Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 9
- Thread starter seventieslord
- Start date
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Seventies' VsX equivalents for eligible forwards:
- Cleghorn shows up really well as a producer here. But I can't help but feel that out of the rest of the top-7, he's well behind in star power. I wonder if it's fair that I just can't help but think of him as the lesser brother of Sprague.
- If MacDougall wasn't the top scorer in the east before 1900, then Routh was. But there's so little meat on the bone that I wonder how much benefit of the doubt we can give him for his short career. Those 5, 7 and 10 year scores are based on "0" in years 4-10.
- We are at the point where Dunderdale looks amazing. I think I still like Walsh, who was a bigger star earlier, but Dunderdale put up a lot of numbers for a long time.
- Jack Marshall's numbers are from a half-career, when he played forward. He was a hardrock defenseman after this, during which he had no chance to post numbers worth writing home about. I see him as somewhat of a poor man's Alf Smith.
Marshall actually won the cup 5 times (in much different circumstances), which stood alone as a record until tied by Frank Nighbor, and exceeded by Maurice Richard.
| player | 3y | 5y | 7y | 10y |
| Dunderdale | 94 | 85 | 78 | 71 |
| Roberts | 94 | 83 | 75 | 62 |
| Oliver | 87 | 79 | 76 | 70 |
| Cleghorn | 84 | 77 | 72 | 66 |
| Walsh | 102 | 85 | 62 | 44 |
| Irvin | 93 | 78 | 66 | 51 |
| Russell | 89 | 78 | 69 | 51 |
| Harris | 82 | 74 | 68 | 61 |
| Noble | 74 | 71 | 67 | 59 |
| Broadbent | 77 | 66 | 60 | 53 |
| MacDougall | 91 | 72 | 55 | 38 |
| Darragh | 69 | 66 | 63 | 57 |
| Marshall | 72 | 64 | 53 | 41 |
| Routh | 93 | 56 | 40 | 28 |
- Cleghorn shows up really well as a producer here. But I can't help but feel that out of the rest of the top-7, he's well behind in star power. I wonder if it's fair that I just can't help but think of him as the lesser brother of Sprague.
- If MacDougall wasn't the top scorer in the east before 1900, then Routh was. But there's so little meat on the bone that I wonder how much benefit of the doubt we can give him for his short career. Those 5, 7 and 10 year scores are based on "0" in years 4-10.
- We are at the point where Dunderdale looks amazing. I think I still like Walsh, who was a bigger star earlier, but Dunderdale put up a lot of numbers for a long time.
- Jack Marshall's numbers are from a half-career, when he played forward. He was a hardrock defenseman after this, during which he had no chance to post numbers worth writing home about. I see him as somewhat of a poor man's Alf Smith.
Marshall actually won the cup 5 times (in much different circumstances), which stood alone as a record until tied by Frank Nighbor, and exceeded by Maurice Richard.
Black Gold Extractor
Registered User
- May 4, 2010
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Ah, Haviland Routh. He randomly has, by far, the best peak offensive season (19 goals, 1 confirmed assist) of the early amateur era until Harry Trihey a few years later, and then both are blown out of the water by Bowie a couple years after that.
That being said, it's weird how Trihey is in he HHOF and Routh isn't. There's not that much separating the two players.
In truth, MacDougall should rank ahead easily if only because of "longevity". When MacDougall has you beat on longevity...
Also, am I being weird for being super-high on Frank Patrick all this time? What am I missing that everyone else is seeing?
That being said, it's weird how Trihey is in he HHOF and Routh isn't. There's not that much separating the two players.
In truth, MacDougall should rank ahead easily if only because of "longevity". When MacDougall has you beat on longevity...
Also, am I being weird for being super-high on Frank Patrick all this time? What am I missing that everyone else is seeing?
jigglysquishy
Registered User
McDougall vs Routh is a great discussion to have. Neither is going this round, but it could be the best debate next week. Some of the biggest star power left. Both guys are essential to rank before this project is done.
I've ranked Dunderdale the last couple weeks but never top 4. Is this the week? He always seem to fit as part of the crowd in the back but never as a frontrunner. Seems to match his career quite well. But is he the best offensive resume left?
Noble's VsX is much lower than I would have instinctively thought.
Marshall's career split is hard to quantify.
Griffis stands out.
Is Patrick the best peak defenseman left? How much are we weighing his weird career arc?
This is a difficult round.
I've ranked Dunderdale the last couple weeks but never top 4. Is this the week? He always seem to fit as part of the crowd in the back but never as a frontrunner. Seems to match his career quite well. But is he the best offensive resume left?
Noble's VsX is much lower than I would have instinctively thought.
Marshall's career split is hard to quantify.
Griffis stands out.
Is Patrick the best peak defenseman left? How much are we weighing his weird career arc?
This is a difficult round.
BenchBrawl
Registered User
- Jul 26, 2010
- 31,063
- 13,996
Such a wild and diverse group at this point.
I love how Joe Hall's star is shining the most, with his charismatic violent reputation, yet great longevity (oldest player in hockey at the time of his death), victories and popularity by teammates and fans alike, and untimely death.
"Beware of an old man in a profession where men die young", that's the quote that makes me think about Joe Hall, where "profession" here is being part of the class of famously violent hockey players.
He starts the week as my #1.
I love how Joe Hall's star is shining the most, with his charismatic violent reputation, yet great longevity (oldest player in hockey at the time of his death), victories and popularity by teammates and fans alike, and untimely death.
"Beware of an old man in a profession where men die young", that's the quote that makes me think about Joe Hall, where "profession" here is being part of the class of famously violent hockey players.
He starts the week as my #1.
Dick Irvin was an incredible player of his time. Hard to not have him in my top 10 this round.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Off the top of my head there are at least 12 players I want to give a vote to, including a large handful I've largely ignored to this point: Patrick, Dunderdale, Roberts, Duncan, Broadbent and Russell.
Throw in Noble and Hall, who've gotta be the de facto 1&2 right now, Walsh and McDougall, who already had my support, Oliver, who I wanted to vote for but couldn't, and at least Marshall from the new guys (a swiss army knife who's like a poor man's Alf Smith or another Reg Noble), plus the intriguing Lloyd Cook, and that makes 13.
@ResilientBeast we could really use your Vancouver expertise regarding Duncan and Cook. Duncan's been available for two votes now, and Cook just got here. Is that right? Why or why not?
Duncan must have had some extra notoreity by leading the league in points once, and hanging around as the NHL's oldest player for a few years. Taking a look, you could credit him with 14 seasons of top-level hockey (if you're generous with the season with the battallion). Cook has 10.
On the other hand, Cook has one extra (2nd) PCHA all-star team, and they came generally when the PCHA was stronger (right?) the median year of Cook's PCHA all-star teams is 1919.5 and the median of his 1st teams is 1921. For Duncan both years are 1922.
Throw in Noble and Hall, who've gotta be the de facto 1&2 right now, Walsh and McDougall, who already had my support, Oliver, who I wanted to vote for but couldn't, and at least Marshall from the new guys (a swiss army knife who's like a poor man's Alf Smith or another Reg Noble), plus the intriguing Lloyd Cook, and that makes 13.
@ResilientBeast we could really use your Vancouver expertise regarding Duncan and Cook. Duncan's been available for two votes now, and Cook just got here. Is that right? Why or why not?
Duncan must have had some extra notoreity by leading the league in points once, and hanging around as the NHL's oldest player for a few years. Taking a look, you could credit him with 14 seasons of top-level hockey (if you're generous with the season with the battallion). Cook has 10.
On the other hand, Cook has one extra (2nd) PCHA all-star team, and they came generally when the PCHA was stronger (right?) the median year of Cook's PCHA all-star teams is 1919.5 and the median of his 1st teams is 1921. For Duncan both years are 1922.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
Dick Irvin is a very difficult player to rank for a wide variety of reasons, but he's my number 1 this week, and probably would've been for a few weeks now. I've been working on a big profile of him, which is just about finished and only needs to be put into a post, which will happen later this week.
Despite his flaws, and he did have his flaws, It's tough for me to look past just how highly regarded he was by people who saw him play in his prime. It needs to be said that Irvin wasn't considered a peer of those available for voting this week - he was considered a peer of MacKay, Frederickson, and Keats, and for about five years or so in his prime he was considered by some observers to be the best centre in the world.
Anyway, I'll have all that in my post later. Keep an eye on this space!
I'd also like to hear more about Jack Marshall, who I think is a real contender to be voted in this round. He wasn't some passenger at the end of his career as a defenseman, which I find is often the case with these old guys who play defense once their legs go. I wonder if @rmartin65 could shed some light on how he compared with other top scorers when he played with the Wanderers, if he has time.
Despite his flaws, and he did have his flaws, It's tough for me to look past just how highly regarded he was by people who saw him play in his prime. It needs to be said that Irvin wasn't considered a peer of those available for voting this week - he was considered a peer of MacKay, Frederickson, and Keats, and for about five years or so in his prime he was considered by some observers to be the best centre in the world.
Anyway, I'll have all that in my post later. Keep an eye on this space!
I'd also like to hear more about Jack Marshall, who I think is a real contender to be voted in this round. He wasn't some passenger at the end of his career as a defenseman, which I find is often the case with these old guys who play defense once their legs go. I wonder if @rmartin65 could shed some light on how he compared with other top scorers when he played with the Wanderers, if he has time.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got about dick Irvin, because on the surface he looks like he's behind a great deal of these guys simply on the basis of not playing enough seasons of high-level hockey, and not scoring at a high level in enough of those seasons.
I also get the sense that he was a poor backchecker so he's not even as good as his numbers (which aren't great to begin with).
I also get the sense that he was a poor backchecker so he's not even as good as his numbers (which aren't great to begin with).
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I'll have something for tomorrow talking about the two
I'm glad someone is going to lay out a case for Irvin; I'll admit that I did not have him ranked, but that is quite possibly due to my ignorance. I'm looking forward to reading what you (and others) have to say in his favor.
I'll definitely get to Marshall this week (at least for the seasons I have for him- so 1901-1909). Routh too. If I have time, I'll throw together quotes and stats for the two seasons of Walsh that I have as well. It's a really interesting week for the AHAC/CAHL/ECAHA guys, so I'm hoping to carve out enough time for all of them.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
Defense certainly isn't going to be the backbone of my case, that's for sure. But a big chunk of his bad defensive rep comes from his last few years, when he was just not able to do it anymore because of repeated injuries. At the very least, I think he was a more capable defensive player than Tommy Smith - obviously that's not saying a lot, though.
He's gonna look bad statistically compared to the rest because so much of his prime was spent in amateur hockey, but I hope to show that his production in those years still doesn't do him justice in showing just how dominant and complete of an offensive force he was, over a long stretch of time. I've harped on offensive players whose reputations don't match up with their numbers throughout the project, and I think Irvin is in a unique position where he's an offense-only player whose numbers actually sell him short.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I did not rank Irvin either. I really, really wanted to, and he was an agonizing final cut. I felt like he really should belong in a top-80 but it was a numbers game in the end.
Enjoy! Here is Dick Irvin's bio from my Golden Boys book. I got to interview Dick Irvin Jr. for it which was neat:
Dick Irvin was one of the hockey world's top centerman of the 1920's. He was an exceptional stickhandler who possessed a wicked hard and accurate shot that made goalies look like fools.
One of the greatest NHL coaches of all-time, most hockey fans don't realize that Dick Irvin was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame as a player and not a coach. His playing career seems to get forgotten as the years have gone by. In fact if you're to think of the name Dick Irvin, the first thing that pops into your mind is his son, Dick Irvin Jr, who had a more well-known career as the long-time fabled broadcaster for Hockey Night in Canada.
But don't be fooled, the 5'9'', 162 lbs Irvin was one of the game's all time greats, and arguably the most prolific goal scorer that our province has ever produced. He was always his team's star player and he constantly led his league in goals for a good portion of his career.
"Dick Irvin deserves a book of his own," says Vince Leah. "Many rate him as the finest hockey player ever developed in Manitoba, and his record in amateur and professional hockey as a player and a coach is indeed remarkable."
Irvin's best game came against the Toronto Rugby and Athletic Association, when he scored all nine of his team's goals in a 9-2 win. The feat was huge at the time and it even landed him a page in the first ever Ripley's Believe It or Not book!
James Dickinson "Dick" Irvin was born in Limestone Ridge, Ontario (just outside of Hamilton) on July 19th 1892. His father was a butcher by trade and moved the family to Winnipeg when Dick was around six years old. Dick was one of ten children in the family, six boys and four girls. Two of his brothers died in infancy and all four sisters died of tuberculosis at an early age, so it was Dick and three brothers that were still left by the time the family moved to Winnipeg.
Irvin grew up in the north end at a house on 220 Atlantic Avenue. He went to nearby Machray School, which was located at the intersection of Mountain Avenue and Charles Street, but only up until grade six because that's when his father made him and his brothers work with him in the butcher shop.
Dick started playing hockey soon after the family moved to Winnipeg and followed in the footsteps of his brother Alex, who had started a few years earlier. Dick began playing on his street with a homemade wooden puck before moving on to the outdoor rinks on Selkirk and Atlantic Avenue. In 1902, Dick snuck in the back door of the old Winnipeg Auditorium with some friends to watch a Stanley Cup finals match between the Winnipeg Victorias and Montreal Hockey Club. Seeing the game's best players up close like that inspired Irvin to become one of the best players Winnipeg has ever produced.
Soon after that he started playing Sunday school hockey and then later played for the Strathcona junior team. By the age of twelve he was playing for their senior team. Dick got in all the hockey he could, honing his craft by playing at home on the rink he made on his driveway, skating up and down, starting and stopping, and stickhandling on the narrow area. In the summer he had a goal area chalked up on the garage door and practiced shooting off a flat board imbedded in the ground. On rainy days, he would go up into the attic of his house and shoot pucks at the doorknob of an old door mounted sideways against a wall.
Hockey wasn't the only sport that Irvin played. He also enjoyed curling, bowling, and was a baseball player (shortstop and second base) for the Dominion Express team in the fastball Winnipeg League. Dick's brother, Alex, said that if he had taken up sprinting he would have been outstanding as he always beat the local neighbourhood kids in races.
"I remember he used to tell me how his father got mad at him once for not showing up to work one day because he was playing hockey," recalled Dick Irvin Jr. "and his father said 'you'll never get anywhere chasing that little black thing!'"
Dick's father was actually really encouraging and a positive figure in his son's hockey careers. He just wanted to make sure the work in the butcher shop got done too! Dick's father saw to it that his four sons were well equipped with skates and even bought skates for other kids that were less fortunate in the neighbourhood. The craziest thing is that he would drive his son's hockey team via horse and sleigh to towns like Dugald, Niverville and St. Jean for games. Many times they were lost in blizzards coming home from the games and only the horse's sense of direction got them back home.
In 1907, Irvin played indoors for the first time. His pick-up team in Winnipeg had somehow arranged to play a team from Dauphin in a town arena fourteen miles away from Winnipeg. With no money in those days for transportation, Irvin's father bundled the team together on his bobsleigh hitched to a team of horses and transported them to the arena.
Irvin later recalled the experience of playing indoors for the first time as a "palace of dreams," with the goal posts imbedded in the ice, and no wind to knock them off their feet. It was heaven. Unfortunately on the way home, a blizzard had developed, and the boys had to walk the last twelve miles because their accumulated weight was too much for the horses to handle in those rough conditions.
Irvin always considered the first big thrill he had in hockey was when he was first called up from the Winnipeg Strathconas to play with the Winnipeg Monarchs in 1913-14. "My dad was playing in the church league and I guess he went to watch a Monarchs game one night, it was maybe their third game of the year," said Irvin Jr. "The Monarchs came out for the game with a couple of guys missing who were hurt or sick so they brought him out of the stands to play in the game. I guess they had seen my dad play in the church league and do well, so they brought him out to play and he ended up scoring a few goals that night and played for the Monarchs full-time after that."
"Never in the history of Winnipeg hockey has a played dominated the game as Dick Irvin was able to do during the 1913-14 season," wrote long-time Winnipeg Tribune writer Vince Leah. "Not even the great Dan Bain could compare to the impact Irvin would have on Winnipeg hockey."
Vince Leah made those remarks after Irvin scored 23 goals in an 8 game season.
In that 1913-14 season, the Monarchs made the Western final of the Allan Cup and were slated to play the Kenora Thistles. Dick had played a few games in the church league earlier in the season, so because of that the CAHA ruled him ineligible to play for the Allan Cup. There was a headline in the paper the next day proclaiming "NO ALLAN CUP GAME TONIGHT" and since the CAHA banned their best player, the Monarchs threatened to pull out of the series. It's unlikely they were going to win without Irvin's services.
"The guy who made the ruling for the CAHA," recalled Dick Irvin Jr., "was a guy named William Northey, who became a partner with the people who ran the Montreal Canadiens, and when my dad coached them years later, they were in the same office working together!"
The game was ultimately played with Irvin in the lineup and the Monarchs won 6-2. In a quick turnaround, they were then knocked out of Allan Cup contention just a few nights later when they fell to the Regina Victorias by a 5-4 scoreline.
Irvin got another crack at senior hockey supremacy the following year and made the most of it. His Monarchs won the 1915 Allan Cup and Dick was credited the cup winning goal in the finals against the Melville Millionaires.
When Dick first turned pro, he signed with the PCHA's Portland Rosebuds for $750 and played his first season of professional hockey with them. Irvin's hockey career was really coming on until World War I happened and he was forced to put his hockey on hold for a few years.
Irvin joined the army back in Winnipeg at the Fort Garry Horse regiment of the British Expeditionary Force for World War I. He was a motorcycle dispatch rider in Belgium and France. When the war ended he was in a military hospital since he'd been involved in an accident with his motorcycle so he didn't get back to Winnipeg until April of 1919.
"The funny thing," recalled Dick Irvin Jr., "is when the Monarchs won the Allan Cup in 1915, the city of Winnipeg gave each player a motorcycle. Most of the guys sold it I'm sure for something like $25 or $50 bucks, but my dad learned how to ride his, and so when he joined the army a few years later, he joined as a motorcycle dispatch rider."
When Dick returned to Winnipeg after the war, he got back into hockey right away, and worked for the Dominion Express, which was the original express company of the CPR. It was the UPS, FedEx and Purolator of its time. Irvin was later convinced by the owner of the Regina Victorias to come and play for their senior team. He played two seasons of senior hockey before joining the Regina Capitals of the WCHL.
The closest that Dick ever came to winning a Stanley Cup during his playing career was with the Capitals in the 1921-22 season. The Regina Capitals won the WCHL championship that year and met up with the PCHA champion Vancouver Millionares in a two-game total goals series for the right to play in the Stanley Cup final. Irvin scored the game winning goal in a 2-1 game one victory for Regina, but his Capitals fell 4-0 the following game to lose the series.
The Regina Capitals later fell into money problems and were forced to move the team south of the border to Oregon where they became the Portland Rosebuds. Dick gave up on the sport briefly and stayed in Regina to stick with his summer job as a salesmen for the meat packing company he worked for. He eventually changed his mind and told Portland to send him a train ticket. Dick played the 1925-26 season for the Portland Rosebuds, but after one year there, the league disbanded and all of the league's players dispersed to various NHL teams. Portland sold their whole team to Major Frederic McLaughlin's expansion Chicago Black Hawks.
Dick was already 34 years old when he played his first NHL game so he was already past his prime, but that didn't stop him from having by all accounts one heck of a rookie year. Irvin was named the first captain in franchise history and promptly scored 36 points in 43 games, leading the league in assists and finishing second for points. He also finished 4th in league MVP voting.
For a time, Irvin had the league all-time record for most assists in a season. Back in those days, you only got an assist if you passed in a certain zone of the ice, so assists weren't nearly as common as they are today. It's amazing that even at such an advanced age, Irvin was one of the NHL's best players. Unfortunately his career was essentially suddenly ended by a vicious hit by Montreal Maroons defensemen Red Dutton that fractured Irvin's skull. He tried to return from the injury, but it wasn't happening. He retired during the 1928-29 season and instantly was named the team's head coach.
Dick retired as one of the most prolific goal scorers the game had seen up until that point. He scored a whopping 207 goals in 70 senior hockey games in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Dick also went on to score 152 goals in 250 pro games split between the WCHL and NHL. He won the Allan Cup in 1915 and was a four-time WCHL All-Star. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame for his impressive playing career in 1958.
Irvin got into coaching right away from the time he hung up his skates, and coached Chicago for a few seasons before being fired after the 1930-31 season despite taking his Black Hawks to the Stanley Cup final that year. Chicago's owner was a complete nut job it should be noted. He made something like thirteen coaching changes in eighteen years! Irvin wasn't out of work long as he soon after answered a call from Conn Smythe to coach the Toronto Maple Leafs and won one Stanley Cup (1932) with them in his nine years as coach. He later joined the Montreal Canadiens and coached them for fifteen years and won another three Stanley Cup's (1944, 1946, 1953). In his 26 years of coaching in the NHL, Irvin's team made the playoffs on 24 occasions, and the Stanley Cup finals 16 times! That actually doesn't sound too great if you think about it, as he was 4-12 in Stanley Cup finals. The fact that he constantly iced contending teams however is extremely impressive for as long as he did. Add that with the fact that his 692 regular season wins is good for sixth all time and its cemented that Irvin was one of the greatest coaches in NHL history.
How Dick Irvin got into coaching is an interesting story. During his playing career, he had no idea what he was going to do after he retired from hockey. He thought he would just go back to off-season job at the Patrick Burns Meat Packing Company in Regina and do that throughout the year. That thought process all changed when he joined the Chicago Black Hawks. For a few days one year, the team did some land training in South Bend, Indiana at Notre Dame University. Irvin watched Knute Rockne, a famous American football coach run a practice with the school's football team and he liked what he saw. He thought maybe he could do that, so when the chance to coach the Black Hawks came about, Irvin jumped at it.
A few of Dick Irvin Jr. favourite stories involving his dad's coaching days come from time that Jacques Plante broke in with the Montreal Canadiens in 1953: "Jacques Plante used to wear a toque when he played senior hockey with the Montreal Royals and when he came up to the Canadiens for his first NHL game, it was because their usual starter Gerry McNeil got hurt. My dad made him take off his toque if he was going to play in the NHL and they were saying in the newspapers how Irvin was trying to ruin Plante's career before it even started and he would never recover from not being able to wear his toque. Plante played the game that night against the Rangers and won 3-1. He said after the game he'd never wear the toque again.
"Jacques used to tell me the story before his first NHL playoff game in Chicago. My dad stopped Plante in the hotel lobby the morning of the game and told him 'you're going to play tonight and you're going to get a shutout.' Plante was so nervous before the game that he had to get the trainer to tie up his skates. I bet that made his teammates feel good seeing the new guy playing goal and he can't tie up his skates because he's shaking so much! Anyway, Jimmy McFadden had a breakaway early in the game and Plante stopped him. Montreal won the game and went on to win the series. My dad risked his job with that move − if he lost that game he would have been fired for sure he used to tell me.
Irvin commuted between Regina and wherever he was coaching for the last half of his life. He built a house on Angus Street in Regina and lived for many summers there. The hockey season was much shorter in those days (November to March) so he spent plenty of time in the prairies in his later years. Dick suffered from bone cancer towards the end of his life and died on May 16th 1957 at the age of 64.
"Ron MacLean and I went up to Winnipeg in 2000 after the Hall of Fame there picked an all-time all-star team for Manitoba hockey players," recalled Irvin Jr. "They put my dad as the top coach and Terry Sawchuk was picked as the number one player of all-time for Winnipeg, which was a great choice. Some reporter wrote a column the next day that Irvin's choice was totally wrong and didn't spend enough of his life in Winnipeg to qualify and he thought the top coach should have been Billy Reay. So I did some research and found that my dad spent more of his life in Winnipeg than Sawchuk did. I wrote the guy a letter, but he never acknowledged it. That chicken bastard!"
Correct. Irvin was actually ranked in the top 10 in the Golden Boys book, which ranked Manitoba's top 10 hockey players of all time.
He's easily a top 80 player here in this thing and deserves a decent ranking at that!
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Actually, there's a player coming up soon whose case will depend on his amateur years, and the main reason I value them so much is because of his level of dominance and what players they came against. I know Irvin played a lot of amateur but don't know much about the competition level. I'm going to have to look into that.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
From 1911-12 through 15-16 it sure looks like Irvin was the best player in manitoba amateur hockey, I'm just not sure what that means considering the names of recognizable players in those seasons are few and far between.
in 16-17 he had an excellent year in the PCHA (5th in scoring) which helps provide backup for him being that good in the surrounding seasons.
In 17-18 we start to see more names: Walter Smaill, on the way down following a decent career at the top level, Emory Sparrow, who would soon embark on an unremarkable 5 WCHL season career, Wilf Loughlin, who played 6 full or partial seasons at the top levels (and was not a game changing player), Slim Halderson, who was about at Smaill's level, and pretty good defenseman Abbie Newell.
In 19-20 through 21-22 in the Saskatchewan senior league, you can add Gizzy Hart, who had a decent WCHL career, and George Hay, who is of course a hall of famer. It looks like on a per-game basis, Irvin was the best scorer in this league the whole time.
in 16-17 he had an excellent year in the PCHA (5th in scoring) which helps provide backup for him being that good in the surrounding seasons.
In 17-18 we start to see more names: Walter Smaill, on the way down following a decent career at the top level, Emory Sparrow, who would soon embark on an unremarkable 5 WCHL season career, Wilf Loughlin, who played 6 full or partial seasons at the top levels (and was not a game changing player), Slim Halderson, who was about at Smaill's level, and pretty good defenseman Abbie Newell.
In 19-20 through 21-22 in the Saskatchewan senior league, you can add Gizzy Hart, who had a decent WCHL career, and George Hay, who is of course a hall of famer. It looks like on a per-game basis, Irvin was the best scorer in this league the whole time.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
It should also be pointed out that there are two big factors that lessen the 'name recognition' factor for the Manitoba leagues in the mid-1910s. First, many players simply did not want to pursue a professional career in the game, even though they were definitely good enough to play. Alex Romeril is the first name to come to mind, who'd end up being the first coach of the Maple Leafs. So by not having that time spent playing against pro competition, we don't ever see their names pop up unless you specifically search through the amateur game reports.
The second, and probably more important factor, is that a number of players were killed in the war. Harry MacKenzie and Ollie Turnbull are the first two that come to mind. Both were very good players and would've easily gone pro if they'd decided to pursue that path upon returning from Europe.
The second, and probably more important factor, is that a number of players were killed in the war. Harry MacKenzie and Ollie Turnbull are the first two that come to mind. Both were very good players and would've easily gone pro if they'd decided to pursue that path upon returning from Europe.
At the risk of diverting the conversation- I'm actually a pretty big fan of Walter Smaill. He was just a name to me before this project, but I'm pretty sure I'd have him in my top-80 if I had the chance to re-do my list.
To tie this back into eligible players- I don't think there was much (if anything) separating Marshall and Smaill as coverpoints in 1909. Marshall was, based on my readings, the superior defensive player, but Smaill was much more dynamic, and when Cobalt went looking for ringers, it was Smaill (and Ross) that they went after (a reported $800 dollars for two games).
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I like Smaill a lot too, but he seems more like a glue guy than a prominent player that should make a top-anything list.
But seriously, I love the guy! I don't know if there's anyone I've drafted in ATD/MLD/AAA things before, he must have been a spare for me like 5 years in a row.
Jack Marshall
Jack Marshall is another one of the iron-men of early-era hockey; I believe he started playing Senior level hockey in 1901, survived the amateur/professional divide, and played well into the NHA before retiring in 1917. He also has a pretty nice record of being a winner (if team achievements are your thing), being a member of 6 SC teams (4 distinct clubs). Selection of Quotes (1902-1909)-
1902 (CAHL)-
“Marshall, by the way, has shown what his western experience has done for him. During his visit here with the Winnipeg team he had little opportunity to prove his mettle”
“On the forwards Jack Marshall was the bright particular star, and he was ably supported by Liffiton and Hooper, who rushed effectively”
“On the forward line Marshall worked hard, but not effectively”
“Marshall and Liffiton played a fast and steady game, but they seemed to lack the combination plays looked for, and which they must have to win the championship”
“Boon was the star of the entire fourteen men, and it would be hard to say whether Marshall, Liffiton, or Hooper was the more brilliant. Gardner was very poor”
“Marshall and Hooper played hard games, but both missed a number of rather easy chances”
Charlie Liffiton and Jack Marshall simply couldn’t be stopped”
1903 (CAHL)-
“Marshall sailed about the ice in a wonderfully reckless manner and received a few odd bumps. This young man ought to do a little figuring on the law of velocities, because the fence is usually strong enough to withstand the shock of collision with heavier men than John Marshall”
“Liffiton also played well, but Marshall and Hooper couldn’t make it go”
“Marshall, Hooper, and Gardner all played well individually, but their team work was comparatively poor, and they were rarely able to take the puck to within dangerous shooting distance of the nets by concerted rushes. Each of them, however, gave frequent exhibitions of clever stick handling, and made pretty individual rushes”
“Marshall was not quite quick enough for Jordan in facing the puck, but he kept his place well and was there when wanted”
“Phillips, Marshall and Hooper were the stars”
1904 (FAHL)-
“Marshall was the hardest worked man on the line, and played in his own inimitable way, bumping into everything, the goal net included”
“Of what good hockey there was, it appeared that Ottawa had a shade the better argument, and only the brilliant individual work of Mallan and Marshall aided in saving the Wanderers from what appeared to be certain defeat”
“Marshall loafed offside persistently”
1905 (FAHL)-
“Marshall and Price were noticeable workers”
“Marshall contributed most of the excitement of the game, and some of his trips down the ice were positively of the [illegible] variety”
“As a plugger there are not many to beat Jack Marshall”
“Boon played a star game, and so did Marshall, and between the two they were responsible for most of the games scored”
“The other star on the visitors’ team was Marshall. As a centre he was a first rank man in every way. His stickhandling enabled him at times to draw from McGee, and he was very strong on his feet. He knows the solidity of Moore’s body, too, for he was constantly running up against him”
“Jack Marshall and Glass were undoubtedly the cleanest players on the ice”
“Marshall, as usual, was weak in shooting”
1906- Did not play?
1907 (Split between FAHL and ECAHA; all quotes from his time in the FAHL, I don’t have anything written about him in the ECAHA this season)
“Although deprived of the services of Pitre and Laviolette, who, at the last moment, decided not to be false to the American Soo, the Montagnards were well repaid in taking Jack Marshall on the lucky seven. Marshall, who had not handled the stick for the past three years, played a very good game and contributed a large share to the result of the evening”
“Jack Marshall was also a conspicuous figure for the French team, being a big factor in many of the rushes”
“Jack Marshall was a conspicuous figure in the garnet of the French team. He, like Ross, frequently joined in the rushes of the forwards and was always a big factor in the game”
1908 (ECAHA)-
“Laviolette and McNamara were the stars of the lot Saturday night, with the veteran, Jack Marshall, not far behind”
“Marshall was tricky in his scoring, beating out Lockerby five times in the evening”
“Marshall proved himself as good as ever, just as reckless and just as good a scorer, and seemed to be strong and in excellent condition”
“Marshall and Macnamare were easily the next best, although Marshall does not seem physically very strong, at times. But he also astonished people by the way in which he took the heavy ice, and he showed the same daredevil spirit that has characterized his play for years”
“Morrison and Marshall in centre ice also covered their men in great shape”
“Jack Marshall, although he scored the Irishmen’s one goal, was not playing up to season’s form”
“even Jack Marshall was somewhat weak”
“A year ago Jack Marshall was looked upon as a dead one, but he is on deck this season with all his old-time scoring ability”
“Morrison and Marshall did the scoring for the team and were persistent in getting back and covering Bowie and Hale when Shamrocks’ net was in danger”
“Marshall played like a 3 year old, and was all over the ice”
“Marshall was no match for Marty Walsh”
“Marshall’s best work likewise was in holding down Walsh, and in this Marshall succeeded better in the first half than in the second. Walsh is a dangerous man around the nets and takes a lot of watching”
1909 (ECHA)-
“Marshall made a good job of the cover point position and was really the best player on the team. His worst fault was that in trying to help out the attack he left his defence open, with fatal results a couple of times”
“Marshall tried hard but had not the ability”
“Jack Marshall, despite his increasing years, showed that he still has lots of good hockey left in him and playing in better company would probably still rank among the stars. In last night’s game he was the only man of the Shamrocks who began to play Taylor at all effectively. Time and again when the speedy cover point came away with his sensational rushes Marshall got to him in time to rob him at the critical moment. It was done without any undue slashing or apparent effort- just a nice easy tipping away of the puck from the big fellow’s stick and it was all over”
“Marshall was another player to fight out and interesting duel with the speedy Taylor. Marshall in a quiet way was the most effective player on the Shamrock side both in defence and in attack. He was the only one of the home seven to block Taylor consistently, and this he did most effectively by waiting util Taylor drew even with him, then, springing out, and with a smart poke of the stick, turning the disc away to the right or the left. Marshall in this manner saved Shamrocks several times when scores looked inevitable. The Shamrock rover also did good work in the attack, scoring twice and being easily the best player on the line”
“Laviolette and Marshall breaking up whatever combination the Ottawas attempted and easily despoiling the individual rushes of Taylor and Lake”
“Marshall showed all his old time headwork”
“Laviolette, Marshall and Hyland were the best for the visitors”
“ Laviolette and Marshall made a defence that was difficult to work through, though individually the players did not shine as much as Ross and Smaill at the other end. Their checking, however, was marked by excellent judgment, and was most effective”
“Marshall continues to play his clean, useful game”
“For the winners, Smaill and Johnson played the best hockey, while the only redeeming feature of the Shamrocks’ game was the defence of Jack Marshall and Laviolette. Both of them played good hockey, the latter plus the usual frills as is his wont”
“Marshall played an effective game, blocking with great skill”
“From Baker to Hyland, all the members of the team deserve credit, and Jack Marshall is as much of a wonder as that other veteran, Jimmy Gardner”
“Marshall was invaluable at cover”
“What at first sight seemed like another smallsized calamity, the absence of Laviolette, was apparently turned into a bit of good fortune, for Harold Macnamara played a fine game on the defence, and Jack Marshall, one of the best ever, worked in with him so well, that Baker had little to do during the greater part of the first half”
“Marshall at cover checked well, but was slow and often held the puck too long. He was nonetheless the best of the Irishmen”
“Marshall, by the way, has shown what his western experience has done for him. During his visit here with the Winnipeg team he had little opportunity to prove his mettle”
“On the forwards Jack Marshall was the bright particular star, and he was ably supported by Liffiton and Hooper, who rushed effectively”
“On the forward line Marshall worked hard, but not effectively”
“Marshall and Liffiton played a fast and steady game, but they seemed to lack the combination plays looked for, and which they must have to win the championship”
“Boon was the star of the entire fourteen men, and it would be hard to say whether Marshall, Liffiton, or Hooper was the more brilliant. Gardner was very poor”
“Marshall and Hooper played hard games, but both missed a number of rather easy chances”
Charlie Liffiton and Jack Marshall simply couldn’t be stopped”
1903 (CAHL)-
“Marshall sailed about the ice in a wonderfully reckless manner and received a few odd bumps. This young man ought to do a little figuring on the law of velocities, because the fence is usually strong enough to withstand the shock of collision with heavier men than John Marshall”
“Liffiton also played well, but Marshall and Hooper couldn’t make it go”
“Marshall, Hooper, and Gardner all played well individually, but their team work was comparatively poor, and they were rarely able to take the puck to within dangerous shooting distance of the nets by concerted rushes. Each of them, however, gave frequent exhibitions of clever stick handling, and made pretty individual rushes”
“Marshall was not quite quick enough for Jordan in facing the puck, but he kept his place well and was there when wanted”
“Phillips, Marshall and Hooper were the stars”
1904 (FAHL)-
“Marshall was the hardest worked man on the line, and played in his own inimitable way, bumping into everything, the goal net included”
“Of what good hockey there was, it appeared that Ottawa had a shade the better argument, and only the brilliant individual work of Mallan and Marshall aided in saving the Wanderers from what appeared to be certain defeat”
“Marshall loafed offside persistently”
1905 (FAHL)-
“Marshall and Price were noticeable workers”
“Marshall contributed most of the excitement of the game, and some of his trips down the ice were positively of the [illegible] variety”
“As a plugger there are not many to beat Jack Marshall”
“Boon played a star game, and so did Marshall, and between the two they were responsible for most of the games scored”
“The other star on the visitors’ team was Marshall. As a centre he was a first rank man in every way. His stickhandling enabled him at times to draw from McGee, and he was very strong on his feet. He knows the solidity of Moore’s body, too, for he was constantly running up against him”
“Jack Marshall and Glass were undoubtedly the cleanest players on the ice”
“Marshall, as usual, was weak in shooting”
1906- Did not play?
1907 (Split between FAHL and ECAHA; all quotes from his time in the FAHL, I don’t have anything written about him in the ECAHA this season)
“Although deprived of the services of Pitre and Laviolette, who, at the last moment, decided not to be false to the American Soo, the Montagnards were well repaid in taking Jack Marshall on the lucky seven. Marshall, who had not handled the stick for the past three years, played a very good game and contributed a large share to the result of the evening”
“Jack Marshall was also a conspicuous figure for the French team, being a big factor in many of the rushes”
“Jack Marshall was a conspicuous figure in the garnet of the French team. He, like Ross, frequently joined in the rushes of the forwards and was always a big factor in the game”
1908 (ECAHA)-
“Laviolette and McNamara were the stars of the lot Saturday night, with the veteran, Jack Marshall, not far behind”
“Marshall was tricky in his scoring, beating out Lockerby five times in the evening”
“Marshall proved himself as good as ever, just as reckless and just as good a scorer, and seemed to be strong and in excellent condition”
“Marshall and Macnamare were easily the next best, although Marshall does not seem physically very strong, at times. But he also astonished people by the way in which he took the heavy ice, and he showed the same daredevil spirit that has characterized his play for years”
“Morrison and Marshall in centre ice also covered their men in great shape”
“Jack Marshall, although he scored the Irishmen’s one goal, was not playing up to season’s form”
“even Jack Marshall was somewhat weak”
“A year ago Jack Marshall was looked upon as a dead one, but he is on deck this season with all his old-time scoring ability”
“Morrison and Marshall did the scoring for the team and were persistent in getting back and covering Bowie and Hale when Shamrocks’ net was in danger”
“Marshall played like a 3 year old, and was all over the ice”
“Marshall was no match for Marty Walsh”
“Marshall’s best work likewise was in holding down Walsh, and in this Marshall succeeded better in the first half than in the second. Walsh is a dangerous man around the nets and takes a lot of watching”
1909 (ECHA)-
“Marshall made a good job of the cover point position and was really the best player on the team. His worst fault was that in trying to help out the attack he left his defence open, with fatal results a couple of times”
“Marshall tried hard but had not the ability”
“Jack Marshall, despite his increasing years, showed that he still has lots of good hockey left in him and playing in better company would probably still rank among the stars. In last night’s game he was the only man of the Shamrocks who began to play Taylor at all effectively. Time and again when the speedy cover point came away with his sensational rushes Marshall got to him in time to rob him at the critical moment. It was done without any undue slashing or apparent effort- just a nice easy tipping away of the puck from the big fellow’s stick and it was all over”
“Marshall was another player to fight out and interesting duel with the speedy Taylor. Marshall in a quiet way was the most effective player on the Shamrock side both in defence and in attack. He was the only one of the home seven to block Taylor consistently, and this he did most effectively by waiting util Taylor drew even with him, then, springing out, and with a smart poke of the stick, turning the disc away to the right or the left. Marshall in this manner saved Shamrocks several times when scores looked inevitable. The Shamrock rover also did good work in the attack, scoring twice and being easily the best player on the line”
“Laviolette and Marshall breaking up whatever combination the Ottawas attempted and easily despoiling the individual rushes of Taylor and Lake”
“Marshall showed all his old time headwork”
“Laviolette, Marshall and Hyland were the best for the visitors”
“ Laviolette and Marshall made a defence that was difficult to work through, though individually the players did not shine as much as Ross and Smaill at the other end. Their checking, however, was marked by excellent judgment, and was most effective”
“Marshall continues to play his clean, useful game”
“For the winners, Smaill and Johnson played the best hockey, while the only redeeming feature of the Shamrocks’ game was the defence of Jack Marshall and Laviolette. Both of them played good hockey, the latter plus the usual frills as is his wont”
“Marshall played an effective game, blocking with great skill”
“From Baker to Hyland, all the members of the team deserve credit, and Jack Marshall is as much of a wonder as that other veteran, Jimmy Gardner”
“Marshall was invaluable at cover”
“What at first sight seemed like another smallsized calamity, the absence of Laviolette, was apparently turned into a bit of good fortune, for Harold Macnamara played a fine game on the defence, and Jack Marshall, one of the best ever, worked in with him so well, that Baker had little to do during the greater part of the first half”
“Marshall at cover checked well, but was slow and often held the puck too long. He was nonetheless the best of the Irishmen”
Scoring Tables (not counting the points that are disputed)-
1902 (CAHL)
1903 (CAHL)
1904 (FAHL)
1905 (FAHL)
1906- Did not play?
1907- Split season between FAHL and ECAHA, stats not significant
1908 (ECAHA)
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Archie Hooper | Montreal HC | 1 | 14 | 0 | 14 |
| 2 | Rat Westwick | Ottawa HC | 1 | 12 | 1 | 13 |
| 3 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| 4 | Jack Marshall | Montreal HC | 2 | 10 | 0 | 10 |
| 5 | Bruce Stuart | Ottawa HC | 2 | 9 | 1 | 10 |
1903 (CAHL)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| T-1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 20 | 3 | 23 |
| T-1 | Frank McGee | Ottawa HC | 1 | 14 | 9 | 23 |
| 3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 9 | 3 | 12 |
| T-4 | Suddy Gilmour | Ottawa HC | 2 | 9 | 2 | 11 |
| T-4 | Jack Marshall | Montreal HC | 1 | 7 | 4 | 11 |
| T-4 | Rat Westwick | Ottawa HC | 2 | 5 | 6 | 11 |
1904 (FAHL)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Jack Marshall | Wanderers | 1 | 10 | 2 | 12 |
| T-2 | Edgar Dey | Capitals | 1 | 9 | 0 | 9 |
| T-2 | Percy Sims | Capitals | 2 | 8 | 1 | 9 |
| T-4 | Alphonse Prevost | Le National | 1 | 8 | 0 | 8 |
| T-4 | Jimmy Gardner | Wanderers | 2 | 5 | 3 | 8 |
1905 (FAHL)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Frank McGee | Ottawa HC | 1 | 18 | 3 | 21 |
| 2 | Rat Westwick | Ottawa HC | 2 | 12 | 7 | 19 |
| 3 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 9 | 8 | 17 |
| 4 | Jack Marshall | Wanderers | 1 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| 5 | Pud Glass | Wanderers | 2 | 8 | 1 | 9 |
1906- Did not play?
1907- Split season between FAHL and ECAHA, stats not significant
1908 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Tommy Phillips | Ottawa HC | 1 | 22 | 12 | 34 |
| 2 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 25 | 5 | 30 |
| 3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 20 | 7 | 27 |
| 4 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 2 | 23 | 3 | 26 |
| 5 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 12 | 12 | 24 |
| 6 | Jack Marshall | Shamrocks | 1 | 17 | 4 | 21 |
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 1 | 38 | 5 | 43 |
| 2 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 29 | 4 | 33 |
| 3 | Bruce Stuart | Ottawa HC | 2 | 20 | 11 | 31 |
| 4 | Dubbie Kerr | Ottawa HC | 3 | 17 | 7 | 24 |
| 5 | Chubby Power | Quebec HC | 2 | 18 | 3 | 21 |
| 6 | Harry Hyland | Shamrocks | 1 | 19 | 1 | 20 |
| 7 | Jimmy Gardner | Wanderers | 1 | 11 | 8 | 19 |
| T-8 | Walter Smaill | Wanderers | 2 | 9 | 8 | 17 |
| T-8 | Cyclone Taylor | Ottawa HC | 4 | 8 | 9 | 17 |
| T-10 | Pud Glass | Wanderers | 3 | 15 | 1 | 16 |
| T-10 | Steve Vair | Wanderers | 4 | 12 | 4 | 16 |
| 12 | Ernie Johnson | Wanderers | 5 | 10 | 5 | 15 |
| T-13 | Billy Gilmour | Ottawa HC | 5 | 8 | 5 | 13 |
| T-13 | Jack Marshall | Shamrocks | 2 | 8 | 5 | 13 |
Scoring Tables (counting disputed points; split points worth .5 (or .33) points, maybe points given full credit but not added to goals or assists)-
1902 (CAHL)
1903 (CAHL)
1904 (FAHL)
1905 (FAHL)
1906- Did not play?
1907- Split season between FAHL and ECAHA, stats not significant
1908 (ECAHA)
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Archie Hooper | Montreal HC | 1 | 16.5 | 0.5 | 17 |
| 2 | Rat Westwick | Ottawa HC | 1 | 12 | 1.5 | 14.5 |
| 3 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 13.5 | .5 | 14 |
| 4 | Jack Marshall | Montreal HC | 2 | 11.5 | 0.5 | 11.5 |
| 5 | Bruce Stuart | Ottawa HC | 2 | 9 | 1 | 10 |
1903 (CAHL)
| 1 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 21.5 | 3 | 24.5 |
| 2 | Frank McGee | Ottawa HC | 1 | 14.83 | 9.5 | 24.33 |
| 3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 11 | 3 | 14 |
| 4 | Suddy Gilmour | Ottawa HC | 2 | 9.83 | 2 | 11.83 |
| T-4 | Jack Marshall | Montreal HC | 1 | 7.5 | 4 | 11.5 |
| T-4 | Rat Westwick | Ottawa HC | 2 | 5.5 | 6 | 11.5 |
1904 (FAHL)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Jack Marshall | Wanderers | 1 | 10.5 | 2 | 12.5 |
| 2 | Edgar Dey | Capitals | 1 | 9.5 | 0 | 10.5 |
| 3 | Percy Sims | Capitals | 2 | 9.33 | 1 | 10.33 |
| 4 | Alphonse Prevost | Le National | 1 | 9 | 0 | 9 |
| 5 | Ken Mallen | Cornwall HC Wanderers | NA | 8.17 | 0 | 8.17 |
1905 (FAHL)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Frank McGee | Ottawa HC | 1 | 19.5 | 3 | 23.5 |
| 2 | Rat Westwick | Ottawa HC | 2 | 14 | 7 | 22 |
| 3 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 10.5 | 8 | 19.5 |
| 4 | Jack Marshall | Wanderers | 1 | 13 | 0 | 13 |
| 5 | Pud Glass | Wanderers | 2 | 10 | 1 | 11 |
1906- Did not play?
1907- Split season between FAHL and ECAHA, stats not significant
1908 (ECAHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Tommy Phillips | Ottawa HC | 1 | 24.5 | 15.33 | 41.83 |
| 2 | Russell Bowie | Victorias | 1 | 27.33 | 5.5 | 35.83 |
| T-3 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 2 | 27 | 3.5 | 30.5 |
| T-3 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 23.5 | 7 | 30.5 |
| 5 | Alf Smith | Ottawa HC | 3 | 12 | 13 | 26 |
| 6 | Chubby Power | Quebec HC | 2 | 20.5 | 3 | 23.5 |
| 7 | Jack Marshall | Shamrocks | 1 | 17 | 4 | 21 |
1909 (ECHA)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Marty Walsh | Ottawa HC | 1 | 41.33 | 7 | 49.33 |
| 2 | Herb Jordan | Quebec HC | 1 | 31.5 | 4 | 36.5 |
| 3 | Bruce Stuart | Ottawa HC | 2 | 20.83 | 13 | 33.83 |
| 4 | Dubbie Kerr | Ottawa HC | 3 | 19.83 | 7 | 26.83 |
| 5 | Chubby Power | Quebec HC | 2 | 19 | 3.5 | 24.5 |
| 6 | Harry Hyland | Shamrocks | 1 | 19.5 | 1 | 20.5 |
| 7 | Jimmy Gardner | Wanderers | 1 | 11.5 | 8.5 | 20 |
| 8 | Cyclone Taylor | Ottawa HC | 4 | 8 | 10.5 | 19.5 |
| 9 | Pud Glass | Wanderers | 2 | 16 | 1.33 | 18.33 |
| T-10 | Steve Vair | Wanderers | T-3 | 12.5 | 4 | 17.5 |
| T-10 | Walter Smaill | Wanderers | T-3 | 9.5 | 8 | 17.5 |
| 12 | Billy Gilmour | Ottawa HC | 5 | 9.5 | 6 | 15.5 |
| 13 | Ernie Johnson | Wanderers | 5 | 10 | 5.33 | 15.33 |
| 14 | Jack Marshall | Shamrocks | 2 | 9 | 5.5 | 14.5 |
As always, all the stats were compiled in good faith; please let me know if you spot any errors, and I'll be glad to fix them.
The 1909 quote about Marshall being "one of the best ever" notwithstanding, I think Marshall, through 1909, at least, was a second-tier star. Good not great numbers as a scorer- don't be fooled by him leading the FAHL in scoring in 1904, that was not a strong league until Ottawa HC joined the next year, and even then, it was a two team league (and Marshall was on one of the good teams) . More of a hard worker than a guy who won with talent.
Oh, I don't see the Alf Smith comparison, though, @seventieslord , I'm interested in hearing more about that. Smith was a physical monster with a good amount of skill and playmaking ability. Marshall (again, at least through 1909) was a hard worker, but he seems to have had a pretty clean reputation and wasn't nearly the set-up man that Smith was.
Can I trouble you for insight into Frank Patrick as well?
Here is what I have on him from 2 seasons in the CAHL (1904 and 1905) and a season in the ECAHA (1908)
1904- Frank Patrick played RW for the Montreal Victorias for a handful of games (5, I believe), scoring 4 goals.
“Patrick, late of Westmount, made his appearance in a Victoria uniform, and played at right wing. Considering the importance of the contest, and the fact that he was playing a side position and not a centre one, such as he has been accustomed to, the suburbanite did exceedingly well. However, he was a trifle too anxious and made an effort to do more than his own share of the work”
“Patrick, another Westmount man on the VIctoria team, seemed not quite at home, but shows considerable promise”
“Patrick was an aid to the other two men as far as carrying the puck down the ice was concerned, but when it came to shooting he was not there with the goods”
“Patrick played his wing well, but finds the net difficult to locate”
1905- Frank Patrick plays two or three games for Montreal Westmount, this time at LW and maybe center.
“That was the principal weakness for the Patricks. They got made too easily, and with the double referee system, or rather the referee and umpire system, very little in the way of loss of temper, when exhibited, escapes the officials”
“Otherwise they [the Patricks] are magnificent players”
“The two Patricks and Ross did the most sensational work for Westmount, and the most telling”
1908- Frank Patrick returns to Senior level hockey, having spent the 1906 and 1907 seasons with McGill University. Patrick is now playing point, and is neck-and-neck with Art Ross for being the best at that position. He leads all points and covers in points (7+8=15, Cyclone Taylor (9+1=10) and Walter Smaill (6+4=10) tie for second in scoring among these positions, and Art Ross comes in fourth with 6+3=9). He was named to the second all star team created by a group of fans during the half-time of one of the games (Ross was on the first team at point)
“...had it not been for the good work by Robinson and Patrick on the Vic. defence, combined with erratic shooting by Shamrock forwards, the score would probably have been tied”
“Frank Patrick is the decided acquisition for Victoria; he played steller hockey in the first half, and in the second the general falling off in the team’s play kept him too busy at his own end of the rink for many of the dashes with which he enlivened the first. He is a fast and a clever stick handler, and with his weight is an ideal defence player under the new style”
“Frank Patrick did some very fine work, and is a find for the Vics, having improved considerably since last year”
“But in their work Bowie, Hall, Russel and Gilmour had to share the honors with Patrick, the point, whose end-to-end dashes were a feature”
“Frank Patrick put the work of his brother in the shade once or twice”
“At the top of his career the famous Lester Patrick never made two finer rushes than his brother, Frank, got in the second half”
“On Saturday night’s showing, Frank Patrick is one of the best men playing hockey”
“Ross and Patrick, playing much the same style of game shone in dashes down the ice, but Ross had a shade the better of it, as a defence player”
“The visiting [Victorias’] defence was not as strong as that of the Ottawas, although Patrick is easily one of the best men in the game to-day. His rushes down the ice and his checking were features of the match. He assisted the Vics in many of their scores”
“Through the maroon-jerseyed Vics, Phillips leading with the rubber, Ottawa swept dozens of times, only to be blocked by Patrick or Howard, generally Patrick. Then Patrick would return, corkscrewing his way to right and left”
“Frank Patrick, at point, was the headline performer, initiating many dazzling rushes. He plays much like his famous brother Lester, is fast, a beautiful stick-handler, speedy skater, and splendid shot”
“Patrick is playing one of the best defence games in the league today and time and again he was urged by the crowd to ‘go on yourself’. His rushes were effective and the goal he scored was the prettiest of the match. Time and again he carried the disc ice-length and several scores were resulted from his passes”
“Vics’ defence cleared more sharply, Patrick being the player responsible for this”
“Patrick shared with Bowie the honor of being the Vics star performer. His rushes, contrasting strongly in style with those of Art Ross, were just as spectacular and, last night more effective”
“Ross, Patrick and Taylor, of Ottawa, are the three best defence men in the hockey industry”
“Patrick, whose individual work has been one of the greatest features of Vics’ play all season seldom could break free, and only a few times in the hour made one of his famous end to end runs”
“Patrick, who was injured in the Shamrock-Victoria game, and who was reported as not going to play, was back in line alright, and put up a star game, his rushes being a feature of the match”
“Victorias played their hardest, but their defence was weak, Patrick not doing as well as usual”
“Patrick played a good ame, despite his injuries, but he was not nearly so brilliant as in the match against Ottawas here”
“The lame shoulder did not prevent Patrick from putting up an artistic line of hockey”
“Patrick, late of Westmount, made his appearance in a Victoria uniform, and played at right wing. Considering the importance of the contest, and the fact that he was playing a side position and not a centre one, such as he has been accustomed to, the suburbanite did exceedingly well. However, he was a trifle too anxious and made an effort to do more than his own share of the work”
“Patrick, another Westmount man on the VIctoria team, seemed not quite at home, but shows considerable promise”
“Patrick was an aid to the other two men as far as carrying the puck down the ice was concerned, but when it came to shooting he was not there with the goods”
“Patrick played his wing well, but finds the net difficult to locate”
1905- Frank Patrick plays two or three games for Montreal Westmount, this time at LW and maybe center.
“That was the principal weakness for the Patricks. They got made too easily, and with the double referee system, or rather the referee and umpire system, very little in the way of loss of temper, when exhibited, escapes the officials”
“Otherwise they [the Patricks] are magnificent players”
“The two Patricks and Ross did the most sensational work for Westmount, and the most telling”
1908- Frank Patrick returns to Senior level hockey, having spent the 1906 and 1907 seasons with McGill University. Patrick is now playing point, and is neck-and-neck with Art Ross for being the best at that position. He leads all points and covers in points (7+8=15, Cyclone Taylor (9+1=10) and Walter Smaill (6+4=10) tie for second in scoring among these positions, and Art Ross comes in fourth with 6+3=9). He was named to the second all star team created by a group of fans during the half-time of one of the games (Ross was on the first team at point)
“...had it not been for the good work by Robinson and Patrick on the Vic. defence, combined with erratic shooting by Shamrock forwards, the score would probably have been tied”
“Frank Patrick is the decided acquisition for Victoria; he played steller hockey in the first half, and in the second the general falling off in the team’s play kept him too busy at his own end of the rink for many of the dashes with which he enlivened the first. He is a fast and a clever stick handler, and with his weight is an ideal defence player under the new style”
“Frank Patrick did some very fine work, and is a find for the Vics, having improved considerably since last year”
“But in their work Bowie, Hall, Russel and Gilmour had to share the honors with Patrick, the point, whose end-to-end dashes were a feature”
“Frank Patrick put the work of his brother in the shade once or twice”
“At the top of his career the famous Lester Patrick never made two finer rushes than his brother, Frank, got in the second half”
“On Saturday night’s showing, Frank Patrick is one of the best men playing hockey”
“Ross and Patrick, playing much the same style of game shone in dashes down the ice, but Ross had a shade the better of it, as a defence player”
“The visiting [Victorias’] defence was not as strong as that of the Ottawas, although Patrick is easily one of the best men in the game to-day. His rushes down the ice and his checking were features of the match. He assisted the Vics in many of their scores”
“Through the maroon-jerseyed Vics, Phillips leading with the rubber, Ottawa swept dozens of times, only to be blocked by Patrick or Howard, generally Patrick. Then Patrick would return, corkscrewing his way to right and left”
“Frank Patrick, at point, was the headline performer, initiating many dazzling rushes. He plays much like his famous brother Lester, is fast, a beautiful stick-handler, speedy skater, and splendid shot”
“Patrick is playing one of the best defence games in the league today and time and again he was urged by the crowd to ‘go on yourself’. His rushes were effective and the goal he scored was the prettiest of the match. Time and again he carried the disc ice-length and several scores were resulted from his passes”
“Vics’ defence cleared more sharply, Patrick being the player responsible for this”
“Patrick shared with Bowie the honor of being the Vics star performer. His rushes, contrasting strongly in style with those of Art Ross, were just as spectacular and, last night more effective”
“Ross, Patrick and Taylor, of Ottawa, are the three best defence men in the hockey industry”
“Patrick, whose individual work has been one of the greatest features of Vics’ play all season seldom could break free, and only a few times in the hour made one of his famous end to end runs”
“Patrick, who was injured in the Shamrock-Victoria game, and who was reported as not going to play, was back in line alright, and put up a star game, his rushes being a feature of the match”
“Victorias played their hardest, but their defence was weak, Patrick not doing as well as usual”
“Patrick played a good ame, despite his injuries, but he was not nearly so brilliant as in the match against Ottawas here”
“The lame shoulder did not prevent Patrick from putting up an artistic line of hockey”
Haviland Routh
I honestly don’t know what to do about Haviland Routh; as far as I am aware, his career really only lasted for three seasons- 1893, 1894, and 1895 (Routh played a couple games in 1892, but I don’t have anything of note about his play. He also appears to have played 1 game in 1897, apparently playing well and registering an assist, but that is it for that season). However, he was easily the most productive player in these three seasons, finishing either first or second in scoring in each season, and his 1895 season was one of the most dominant of the seasons I went through (1887-1909), as he scored over 50% more than the second highest scorer (MacDougall) according to my reconstructed scoring tables.Scoring Tables (not counting the points that are disputed)
1893 (AHAC)
1894 (AHAC)
1895 (AHAC)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Haviland Routh | Montreal HC | 1 | 12 | 0 | 12 |
| 2 | Dolly Swift | Quebec HC | 1 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| 3 | Reginald Bradley | Ottawa HC | 1 | 10 | 1 | 11 |
| T-4 | William Murray | Crystals | 1 | 9 | 1 | 10 |
| T-4 | Archie Hodgson | Montreal HC | 2 | 5 | 5 | 10 |
1894 (AHAC)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Haviland Routh | Montreal HC | 1 | 8 | 4 | 12 |
| T-1 | Bert Russell | Ottawa HC | 1 | 8 | 4 | 12 |
| 3 | Dolly Swift | Quebec HC | 1 | 9 | 2 | 11 |
| 4 | Chauncey Kirby | Ottawa HC | 2 | 5 | 4 | 9 |
| 5 | Billy Barlow | Montreal HC | 2 | 6 | 1 | 7 |
1895 (AHAC)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Haviland Routh | Montreal HC | 1 | 15 | 1 | 16 |
| 2 | Bob MacDougall | Victorias | 1 | 10 | 1 | 11 |
| T-3 | Graham Drinkwater | Victorias | 2 | 8 | 2 | 10 |
| T-3 | Archie Hodgson | Montreal HC | 2 | 5 | 5 | 10 |
| 5 | Dolly Swift | Quebec HC | 1 | 8 | 1 | 9 |
Scoring Tables (counting disputed points; split points worth .5 (or .33) points, maybe points given full credit but not added to goals or assists)
1893 (AHAC)
1894 (AHAC)
1895 (AHAC)
| League Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Reginald Bradley | Ottawa HC | 1 | 12.17 | 1 | 13.17 |
| 2 | Haviland Routh | Montreal HC | 1 | 13 | 0 | 13 |
| 3 | Dolly Swift | Quebec HC | 1 | 11 | 0 | 11 |
| 4 | Archie Hodgson | Montreal HC | 2 | 6 | 5 | 11 |
| 5 | William Murray | Crystals | 1 | 9.5 | 1 | 10.5 |
1894 (AHAC)
| Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Bert Russell | Ottawa HC | 1 | 9.5 | 4 | 13.5 |
| 2 | Haviland Routh | Montreal HC | 1 | 8.5 | 4 | 12.5 |
| 3 | Dolly Swift | Quebec HC | 1 | 10 | 2 | 12 |
| 4 | Chauncey Kirby | Ottawa HC | 2 | 6.83 | 4 | 10.83 |
| 5 | Billy Barlow | Montreal HC | 2 | 7 | 1 | 8 |
1895 (AHAC)
| Rank | Name | Team | Team Rank | Goals | Assists | Points |
| 1 | Haviland Routh | Montreal HC | 1 | 17.5 | 1 | 18.5 |
| 2 | Bob MacDougall | Victorias | 1 | 11 | 1 | 12 |
| 3 | Graham Drinkwater | Victorias | 2 | 9.5 | 2 | 11.5 |
| T-4 | Dolly Swift | Quebec HC | 1 | 9 | 1 | 11 |
| T-4 | Norman Rankin | Victorias | 3 | 9 | 2 | 11 |
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Can we consider extending the voting period a bit as we add more players?
On the face of it, I like this idea; more players, more time for discussion. On the flip side, the last couple weeks haven't seen much debate, and I worry that we'd just see more dead time with longer voting periods.
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