ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
With more time I will be able to contribute more on a per round basis than the last 2
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 9
- Thread starter seventieslord
- Start date
With more time I will be able to contribute more on a per round basis than the last 2
Ok, cool. If no one objects, we can lengthen the debate stage this week to see how that goes. We'll shoot for the voting deadline to be Wednesday evening, but that can be moved up or back a little bit as the pace of discussion dictates.
Marty Walsh
I feel a bit silly doing one of these for a player for whom I only have 2 seasons, but I guess I just did one for Routh, and he had just 3 (and nothing significant in terms of quotes, unlike what I have for Walsh- this is likely a result of the difference in coverage between the early/mid-1890s and when Walsh played some 15-ish years later). Walsh had a pretty short career, playing high-level hockey for only 6 years (and another two with McGill University). In this short career, however, Walsh showed himself to be one of the preeminent scorers of the time, consistently placing within the top range of scorers during his time in the ECAHA/ECHA and NHA. His 1910-11 NHA season, while outside the scope of what I was researching, is particularly impressive to me, as he led the league in scoring while competing against top-tier talent such as prime Newsy Lalonde (who would lead the PCHA in scoring the following season), Odie Cleghorn, Ernie Russell, Didier Pitre, and Jack Darragh (to name players have either already been added to the list or are currently eligible). Selection of Quotes (1908 and 1909)
1908
“Marty Walsh at centre did great work. He has lots of speed, handles the stick in good shape, and is never afraid to bore right in on the nets, which move means much in a hard game. He is also a dangerous shot, and piled up several goals for the Senators. Mary is a fixture at centre”
“Ross, however, found Taylor and Pulford an impregnable combination, and to make his case all the harder Westwick, Walsh, Phillips, and Smith were always checking back with the speed of locomotives”
“No one expected great things of Marty Walsh, but the Kingston boy also covered himself with glory, scoring five of the Ottawa goals. His work around the nets was remarkable, he batting the puck into the cage on no less than three occasions when Hern had blocked shots from the other forwards”
“Walsh and Taylor displayed an unpleasant readiness to poke, hammer and bump”
“Walsh is a worker and not afraid to go in on the nets, but he has some nasty tricks which will get him into trouble with officials. He got off fairly lightly tonight with two penalties”
“while Walsh and Phillips were in the game Ottawa had little difficulty in keeping the puck”
“Taylor and Walsh, the other high-priced men of the Ottawa aggregation, did not show up as well as they were expected to do”
“Marty Walsh was the bad boy of the lot; the Ottawa centre was out of the game five times for a total of twenty-one minutes”
“Marty Walsh did not show up as well as he did against the Wanderers”
“Marty Walsh tallied four times through pretty work close in on the nets”
“Next to him [Taylor] and Lesueur Marty Walsh was the brightest player of the evening. Somehow or other he always managed to be in the front of the Montreal net when his presence there could be of any use”
“Walsh, on the other hand, always in front and in the centre of the net when the puck went to the Montreal end, calmly walked in and scored again”
“Walsh worked aggressively and effectively around the nets”
“Marty Walsh was also a tower of strength. Marty’s work was very effective if not always conspicuous and although battered and bodied by the heavy Quebec defence, the little Kingstonian managed to get in his usual goal tallying”
“Walsh, the little Kinstonian upheld his reputation of being one of the most useful members of the Ottawa seven, always in that bad spot in front of his opponent’s net when a pass comes across”
Walsh was the first team center of the all star teams put together by fans during the half time of one of the games part-way through the season. Ernie Russell was on the second team.
“Marty Walsh, as usual, took big chances in front of the nets, going right in at every opportunity”
“Bowie’s stick-handling was a feature, but Walsh and Westwick watched him closely, and the great rover had little chance to shine”
“Bowie, Walsh and Taylor pulled off the star plays of the entertainment”
“Walsh, of Ottawa, can deliver the goods in neat packages”
“Marshall was no match for Marty Walsh”
Walsh took his usual number of bumps through going right in on the nets, but took it like a veteran. He did some pretty work in this line”
“Marshall’s best work likewise was in holding down Walsh, and in this Marshall succeeded better in the first half than in the second. Walsh is a dangerous man around the nets and takes a lot of watching”
“Walsh as usual came in for a lot of punishment going in close, and played an effective game”
“Marty Walsh who is the best man in the league to go in on the nets”
“Walsh was effectively tied up in centre ice, and Westwick was never very prominent. Both he and Walsh, however, did a lot of telling work in breaking up plays”
“Marty Walsh also proved a great goer on the soft surface, scoring no less than seven of the Ottawa goals. Marty was the hardest worker of the night and his shooting was a feature. Had Marty been given such chances in the Wanderer match, the Stanley Cup would probably have been in Ottawa today”
“Marty Walsh winds up at the top of the league in scoring. He got 25”
1909
“Stuart, Dey, Walsh and Gilmour doing phenomenal work. Their combination was excellent, and their checking back was remarkably effective”
“Marty Walsh is very quick but Harry Smith in a more quiet way is quite as effective”
“In centre ice Walsh and Stuart were fair. Walsh being the better of the pair and perhaps the best of the line. At that, he did not play up to his best form”
“In centre Walsh and Stuart, while willing to go in on the nets, are away off in their shooting”
“Even Mary Walsh could not score”
“Walsh, who is usually the greatest scorer, missed chance after chance”
“Walsh lived up to his reputation as the greatest scorer in the East”
“Stuart and Walsh did beautiful work together in mid-ice but Wanderers watched Stuart closely and the Ottawa man as the result was soon carrying a number of bruises. Walsh too was given close attention but the pair worked on with unfaltering determination”
“Marty Walsh again showed himself Johnny-on-the-spot when a goal was needed”
“...the manner in which Stuart, Walsh, Kerr and Gilmour checked back was disastrous to the most heroic efforts of the Wanderers”
“Walsh and Stuart did beautiful work in mid ice, while Gilmour and Kerr worked the boards to perfection. Stuart helped his defence out in grand fashion, while Walsh, aggressive and plucky as usual, was a source of terror to the Wanderer defence. Walsh netted three goals and assisted in tallying many more”
“Marty Walsh played his usual heady and hard game, and was responsible for a good part of the scoring. Walsh was never seen to better advantage than last night”
“... Stuart and Walsh breaking up a number of Quebec rushes”
Part way through the 1909 season, a scoring table was published in an Ottawa paper. Walsh was leading with 29 goals, Bruce Stuart was second with 19.
“Kerr and Walsh showing up especially well in boring in on the nets”
“Marty Walsh played his usually dashing game”
”Strict ruling, particularly by Bowie, on off-sides, caused a gnashing of teeth in the Ottawa crowd, for Walsh and Stuart are inclined to a quick passing game that naturally is followed by man off-sides”
The Montreal Star published a scoring table at the end of the season. Marty Walsh led the league with 42 goals, Herb Jordan came in second with 30.
“Marty Walsh at centre did great work. He has lots of speed, handles the stick in good shape, and is never afraid to bore right in on the nets, which move means much in a hard game. He is also a dangerous shot, and piled up several goals for the Senators. Mary is a fixture at centre”
“Ross, however, found Taylor and Pulford an impregnable combination, and to make his case all the harder Westwick, Walsh, Phillips, and Smith were always checking back with the speed of locomotives”
“No one expected great things of Marty Walsh, but the Kingston boy also covered himself with glory, scoring five of the Ottawa goals. His work around the nets was remarkable, he batting the puck into the cage on no less than three occasions when Hern had blocked shots from the other forwards”
“Walsh and Taylor displayed an unpleasant readiness to poke, hammer and bump”
“Walsh is a worker and not afraid to go in on the nets, but he has some nasty tricks which will get him into trouble with officials. He got off fairly lightly tonight with two penalties”
“while Walsh and Phillips were in the game Ottawa had little difficulty in keeping the puck”
“Taylor and Walsh, the other high-priced men of the Ottawa aggregation, did not show up as well as they were expected to do”
“Marty Walsh was the bad boy of the lot; the Ottawa centre was out of the game five times for a total of twenty-one minutes”
“Marty Walsh did not show up as well as he did against the Wanderers”
“Marty Walsh tallied four times through pretty work close in on the nets”
“Next to him [Taylor] and Lesueur Marty Walsh was the brightest player of the evening. Somehow or other he always managed to be in the front of the Montreal net when his presence there could be of any use”
“Walsh, on the other hand, always in front and in the centre of the net when the puck went to the Montreal end, calmly walked in and scored again”
“Walsh worked aggressively and effectively around the nets”
“Marty Walsh was also a tower of strength. Marty’s work was very effective if not always conspicuous and although battered and bodied by the heavy Quebec defence, the little Kingstonian managed to get in his usual goal tallying”
“Walsh, the little Kinstonian upheld his reputation of being one of the most useful members of the Ottawa seven, always in that bad spot in front of his opponent’s net when a pass comes across”
Walsh was the first team center of the all star teams put together by fans during the half time of one of the games part-way through the season. Ernie Russell was on the second team.
“Marty Walsh, as usual, took big chances in front of the nets, going right in at every opportunity”
“Bowie’s stick-handling was a feature, but Walsh and Westwick watched him closely, and the great rover had little chance to shine”
“Bowie, Walsh and Taylor pulled off the star plays of the entertainment”
“Walsh, of Ottawa, can deliver the goods in neat packages”
“Marshall was no match for Marty Walsh”
Walsh took his usual number of bumps through going right in on the nets, but took it like a veteran. He did some pretty work in this line”
“Marshall’s best work likewise was in holding down Walsh, and in this Marshall succeeded better in the first half than in the second. Walsh is a dangerous man around the nets and takes a lot of watching”
“Walsh as usual came in for a lot of punishment going in close, and played an effective game”
“Marty Walsh who is the best man in the league to go in on the nets”
“Walsh was effectively tied up in centre ice, and Westwick was never very prominent. Both he and Walsh, however, did a lot of telling work in breaking up plays”
“Marty Walsh also proved a great goer on the soft surface, scoring no less than seven of the Ottawa goals. Marty was the hardest worker of the night and his shooting was a feature. Had Marty been given such chances in the Wanderer match, the Stanley Cup would probably have been in Ottawa today”
“Marty Walsh winds up at the top of the league in scoring. He got 25”
1909
“Stuart, Dey, Walsh and Gilmour doing phenomenal work. Their combination was excellent, and their checking back was remarkably effective”
“Marty Walsh is very quick but Harry Smith in a more quiet way is quite as effective”
“In centre ice Walsh and Stuart were fair. Walsh being the better of the pair and perhaps the best of the line. At that, he did not play up to his best form”
“In centre Walsh and Stuart, while willing to go in on the nets, are away off in their shooting”
“Even Mary Walsh could not score”
“Walsh, who is usually the greatest scorer, missed chance after chance”
“Walsh lived up to his reputation as the greatest scorer in the East”
“Stuart and Walsh did beautiful work together in mid-ice but Wanderers watched Stuart closely and the Ottawa man as the result was soon carrying a number of bruises. Walsh too was given close attention but the pair worked on with unfaltering determination”
“Marty Walsh again showed himself Johnny-on-the-spot when a goal was needed”
“...the manner in which Stuart, Walsh, Kerr and Gilmour checked back was disastrous to the most heroic efforts of the Wanderers”
“Walsh and Stuart did beautiful work in mid ice, while Gilmour and Kerr worked the boards to perfection. Stuart helped his defence out in grand fashion, while Walsh, aggressive and plucky as usual, was a source of terror to the Wanderer defence. Walsh netted three goals and assisted in tallying many more”
“Marty Walsh played his usual heady and hard game, and was responsible for a good part of the scoring. Walsh was never seen to better advantage than last night”
“... Stuart and Walsh breaking up a number of Quebec rushes”
Part way through the 1909 season, a scoring table was published in an Ottawa paper. Walsh was leading with 29 goals, Bruce Stuart was second with 19.
“Kerr and Walsh showing up especially well in boring in on the nets”
“Marty Walsh played his usually dashing game”
”Strict ruling, particularly by Bowie, on off-sides, caused a gnashing of teeth in the Ottawa crowd, for Walsh and Stuart are inclined to a quick passing game that naturally is followed by man off-sides”
The Montreal Star published a scoring table at the end of the season. Marty Walsh led the league with 42 goals, Herb Jordan came in second with 30.
Scoring Tables (not counting the points that are disputed)
1908 (ECAHA)
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Tommy Phillips | Ottawa HC | 1 | 22 | 12 | 34 |
| 2 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 25 | 5 | 30 |
| 3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 20 | 7 | 27 |
| 4 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 2 | 23 | 3 | 26 |
| 5 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 12 | 12 | 24 |
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 1 | 38 | 5 | 43 |
| 2 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 29 | 4 | 33 |
| 3 | Bruce Stuart | Ottawa HC | 2 | 20 | 11 | 31 |
| 4 | Dubbie Kerr | Ottawa HC | 3 | 17 | 7 | 24 |
| 5 | Chubby Power | Quebec HC | 2 | 18 | 3 | 21 |
Scoring Tables (counting disputed points; split points worth .5 (or .33) points, maybe points given full credit but not added to goals or assists)
1908 (ECAHA)
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Tommy Phillips | Ottawa HC | 1 | 24.5 | 15.33 | 41.83 |
| 2 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 27.33 | 5.5 | 35.83 |
| T-3 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 2 | 27 | 3.5 | 30.5 |
| T-3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 23.5 | 7 | 30.5 |
| 5 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 12 | 13 | 26 |
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 1 | 41.33 | 7 | 49.33 |
| 2 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 31.5 | 4 | 36.5 |
| 3 | Bruce Stuart | Ottawa HC | 2 | 20.83 | 13 | 33.83 |
| 4 | Dubbie Kerr | Ottawa HC | 3 | 19.83 | 7 | 26.83 |
| 5 | Chubby Power | Quebec HC | 2 | 19 | 3.5 | 24.5 |
I will not tolerate slander of this kind-
"Smaill’s shots from the side were a feature”
"Smaill and Coulson are of similar type- speedy, heady and dogged. They are always working and are never prone to let their covers run away from them"
“Smaill was the most effective man of the quartette"
“Smaill was the pick of the Montreal forwards and played cleverly, although he shared in his team mates failing of weak shooting”
“Smaill was the best man for Montreal"
"The forwards rambled all over the ice, and under the close covering of Sargent and Smaill, who played excellently for Montreal, their quartette never got working smoothly”
“Smaill, a stocky little chap with a bundle of useful speed, who played half-back for the Westmount rugby team, was the best of the visitors and showed a willingness to rush in and take all kinds of body-checks from Baird and Pulford. He can shoot, and was about the most aggressive man on the ice"
"Montreal’s defence, Brownrigg and Smaill, was pretty effective, and the same might be said of that of Ottawa”
“Brownrigg and Smaill especially did some nice work at point and cover, and even big Harvey Pulford was sent sprawling several times in attempting to carry the rubber into the enemy’s territory"
“There was general surprise when the teams lined out last night and it was seen that Hooper, the Kenora star, who was brought in to strengthen the Wanderer defence, was not out with the champions and that Smaill was out at the cover-point position. Wanderers were evidently afraid that Hooper was not in condition for the hard game before the team and that it was better to play a strong finisher like Smaill than a man who might weaken at the critical moment”
“The playing of Smaill proved a fortunate move for Wanderers. He was not very prominent in the first half, but in the second, when the team had to brace up or be beaten, he playing in fine form”
“Kennedy made a good cover point for Vics, but did not show the reserve or the speed that Smaill did in the second half. Smaill was as hard a man to get by, but he rushed effectively”
“It was not that Wanderer as a team won, but it was due almost entirely to the individual efforts of Walter Smaill and Cecil Blatchford that the red-barred Rebels carried away the bay leaves. When their fellows were spiritless and dejected, these two were enthusiastic in their onslaughts on the VIctoria net. They pegged and plugged and these boys were the pivot on which the whole affair turned”
“Gilmour and Russell starred for the Victorias; Ross and Smaill for Wanderers”
“Walter Smaill played at cover and this made the defence speedy and also strong in close checking”
“He [Smaill] showed himself to be in good form and proved very effective against the Quebec forwards"
Smaill, the man many people were doubtful about, proved himself easily one of the best defence men in the business. He checks beautifully and has all kinds of speed. His sensational rush down the ice and scoring unassisted was one of the prettiest plays of the night"
“The work of the Wanderer men was superior to that of the Ottawa couple [comparing defenses], and Walter Smaill was the choice of the fourteen men on the ice. Smaill played a useful checking game at cover, and was down the ice more often than Taylor. He was direct in this play and used the shortest route to the net”
“As in Quebec, Smaill worked to excellent effect and was certainly the most consistent player on the ice. Ross was more showy in his stick handling, but Ross was not so direct in his methods”
“Ross and Smaill were steady in defensive work, never allowing themselves to be drawn out, and always alert to jump into the attack. Ross stopped dozens of hard shots himself and got going in fine style in the second hal in rushing”
“Smaill continues to surprise those who thought he would never show anything better than his last season form with Montreal. His offensive game was as good as his attack, and his daring rushes were among the features of the game”
“When Wanderers were talking of bringing on Barney Holden, Big Bill Nicholson said he didn’t see that Holden had anything on Smaill”
“Smaill, who has hitherto been considered as just outside the first rank, won his spurs Saturday night”
“Smaill was the star of the Wanderer side and the player that was thought only good enough at the start of the season to fill in when there was no better man in sight looks like the most effective man of the seven. He was more successful than Ross by far in getting away and his rushing, dead in on the net, was one of the features of the match. He made an effective cover and in the second half Johnston was frequently dropped back so that Smaill might go up and help the line with his daring, dashing work. He has turned the tide for his side in three tight games on Arena ice, first against Victoria, then Ottawa and now Shamrock”
“Ross, Smaill and Glass were the strong men on the Cupholders"
“It is a well known fact that in hockey the man who does the real hard work, who schemes and then travels with the puck the entire distance of the rink, escaping a dozen dangers, is shorn of the credit he deserves in favor of the men who happens to be near the net and shoves it in.
But in this particular case that will not be so, and the official credit will be given to Walter Smaill.
“This, because he deserves it and because Leseur is not anxious for the honor.
It was a great duel between two of the finest hockey players in the world, and Smaill won out”
“But if Wanderers as a team are lucky it is Walter Smaill who carries the horseshoes for the seven. The goal that Smaill netted in overtime last night was the fourth that he has scored in the last two years saving the day for the champions. It was Smaill who turned the tide for Wanderers each time against Ottawa, against Victoria and against Shamrocks last winter”
“As per usual Smaill delivered the goods in neat packages”
“Baker did good work for Shamrocks ion goals; steady at all times and brilliant on many occasions. Laviolette and Marshall made a defence that was difficult to work through, though individually the players did not shine as much as Ross and Smaill at the other end"
“For the winners, Smaill and Johnson played the best hockey"
"Smaill was not conspicuous at cover point in the first half, but in the second his work was immense, Smaill intercepting pass after pass from Ottawa forwards when scores seemed inevitable.Smaill was probably the most aggressive man on the Wanderer team in the second half"
“Smaill is looming up as one of the greatest cover-points in the game”
“Hern, Ross and Smaill on the visiting defence, all played great hockey, and both the latter men made some pretty rushesdown the ice and they were always back in time to relieve an attack."
"The Ottawas paid a good deal of attention to Ross and Smaill, and whenever they started down the ice would usually find two men covering them closely”
“Walter Smaill who has developed into one of the greatest defence men in the game”
“Smaill’s reputation as a ‘pinch’ scorer is known in Ottawa. ‘Watch Smaill’ was the cry in the closing minutes of the match, whenever the Wanderer cover would touch the puck”
“Smaill came within an ace of not playing, suffering from gripp, but he was really one of the strong points on the Wanderer defence and attack, frustrating a number of rushes by the Ottawa forwards and initiating many attacks himself. Smaill played fine, clean hockey, not drawing a penalty. He was here, there and all over the ice, showing admirable speed and aggressiveness"
“Smaill looked ill enough to be in bed instead of playing in the hardest hockey match of the year. He was under a big handicap and showed gameness in sticking to it in spite of physical weakness”
"Smaill at point played the best game he has shown this year. He tore up and down the ice in demon-like rushes, and was the most effective player on the ice in breaking away. Two of his rushes resulted in long swinging shots that found the cage, and other goals were scored on his passes”
“The Wanderer forward line was going good and Smaill as usual was on the job”
My comment- Art Ross and Walter Smaill did not play in this one, having accepted $800 (according to some sources) to play two games for Cobalt.
“For the Wanderers, Ross and Smaill were the brilliant men, and they were always dangerous with their rushes and wicked shots. Ross seemed to have regained much of his olf-tie form and he was frequently applauded for his pretty plays, as was Smaill”
“...somehow or other Smaill would always steal the puck when it came his way”
“Smaill played his usual dashing hockey”
"Smaill and Coulson are of similar type- speedy, heady and dogged. They are always working and are never prone to let their covers run away from them"
“Smaill was the most effective man of the quartette"
“Smaill was the pick of the Montreal forwards and played cleverly, although he shared in his team mates failing of weak shooting”
“Smaill was the best man for Montreal"
"The forwards rambled all over the ice, and under the close covering of Sargent and Smaill, who played excellently for Montreal, their quartette never got working smoothly”
“Smaill, a stocky little chap with a bundle of useful speed, who played half-back for the Westmount rugby team, was the best of the visitors and showed a willingness to rush in and take all kinds of body-checks from Baird and Pulford. He can shoot, and was about the most aggressive man on the ice"
"Montreal’s defence, Brownrigg and Smaill, was pretty effective, and the same might be said of that of Ottawa”
“Brownrigg and Smaill especially did some nice work at point and cover, and even big Harvey Pulford was sent sprawling several times in attempting to carry the rubber into the enemy’s territory"
“There was general surprise when the teams lined out last night and it was seen that Hooper, the Kenora star, who was brought in to strengthen the Wanderer defence, was not out with the champions and that Smaill was out at the cover-point position. Wanderers were evidently afraid that Hooper was not in condition for the hard game before the team and that it was better to play a strong finisher like Smaill than a man who might weaken at the critical moment”
“The playing of Smaill proved a fortunate move for Wanderers. He was not very prominent in the first half, but in the second, when the team had to brace up or be beaten, he playing in fine form”
“Kennedy made a good cover point for Vics, but did not show the reserve or the speed that Smaill did in the second half. Smaill was as hard a man to get by, but he rushed effectively”
“It was not that Wanderer as a team won, but it was due almost entirely to the individual efforts of Walter Smaill and Cecil Blatchford that the red-barred Rebels carried away the bay leaves. When their fellows were spiritless and dejected, these two were enthusiastic in their onslaughts on the VIctoria net. They pegged and plugged and these boys were the pivot on which the whole affair turned”
“Gilmour and Russell starred for the Victorias; Ross and Smaill for Wanderers”
“Walter Smaill played at cover and this made the defence speedy and also strong in close checking”
“He [Smaill] showed himself to be in good form and proved very effective against the Quebec forwards"
Smaill, the man many people were doubtful about, proved himself easily one of the best defence men in the business. He checks beautifully and has all kinds of speed. His sensational rush down the ice and scoring unassisted was one of the prettiest plays of the night"
“The work of the Wanderer men was superior to that of the Ottawa couple [comparing defenses], and Walter Smaill was the choice of the fourteen men on the ice. Smaill played a useful checking game at cover, and was down the ice more often than Taylor. He was direct in this play and used the shortest route to the net”
“As in Quebec, Smaill worked to excellent effect and was certainly the most consistent player on the ice. Ross was more showy in his stick handling, but Ross was not so direct in his methods”
“Ross and Smaill were steady in defensive work, never allowing themselves to be drawn out, and always alert to jump into the attack. Ross stopped dozens of hard shots himself and got going in fine style in the second hal in rushing”
“Smaill continues to surprise those who thought he would never show anything better than his last season form with Montreal. His offensive game was as good as his attack, and his daring rushes were among the features of the game”
“When Wanderers were talking of bringing on Barney Holden, Big Bill Nicholson said he didn’t see that Holden had anything on Smaill”
“Smaill, who has hitherto been considered as just outside the first rank, won his spurs Saturday night”
“Smaill was the star of the Wanderer side and the player that was thought only good enough at the start of the season to fill in when there was no better man in sight looks like the most effective man of the seven. He was more successful than Ross by far in getting away and his rushing, dead in on the net, was one of the features of the match. He made an effective cover and in the second half Johnston was frequently dropped back so that Smaill might go up and help the line with his daring, dashing work. He has turned the tide for his side in three tight games on Arena ice, first against Victoria, then Ottawa and now Shamrock”
“Ross, Smaill and Glass were the strong men on the Cupholders"
“It is a well known fact that in hockey the man who does the real hard work, who schemes and then travels with the puck the entire distance of the rink, escaping a dozen dangers, is shorn of the credit he deserves in favor of the men who happens to be near the net and shoves it in.
But in this particular case that will not be so, and the official credit will be given to Walter Smaill.
“This, because he deserves it and because Leseur is not anxious for the honor.
It was a great duel between two of the finest hockey players in the world, and Smaill won out”
“But if Wanderers as a team are lucky it is Walter Smaill who carries the horseshoes for the seven. The goal that Smaill netted in overtime last night was the fourth that he has scored in the last two years saving the day for the champions. It was Smaill who turned the tide for Wanderers each time against Ottawa, against Victoria and against Shamrocks last winter”
“As per usual Smaill delivered the goods in neat packages”
“Baker did good work for Shamrocks ion goals; steady at all times and brilliant on many occasions. Laviolette and Marshall made a defence that was difficult to work through, though individually the players did not shine as much as Ross and Smaill at the other end"
“For the winners, Smaill and Johnson played the best hockey"
"Smaill was not conspicuous at cover point in the first half, but in the second his work was immense, Smaill intercepting pass after pass from Ottawa forwards when scores seemed inevitable.Smaill was probably the most aggressive man on the Wanderer team in the second half"
“Smaill is looming up as one of the greatest cover-points in the game”
“Hern, Ross and Smaill on the visiting defence, all played great hockey, and both the latter men made some pretty rushesdown the ice and they were always back in time to relieve an attack."
"The Ottawas paid a good deal of attention to Ross and Smaill, and whenever they started down the ice would usually find two men covering them closely”
“Walter Smaill who has developed into one of the greatest defence men in the game”
“Smaill’s reputation as a ‘pinch’ scorer is known in Ottawa. ‘Watch Smaill’ was the cry in the closing minutes of the match, whenever the Wanderer cover would touch the puck”
“Smaill came within an ace of not playing, suffering from gripp, but he was really one of the strong points on the Wanderer defence and attack, frustrating a number of rushes by the Ottawa forwards and initiating many attacks himself. Smaill played fine, clean hockey, not drawing a penalty. He was here, there and all over the ice, showing admirable speed and aggressiveness"
“Smaill looked ill enough to be in bed instead of playing in the hardest hockey match of the year. He was under a big handicap and showed gameness in sticking to it in spite of physical weakness”
"Smaill at point played the best game he has shown this year. He tore up and down the ice in demon-like rushes, and was the most effective player on the ice in breaking away. Two of his rushes resulted in long swinging shots that found the cage, and other goals were scored on his passes”
“The Wanderer forward line was going good and Smaill as usual was on the job”
My comment- Art Ross and Walter Smaill did not play in this one, having accepted $800 (according to some sources) to play two games for Cobalt.
“For the Wanderers, Ross and Smaill were the brilliant men, and they were always dangerous with their rushes and wicked shots. Ross seemed to have regained much of his olf-tie form and he was frequently applauded for his pretty plays, as was Smaill”
“...somehow or other Smaill would always steal the puck when it came his way”
“Smaill played his usual dashing hockey”
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Dick Irvin at his best at the top levels
The summary of Irvin's time in the prairie amateur leagues lends a good deal of credibility to how good he may have been at the top levels, if he had been playing there.
But he didn't. And even if you forgive him for being old in the 1928 and 1929 seasons (and probably a lesser-used spare), he does have 7 seasons worthy of comparison to other offensive forwards: In order of greatness, 1927, 1926, 1917, 1924, 1925, 1922 and 1923.
Those first three are excellent. The next four aren't. Is there an excuse for these numbers, when he had the potential to come to the NHL after the merger and have an outstanding season?
In 1921-22, it was GP. His equivalent VsX score of 48 was pacing for 60.
In 1922-23, GP are why his VsX score was 28 and not potentially 34.
In 1923-24 and 1924-25, he only missed 1-2 games, like most players in the league, so there's no need to project here. (scores of 59 and 51)
So why did he explode in his final WHL season and carry that greatness into the NHL the next year, when he was so downright mediocre the previous four seasons?
Irvin's 3 year score of 93 reflects his very high 3-season peak. His 5-year score is tainted a little by missed games (and perhaps by fewer "chances" at top level seasons, particularly his 18-19-20-21 seasons), but is only 79 if you credit him for his pace. Doing the same to his best 7 years, his score is 69.
Dunderdale, just to select an obvious comparable, has scores of 94, 85 and 78 (with no credit for missed games). Dunderdale is very similar to Irvin in that he has a small number of truly elite high-level seasons and then a sharp dropoff, and still he seems to compare extremely favourably.
Gord Roberts: 94, 83, 75. Similar story, he missed some games that I'm not crediting him for, and he has a lack of "chances" like Irvin too, but comes out decidedly ahead as a producer, particularly over 5 and 7 years.
Harry Oliver: with no credit for the nine missed games across his two best seasons: 87, 79, 76. This is more comparable to Irvin, but Oliver has literally nine other seasons at the top level that add to his career value. Oliver was a significantly better player in their mutual seasons in the west (1922-1925). Irvin's age can be an excuse for that, but then how do you explain Irvin's 1925 and 1926 explosions?
Odie Cleghorn: 84, 77, 72. Similar peak to Irvin's, but it falls short. Also much lower in terms of star quality. Also has more seasons for career value, but nothing like Oliver has.
I think a lot of us definitely underrated Irvin by completely ignoring his time as an amateur, but putting him ahead of contemporary western forwards Dunderdale, Roberts and Oliver is a tall order. His WCHL lull makes it tough to project how he'd have performed in between his 1917 peak and the WCHL years - we can't just assume he was a ~90 VsX scorer that whole time, as the evidence is just not strong enough.
And then we have to make sure we don't just get too focused on how these guys all rank against each other and rank them 1-2-3-4-5 or whatever, because there are earlier guys who need their due in this project, too. The above five are gunning to be the 11th-15th forwards on the list born within four years of Irvin (stretching the definition a little to include Dunderdale and Oliver). While Walsh and Russell are looking to be the 8th and 9th forwards added from their similar class (which generously includes Lalonde as part of their generation only on the basis of birthdate, not years of dominance).
By no means am I saying F8 and F9 from that generation need to both be above F11, F12, F13, F14 and F15 of the next generation, but it would sure look weird and wrong if the opposite occurred. They should at least be sprinkled among them.
Then, don't forget there is MacDougall, F3 of his own era after Alf Smith and Dan Bain. And Marshall, whose contemporary forwards we've added are just Bain and Bowie. How skeptical are we of that generation to put the F3 of that era down below F15 from another? That would be an extreme viewpoint, IMO.
And also, my post thus far has only been limited to offensive forwards, and we still all like Noble, right? Broadbent isn't worlds behind him either.
I'm willing to say Cleghorn, Harris, Darragh and Routh can be backburnered for one more round, but even so, this is a hugely packed field.
The summary of Irvin's time in the prairie amateur leagues lends a good deal of credibility to how good he may have been at the top levels, if he had been playing there.
But he didn't. And even if you forgive him for being old in the 1928 and 1929 seasons (and probably a lesser-used spare), he does have 7 seasons worthy of comparison to other offensive forwards: In order of greatness, 1927, 1926, 1917, 1924, 1925, 1922 and 1923.
Those first three are excellent. The next four aren't. Is there an excuse for these numbers, when he had the potential to come to the NHL after the merger and have an outstanding season?
In 1921-22, it was GP. His equivalent VsX score of 48 was pacing for 60.
In 1922-23, GP are why his VsX score was 28 and not potentially 34.
In 1923-24 and 1924-25, he only missed 1-2 games, like most players in the league, so there's no need to project here. (scores of 59 and 51)
So why did he explode in his final WHL season and carry that greatness into the NHL the next year, when he was so downright mediocre the previous four seasons?
Irvin's 3 year score of 93 reflects his very high 3-season peak. His 5-year score is tainted a little by missed games (and perhaps by fewer "chances" at top level seasons, particularly his 18-19-20-21 seasons), but is only 79 if you credit him for his pace. Doing the same to his best 7 years, his score is 69.
Dunderdale, just to select an obvious comparable, has scores of 94, 85 and 78 (with no credit for missed games). Dunderdale is very similar to Irvin in that he has a small number of truly elite high-level seasons and then a sharp dropoff, and still he seems to compare extremely favourably.
Gord Roberts: 94, 83, 75. Similar story, he missed some games that I'm not crediting him for, and he has a lack of "chances" like Irvin too, but comes out decidedly ahead as a producer, particularly over 5 and 7 years.
Harry Oliver: with no credit for the nine missed games across his two best seasons: 87, 79, 76. This is more comparable to Irvin, but Oliver has literally nine other seasons at the top level that add to his career value. Oliver was a significantly better player in their mutual seasons in the west (1922-1925). Irvin's age can be an excuse for that, but then how do you explain Irvin's 1925 and 1926 explosions?
Odie Cleghorn: 84, 77, 72. Similar peak to Irvin's, but it falls short. Also much lower in terms of star quality. Also has more seasons for career value, but nothing like Oliver has.
I think a lot of us definitely underrated Irvin by completely ignoring his time as an amateur, but putting him ahead of contemporary western forwards Dunderdale, Roberts and Oliver is a tall order. His WCHL lull makes it tough to project how he'd have performed in between his 1917 peak and the WCHL years - we can't just assume he was a ~90 VsX scorer that whole time, as the evidence is just not strong enough.
And then we have to make sure we don't just get too focused on how these guys all rank against each other and rank them 1-2-3-4-5 or whatever, because there are earlier guys who need their due in this project, too. The above five are gunning to be the 11th-15th forwards on the list born within four years of Irvin (stretching the definition a little to include Dunderdale and Oliver). While Walsh and Russell are looking to be the 8th and 9th forwards added from their similar class (which generously includes Lalonde as part of their generation only on the basis of birthdate, not years of dominance).
By no means am I saying F8 and F9 from that generation need to both be above F11, F12, F13, F14 and F15 of the next generation, but it would sure look weird and wrong if the opposite occurred. They should at least be sprinkled among them.
Then, don't forget there is MacDougall, F3 of his own era after Alf Smith and Dan Bain. And Marshall, whose contemporary forwards we've added are just Bain and Bowie. How skeptical are we of that generation to put the F3 of that era down below F15 from another? That would be an extreme viewpoint, IMO.
And also, my post thus far has only been limited to offensive forwards, and we still all like Noble, right? Broadbent isn't worlds behind him either.
I'm willing to say Cleghorn, Harris, Darragh and Routh can be backburnered for one more round, but even so, this is a hugely packed field.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I'm reaching a little with that comparison, but I see him as versatile with a little mix of Smith and Noble elements. I think his offense is underrated by a lack of chances as a forward at the top levels, like Smith. That was all I meant. Like Smith and Noble, it's a tough resume to judge appropriately and it's easy to underrate his offense if you're not careful.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Jack Marshall's cups
1901: This year is counted in some sources. Walker was brought on as a spare for the Winnipeg Victorias, who won the cup in a challenge over Shamrocks. Marshall did not play.
1902: As a member of the Little Men Of Iron, Marshall was on one of two championship teams this year. Winnipeg Vics first defended the cup (and are thus credited as 1902 winners) by defeating Toronto Wellingtons. But then they failed to defend it against Marshall's Montreal AAA, losing the best of 3, 1-0, 0-5, 1-2. The third game was famously where the team earned its famous nickname for bending, but not breaking against the relentless onslaught of the Winnipeg squad. Marshall was credited with 5 points in the series, while the rest of his team was also credited with 5 in total. Marshall scored the winner in the deciding game.
1903: MAAA is credited with being the first of two cup winners this season by defending the cup against the Winnipeg Vics in a best-of-3 series that went to 4 games, thanks to a tie in game 2. Montreal won 8-1 and 4-1, while losing 4-2. Assists were not recorded, but Marshall's 7 goals in the 4 games easily led his team, followed by Tom Hooper (5) and Tom Phillips (3).
1904: Not a cup win, but a what-could-have-been. Ottawa Silver Seven defended the cup successfully three times this season, and are listed as the only cup winner for 1904. They beat Winnipeg Rowing Club in a series that had no business going to three games, then made short work of the Toronto Marlboros, and did the same to Brandon. In-between, Marshall's Wanderers dueled them to a 5-5 tie but were then disqualified after refusing to play 2 away games to complete the best-of-3 challenge. This was, and would have been, the only real challenge Ottawa faced this year.
1906: Also not a cup win, but another what-could-have-been, as Marshall is listed as playing exhibition games for the Toronto Pros this season. He was a Wanderer the season before and after this. Wanderers defeated Ottawa 12-10 over a two-game-total-goal series, finally ending their reign, then fended off a rather easy challenge from New Glasgow. Marshall, had he stuck around, could only have helped.
1907: Marshall won the cup in a grueling two-game series against Kenora, the first 1907 winners. Kenora beat Wanderers 12-8 over two games in January, while Wanderers beat them by the exact same score two months later. Marshall played in one of the two games, scoring one goal. The Wanderers then went on to be the 1908 cup champs without Marshall.
1910: In January, Ottawa defended their cup against Galt and Edmonton by a total score of 36-15, but the cup went to the winner of Ottawa's league. Wanderers were simply dominant this season, going 11-1 and 91:41 in GF/GA. They only needed to play one game against Berlin to defend the cup. I believe Marshall was now a defenseman.
1914: As a member of the Toronto Blueshirts, Marshall, now definitely a defenseman, played his part for a team that first defeated Les Canadiens in a two-game playoff, then Victoria in three hard-fought games (total score 15-8). Marshall was a starter on D this whole time, with the series beginning on his 37th birthday. Con Corbeau, at 28, was the next-oldest player on the team, with 30-year old Lester Patrick being the oldest on the opposing Aristocrats.
1901: This year is counted in some sources. Walker was brought on as a spare for the Winnipeg Victorias, who won the cup in a challenge over Shamrocks. Marshall did not play.
1902: As a member of the Little Men Of Iron, Marshall was on one of two championship teams this year. Winnipeg Vics first defended the cup (and are thus credited as 1902 winners) by defeating Toronto Wellingtons. But then they failed to defend it against Marshall's Montreal AAA, losing the best of 3, 1-0, 0-5, 1-2. The third game was famously where the team earned its famous nickname for bending, but not breaking against the relentless onslaught of the Winnipeg squad. Marshall was credited with 5 points in the series, while the rest of his team was also credited with 5 in total. Marshall scored the winner in the deciding game.
1903: MAAA is credited with being the first of two cup winners this season by defending the cup against the Winnipeg Vics in a best-of-3 series that went to 4 games, thanks to a tie in game 2. Montreal won 8-1 and 4-1, while losing 4-2. Assists were not recorded, but Marshall's 7 goals in the 4 games easily led his team, followed by Tom Hooper (5) and Tom Phillips (3).
1904: Not a cup win, but a what-could-have-been. Ottawa Silver Seven defended the cup successfully three times this season, and are listed as the only cup winner for 1904. They beat Winnipeg Rowing Club in a series that had no business going to three games, then made short work of the Toronto Marlboros, and did the same to Brandon. In-between, Marshall's Wanderers dueled them to a 5-5 tie but were then disqualified after refusing to play 2 away games to complete the best-of-3 challenge. This was, and would have been, the only real challenge Ottawa faced this year.
1906: Also not a cup win, but another what-could-have-been, as Marshall is listed as playing exhibition games for the Toronto Pros this season. He was a Wanderer the season before and after this. Wanderers defeated Ottawa 12-10 over a two-game-total-goal series, finally ending their reign, then fended off a rather easy challenge from New Glasgow. Marshall, had he stuck around, could only have helped.
1907: Marshall won the cup in a grueling two-game series against Kenora, the first 1907 winners. Kenora beat Wanderers 12-8 over two games in January, while Wanderers beat them by the exact same score two months later. Marshall played in one of the two games, scoring one goal. The Wanderers then went on to be the 1908 cup champs without Marshall.
1910: In January, Ottawa defended their cup against Galt and Edmonton by a total score of 36-15, but the cup went to the winner of Ottawa's league. Wanderers were simply dominant this season, going 11-1 and 91:41 in GF/GA. They only needed to play one game against Berlin to defend the cup. I believe Marshall was now a defenseman.
1914: As a member of the Toronto Blueshirts, Marshall, now definitely a defenseman, played his part for a team that first defeated Les Canadiens in a two-game playoff, then Victoria in three hard-fought games (total score 15-8). Marshall was a starter on D this whole time, with the series beginning on his 37th birthday. Con Corbeau, at 28, was the next-oldest player on the team, with 30-year old Lester Patrick being the oldest on the opposing Aristocrats.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I think it's safe to say that in Marshall's last three cups, he was just a solid contributor and nothing more. But, there's a case to be made that he was flat out the most valuable player to two separate Cup winners. Just wondering, what other players who have not been added to the list yet have this distinction?
Without detailed game reports, I can't conclusively say Marshall was the MVP in 1902 or 1903, considering how leading scorers were often treated and considering offense says nothing about how a defenseman or goaltender performed. But he was at least very high in the mix for MVP on two Cup winners.
Who's left who can make that claim?
Without detailed game reports, I can't conclusively say Marshall was the MVP in 1902 or 1903, considering how leading scorers were often treated and considering offense says nothing about how a defenseman or goaltender performed. But he was at least very high in the mix for MVP on two Cup winners.
Who's left who can make that claim?
This really interests me, so once I get an Ernie Russell post up, I'm going to dig into this. I have the scans for the cup challenges involving AHAC/CAHL/ECAHA teams, I just haven't transcribed everything yet. As such, I don't think it will take me too long to pull something together.
Ah, I forgot that I did go through the 1902 SC challenges between Winnipeg and Montreal HC (when we were discussing Bain)-
I don't think Marshall gets the nod for series MVP in this one.
Montreal HC vs Winnipeg Victorias, 13 March 1902
A Winnipeg paper reported: “Dan Bain’s fine work in the match”
“To Winnipeggers who know already what to expect from their own men perhaps the most noticeable individual playing was that of Boon, the featherweight cover-point for the Montreals. Liffiton is a remarkably swift, skillful, and tireless player, though, one regrets to say, a little illegitimate at times in his style of play”
“If any of the Montrealers took any stock in the talk of one of their papers about Dan Bain’s being a ‘has been’, they will now be undeceived. He was a tower of strength to the Winnipeggers and his return to the ice is a fortunate thing for them. Johnstone and Gingras maintained their reputations, and what more can be said. Art Brown retrieved a reputation that had suffered during the earlier part of the season. It was a star exhibition of goal keeping that he put up, especially in the close work around the goal”
“Scanlan, who was checked by Liffiton, worked hard and well. The defensive game played by the Vics gave Roddy and Magnus Flett plenty of exercise, and plenty of opportunity to show what sort of a defence they could put up. It is needless to say what that was. Roddy, though he appeared almost a shade dilatory at times displayed admirable quickness and soundness of judgment, in addition to his ability as a check and stickhandler. Magnus distinguished himself as usual in his position. He is even better than last year- and a good deal better, at that”
“Bain’s shooting was immense”
A Montreal paper wrote: “Individually Boon, cover point and captain of the team, was the best man on his side. His physique made a strong body-checking game an impossibility, but he is on to every known trick of the game, and his checking is entirely for the puck. This evening he proved very effective, and his long lifting on more than one occasion put the Vics’ goal in extreme danger. Liffiton, the right wing man, was easily the best among the forwards. He is a stylish player and is possessed of great speed. He worked all the way, hard and clearly aoutpointed Scanlan, whom he was checking. Hooper, the rover, is a very strong player, and his shooting was one of the features of the game. Marshall and Gardiner, the other two forwards, worked hard and meant well, but they were not effective. Hodge, the gigantic point player, is the weak spot of the team. He has no speed and his lifting is uncertain. Nicholson, in goals, played a steady game. For the Vics, Bain, the veteran of a hundred fights, was the hero of the occasion. Fast as lightning on his feet and always close to the puck, Bain gained ground whenever he secured the rubber. Gingras, on right wing, was dashing and brilliant as ever, and easily overmatched his check”
“Scanlan had a hard row to hoe in checking Liffiton, and Johnstone lacked his usual effectiveness. M. lett at cover point play a magnificent game. Not only was he a tower of strength to the defence, but when occasion offered, he was ready to assume the aggressive, and his rushes sent the crowd crazy. Roddy Flett at point played a remarkably effective game, and Brown, in goal, never showed to greater advantage”
Another Montreal paper noted: “The two Fletts and Brown, by cool and clever work, time and again prevented Liffiton and Marshall from scoring”
“The two Fletts, Brown, and Gingras were the stars. Scanlan was out-matched by Liffiton. The latter and Marshall were the stars of the Montrealers. Their splendid work kept Boon somewhat in the background in the last half, but when his services were required he was never found wanting”
Final Score: 1-0 Winnipeg
Rosters
Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Hodge at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Liffiton at LW, Marshall at center, and Gardner at RW
Winnipeg: Brown in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Johnstone at rover, Gingras at LW, Bain at center, and Scanlan at RW
Montreal HC vs Winnipeg Victorias, 15 March 1902
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Good goalkeeping, to say nothing of star goalkeeping, has not been put up by the senior Victoria goalkeeper in any game this year, when the ice was such as would permit first rate shooting”
“Scanlan outshone himself and gave the best exhibition of hockey he has yet presented in Winnipeg”
“At that stage of the game Scanlan, the star man of the Vics’ forward line…”
“Nicholson made some marvellous stops”
“The second hal commenced decidedly fast with both Boon and Liffiton, the two Montreal stars, on the fence”
A Montreal paper reported: “Hooper was undoubtedly the star of the line. As rover he put up a magnificent game. His shooting was accurate, his checking was strong, and when he got the puck he never failed to gain ground. Liffiton, as right wing, is the speediest man of the quartette; he was checking Scanlan, and while he did not break through as often as in the first match, he was dangerous all the way and played brilliant hockey. Gardner, the left wing, put up a very effective article. He is a pretty skater and a nice shot, but his frequent tripping marred his otherwise good performance. He was ruled off nine times. Marshall at centre played a hard working game”
“Boone, at cover point, was the whole team and a spare man. What he does not know about the fine points of the game would not occupy much time in telling, and he brought into play every device he knew. The result was that very few of the young gentlemen in red and blue got any further than coverpoint. Those that did found a surprise party waiting or them. Hodge, the point on Thursday evening, had been thrown out, his place being taken by Bellingham, who showed splendid form. He seemed to give the team confidence, and his inclusion was a wise move. Nicholson, goal, touched the puck on three occasions”
“Scanlan was, perhaps, the pick of the lot. Dan Bain and Gingras were brilliant in sports, but they were not effective. Charlie Johnstone, as rover, did not keep his head and failed to check Hooper”
“Flett, at cover point, failed in his checking and did not get rid of the puck quickly enough. Roddy, at point, played a good game, but Brown, in goal, although he stopped a number of good shots, weakened toward the finish”
Another Montreal paper noted: “On keen ice the Montreal boys proved to be whirlwinds; even the redoubtable Tony Gingras looked slow beside them, and if by a chance his speed carried him down towards the Montreal goal, Dickey Boon was always in the way, and the puck did not remain there long. Liffiton, Boon and Hooper were the stars of the Montreals”
“He [Liffiton] ws marked apparently as a good subject for bodying and got more than his share of it. Nevertheless he not only kept track of the cleverest Vic player, Scanlan, but was a host of strength to Boon, Marshall and Hooper”
“But Dickey [Boon] was always doing something unexpected, and before the game closed was perhaps the most popular player on the ice. Gardner on the left wing was most effective. Marshall worked hard and while apparently severely hurt his toe on one occasion did not impress the crowd in this way. He was hooted as he staggered off the ice”
“Bellingham strengthened the Montreal defence. He played a cleaner, cleverer game than Hodge, and was frequently applauded. Nicholson in goal could not be improved on. He had no opportunity to distinguish himself and he had very few hot shots to stop”
Final Score: 5-0 Montreal
Rosters
Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Liffiton at RW, Marshall at center, and Gardiner at LW
Winnipeg: Brown in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Johnstone at rover, Gingras at RW, Bain at center, and Scanlan at LW
Montreal HC vs Winnipeg Victorias, 17 March 1902
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Boon is the bright particular star of the aggregation, but all the other players were stars also”
“On the home team Gingras, who was a host in himself, Scanlan, and Roddy Flett were particularly effective, but were closely run by Johnstone, Bain and Magnus Flett”
A Montreal paper reported: “It would be hard to pick the man who played the best game for the home team. On the forward line Bain and Scanlan, perhaps, divided the honors. Bain played as fast and aggressive a game as he ever did in his life. He was always on the puck, and never in his palmiest days did he show greater speed. Scanlan was the most effective man of the bunch. So far as stick handling is concerned, he is, perhaps, without a peer in Canada, and last night, whenever he touched the rubber he made ground. Some of his rushes were marvellous, and the way he dodged in and out among the opposing players never failed to bring the crowd to its feet, and earn him rounds of applause. Tony Gingras, on the right wing, did great work. Gardner, the man whom he was checking, never showed up throughout the entire play, while Tony time and time again made those brilliant rushes which have become characteristic of his play. Johnstone was back to his old form, and not one Montrealer ever broke through the line who did not afterwards have difficulty in getting clear of this stalwart forward. Magnus Flett, at cover point, broke up everything in the way of an attack, and only the remnants got past him. He played, perhaps, the hardest game on the Victoria team and showed himself to be a great cover point. R. Flett, at point, played close in on the poles, and blocked and cleared in the manner which has given him his big reputation. Brown, in goal, played right up to form”
“Hooper was the brightest man on the line. His shooting was always accurate, and his checking was simply splendid. Liffiton was not as brilliant by long odds as in the first matches, and his time was principally occupied in preventing Scanlan from breaking away. Gardner never showed very prominently in the play and did not hold Gingras as closely as he might have”
“There was one man on the Montreal team who, during the first two matches was rather overlooked by the critics. This man was Nicholson, the big goalkeeper of the team. Up to this evening he never had a chance to show what he could really do, but then the chance came and Nicholson made good”
“Decidedly, Mr. Nicholson won the game for Montreal”
“Boon, the plucky captain of the team, played the game as he never played it before. He was all over the ice, checking, blocking, and clearing with speed and accuracy. Bellingham at point was steady as a rock and overlooked nothing”
“Marshall was, as usual, seriously injured, at least a dozen times, but in spite of the fact that on one occasion he had to be carried from the ice, he showed rare plush, and managed to finish the game”
Another Montreal paper noted: “They [Boon and Bellingham] were ably assisted in the defence by Nicholson, who played the most marvellous game in goal ever witnessed here. He was cool headed throughout. Had the Vics’ goal keeper played the same kind of a game, the Cup might still be one of the adornments of the Vics’ clubrooms. Gingras’ shots seldom ‘azed’ Nicholson, when they reached him, and it was only a puzzling side shot by the Frenchman which gave the Vics their only goal”
“Bain played a whirlwind game and was always effective. Scanlan never played cleverer hockey in his life. His stick handling was marvellous to behold. Gingras played an erratic, but brilliant, game, but had difficulty at times in keeping the puck from Gardner. The two Fletts roused themselves after the first two goals were taken by Montreal, and played in their old-time form”
“Dickey Boon was simply invincible. He seldom made an error, and was always in the right spot at the right time. Marshall perhaps did not show up so well as expected, but he was always to be counted in during a mix-up. Liffiton, while playing clever, clear hockey, did not play his Saturday night game, and Scanlan at times ‘put it all over him’”
“That man Liffiton is a little wonder and a game sport”
Final Score: 2-1 Montreal
Rosters
Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Liffiton at RW, Marshall at center, and Gardner at LW
Winnipeg: Brown in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Johnstone at rover, Scanlan at LW, Bain at center, and Gingras at RW
Series Scoring Table
As always, all stats are compiled in good faith. I'm more than happy to make any corrections that are pointed out.
A Winnipeg paper reported: “Dan Bain’s fine work in the match”
“To Winnipeggers who know already what to expect from their own men perhaps the most noticeable individual playing was that of Boon, the featherweight cover-point for the Montreals. Liffiton is a remarkably swift, skillful, and tireless player, though, one regrets to say, a little illegitimate at times in his style of play”
“If any of the Montrealers took any stock in the talk of one of their papers about Dan Bain’s being a ‘has been’, they will now be undeceived. He was a tower of strength to the Winnipeggers and his return to the ice is a fortunate thing for them. Johnstone and Gingras maintained their reputations, and what more can be said. Art Brown retrieved a reputation that had suffered during the earlier part of the season. It was a star exhibition of goal keeping that he put up, especially in the close work around the goal”
“Scanlan, who was checked by Liffiton, worked hard and well. The defensive game played by the Vics gave Roddy and Magnus Flett plenty of exercise, and plenty of opportunity to show what sort of a defence they could put up. It is needless to say what that was. Roddy, though he appeared almost a shade dilatory at times displayed admirable quickness and soundness of judgment, in addition to his ability as a check and stickhandler. Magnus distinguished himself as usual in his position. He is even better than last year- and a good deal better, at that”
“Bain’s shooting was immense”
A Montreal paper wrote: “Individually Boon, cover point and captain of the team, was the best man on his side. His physique made a strong body-checking game an impossibility, but he is on to every known trick of the game, and his checking is entirely for the puck. This evening he proved very effective, and his long lifting on more than one occasion put the Vics’ goal in extreme danger. Liffiton, the right wing man, was easily the best among the forwards. He is a stylish player and is possessed of great speed. He worked all the way, hard and clearly aoutpointed Scanlan, whom he was checking. Hooper, the rover, is a very strong player, and his shooting was one of the features of the game. Marshall and Gardiner, the other two forwards, worked hard and meant well, but they were not effective. Hodge, the gigantic point player, is the weak spot of the team. He has no speed and his lifting is uncertain. Nicholson, in goals, played a steady game. For the Vics, Bain, the veteran of a hundred fights, was the hero of the occasion. Fast as lightning on his feet and always close to the puck, Bain gained ground whenever he secured the rubber. Gingras, on right wing, was dashing and brilliant as ever, and easily overmatched his check”
“Scanlan had a hard row to hoe in checking Liffiton, and Johnstone lacked his usual effectiveness. M. lett at cover point play a magnificent game. Not only was he a tower of strength to the defence, but when occasion offered, he was ready to assume the aggressive, and his rushes sent the crowd crazy. Roddy Flett at point played a remarkably effective game, and Brown, in goal, never showed to greater advantage”
Another Montreal paper noted: “The two Fletts and Brown, by cool and clever work, time and again prevented Liffiton and Marshall from scoring”
“The two Fletts, Brown, and Gingras were the stars. Scanlan was out-matched by Liffiton. The latter and Marshall were the stars of the Montrealers. Their splendid work kept Boon somewhat in the background in the last half, but when his services were required he was never found wanting”
Final Score: 1-0 Winnipeg
Rosters
Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Hodge at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Liffiton at LW, Marshall at center, and Gardner at RW
Winnipeg: Brown in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Johnstone at rover, Gingras at LW, Bain at center, and Scanlan at RW
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Winnipeg | Gingras | Bain | N/A |
Montreal HC vs Winnipeg Victorias, 15 March 1902
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Good goalkeeping, to say nothing of star goalkeeping, has not been put up by the senior Victoria goalkeeper in any game this year, when the ice was such as would permit first rate shooting”
“Scanlan outshone himself and gave the best exhibition of hockey he has yet presented in Winnipeg”
“At that stage of the game Scanlan, the star man of the Vics’ forward line…”
“Nicholson made some marvellous stops”
“The second hal commenced decidedly fast with both Boon and Liffiton, the two Montreal stars, on the fence”
A Montreal paper reported: “Hooper was undoubtedly the star of the line. As rover he put up a magnificent game. His shooting was accurate, his checking was strong, and when he got the puck he never failed to gain ground. Liffiton, as right wing, is the speediest man of the quartette; he was checking Scanlan, and while he did not break through as often as in the first match, he was dangerous all the way and played brilliant hockey. Gardner, the left wing, put up a very effective article. He is a pretty skater and a nice shot, but his frequent tripping marred his otherwise good performance. He was ruled off nine times. Marshall at centre played a hard working game”
“Boone, at cover point, was the whole team and a spare man. What he does not know about the fine points of the game would not occupy much time in telling, and he brought into play every device he knew. The result was that very few of the young gentlemen in red and blue got any further than coverpoint. Those that did found a surprise party waiting or them. Hodge, the point on Thursday evening, had been thrown out, his place being taken by Bellingham, who showed splendid form. He seemed to give the team confidence, and his inclusion was a wise move. Nicholson, goal, touched the puck on three occasions”
“Scanlan was, perhaps, the pick of the lot. Dan Bain and Gingras were brilliant in sports, but they were not effective. Charlie Johnstone, as rover, did not keep his head and failed to check Hooper”
“Flett, at cover point, failed in his checking and did not get rid of the puck quickly enough. Roddy, at point, played a good game, but Brown, in goal, although he stopped a number of good shots, weakened toward the finish”
Another Montreal paper noted: “On keen ice the Montreal boys proved to be whirlwinds; even the redoubtable Tony Gingras looked slow beside them, and if by a chance his speed carried him down towards the Montreal goal, Dickey Boon was always in the way, and the puck did not remain there long. Liffiton, Boon and Hooper were the stars of the Montreals”
“He [Liffiton] ws marked apparently as a good subject for bodying and got more than his share of it. Nevertheless he not only kept track of the cleverest Vic player, Scanlan, but was a host of strength to Boon, Marshall and Hooper”
“But Dickey [Boon] was always doing something unexpected, and before the game closed was perhaps the most popular player on the ice. Gardner on the left wing was most effective. Marshall worked hard and while apparently severely hurt his toe on one occasion did not impress the crowd in this way. He was hooted as he staggered off the ice”
“Bellingham strengthened the Montreal defence. He played a cleaner, cleverer game than Hodge, and was frequently applauded. Nicholson in goal could not be improved on. He had no opportunity to distinguish himself and he had very few hot shots to stop”
Final Score: 5-0 Montreal
Rosters
Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Liffiton at RW, Marshall at center, and Gardiner at LW
Winnipeg: Brown in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Johnstone at rover, Gingras at RW, Bain at center, and Scanlan at LW
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assis |
| Montreal | Hooper | N/A | N/A |
| Montreal | Marshall | N/A | N/A |
| Montreal | Hooper | Liffiton | N/A |
| Montreal | Liffiton | Marshall | N/A |
| Montreal | Gardiner or Marshall | N/A | N/A |
Montreal HC vs Winnipeg Victorias, 17 March 1902
A Winnipeg paper wrote: “Boon is the bright particular star of the aggregation, but all the other players were stars also”
“On the home team Gingras, who was a host in himself, Scanlan, and Roddy Flett were particularly effective, but were closely run by Johnstone, Bain and Magnus Flett”
A Montreal paper reported: “It would be hard to pick the man who played the best game for the home team. On the forward line Bain and Scanlan, perhaps, divided the honors. Bain played as fast and aggressive a game as he ever did in his life. He was always on the puck, and never in his palmiest days did he show greater speed. Scanlan was the most effective man of the bunch. So far as stick handling is concerned, he is, perhaps, without a peer in Canada, and last night, whenever he touched the rubber he made ground. Some of his rushes were marvellous, and the way he dodged in and out among the opposing players never failed to bring the crowd to its feet, and earn him rounds of applause. Tony Gingras, on the right wing, did great work. Gardner, the man whom he was checking, never showed up throughout the entire play, while Tony time and time again made those brilliant rushes which have become characteristic of his play. Johnstone was back to his old form, and not one Montrealer ever broke through the line who did not afterwards have difficulty in getting clear of this stalwart forward. Magnus Flett, at cover point, broke up everything in the way of an attack, and only the remnants got past him. He played, perhaps, the hardest game on the Victoria team and showed himself to be a great cover point. R. Flett, at point, played close in on the poles, and blocked and cleared in the manner which has given him his big reputation. Brown, in goal, played right up to form”
“Hooper was the brightest man on the line. His shooting was always accurate, and his checking was simply splendid. Liffiton was not as brilliant by long odds as in the first matches, and his time was principally occupied in preventing Scanlan from breaking away. Gardner never showed very prominently in the play and did not hold Gingras as closely as he might have”
“There was one man on the Montreal team who, during the first two matches was rather overlooked by the critics. This man was Nicholson, the big goalkeeper of the team. Up to this evening he never had a chance to show what he could really do, but then the chance came and Nicholson made good”
“Decidedly, Mr. Nicholson won the game for Montreal”
“Boon, the plucky captain of the team, played the game as he never played it before. He was all over the ice, checking, blocking, and clearing with speed and accuracy. Bellingham at point was steady as a rock and overlooked nothing”
“Marshall was, as usual, seriously injured, at least a dozen times, but in spite of the fact that on one occasion he had to be carried from the ice, he showed rare plush, and managed to finish the game”
Another Montreal paper noted: “They [Boon and Bellingham] were ably assisted in the defence by Nicholson, who played the most marvellous game in goal ever witnessed here. He was cool headed throughout. Had the Vics’ goal keeper played the same kind of a game, the Cup might still be one of the adornments of the Vics’ clubrooms. Gingras’ shots seldom ‘azed’ Nicholson, when they reached him, and it was only a puzzling side shot by the Frenchman which gave the Vics their only goal”
“Bain played a whirlwind game and was always effective. Scanlan never played cleverer hockey in his life. His stick handling was marvellous to behold. Gingras played an erratic, but brilliant, game, but had difficulty at times in keeping the puck from Gardner. The two Fletts roused themselves after the first two goals were taken by Montreal, and played in their old-time form”
“Dickey Boon was simply invincible. He seldom made an error, and was always in the right spot at the right time. Marshall perhaps did not show up so well as expected, but he was always to be counted in during a mix-up. Liffiton, while playing clever, clear hockey, did not play his Saturday night game, and Scanlan at times ‘put it all over him’”
“That man Liffiton is a little wonder and a game sport”
Final Score: 2-1 Montreal
Rosters
Montreal: Nicholson in goal, Bellingham at point, Boon at cover, Hooper at rover, Liffiton at RW, Marshall at center, and Gardner at LW
Winnipeg: Brown in goal, R. Flett at point, M. Flett at cover, Johnstone at rover, Scanlan at LW, Bain at center, and Gingras at RW
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Montreal | Hooper | N/A | N/A |
| Montreal | Marshall | Boon | N/A |
| Winnipeg | Gingras | Bain | N/A |
Series Scoring Table
| Name | Team | Goals | Assists | Points |
| Archie Hooper | Montreal HC | 3 | 0 | 3 |
| Jack Marshall | Montreal HC | 2 | 1 | 3 |
| Tony Gingras | Winnipeg Victorias | 2 | 0 | 2 |
| Charlie Liffiton | Montreal HC | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| Dan Bain | Winnipeg Victorias | 0 | 1 | 1 |
| Dickie Boon | Montreal HC | 0 | 1 | 1 |
| Jimmy Gardner or Jack Marshall | Montreal HC | 1 | 0 | 1 |
As always, all stats are compiled in good faith. I'm more than happy to make any corrections that are pointed out.
I don't think Marshall gets the nod for series MVP in this one.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
The Millionaires defensemen discussion
So between the 3 I've always held the belief that: Patrick (when he played) > Cook > Duncan
Patrick as discussed in a previous thread didn't play nearly as much as Lester but from CP/P was probably on a per game basis as effective.
Patrick's strongest two seasons offensively by my metrics are the first two seasons of the PCHA's existence
1911-12 - From the point position Patrick is 4th in league scoring, only 4 goals behind Lalonde who is his teammate and league leader.
1912-13 - Patrick is tied for second in scoring with 2 other teammates
1913-14 - Patrick is second in team scoring tied with Sibby Nichols. He outscores Harris and Pitre from the point position
1914-15 - Doesn't play most of the season, but plays as a starter along with Cook during the Finals
1915-16 - Barely plays again
1916-17 - Back in action, finishes 5th behind Roberts, Stanley, MacKay and Taylor
Patrick's 4 seasons in the PCHA with Vs1:
85, 69, 51, 48
Cook's best 7 seasons (no attempt made to combine PCHA/WCHL)
66, 60, 55, 42, 41, 39, 38
Duncan 's best 7 seasons (no attempt made to combine PCHA/WCHL)
100 (we know this isn't a true 100%), 47, 38, 36, 31, 30, 30
Offensively outside of that one season where Duncan popped off, he is getting destroyed by Patrick and Cook in a straight Vs1 comparison
Old quotes on Patrick I have handy. Patrick's case relies upon the immense star power he had prior to the creation of the PCHA and during it's formative years. Cook and Duncan do not have nearly the same level of praise.
So between the 3 I've always held the belief that: Patrick (when he played) > Cook > Duncan
Patrick as discussed in a previous thread didn't play nearly as much as Lester but from CP/P was probably on a per game basis as effective.
Patrick's strongest two seasons offensively by my metrics are the first two seasons of the PCHA's existence
1911-12 - From the point position Patrick is 4th in league scoring, only 4 goals behind Lalonde who is his teammate and league leader.
1912-13 - Patrick is tied for second in scoring with 2 other teammates
1913-14 - Patrick is second in team scoring tied with Sibby Nichols. He outscores Harris and Pitre from the point position
1914-15 - Doesn't play most of the season, but plays as a starter along with Cook during the Finals
1915-16 - Barely plays again
1916-17 - Back in action, finishes 5th behind Roberts, Stanley, MacKay and Taylor
Patrick's 4 seasons in the PCHA with Vs1:
85, 69, 51, 48
Cook's best 7 seasons (no attempt made to combine PCHA/WCHL)
66, 60, 55, 42, 41, 39, 38
Duncan 's best 7 seasons (no attempt made to combine PCHA/WCHL)
100 (we know this isn't a true 100%), 47, 38, 36, 31, 30, 30
Offensively outside of that one season where Duncan popped off, he is getting destroyed by Patrick and Cook in a straight Vs1 comparison
Old quotes on Patrick I have handy. Patrick's case relies upon the immense star power he had prior to the creation of the PCHA and during it's formative years. Cook and Duncan do not have nearly the same level of praise.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Honestly I've started to believe that Si Griffis was held in higher esteem amongst locals compared to Cook and Duncan.
Si Griffis
Si Griffis
Six-Man Hockey Will Be Played in the Coast League Next Season said:
Frank Patrick and Si Griffis Have Retired From Hockey at Coast said:
Si Griffis Came Back and Looked Like Real Find said:
Toronto Captured the Third Game of World Series from Vancouver said:
Ernie Russell
Ernie Russell spent the majority of his career as the trigger man on the Montreal Wanderers, one of the better teams of his time (well, in the first half of his career, at least), and, accordingly, has several seasons at or near the top of the scoring tables. I do have reservations about his all-around game, as evidenced by him being replaced by Bruce Stuart against Ottawa in 1908, but I’ve talked about that already. I have information on the first half of his career; he sat out 1909 and all but 1 SC challenge game of 1910 (scoring 4 goals in the Wanderers 7-3 victory over Berlin) before returning full-time in the 1910-11 NHA season. According to wikipedia, Russell did well, finishing 8th in goals league-wide, first on his team. He finished 3rd in the league the following year, but then looks to have dropped off a cliff, scoring just 9 goals in the 27 games he played in the next two seasons.Selection of Quotes (1905-1908; re-post from earlier discussion threads)
1905 (CAHL)-
“Russell did excellent service on the Montreal forward line”
“The Montreal forward line showed improvement since the opening game against National, and the busiest worker of the lot was Russell, who was always after the puck"
“He made some great plays that [Ernie] Russell, for a comparatively new man"
“[Ernie] Russell kept flying about with amazing rapidity. He was here, there and everywhere, and once or twice he made most unmerciful swipes at pursuers”
“The Montreal defence was fine, Russell and Johnson, of the Montreal forward line, played a good game"
"On the forward line all worked hard, especially Johnston, Coulson, and Russell.
"Montreal gave a nice exhibition of clean, fast hockey, Russell and Sargent in particular showing up well"
1906 (ECAHA)-
“Russell was all around the best forward. His play was cool and heady and that he was effective may be seen in the fact that he came next to Johnson in the scoring line with four goals"
“Ernie Russell at centre played the all around good game, using his head in fine style and keeping free from any dirty work”
“Russell had up till then played a fast clean game and his loss was a severe one for the Wanderers"
“The Wanderers were a disappointment. Ernie Russell was missing from the centre position and his loss was apparent in the lack of cohesion in the forwards’ play”
“Ernie Russell was out again and did some very good work”
“Russell was back in his old place at centre, for the first time since he was injured in the game in Ottawa, and was easily the pick of the Wanderer forward line”
“Lester Patrick and Ernie Russell were the pick of the forwards, though when they wanted to play Pud Glass and Ernie Johnson pranced into the limelight"
“Russell and Johnston played steadily and effectively, but each moved away from his wing”
“He [Russell] had been a thorn in the Ottawa’s side for hours. He had done some of the most magnificent work in the way of shooting ever seen at a hockey match here, and they had been unable to effectually stop his shots, so there was nothing to do but to ‘put him out of business’, and Moore took it upon himself to do so. He has gained high honors as an executioner, and he did his work very well this time”
“Russell, as a rule, was waiting on the side for the puck to come his way, and shoot with admirable position almost from the very spot where it reached his stick, while Glass would walk in with it pretty well”
“Russell, that dangerous little wing…”
“Certainly Johnson and Russell moved all over the shop in that game, just as they did in previous ones, and their wanderings and failing had a considerable effect in the rising score of Ottawa”
“Russell’s strong point is that he is a dangerous shot, Johnson that he is fast and a hard worker”
"For Wanderer, Menard and Patrick were the king pins. The former staved off defeat by his marvellous stops, while Patrick was responsible for the goals scored for his team. Ernie Russell was good in his checking and following up, but rarely got away on a rush”
1907 (ECAHA)-
"Russell was speedy and seemed to be working along, but his play was then not as good as usual"
“On the other side, Blair Russell had the best of his namesake" [Blair Russell was matched up on Ernie Russell, and it sounds like Blair got the better of the contest]
“Russell performed well in the centre, and inasmuch as he captured five of the Wanderer goals, his scoring ability was no small factor in his team’s victory"
“Blachford and Johnson kept the centre supplied all through the game, and Russell and Glass were always in their place to take the expected pass"
“Blatchford played a stronger game than he has played for some time, and the two ‘Ernies’, Russell and Johnson, also did some good steady work”
"The best shot of the bunch and one of the prettiest stick handlers in the game is Ernie Russell. He was at all times very dangerous and was watched pretty closely, but scored about half of the goals for his team"
"Glass, Johnston and Blachford followed back effectively, but Russell loafed”
“Without desiring to say a word in disparagement of Ernie Russell, it is highly probably that the poor exhibition he gave last winter in Ottawa, March 17 was the day that had something to do in Saturday’s results. In the final of the famous series, Russell was a fifth wheel and his services were of little value. On Saturday Ernie Russell played a game that Bowie could well be proud of. Russell took a leaf out of Bowie’s book and jumped for the proper spot near the goal, with the result that six of the tallies are credited to him alone. Not only did Russell loom large on the score sheet, but he earned his goals, and a brace of the were taken after dashing, dodging runs.”
“The Wanderer forwards were steady and useful throughout; Russell sometimes rose to brilliancy, but on the whole their forte was steadiness rather than showiness. The pick of the line was Johnson, this despite the array of goals credited to Russell"
“Russell was at his best as a scorer and six of the Wanderers’ ten are notched up to his credit. His game was useful at all times; he did not mix it up like Blachford and Johnson on the wing, but he hovered around the Ottawa poles in a way that proved deadly to the Senators and Harry Smith had nothing on him tonight for ability to get rid of the disc speedily and accurately. In addition his falling back and checking in centre ice proved useful to the defence"
Originally posted in an ATD thread, so there are redactions: "The story of Russell's desertion was told and retold and garnished with much detail of circumstance. It was said that Russell had been left off the team to meet Ottawa tonight, and that UNDRAFTED (who I don't think as ever actually been selected in the ATD [I believe Cecil Blachford was the name mentioned]) had been selected to play on the wing. The reason for this move was that it was considered that Ernie Russell had failed to hold down Smith in the now famous match in Ottawa. Alf. Smith will play on the wing tonight, so UNDRAFTED [again, Blachford] was selected for the position because of his general ability, and also for the reason that he is a stiff check and more likely to break a lance with the sturdy Smith boy."
"When Russell found that he was not on the team, so it is said, he gathered up his belongings in the Wanderer room at the Arena, and removed them"
1908 (ECAHA)-
"Ernie Russell, the scoring man of the team, seemed to have an attack of stage fright and he kept well away from the Ottawa defence"
"Ernie Russell, the famous footballer, who caused all the trouble in the Interprovincial Football Union, was up against a situation he could not master. Russell was never prominent, loafing and laying back throughout. The tell-tale aggressiveness which characterized his work on the occasion of his last appearance here was missing, he could not carry the rubber and his shooting was erratic"
"Bowie and Hale as a pair were better than Ernie Russell and Glass. But Glass was steady and played consistently from end to end, while his partner was uncertain”
“The improvement in the work of Russell was the most noticeable feature to the play of the Wanderer forwards. Russell did not earn a place on the score sheet, but he played good hockey all the way, carrying the puck successfully and working close in with Stuart in Wanderer attacks"
“Russell played a lively game, endeavoring, no doubt, to overcome the growing suspicion that he is a dead one”
“On the wings, Blachford and Johnson were better than Hogan and McDonald, but in the centre, Jordan and C. Power had something on Russell and Glass”
“Jovial critics in the 50 cent seats kept asking Russell if he quit at Ottawa. That’s the kind of talk that gets on a player’s nerves”
"Russell made good too at centre, especially in the first part of the second half, when he scored four goals for Wanderers. He worked hard, and in the first half he would have had goals to his credit but for his sensational work by Robinson"
He was named to the 2nd team in a couple of all-star teams made by some fans during the halftime of a game. Marty Walsh was the first team center.
"Russell was in his best form, went in fearlessly on the Quebec nets, and took a lot of heavy checking"
"Russell’s chief claim to notice was his ability to get in with the Quebec defence”
"Ernie Russell played a game that was easily better than anything he had shown this season. He showed himself to be plucky in getting to the trouble centre and his work in getting after the puck in scuffles about the Quebec goal proved exceedingly useful for his side”
“The cup-holders had a changed line up on Saturday and that it worked out well is shown by the result. Ernie Russell, whom the M.A.A.A. expelled for joining Wanderers after promising to play with Montreal, was dropped, and Bruce Stuart, the Ottawa boy and brother of the late Hod Stuart, went on and played a star game. It must have been a very sore touch for Russell after playing all season to be dropped in the deciding game”
“The result [Russell not playing] probably justifies the club’s decision, although Russell has played such good hockey in recent games that many figured out he would be more useful to the team, on account of his scoring ability, than Glass. But Glass, although off color for a while in the first half, was a big source of strength to the champions in the second; his checking was very effective and he kept in the play all the time, although never starring. He watched Walsh, a tricky scorer, so carefully that the Ottawa centre never figured on the score sheet. Glass fairly hung to him whenever Wanderer nets were in danger”
“Wanderers’ officials explained that Russell was dropped for Stuart because of the latter’s ability to bore in on a defence. It was figured that Russell would have too much trouble getting by Taylor”
"Russell was crafty and dangerous around the nets, getting three out of his side’s six goals, but after the first quarter had little success in carrying the rubber. He was checked very hard every time he moved"
“Russell’s anxiety to prove his value was noticeable, and he did not let the smallest opportunity escape him, although the vigilance of Nicholson, Pitre and Laviolette made it difficult for him to use them to the best advantage”
Originally posted in an ATD thread, so there are some redactions: "Russell scored Wanderers one goal in the first half, but his weakness in carrying on the slow surface and indifferent checking made the change, which brought out UNDRAFTED [I don't have the quote in front of me, but I believe Bruce Stuart], work to Wanderers advantage. UNDRAFTED [again, I think it is Bruce Stuart] did not star, but he did a lot of useful work, as well as scoring twice"
“Russell did excellent service on the Montreal forward line”
“The Montreal forward line showed improvement since the opening game against National, and the busiest worker of the lot was Russell, who was always after the puck"
“He made some great plays that [Ernie] Russell, for a comparatively new man"
“[Ernie] Russell kept flying about with amazing rapidity. He was here, there and everywhere, and once or twice he made most unmerciful swipes at pursuers”
“The Montreal defence was fine, Russell and Johnson, of the Montreal forward line, played a good game"
"On the forward line all worked hard, especially Johnston, Coulson, and Russell.
"Montreal gave a nice exhibition of clean, fast hockey, Russell and Sargent in particular showing up well"
1906 (ECAHA)-
“Russell was all around the best forward. His play was cool and heady and that he was effective may be seen in the fact that he came next to Johnson in the scoring line with four goals"
“Ernie Russell at centre played the all around good game, using his head in fine style and keeping free from any dirty work”
“Russell had up till then played a fast clean game and his loss was a severe one for the Wanderers"
“The Wanderers were a disappointment. Ernie Russell was missing from the centre position and his loss was apparent in the lack of cohesion in the forwards’ play”
“Ernie Russell was out again and did some very good work”
“Russell was back in his old place at centre, for the first time since he was injured in the game in Ottawa, and was easily the pick of the Wanderer forward line”
“Lester Patrick and Ernie Russell were the pick of the forwards, though when they wanted to play Pud Glass and Ernie Johnson pranced into the limelight"
“Russell and Johnston played steadily and effectively, but each moved away from his wing”
“He [Russell] had been a thorn in the Ottawa’s side for hours. He had done some of the most magnificent work in the way of shooting ever seen at a hockey match here, and they had been unable to effectually stop his shots, so there was nothing to do but to ‘put him out of business’, and Moore took it upon himself to do so. He has gained high honors as an executioner, and he did his work very well this time”
“Russell, as a rule, was waiting on the side for the puck to come his way, and shoot with admirable position almost from the very spot where it reached his stick, while Glass would walk in with it pretty well”
“Russell, that dangerous little wing…”
“Certainly Johnson and Russell moved all over the shop in that game, just as they did in previous ones, and their wanderings and failing had a considerable effect in the rising score of Ottawa”
“Russell’s strong point is that he is a dangerous shot, Johnson that he is fast and a hard worker”
"For Wanderer, Menard and Patrick were the king pins. The former staved off defeat by his marvellous stops, while Patrick was responsible for the goals scored for his team. Ernie Russell was good in his checking and following up, but rarely got away on a rush”
1907 (ECAHA)-
"Russell was speedy and seemed to be working along, but his play was then not as good as usual"
“On the other side, Blair Russell had the best of his namesake" [Blair Russell was matched up on Ernie Russell, and it sounds like Blair got the better of the contest]
“Russell performed well in the centre, and inasmuch as he captured five of the Wanderer goals, his scoring ability was no small factor in his team’s victory"
“Blachford and Johnson kept the centre supplied all through the game, and Russell and Glass were always in their place to take the expected pass"
“Blatchford played a stronger game than he has played for some time, and the two ‘Ernies’, Russell and Johnson, also did some good steady work”
"The best shot of the bunch and one of the prettiest stick handlers in the game is Ernie Russell. He was at all times very dangerous and was watched pretty closely, but scored about half of the goals for his team"
"Glass, Johnston and Blachford followed back effectively, but Russell loafed”
“Without desiring to say a word in disparagement of Ernie Russell, it is highly probably that the poor exhibition he gave last winter in Ottawa, March 17 was the day that had something to do in Saturday’s results. In the final of the famous series, Russell was a fifth wheel and his services were of little value. On Saturday Ernie Russell played a game that Bowie could well be proud of. Russell took a leaf out of Bowie’s book and jumped for the proper spot near the goal, with the result that six of the tallies are credited to him alone. Not only did Russell loom large on the score sheet, but he earned his goals, and a brace of the were taken after dashing, dodging runs.”
“The Wanderer forwards were steady and useful throughout; Russell sometimes rose to brilliancy, but on the whole their forte was steadiness rather than showiness. The pick of the line was Johnson, this despite the array of goals credited to Russell"
“Russell was at his best as a scorer and six of the Wanderers’ ten are notched up to his credit. His game was useful at all times; he did not mix it up like Blachford and Johnson on the wing, but he hovered around the Ottawa poles in a way that proved deadly to the Senators and Harry Smith had nothing on him tonight for ability to get rid of the disc speedily and accurately. In addition his falling back and checking in centre ice proved useful to the defence"
Originally posted in an ATD thread, so there are redactions: "The story of Russell's desertion was told and retold and garnished with much detail of circumstance. It was said that Russell had been left off the team to meet Ottawa tonight, and that UNDRAFTED (who I don't think as ever actually been selected in the ATD [I believe Cecil Blachford was the name mentioned]) had been selected to play on the wing. The reason for this move was that it was considered that Ernie Russell had failed to hold down Smith in the now famous match in Ottawa. Alf. Smith will play on the wing tonight, so UNDRAFTED [again, Blachford] was selected for the position because of his general ability, and also for the reason that he is a stiff check and more likely to break a lance with the sturdy Smith boy."
"When Russell found that he was not on the team, so it is said, he gathered up his belongings in the Wanderer room at the Arena, and removed them"
1908 (ECAHA)-
"Ernie Russell, the scoring man of the team, seemed to have an attack of stage fright and he kept well away from the Ottawa defence"
"Ernie Russell, the famous footballer, who caused all the trouble in the Interprovincial Football Union, was up against a situation he could not master. Russell was never prominent, loafing and laying back throughout. The tell-tale aggressiveness which characterized his work on the occasion of his last appearance here was missing, he could not carry the rubber and his shooting was erratic"
"Bowie and Hale as a pair were better than Ernie Russell and Glass. But Glass was steady and played consistently from end to end, while his partner was uncertain”
“The improvement in the work of Russell was the most noticeable feature to the play of the Wanderer forwards. Russell did not earn a place on the score sheet, but he played good hockey all the way, carrying the puck successfully and working close in with Stuart in Wanderer attacks"
“Russell played a lively game, endeavoring, no doubt, to overcome the growing suspicion that he is a dead one”
“On the wings, Blachford and Johnson were better than Hogan and McDonald, but in the centre, Jordan and C. Power had something on Russell and Glass”
“Jovial critics in the 50 cent seats kept asking Russell if he quit at Ottawa. That’s the kind of talk that gets on a player’s nerves”
"Russell made good too at centre, especially in the first part of the second half, when he scored four goals for Wanderers. He worked hard, and in the first half he would have had goals to his credit but for his sensational work by Robinson"
He was named to the 2nd team in a couple of all-star teams made by some fans during the halftime of a game. Marty Walsh was the first team center.
"Russell was in his best form, went in fearlessly on the Quebec nets, and took a lot of heavy checking"
"Russell’s chief claim to notice was his ability to get in with the Quebec defence”
"Ernie Russell played a game that was easily better than anything he had shown this season. He showed himself to be plucky in getting to the trouble centre and his work in getting after the puck in scuffles about the Quebec goal proved exceedingly useful for his side”
“The cup-holders had a changed line up on Saturday and that it worked out well is shown by the result. Ernie Russell, whom the M.A.A.A. expelled for joining Wanderers after promising to play with Montreal, was dropped, and Bruce Stuart, the Ottawa boy and brother of the late Hod Stuart, went on and played a star game. It must have been a very sore touch for Russell after playing all season to be dropped in the deciding game”
“The result [Russell not playing] probably justifies the club’s decision, although Russell has played such good hockey in recent games that many figured out he would be more useful to the team, on account of his scoring ability, than Glass. But Glass, although off color for a while in the first half, was a big source of strength to the champions in the second; his checking was very effective and he kept in the play all the time, although never starring. He watched Walsh, a tricky scorer, so carefully that the Ottawa centre never figured on the score sheet. Glass fairly hung to him whenever Wanderer nets were in danger”
“Wanderers’ officials explained that Russell was dropped for Stuart because of the latter’s ability to bore in on a defence. It was figured that Russell would have too much trouble getting by Taylor”
"Russell was crafty and dangerous around the nets, getting three out of his side’s six goals, but after the first quarter had little success in carrying the rubber. He was checked very hard every time he moved"
“Russell’s anxiety to prove his value was noticeable, and he did not let the smallest opportunity escape him, although the vigilance of Nicholson, Pitre and Laviolette made it difficult for him to use them to the best advantage”
Originally posted in an ATD thread, so there are some redactions: "Russell scored Wanderers one goal in the first half, but his weakness in carrying on the slow surface and indifferent checking made the change, which brought out UNDRAFTED [I don't have the quote in front of me, but I believe Bruce Stuart], work to Wanderers advantage. UNDRAFTED [again, I think it is Bruce Stuart] did not star, but he did a lot of useful work, as well as scoring twice"
Scoring Tables (not counting the points that are disputed)
1905 (CAHL)
1906 (ECAHA)
1907 (ECAHA)
1908 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 26 | 2 | 28 |
| 2 | Blair Russell | Victorias | 2 | 22 | 1 | 23 |
| 3 | Joe Power | Quebec HC | 1 | 20 | 0 | 20 |
| 4 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 2 | 18 | 0 | 18 |
| 5 | Eddie Hogan | Quebec HC | 3 | 12 | 0 | 12 |
| T-6 | Colin Foulis | Westmount | 1 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| T-6 | Cavie Howard | Victorias | 3 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| 8 | Art Ross | Westmount | 2 | 9 | 0 | 9 |
| T-9 | Tom Church | Westmount | 3 | 8 | 0 | 8 |
| T-9 | Walter Cummings | Shamrocks | 1 | 8 | 0 | 8 |
| T-11 | Ernie Johnson | Montreal HC | T-1 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| T-11 | G. Ross | Shamrocks | 2 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| T-11 | Ernie Russell | Montreal HC | T-1 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| T-11 | Grover Sargent | Montreal HC | T-1 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
1906 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 29 | 6 | 35 |
| 2 | Harry Smith | Ottawa HC | 1 | 29 | 1 | 30 |
| 3 | Frank McGee | Ottawa HC | 2 | 23 | 2 | 25 |
| 4 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 10 | 14 | 24 |
| 5 | Joe Power | Quebec HC | 1 | 20 | 2 | 22 |
| 6 | Ernie Russell | Wanderers | 1 | 20 | 1 | 21 |
1907 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 37 | 11 | 48 |
| 2 | Ernie Russell | Wanderers | 1 | 38 | 2 | 40 |
| 3 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 1 | 16 | 15 | 31 |
| T-4 | Blair Russell | Victorias | 2 | 21 | 2 | 23 |
| T-4 | Harry Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 20 | 3 | 23 |
1908 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Tommy Phillips | Ottawa HC | 1 | 22 | 12 | 34 |
| 2 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 25 | 5 | 30 |
| 3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 20 | 7 | 27 |
| 4 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 2 | 23 | 3 | 26 |
| 5 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 12 | 12 | 24 |
| 6 | Jack Marshall | Shamrocks | 1 | 17 | 4 | 21 |
| 7 | Chubby Power | Quebec HC | 2 | 16 | 3 | 19 |
| 8 | Bert Morrison | Shamrocks | 2 | 12 | 6 | 18 |
| T-9 | Ernie Russell | Wanderers | 1 | 16 | 1 | 17 |
| T-9 | Joe Eveleigh | Montreal HC | 1 | 14 | 3 | 17 |
Scoring Tables (counting disputed points; split points worth .5 (or .33) points, maybe points given full credit but not added to goals or assists)
1905 (CAHL)
1906 (ECAHA)
1907 (ECAHA)
1908 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 26 | 2 | 28 |
| 2 | Blair Russell | Victorias | 2 | 22 | 1 | 23 |
| 3 | Joe Power | Quebec HC | 1 | 21 | 0 | 21 |
| 4 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 2 | 18.5 | 0 | 18.5 |
| 5 | Eddie Hogan | Quebec HC | 3 | 12.5 | 0 | 12.5 |
| T-6 | Colin Foulis | Westmount | 1 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| T-6 | Cavie Howard | Victorias | 3 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| 8 | Art Ross | Westmount | 2 | 9 | 0 | 9 |
| T-9 | Tom Church | Westmount | 3 | 8 | 0 | 8 |
| T-9 | Walter Cummings | Shamrocks | 1 | 8 | 0 | 8 |
| T-11 | Ernie Johnson | Montreal HC | T-1 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| T-11 | G. Ross | Shamrocks | 2 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| T-11 | Ernie Russell | Montreal HC | T-1 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
| T-11 | Grover Sargent | Montreal HC | T-1 | 7 | 0 | 7 |
1906 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 29.5 | 6 | 35.5 |
| 2 | Harry Smith | Ottawa HC | 1 | 32 | 1 | 33 |
| 3 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 2 | 12.5 | 16.5 | 30 |
| 4 | Frank McGee | Ottawa HC | 3 | 26 | 2 | 28 |
| 5 | Joe Power | Quebec HC | 1 | 24.5 | 2 | 26.5 |
| T-6 | Ernie Russell | Wanderers | 1 | 20.5 | 1 | 21.5 |
| T-6 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 2 | 16.5 | 5 | 21.5 |
1907 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 38.5 | 11.5 | 50 |
| 2 | Ernie Russell | Wanderers | 1 | 38.5 | 2.5 | 41 |
| 3 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 1 | 17.33 | 16 | 34.33 |
| T-4 | Blair Russell | Victorias | 2 | 22 | 3 | 27 |
| T-4 | Harry Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 21 | 4 | 27 |
1908 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Tommy Phillips | Ottawa HC | 1 | 24.5 | 15.33 | 41.83 |
| 2 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 27.33 | 5.5 | 35.83 |
| T-3 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 2 | 27 | 3.5 | 30.5 |
| T-3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 23.5 | 7 | 30.5 |
| 5 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 12 | 13 | 26 |
| 6 | Chubby Power | Quebec HC | 2 | 20.5 | 3 | 23.5 |
| 7 | Jack Marshall | Shamrocks | 1 | 17 | 4 | 21 |
| 8 | Ernie Russell | Wanderers | 1 | 18.83 | 1 | 19.83 |
| 9 | Bert Morrison | Shamrocks | 2 | 13.5 | 6 | 19.5 |
| 10 | Joe Eveleigh | Montreal HC | 1 | 15.5 | 3 | 18.5 |
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Well great, that's just what we need is Si Griffis muddying the waters when we're having a hard enough time sorting out Patrick, Duncan and Cook.
Black Gold Extractor
Registered User
- May 4, 2010
- 3,092
- 4,967
Personally, I consider 1900 (or thereabouts) as a definite line where forwards (including rovers) began to actually flourish. If we're looking at the best skaters in the game (with us being able to draw a direct line from the AHAC to the NHL), we basically start off with three "defensemen" in Jack Campbell to Weldy Young to Mike Grant leading up to 1900.
Then, the forwards bloom: Bowie, McGee, and Phillips being the big three of the 1900's, and then Lalonde, Taylor, and Nighbor being the next generation, and so on and so forth. It takes roughly 30 years for the best skater to be a defenseman again in Eddie Shore, and then it takes another roughly 30 years for Bobby Orr to show up... and that's about it.
Basically, from 1900 to 2023 (and counting), we can definitively say that two defenders were the best in the world when they played... but in the 1890's, three defenders in a row were the best in the world. That's a red flag for me (at least for the forwards).
As for generations pre-consolidation, I would categorize them roughly as:
Before 1887 (before the AHAC)
1887-1892 (before the 5-team AHAC)
1893-1899 (Campbell, Young, and Grant lead the way)
1900-1905 (Bowie and McGee dominate)
1906-1911 (ECAHA to NHA, Bowie gets competition, McGee retires, Taylor's debut, Lalonde's debut)
1912-1920 (PCHA, Nighbor's debut)
1921-1926 (WCHL, Morenz's debut)
My feeling is that there's marked improvement with each generation until the early 1910's.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
It doesn't help that Griffis' isn't quite the offensive dynamo by the time he makes it to the PCHA so our comparisons are going to be largely based on newspaper chatter
Another Griffis quote
The Edmonton Bulletin, November 17, 1914
This year Si will be found at cover point and can be depended upon to show that same skill and speed that characterized his play in professional hockey last year and in preceding seasons. The popular defense star of the Millionaires is american born. He spent his first few years in Onega Kansas with his parent removed (?) to Canada. He became an expert in skating and hockey before he reached his teens and when he graduated into senior company in 1903 in Rat Portage ONT, he was the bright star of the famous thisles contingent which played Ottawa for the Stanley Cup in 1905.Looking at Cook and Duncan more directly a couple more quotes to throw out there to muddy the waters even more and a brief summary of the known captaincy of the Vancouver squad
Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons Captaincy
1921 - Lloyd Cook
1922 - Lloyd Cook
1923 - Art Duncan
1924 - Art Duncan
1925 -Art Duncan
Lloyd Cook New Quotes
The Edmonton Bulletin, March 17, 1923
I've posted this before about Fredrickson, but Cook gets the nod for the 3rd D on the all star team behind Simpson and Loughlin. The paper notes the following....Clem Loughlin is given the call over Lloyd Cook, Amby Moran, Bobby Rowe and Herb Gardiner for the position of LD on his scoring in this city with the Victoria team. In ever department of a defense player he looked better than any of the players just mentioned........Moran loses out because he has not the ability to stop opposing players that is possessed by both Loughlin and Cook. In offensive ability there is little to choose from the among the three. Loughlin is a remarkably clean player which is a point in his favor.....No mention has been made of a certain great defense player Art Duncan of Vancouver because he has been forced into the background by Joe Simpson one outstanding selection for right defense.
The Edmonton Journal, November 17, 1916
The signing of Cook will be welcome news to the hockey fans of Vancouver. Lloyd has been a big star since he jumped into professional company two years ago. He got his early hockey training with famous Cooks of Taber Alberta....In 1914 he came along to Vancouver and lined up with the Millionaires making good from the jump. He developed into a star defenseman and his playeing in the world series against the Ottawa Senators was one of the outstanding features of those contests.
Art Duncan New Quotes
The Edmonton Bulletin, April 6, 1923
Frank Nighbor, the big noise with the Ottawa Senators has picked Joe Simpson and Art Duncan as the most outstanding players who opposed the Ottawa team during their games at the coats.The Edmonton Journal January 11, 1924
Frank Patrick turns down even trade, Joe Simpson for Duncan.
"I have offered a proposition to Frank Patrick manager of the Vancouver Maroons to trade Joe Simpson of the Eskimos for Art Duncan of the Maroons but Mr Patrick will not entertain the proposition declared MacKenzie. He informed me if I had made the proposal last spring he would have made the trade.
The Edmonton Journal October 25, 1924 (This is the best Duncan find I've ever had)
Art Duncan Signs with Vancouver Maroons and will captain the team
Frank Patrick's great defense player changes his mind about remaining in the east - gets boost in salary.
It means too, summer rumors to the contrary and notwithstanding, that the peerless defense leader of the Maroons will be back at his old place in front of Hugh Lehman and once again will inspire his teammates to greater prowess on the ice by his gallant example.....
Standing well over six feet tall, built in proportion a heady and clever stickhandler. Duncan is the terror of opposing defenders. He is about as easy to shift from the puck as a mastiff from a snippy pom. He shoots with bead accuracy and although he takes many falls in the course of season and sometimes mops up acres of ice and athletes he is certainly an outstanding defense star in westerns hockey circles and stands out as one of the modern super stars of the game.
I have spent a lot of time searching for information on it, but in 1920s after the PCHA dropped the rover the Millionaires/Maroons played much more like the 20s Senators than before. with MacKay/Boucher alternating as the Nighbor-like figure.
The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]17 Feb 1925: 13.
The maroons continued their strong defensive tactics, seemingly content to the let the waves of prairie rushes break on the phalanx of Moran, Duncan and MacKay
The Calgary Daily Herald (1908-1939); Calgary, Alberta [Calgary, Alberta]13 Mar 1922: 12.
Cook, Duncan and MacKay herded the raiders into the trap and blocked them on some dangerous runs. They formed a wonderful trio in front of the Vancouver goal….
None of their (Vancouver) forwards wasted time or energy trying to fight their way through to the Regina cage and run the chance of the Caps breaking away and plunging past a weakened barricade.
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ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I've outlined Frank Patrick's playing career but also as a manager he would step in and play if necessary. Making a small leap, Patrick as manager felt his team was safe in Griffis and Cook's hands if he stepped back from playing.
1915 - He retires and Cook and Griffis play defense together for the season until Griffis' injury and Patrick returns for the finals
1916 - Patrick plays sparingly
1917 - Lloyd Cook leaves for Spokane and plays a utility role for the Canaries. The Millionaires noticeably weaker on defense this season so Patrick returns full time for this season.
A passive point in my mind is that Patrick felt Cook was good enough for him to retire and leave the Millionaires in good hands.
1915 - He retires and Cook and Griffis play defense together for the season until Griffis' injury and Patrick returns for the finals
1916 - Patrick plays sparingly
1917 - Lloyd Cook leaves for Spokane and plays a utility role for the Canaries. The Millionaires noticeably weaker on defense this season so Patrick returns full time for this season.
A passive point in my mind is that Patrick felt Cook was good enough for him to retire and leave the Millionaires in good hands.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Re: western defensemen
I'll be ranking Patrick first amongst them this week.
Yes, he absolutely missed time. That's why we're discussing him now and not 3 rounds ago. I think, peak on peak, there's not a whole lot separating Lester and Frank. And peak on peak, he's arguably the best post-1900 player we have this round.
He missed time, but he didn't miss that much time.
Combined games played (all senior leagues)
Lloyd Cook - 450 GP
Art Duncan - 411 GP
Lester Patrick - 197 GP
Si Griffis - 172 GP
Frank Patrick - 132 GP
The gap between Cook/Duncan and Griffis/Patricks can largely be explained to the change in GP/season in the NHL in the late 20s.
Yes, he has the fewest games played. But he's closer to Griffis/Patrick than they are to Duncan/Cook. This rings true too if you exclusively look at NHL/PCHA and ignore the amateur leagues.
Frank Patrick played most of 5 pro seasons, and half of two more. The GP gap pre 1920 between the Patricks is small.
We are already 20 spots back from Lester Patrick. When considering the actual level of play and GP difference, Frank Patrick stands pretty well this week.
I'll be ranking Patrick first amongst them this week.
Yes, he absolutely missed time. That's why we're discussing him now and not 3 rounds ago. I think, peak on peak, there's not a whole lot separating Lester and Frank. And peak on peak, he's arguably the best post-1900 player we have this round.
He missed time, but he didn't miss that much time.
Combined games played (all senior leagues)
Lloyd Cook - 450 GP
Art Duncan - 411 GP
Lester Patrick - 197 GP
Si Griffis - 172 GP
Frank Patrick - 132 GP
The gap between Cook/Duncan and Griffis/Patricks can largely be explained to the change in GP/season in the NHL in the late 20s.
Yes, he has the fewest games played. But he's closer to Griffis/Patrick than they are to Duncan/Cook. This rings true too if you exclusively look at NHL/PCHA and ignore the amateur leagues.
Frank Patrick played most of 5 pro seasons, and half of two more. The GP gap pre 1920 between the Patricks is small.
We are already 20 spots back from Lester Patrick. When considering the actual level of play and GP difference, Frank Patrick stands pretty well this week.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
How many players played in the NHA, NHL, PCHA and W(C)HL?
I can think of just eight. One's tough!
I can think of just eight. One's tough!
Jack Walker
Corb Denneny
Cully Wilson
Harry Meeting
Frank Foyston
Hap Holmes
Bobby Rowe
And........
Lester Patrick, who also played in the ECAHA and the CAHA before that!
Corb Denneny
Cully Wilson
Harry Meeting
Frank Foyston
Hap Holmes
Bobby Rowe
And........
Lester Patrick, who also played in the ECAHA and the CAHA before that!
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ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Looking at the 5 contemporary wingers Noble, Harris, Roberts, Cleghorn & Broadbent
How do we feel they should be ranked?
Noble strikes me as clearly the biggest star based on legacy. I like Smokey Harris and Gordon Roberts a lot especially in an ATD sense based on playstyle. They were both strong offensive secondary stars of the era.
Broadbent, pretty meh on overall.
Cleghorn I probably would have ahead of Broadbent but not by much. He hung around and produced but just at a level below the first three.
How do we feel they should be ranked?
Noble strikes me as clearly the biggest star based on legacy. I like Smokey Harris and Gordon Roberts a lot especially in an ATD sense based on playstyle. They were both strong offensive secondary stars of the era.
Broadbent, pretty meh on overall.
Cleghorn I probably would have ahead of Broadbent but not by much. He hung around and produced but just at a level below the first three.
| Season | Teams GP | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT |
| 1910-1911Renfrew Creamery Kings | 16 | Odie Cleghorn | RW | 16 | 20 | 3 | 23 | 66 | 19% | 55% | 77% |
| 1911-1912Montreal Wanderers | 18 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 17 | 27 | 4 | 31 | 30 | 28% | 78% | 100% |
| 1912-1913Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 20 | 18 | 5 | 23 | 44 | 21% | 48% | 77% |
| 1913-1914Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 13 | 9 | 7 | 16 | 19 | 10% | 36% | 36% |
| 1914-1915Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 15 | 21 | 5 | 26 | 39 | 16% | 76% | 76% |
| 1915-1916Montreal Wanderers | 24 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 21 | 15 | 7 | 22 | 51 | 18% | 56% | 88% |
| 1916-1917Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 18 | 28 | 4 | 32 | 49 | 27% | 67% | 100% |
| 1918-1919Montreal Canadiens | 18 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 18 | 21 | 6 | 27 | 33 | 22% | 82% | 82% |
| 1919-1920Montreal Canadiens | 24 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 21 | 20 | 4 | 24 | 30 | 13% | 49% | 52% |
| 1920-1921Montreal Canadiens | 24 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 21 | 5 | 4 | 9 | 8 | 6% | 21% | 21% |
| 1921-1922Montreal Canadiens | 24 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 24 | 21 | 3 | 24 | 26 | 18% | 52% | 92% |
| 1922-1923Montreal Canadiens | 24 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 24 | 19 | 6 | 25 | 18 | 23% | 68% | 81% |
| 1923-1924Montreal Canadiens | 24 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 22 | 3 | 3 | 6 | 14 | 7% | 25% | 27% |
| 1924-1925Montreal Canadiens | 30 | Odie Cleghorn | Right Wing | 30 | 3 | 3 | 6 | 14 | 4% | 13% | 15% |
| Season | Teams GP | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT |
| 1911-1912Vancouver Millionaires | 15 | Fred Harris | LW | 15 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 55 | 4% | 15% | 15% |
| 1912-1913Vancouver Millionaires | 14 | Fred Harris | RW | 16 | 14 | 6 | 20 | 61 | 19% | 69% | 100% |
| 1913-1914Vancouver Millionaires | 16 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 15 | 14 | 3 | 17 | 33 | 13% | 44% | 44% |
| 1914-1915Portland Rosebuds | 18 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 18 | 14 | 3 | 17 | 39 | 14% | 38% | 57% |
| 1915-1916Portland Rosebuds | 18 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 18 | 10 | 6 | 16 | 75 | 15% | 46% | 55% |
| 1916-1917Portland Rosebuds | 24 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 24 | 18 | 13 | 31 | 38 | 19% | 57% | 69% |
| 1917-1918Portland Rosebuds | 18 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 9 | 5 | 6 | 11 | 19 | 11% | 26% | 52% |
| 1918-1919Vancouver Millionaires | 20 | Fred Harris | LW | 20 | 20 | 6 | 26 | 0 | 22% | 72% | 72% |
| 1919-1920Vancouver Millionaires | 22 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 22 | 14 | 10 | 24 | 19 | 21% | 73% | 100% |
| 1920-1921Vancouver Millionaires | 24 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 24 | 15 | 17 | 32 | 6 | 22% | 100% | 100% |
| 1921-1922Vancouver Millionaires | 24 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 23 | 10 | 4 | 14 | 21 | 12% | 47% | 47% |
| 1922-1923Vancouver Maroons | 30 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 20 | 10 | 6 | 16 | 26 | 9% | 29% | 40% |
| 1923-1924Seattle Metropolitans | 30 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 30 | 8 | 10 | 18 | 30 | 16% | 58% | 64% |
| 1924-1925Boston Bruins | 30 | Fred Harris | Left Wing | 6 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 8 | 6% | 9% | 17% |
| Season | Teams GP | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT |
| 1909-1910Ottawa Senators | 12 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 9 | 13 | 0 | 13 | 34 | 15% | 41% | 68% |
| 1910-1911Montreal Wanderers | 16 | Gord Roberts | LW | 4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 1% | 2% | 5% |
| 1911-1912Montreal Wanderers | 18 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 18 | 16 | 1 | 17 | 28 | 16% | 43% | 55% |
| 1912-1913Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 16 | 17 | 2 | 19 | 22 | 17% | 40% | 63% |
| 1913-1914Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 20 | 31 | 13 | 44 | 15 | 27% | 98% | 100% |
| 1914-1915Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 19 | 29 | 5 | 34 | 74 | 20% | 100% | 100% |
| 1915-1916Montreal Wanderers | 24 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 21 | 18 | 7 | 25 | 64 | 21% | 64% | 100% |
| 1916-1917Vancouver Millionaires | 23 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 23 | 43 | 10 | 53 | 42 | 25% | 98% | 100% |
| 1917-1918Seattle Metropolitans | 18 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 18 | 20 | 3 | 23 | 24 | 20% | 53% | 77% |
| 1919-1920Vancouver Millionaires | 22 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 22 | 16 | 3 | 19 | 13 | 17% | 58% | 79% |
| Season | Teams GP | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT |
| 1912-1913Ottawa Senators | 20 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 18 | 20 | 2 | 22 | 15 | 21% | 46% | 100% |
| 1913-1914Ottawa Senators | 20 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 17 | 6 | 7 | 13 | 61 | 13% | 29% | 46% |
| 1914-1915Ottawa Senators | 20 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 20 | 24 | 3 | 27 | 115 | 28% | 79% | 100% |
| 1918-1919Ottawa Senators | 18 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 8 | 4 | 3 | 7 | 12 | 6% | 21% | 25% |
| 1919-1920Ottawa Senators | 24 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 21 | 19 | 6 | 25 | 40 | 14% | 51% | 61% |
| 1920-1921Ottawa Senators | 24 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 9 | 4 | 1 | 5 | 10 | 3% | 12% | 13% |
| 1921-1922Ottawa Senators | 24 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 24 | 32 | 14 | 46 | 28 | 26% | 100% | 100% |
| 1922-1923Ottawa Senators | 24 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 24 | 14 | 1 | 15 | 34 | 12% | 41% | 44% |
| 1923-1924Ottawa Senators | 24 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 22 | 9 | 4 | 13 | 44 | 11% | 54% | 54% |
| 1924-1925Montreal Maroons | 30 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 30 | 14 | 6 | 20 | 75 | 27% | 43% | 100% |
| 1925-1926Montreal Maroons | 36 | Harry Broadbent | Right Wing | 36 | 12 | 5 | 17 | 112 | 13% | 40% | 40% |
| Season | Teams GP | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT |
| 1916-1917Montreal Canadiens | 20 | Reg Noble | Center | 6 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 15 | 4% | 8% | 13% |
| 1916-1917Toronto Blueshirts | 14 | Reg Noble | Center | 14 | 9 | 3 | 12 | 51 | 15% | 25% | 48% |
| 1917-1918Toronto Arenas | 22 | Reg Noble | Center | 20 | 30 | 10 | 40 | 35 | 25% | 83% | 100% |
| 1918-1919Toronto Arenas | 18 | Reg Noble | Center | 17 | 10 | 5 | 15 | 35 | 16% | 45% | 88% |
| 1919-1920Toronto St. Pats | 24 | Reg Noble | Center | 24 | 24 | 9 | 33 | 52 | 20% | 67% | 92% |
| 1920-1921Toronto St. Pats | 24 | Reg Noble | Center | 24 | 19 | 8 | 27 | 54 | 18% | 63% | 71% |
| 1921-1922Toronto St. Pats | 24 | Reg Noble | Center | 24 | 17 | 11 | 28 | 19 | 18% | 61% | 74% |
| 1922-1923Toronto St. Pats | 24 | Reg Noble | Center | 24 | 12 | 11 | 23 | 47 | 17% | 62% | 62% |
| 1923-1924Toronto St. Pats | 24 | Reg Noble | Center | 24 | 12 | 5 | 17 | 79 | 20% | 71% | 89% |
| 1924-1925Montreal Maroons | 30 | Reg Noble | Center | 27 | 8 | 11 | 19 | 56 | 26% | 41% | 95% |
| 1924-1925Toronto St. Pats | 30 | Reg Noble | Center | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 8 | 1% | 2% | 2% |
| 1925-1926Montreal Maroons | 36 | Reg Noble | Center | 33 | 9 | 9 | 18 | 96 | 14% | 43% | 43% |
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I guess Harry Oliver is also a contemporary if just barely and looks good with this sort of analysis.
But his team based metrics are skewed because the Calgary Tigers did not have very much talent especially when comparing to the other players we're talking about.
But his team based metrics are skewed because the Calgary Tigers did not have very much talent especially when comparing to the other players we're talking about.
| Season | Teams GP | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT |
| 1921-1922Calgary Tigers | 24 | Harry Oliver | Right Wing | 20 | 11 | 6 | 17 | 70 | 16% | 30% | 55% |
| 1920-1921Calgary Canadians | 16 | Harry Oliver | Right Wing | 16 | 15 | 6 | 21 | 11 | 29% | 75% | 100% |
| 1922-1923Calgary Tigers | 30 | Harry Oliver | Right Wing | 29 | 25 | 7 | 32 | 10 | 24% | 74% | 100% |
| 1923-1924Calgary Tigers | 30 | Harry Oliver | Right Wing | 27 | 22 | 12 | 34 | 14 | 26% | 85% | 100% |
| 1924-1925Calgary Tigers | 28 | Harry Oliver | Right Wing | 24 | 20 | 13 | 33 | 23 | 22% | 100% | 100% |
| 1925-1926Calgary Tigers | 30 | Harry Oliver | Right Wing | 30 | 13 | 12 | 25 | 14 | 24% | 57% | 100% |
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Why I'm ranking McDougall in my top half.
His star power in late 1890s hockey is quite high and he has arguably the biggest star power left in the project (Routh, Patrick, Hyland notwithstanding). And his short but very high peak is only matched by Routh amongst remaining players. He played well in Cup games, and was noted as one of the best forwards of the late 1890s (along with Routh and Swift).
All statistics confirmed through @rmartin65's research
He didn't play the whole 1894 season, but right behind Routh, Russell, Swift, and Davidson when he did play.
He finished second to Routh in points in 1895.
He leads the AHAC in 1896. Dolly Swift is the only one who is close (and someone I hope comes up soon).
From the 1 February 1896 game from the Montreal paper
From the 29 February 1896 Montreal paper
He tied for lead league in the AHAC in 1897.
23 January 1897
13 February 1897
He falls back a bit in 1898 in the AHAC, as 5 players finish ahead of him in points. But it is ultimately still a strong season where he is the Victorias' best forward. He finished 4th in points in the 1899 CAHL season, with more goals than Davidson. Arguably again the best Victorias forward.
There's a bit of a log jam for late 1890s forwards. Smith, MacDougall, Bain, Trihey, McKerrow, Davidson, Swift, Routh. I'm struggling to place them all, but I do think MacDougall stands out as the strongest forward of the late 1890s after Bain and Smith.
@rmartin65 included him on his end of year all-star teams in 1895, 1896, and 1897. He wasn't far off in 1898 and then missed most of 1899. In relation to 1899, to quote @rmartin65, "McDougall almost certainly would have made the team had he played more than a couple games (he played only two)."
So basically, McDougall was a star forward from 1894-1899.
However, Routh was also a dominant star for much of this time period too.
In 1893, he leads the AHAC in points.
In 1894, he ties Herb Russell for most points in the AHAC. He doubles the next closest Victoria.
He leads again in 1895. His 16 points is way ahead of McDougall at 2nd with 11.
@rmartin65 names him to his 1893, 1894 and 1895 all-star lists.
And then he plays one more game after the 1895 season.
So he is arguably the best forward in the world (maybe best player in the world) from 1893-1895 and then doesn't play more hockey.
I'm inclined to say that Routh at his best was better than McDougall at his best. But that McDougall played many more games as an elite player than Routh did. I am ultimately going to rank McDougall ahead, but I don't think a ton separates them. And both had certifiable star power.
Both guys flirted with being the best hockey player in the world, or at the very least best forward.
His star power in late 1890s hockey is quite high and he has arguably the biggest star power left in the project (Routh, Patrick, Hyland notwithstanding). And his short but very high peak is only matched by Routh amongst remaining players. He played well in Cup games, and was noted as one of the best forwards of the late 1890s (along with Routh and Swift).
All statistics confirmed through @rmartin65's research
He didn't play the whole 1894 season, but right behind Routh, Russell, Swift, and Davidson when he did play.
He finished second to Routh in points in 1895.
He leads the AHAC in 1896. Dolly Swift is the only one who is close (and someone I hope comes up soon).
From the 1 February 1896 game from the Montreal paper
From the 29 February 1896 Montreal paper
He tied for lead league in the AHAC in 1897.
23 January 1897
13 February 1897
He falls back a bit in 1898 in the AHAC, as 5 players finish ahead of him in points. But it is ultimately still a strong season where he is the Victorias' best forward. He finished 4th in points in the 1899 CAHL season, with more goals than Davidson. Arguably again the best Victorias forward.
There's a bit of a log jam for late 1890s forwards. Smith, MacDougall, Bain, Trihey, McKerrow, Davidson, Swift, Routh. I'm struggling to place them all, but I do think MacDougall stands out as the strongest forward of the late 1890s after Bain and Smith.
@rmartin65 included him on his end of year all-star teams in 1895, 1896, and 1897. He wasn't far off in 1898 and then missed most of 1899. In relation to 1899, to quote @rmartin65, "McDougall almost certainly would have made the team had he played more than a couple games (he played only two)."
So basically, McDougall was a star forward from 1894-1899.
However, Routh was also a dominant star for much of this time period too.
In 1893, he leads the AHAC in points.
In 1894, he ties Herb Russell for most points in the AHAC. He doubles the next closest Victoria.
He leads again in 1895. His 16 points is way ahead of McDougall at 2nd with 11.
@rmartin65 names him to his 1893, 1894 and 1895 all-star lists.
And then he plays one more game after the 1895 season.
So he is arguably the best forward in the world (maybe best player in the world) from 1893-1895 and then doesn't play more hockey.
I'm inclined to say that Routh at his best was better than McDougall at his best. But that McDougall played many more games as an elite player than Routh did. I am ultimately going to rank McDougall ahead, but I don't think a ton separates them. And both had certifiable star power.
Both guys flirted with being the best hockey player in the world, or at the very least best forward.
To piggyback on @jigglysquishy 's post-
MacDougall's total stats are almost certainly more negatively impacted by the lack of complete goal-scorer information than the other top scorers of his time. As I wrote last week-
1894
1895
N/A
1896
N/A
1897
1898
1899
We don't know for sure (and won't until more information is found), but I'm very confident that MacDougall would make up a lot of ground in 1897 and 1898.
Another feather in MacDougall's cap is this quote from 1899 (I believe, before/during the challenge series with Winnipeg):
“Drinkwater should make a great point. McLea and Bob McDougall are both well known to the Winnipeg men. McDougall, in shape, McCulloch considers the best forward playing. Cam. Davidson and Bowie are new men”
Being (possibly) the best forward playing in 1899, a year in which MacDougall did not play very much, carries a good amount of weight for me.
On the flip side, there is also anecdotal evidence that Shirley Davidson, and not Robert MacDougall was "the bright particular star of the Victorias’ forward line", even if MacDougall "perhaps scores more often in a season than any man on the Victoria team" (quotes taken from an article from December 1896).
MacDougall's total stats are almost certainly more negatively impacted by the lack of complete goal-scorer information than the other top scorers of his time. As I wrote last week-
1894
| Team | Goals with No Known Scorer |
| Montreal Victorias | 3 |
| Montreal Crystals | 1 |
1895
N/A
1896
N/A
1897
| Team | Goals with No Known Scorer |
| Montreal Victorias | 17 |
| Montreal Shamrocks | 5 |
| Quebec HC | 4 |
| Ottawa HC | 1 |
1898
| Team | Goals with No Known Scorer |
| Montreal Victorias | 22 |
| Quebec HC | 13 |
| Montreal HC | 7 |
| Montreal Shamrocks | 7 |
| Ottawa HC | 2 |
1899
| Team | Goals with No Known Scorer |
| Ottawa HC | 2 |
| Montreal HC | 1 |
We don't know for sure (and won't until more information is found), but I'm very confident that MacDougall would make up a lot of ground in 1897 and 1898.
Another feather in MacDougall's cap is this quote from 1899 (I believe, before/during the challenge series with Winnipeg):
“Drinkwater should make a great point. McLea and Bob McDougall are both well known to the Winnipeg men. McDougall, in shape, McCulloch considers the best forward playing. Cam. Davidson and Bowie are new men”
Being (possibly) the best forward playing in 1899, a year in which MacDougall did not play very much, carries a good amount of weight for me.
On the flip side, there is also anecdotal evidence that Shirley Davidson, and not Robert MacDougall was "the bright particular star of the Victorias’ forward line", even if MacDougall "perhaps scores more often in a season than any man on the Victoria team" (quotes taken from an article from December 1896).
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I do not have any problem with extrapolating what we don't know using what we do know. The best thing we can assume is that all those unknown goals can be proportionally attributed to the players on the team, and MacDougall would be the greatest beneficiary of that.
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