked almost like long-legged boots, and with his immaculate white gauntlets, he looked like Life Guard in undress uniform”

“Magnus Flett, who also played a beautiful game had a somewhat similar advantage over Boon, for the latter was compelled at times to play cover point, rover and forward all combined. He certainly is a little wonder. He is not big enough to do any heavy checking, but he is quick enough to prevent any heavy checking being one to him”

“Phillips worked hard and made some great attempts to score, but seemed to run over the puck often”

“Blachford did wonderful work, but he was not sufficiently strong to keep up the pace of the company he was in. Hooper played a steady and careful game, and Marshall, with the bulldog tenacity for which he has become noted, and with his careless rushing in where more careful fellows would fear to go, managed to score”

“Little Cadham, Gingras, Kean, who seemed to have undergone a change of heart and to have taken a pledge to try and give up knocking out other people, although at times the temptation was too strong for him, and Scanlan, who always plays a gentlemanly game, were almost perfect in their work”

“Marshall, with his usual alertness, drew the puck”

“Marshall again had the best of the draw”

Final Score: 4-2 Winnipeg

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham at center, Scanlan and Gingras on the wings

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Hodge at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Phillips and Blachford on the wings

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A
WinnipegScanlanN/AN/A
MontrealMarshallPhillipsN/A
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A
MontrealMarshall or PhillipsN/AN/A
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A

Winnipeg Victorias vs Montreal HC, 4 February 1903
A Winnipeg paper wrote: quoting the Montreal Herald- “While Phillips was the star of the ice, Montreal’s other three forwards were in great form. Hooper did not figure in the scoring, but was effective as if he had. He worked in close and placed the puck for the others to shoot. But his best work was the way he fell back on the defence, and time after time broke up the Vics.’ attack. Towards the end he played second cover point and was as sure as he could well be. Marshall, too, did great work in centre. Smith did not show up much in attack, but he was doing good work by keeping Scanlan out of the play and justified the change in the team. The weakest part of the Montreal team was the defence; Boon played a corking game and Bellingham was good, too. They did not work any too well together at times. Poor lifting and looseness in clearing made it look very dangerous more than once. Perhaps next to Phillips honors go to Kean. In spite of his disgraceful attack on Phillips at the end of the match, and his generally rough tactics, it must be admitted he is a player any team should be proud of. He has speed and is as strong a skater as there is playing to-day. He is a heady player and was dangerous till the gong had actually sounded. The other three were not in the same class. Scanlan was held down by Smith till within ten minutes of time, when Smith tired and onl then did Scanlan get in those brilliant runs of his which the Montreal crowd know so well. Gingras was no match for Phillips. Cadham played a fine game before he had to retire with an injured ankle. Dan Flett, who took his place, was of little use, except in body work, and he is certainly a peach at that”

“The Montrealers made some changes on their line up which proved beneficial. Bellingham was on at point in place of Hodge and Smith took Blachford’s place on the forwards. The latter division of the Montreal team put up a good article but the defence did not appear any too brilliant”

A Montreal paper reported: “The Montreal team did well by putting Smith on. He did not figure in the scoring, but he did a lot of good, steady checking, and kept Scanlan busy. Phillips went over to Gingras’ side and performed excellent service there. The presence of Bellingham was a distinct improvement to the team, and there was a finish about his play that was always encouraging”

“Winnipeg was unfortunate in losing the services of Cadham near the end of the first half, as Dan Flett, who replaced him, though a big man, was not by means the good player Cadham was”

“Phillips made another of his wonderful runs”

Another Montreal paper noted: “‘Dicky’ Boon, the wonderful little captain of the Montreal team…”

“He [Cadham] is a bright little man; a clever little player, and although Montreal will swear by Boon, his pluck and his good performance on the ice will always be remembered when this series of wonderful Stanley CUp matches is spoken of”

“He [Keane] is a fine player, and it seems strange that a man like he, who has sufficient ability to help win a match by mere good play should continually lay himself open to that sort of thing [he was kicked out of the game near the end]”

“Phillips proved himself a coming star last night. With a little more care, and a little more finish he will become one of the most brilliant players seen here. He played on a side of the team to which he is an utter stranger, and if it had not been for that, he would probably have scored much oftener”

“Every man did his duty, and Smith, who was probably the weakest as far as general condition went, did what was expected of him, and kept Scanlan from doing any effective work”

“Nicholson in goal, Boon at cover, Hooper, Marshall and Phillips on the forwards, all did wonderfully last night, and Bellingham, considering that he has been under the weather, played a really brilliant game”

A scoring table for the series was provided:


NameTeamGoals
MarshallMontreal7
HooperMontreal5
KeanWinnipeg5
PhillipsMontreal3
GIngrasWinnipeg2
GardnerMontreal1
ScanlanWinnipeg1

Final Score: 4-1 Montreal

Rosters
Winnipeg: Oleson in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Keane at rover, Cadham (replaced by D. Flett) at center, Scanlan (LW) and Gingras (RW) on the wings

Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Marshall at center, Phillips (LW) and Smith (RW) on the wings

TeamGoal ScorerAssistAssist
MontrealHooper or MarshallN/AN/A
WinnipegKeaneN/AN/A
MontrealPhillipsN/AN/A
MontrealPhillipsN/AN/A
MontrealMarshallHooperN/A

Series Totals
NameTeamPositionGoalsAssistsPoints
Archie HooperMontreal HCRover516
Billy Keane (Kean)Winnipeg VictoriasRover505
Jack MarshallMontreal HCCenter303
Tommy PhillipsMontreal HCWing213
Jimmy GardnerMontreal HCWing112
Fred ScanlanWinnipeg VictoriasWing112
Tony GingrasWinnipeg VictoriasWing101
William BellinghamMontreal HCPoint011
Maybe GardnerMontreal HCWing011
Hooper or MarshallMontreal HCN/A202
Cadham or GIngrasWinnipeg VictoriasN/A101
Gardner or MarshallMontreal HCN/A101
Marshall or PhillipsMontreal HCN/A101

You gotta love oldtimey reporting.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,382
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Regina, SK
followed that up with two years where he played most of the games, but couldn't impact a game the way he'd once been able to, and his teams were just okay as a result. While the stats were excellent in these two years, the game reports show that he was well past his prime. Kind of reminds me of the career arc of Alex Ovechkin, who kept up the big numbers deep into his thirties, after a mid-career slump, even when watching the games tells you that he's half the guy he once was. There - I linked Irvin to my favourite player. Now I'm happy
Wow! Before I got to this point in your post, those were my exact thoughts.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,382
7,737
Regina, SK
OK, So I've read the Dick Irvin case, and it's pretty good. Whatever one concludes, you have to respect the research. Just the sheer amount of work finding all that and putting it together is commendable. Whatever it translates to in a ranking, we can all agree that we can be more certain of it.

I get the sense that with Irwin, what you see offensively is what you get. His numbers tell the story of his dominance. So we have a handful of good seasons at the top level, some less good, and a couple that even DrJC isn't in love with (I'd have assumed they were dynamite seasons without his research).

So what to do about his amateur numbers? DrJC explained who some of the names were. But if they never played against top level players then they're almost useless for comparison's sake. Thankfully there are many that did, so we would be able to do some extrapolating. Because if we don't, what does being by far the best scorer in Manitoba amateur hockey equate to? Leading the PCHA in scoring? Being 3rd? Being 10th? Being a sub? We have to at least try to quantify this in some way.

I have done something like this before. Who I did it for escapes me. Maybe I'll remember it by the time I'm done writing all this..... was it Moose Watson??....... maybe?

First of all, you can't expect defensemen to score reliably , so you can't take their offensive numbers seriously. There are a couple recognizable players, but DrJC will have to clarify whether they were forwards in Manitoba, because they are multi-positional.

For the Manitoba seasons, the important names are:
- Stan Marples
- Jocko Anderson
- Spunk Sparrow
- Harry Scott
- @Dr John Carlson can confirm: Slim Halderson? forward or D?
- Walter Smaill: very important to know as well, was he a forward?

For the Sask seasons, we have:

- Stan Marples
- Spunk Sparrow
- George Hay
- Rusty Crawford (forward, right?)
- Rabbitt McVeigh

Here's what we know about their consolidated VsX from seasons played at the top level:

Marples: paced for scores of 19, 25, and 43 in his three PCHA seasons (age 25, 26 and 27)
Anderson: paced for scores of 78, 18, 13, 22, 23 and 16 in his six seasons (ages 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32)
Sparrow: paced for 41, 27, 57, 75, and 50 (ages 24, 25, 26, 27, 28)
Scott: 39 and 25 (ages 28 & 29)
Hay: an illustrious career, actual (not projected) VsX equivalents of 61, 77, 79, 63, 82, 61, 90, 66, 53, 38, 16 (ages 24-34)
Crawford: from age 27-31, posted scores of 15, 56, 65, 62, 36, 15, 33, then played those 2 years with Irvin, then came back at 34-38 with scores of 30, 36, 21, 40, 0
McVeigh: from age 23-35, posted scores of 38, 26, 26, 40, 29, 44, 33, 28, 45, 33, 54, 43, 59, 38.
Smaill: from age 20-32, posted scores of 60, 41, 40, 38, 35, 33, 30, 28, 19, 17, 9 and 4 (but was a swingman playing multiple positions including point and coverpoint, will assume his best 5 scores were forward seasons 1906, 1907, 1911, 1913, 1914, correct me if that's demonstrably wrong)

Aside from Hay, none of this was very impressive.

BUT, the point is, Irvin was a lot better than them.

In Manitoba, Irvin's per-game scoring (at ages 21-25) was:
- 82% higher than Marples (22-26)
- 39% higher than Sparrow (19-20)
- 304% higher than Anderson (21-22)
- 35% higher than Scott (32)
- 135% higher than Smaill (32)

In Saskatchewan, Irvin's per-game scoring (at ages 27-28) was:
- 110% higher than Marples (28-29)
- 79% higher than Sparrow (25-26)
- 192% higher than Hay (21-22)
- 105% higher than Crawford (34-35)
- 128% higher than McVeigh (22-23) (counts the 2nd season in which he was not on the leaderboard that was posted)

The point is of course not to take the least favorable example ("Irvin was in his prime yet only 35% better than Scott, who was a scrub at the NHA level and was past his prime") or the most favourable ("He nearly tripled George Hay's production") but to take all of these data points, weigh them and come up with a composite of how good he likely was compared to all of these.

I can factor Smaill and Halderson in later if they are relevant comparisons.
EDIT: factored in Smaill. Halderson was a forward but has no comparable seasons as a forward at the top levels for me to compare with.

I also can't do this right now. Gotta go play crib with my grandpa. Will be back in a few hours. But this will be the framework for whatever conclusion that I draw.
 
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Dr John Carlson

Registered User
Dec 21, 2011
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There are a couple recognizable players, but DrJC will have to clarify whether they were forwards in Manitoba, because they are multi-positional.

All three of Smaill, Halderson, and Crawford were forwards in the seasons I looked at, with all three of them pitching in at rover for a few games here and there.

Actually, brain fart - Saskatchewan didn't have the rover at the time, so Crawford only played forward. Not that it matters for your purposes.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
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OK, here's what I did. Is it a fudge? Yes, absolutely it's a fudge. It has to be.

I took every comparable player and put them into a spreadsheet with their actual VsX equivalency scores by age. Based on how their careers appeared to progress, I built realistic career curves for all of them, recognizing of course that no one's career has a perfect curve. Hay went from 79-63-82-61-90 from age 26-30, for instance. I simply filled in their "would be" VsX scores based on the ones we know they achieved and at what ages.

Some were easy, like Crawford. He was consistently at about 34 during his early, mid and late 30s. So I gave him that exact score at age 34 and 35.

Smaill was consistently in the 40 range throughout the period covered. He didn't require a lot of guesswork.

Jocko Anderson had a huge spike at age 27, then was just a sub/scrub. I assumed he built up to that high score slowly throughout his 20s, but that it still mostly came out of nowhere.

A player like McVeigh, who went pro at 23, just had scores assigned at age 21-22 as though he was easing into the scores he was about to post in the WCHL.

Same thing with Hay, who went pro at 24.

And so on for the rest of them.

That way I had an estimation of what kind of producer each player may have been at the top levels, if they were playing there, coupled with their "actual" scores.

That gave me 20 data points that were basically asking this:

- what kind of score is 82% better than a 22-year old marples, since Irvin outscored 22-year old Marples by that much?
- what kind of score is 39% better than a 23-year old sparrow, since that's what Irvin did,
- and same with all the rest.

(that said, Irvin didn't outscore Marples at age 22 by exactly 82%, he did so over a period of a few years. the individual seasons may have been wacky - perhaps 26%, 148%, 92% and 109% - which would have yielded all over the place answers, so using their larger samples over multiple seasons as DrJC presented, allowed me to smooth it out and still end up in the same place)

The average of these 22 data points is....

- 48.5 in the 12 data points from Manitoba (Irvin was 21-25)
- 71.9 in the 8 data points from Saskatchewan (Irvin was 27-28)


So if we were to try to simulate a career curve for Irvin using his known data, the average extrapolations from amateur, and his age, we might get this:

Manitoba​
1914
Dick Irvin​
32​
Manitoba​
1915
Dick Irvin​
44​
Manitoba​
1916
Dick Irvin​
54​
PCHA​
1917
Dick Irvin​
83
Manitoba​
1918
Dick Irvin​
64
Sask​
1920
Dick Irvin​
72
Sask​
1921
Dick Irvin​
72
WCHL​
1922
Dick Irvin​
48
WCHL​
1923
Dick Irvin​
28
WCHL​
1924
Dick Irvin​
59
WCHL​
1925
Dick Irvin​
51
WHL​
1926
Dick Irvin​
95
NHL​
1927
Dick Irvin​
100​
NHL​
1928
Dick Irvin​
23​
NHL​
1929
Dick Irvin​
24​

I know those earlier scores don't all look super impressive on their surface, but that's what you see with many great players in their sub-prime seasons. And when you replace the big fat zeroes that were on his resume before, and replace them with those, it makes a big difference.

This would give him a 3y-5y-7y-10y score of:

player​
3y​
5y​
7y​
10y​
Dunderdale​
94857871
Irvin
93847870
Roberts​
94837562
Oliver​
87​
79​
76​
70​
Cleghorn​
84777266
Walsh​
102856244
Russell​
89786951
Harris​
82​
74​
68​
61​
Noble​
74716759
Broadbent​
77666053
MacDougall​
91725538
Darragh​
69​
66​
63​
57
Marshall​
72645341
Routh​
93564028

...and that's a guy you can get behind. Maybe not a guy you jump to rank #1, or even in your top-5 necessarily, with defensemen, intangibles-guys, and early players to consider. But you can at least look at Dick Irvin and say, "...yeah. he belongs here. These are the guys he should be ranked with." look how much he mirrors Dunderdale!

You know, I have to say after this enormous fudge, it's just so satisfying to see the numbers come out to something that makes sense. What if they said 30? or 130? there was a relatively narrow range these could come out to that would pass the smell test, and I think they did.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,382
7,737
Regina, SK
Last thing: what I did was just a really quick-and-dirty form of what @Iain Fyffe and all his proprietary spreadsheets do: determine how strong a league is by overlapping players and how they performed in that league and at what ages.

If you look at his page: The Meritorious Men of the 1910s Irvin shows up pretty well. For him to be where he is, Iain HAS to have included his time as an amateur and considered it to be around the level that I did.

1Taylor, Cyclone1906-192342116.5Yes
2Lalonde, Newsy1905-19265113.4Yes
3Pitre, Didier1904-192372110.3Yes
4Johnson, Moose1904-192236108.1Yes
5Patrick, Lester1904-192634103.5Yes
6Gerard, Eddie1910-192336103.1Yes
7Smith, Tommy1906-19205102.9Yes
8Vezina, Georges1911-1926G102.7Yes
9Lehman, Hugh1907-1926G101.9Yes
10Malone, Joe1909-19245101.7Yes
11Cleghorn, Sprague1910-19263297.0Yes
12Holmes, Hap1910-1926G96.9Yes
13Foyston, Frank1912-19265696.0Yes
14Walker, Jack1908-19264695.7Yes
15Cleghorn, Odie1910-19267594.8No
16Cameron, Harry1912-19263294.5Yes
17Darragh, Jack1910-1924789.5Yes
18Irvin, Dick1913-1926589.2Yes
19Hall, Joe1901-19193788.6Yes
20Morris, Bernie1911-19255788.6No
21Prodger, Goldie1911-19253688.6No
22Harris, Smokey1911-1925687.8No
23Griffis, Si1902-19193487.0Yes
24Rowe, Bobby1903-19263785.8No
25Cook, Lloyd1913-19253285.4No
26LeSueur, Percy1904-1916G85.1Yes
27Dunderdale, Tommy1907-19244585.1Yes
28Stanley, Barney1912-19266283.6Yes
29Shore, Hamby1905-1918283.1No
30Laviolette, Jack1904-19181782.4Yes
31Roberts, Gord1910-1920679.7Yes
32Ross, Art1905-1918178.8Yes
33Oatman, Eddie1910-19264778.8No
34Hyland, Harry1909-1918778.1Yes
35Patrick, Frank1904-19243776.3No
36Loughlin, Clem1911-19263275.8No
37Crawford, Rusty1911-1926675.3Yes
38Smaill, Walter1905-19182475.0No
XRankin, Frank1911-1915462.1Yes
XBaker, Hobey1912-1916460.3Yes
XDavidson, Scotty1912-19147255.8Yes
XMcNamara, George1907-19171747.1Yes
XRuttan, Jack1909-1918246.8Yes
XMaxwell, Steamer1910-191546.7Yes

Bolded players are now on the final list. Players with bolded years are up for voting in the current round.

I'd say that for the most part, our group and Iain have come to fairly similar conclusions. He might say we jumped the gun on Ross and Lesueur (and might jump the gun on Patrick) and that we're ultimately going to be too hard on Cleghorn and Darragh, but overall very similar results on the 1910s players.

And we are considering and voting in Irvin right where Ian likely thinks we should.
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
31,052
9,905
Ontario
If you guys have to move on I completely understand. But it’ll definitely take me a bit to vote as I’m in Toronto for the weekend with @seventieslord and I’ve been so busy preparing for the trip this past week that I’m behind on a lot of the conversations and need to play some major catch up. Went to the Leafs game last night. I’m FAR from a Leafs fan but man what a memorable experience that was!
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,883
2,509
Ok, I just sent out the reminder PMs. Once we get enough participants (not GMs!) I'll post the results at the next round.

EDIT- participants instead of GMs.
 
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