Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 7

[nabby12]

Just to confirm, lists are due next Sunday?

Correct.

 

[seventieslord]

Just to confirm, lists are due next Sunday?

Yes, that's right.

After years of doing this, I'm still not sure who I prefer between Joe Hall, Art Duncan and Joe Simpson. I think I have Duncan last though.

Joe Hall has an appealing profile, in that he was a great leader, a very tough and feared player, and as he got older, his violence was calculating, and he was on high watch from the referees. Plus, he ended up as the oldest player in hockey, usually a sign of having great talent. He was still the #1 D on those Canadiens teams at the end of his career when he died from the Influenza epidemic in the 1919 Stanley Cup finals.

Art Duncan, I don't know as well, but he was a top superstar in the 1923 Stanley Cup finals. But that was on the verge of his absolute peak season, which is kind of an oasis in his career.

Joe Simpson's peak was higher and more credible among this group, but he collapsed out east. Still, getting difficult to ignore at this point. I'm tempted to rank him #1 in this group based on his peak. But something about Joe Hall is so appealing...

And what are your thoughts on where to put Gardiner relative to them?

I have Hall, Gardiner and Simpson in my 4-11 bunch right now, but I'm still struggling with exactly where to put them.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yes, that's right.


And what are your thoughts on where to put Gardiner relative to them?

I have Hall, Gardiner and Simpson in my 4-11 bunch right now, but I'm still struggling with exactly where to put them.

Gut feeling:

1. Joe Simpson (peak/prime too high to ignore)
2. Joe Hall (longevity, reputation as a bad man while being a great leader, cups)
3. Herb Gardiner (deeper track record than Duncan, Hart is still somewhat suspicious)
4. Art Duncan (great peak, but VERY short)

Then again, you guys know my bias in favor of having a pugilist/violent man on the defense among your team. Adds a whole new dimension to your team's possibilities.

 

[BenchBrawl]

As far as Weldy Young vs. the four defensemen discussed, I have him at #1. Era consideration, mostly. Otherwise, he had higher star power than all of them except Joe Simpson, and his relative longevity is great too.

My only regret is Jack Campbell not being available. He seems like the perfect candidate for a duel against Joe Simpson.

 

[kaiser matias]

Neither player did anything for their legacy after 1899- Weldy Young went west for non-hockey reasons (though he played hockey out there), while Mike Grant spent another few years in the CAHL, not really doing anything of note. 1900 saw the rise of Hod Stuart (although he played some forward early on), Dick Boon, and Frank Wall battling for the title of dominant coverpoint in the CAHL.

It's worth noting that Young ended up in the Yukon at some point, and was part of the Dawson City Nuggets challenge. While he ended up missing the games (not that his presence would have likely made a difference in the outcome), I believe the fact that he was associated with the team gave their challenge credibility, and was a major factor in why the trustees and Ottawa accepted it in the first place. I recall the recent book on the Dawson City team touches on this and cites newspaper articles in the leadup to the series.

 

[seventieslord]

Is it even possible to attempt to reconstruct "norris finishes" for Hall and Duncan so we at least have one objective way to compare them to Gardiner and Simpson?

I mean the act of even putting them together is subjective, especially with Hall, who never played in a league where his greatness was ever validated with award voting. At least Duncan had some time in the west and we're probably safe to assume his time in the NHL (at age 35+) would earn him no votes.

 

[seventieslord]

I'll try with Duncan.

First of all, according to this, All-star team selected by NHL coaches (1927 to 1941) , his recognition in the NHL wasn't completely NIL, I think this reads as a really weak 9th in 1927-28.

Duncan was 2nd team in the PCHA in 1918-19, 1st team in 19-20, 1st in 21-22, 2nd in 22-23, and 1st in 23-24. That's five relevant seasons to go along with his weak 9th in the NHL.

In 18-19, with Cleghorn, Boucher, Hall, Cameron and Gerard playing in the NHL it's likely that a 2nd team in the PCHA is weaker than the same in the NHL. Conservatively, this is an 8th.

In 19-20, with Hall deceased, four of the big five were still active in the NHL, which was likely marginally better, but the gap on defense was probably larger than at other positions. 4th?

In 21-22, this was the first year of the WCHL, who did have some good star power on their 1st team. I'm thinking three NHL defensemen beat him, and Simpson, but he's tops in the PCHA, for a final ranking of 5th.

In 22-23, he was likely 3rd in his own league, behind the NHL's big 4, and behind the WCHL's 1st team (which apparently had three guys on D?) Calling this 10th.

In 23-24 as the PCHA's scoring leader, safe to say he takes top honours. the WCHL's top AST is not that fearsome. In the NHL, Gerard is gone, but Clancy is emerging. Cameron's out west scoring points but not getting votes. Cleghorn is a hart runner-up. Call this a 2nd.



So I'm conservatively giving Duncan a norris voting record of 2-4-5-8-9-10, to go with Gardiner's 1-4-4-6-8 and Simpson's 2-4-4-10.

Simpson seems to be the weak link here, but he had that nebulous quality, star power, that the others didn't match. And their voting records aren't really THAT much better. Eliminate the numbers that are "more or less the same" and you have Gardiner with an extra 6th and Duncan with an extra 8th and 9th.

Hall, I think, was usually the 3rd-5th best defenseman in the east at any given time, which probably gives him a fairly long string of 5th-9th place overall finishes, for as many as 8 NHA/NHL seasons (probably not the two before that). And of course, he's older than all these guys and was already 28 in the NHL's inagural season! There are five more seasons before that in good leagues, but parsing that all out gets trickier, plus, he may not have always been a defenseman at that time. Ignoring those years, he might be 5-5-6-6-7-7-8-9, all achieved during his 30s.

Or am I off base?

 

[BenchBrawl]

A few points I can comment on:

In 1922, all of Boucher, Cleghorn, Cameron and Gerard had great years. It's possible that all of them had Duncan beat, but difficult to know for sure. This was a season where all the NHL defensemen had their prime intersecting, so competition was fierce. Boucher, Cleghorn and Cameron scored a lot of points, and this was the year Gerard replaced Cameron in the playoffs for Toronto and people complained because Gerard was too good. Then add in Joe Simpson. So 5th or 6th for Duncan seems reasonable.

In 1923, while I know nothing about Duncan's RS, by the playoffs he seemed like a real top player, better than Gerard and Boucher, at least in their series. So 10th might be accurate for his RS but doesn't do justice to the player I've red about in the 1923 playoffs. Clancy also blossomed in the 1923 playoffs, and became more important for Ottawa.

In 1924 though, it was George Boucher who was the top defenseman on Ottawa, not Clancy. Clancy blew up in the 1923 playoffs but took some time to stabilize as the #1D for Ottawa. He certainly was by 1927. But in 1924, it was Boucher, who also scored a lot of points and was a legit Norris contender. So Cleghorn, Duncan and Boucher all were on top that year. So 2nd or 3rd for Duncan/Boucher, giving the Hart cred to Cleghorn for 1st.

Also, in 1924, on memory I'm pretty sure Harry Cameron, once he left the NHL, played forward out west, and never played defenseman again. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jigglysquishy]

From the voting thread, @jigglysquishy wondered about the Jack Walker #1 vote. That was from me. I guess I missed how much of an outlier it was to have had him voted highly the round prior to that, as I would've posted more on him last round. Not at home right now but I'll just put in a few words here.

There's so much to like about Jack Walker, but most of it doesn't show up in the numbers. He's like the opposite of somebody like Bernie Morris or especially Tommy Dunderdale, whose cases are built almost solely on numbers. But Walker was probably the second best defensive forward/rover beside Nighbor of the era, and much like the Pembroke Peach, success followed Walker around no matter where he played. Part of his lower totals are because he played rover for most of his time out west, which was a defensive position for many teams of the day. And during the brief period where he was a forward during his prime, in Toronto, he was voted the best player on the team that won the Cup. My hunch is that if he'd played wing his whole career, he would've scored much more and thus had a much more attractive resume.

That's like the briefest of brief cases for him. With an extra week of discussion I might see if I can do some more on him.

As it stands for me

A. Smith/Bain/Young
Simpson/Moran
Walker
About 6 guys

Walker keeps coming up.

His offense isn't great. There's no other way to put it. He's last amongst eligible forwards this round. But is he not the clear cut best defensive forward left? On the 1918-1924 Seattle teams, he's got to be second best skater. Foyston went at 24, Walker at ~35-38 seems about right.

Nighbor gives some strong praise to Walker in this 1960 Ottawa Journal Interview

"I copied Jack Walker. The man that first gave me the idea to try the poke check was Jack Walker of the Port Arthur club. Walker was a good play, I was subbing as a kid of about 18, and he really had a good poke check. I used to watch him doing this poke checking and I decided to take it and see what I could do with it."... "If there is any credit coming to the man I copied on the poke check, I want to make it clear that goes to Walker."

From 1911 Ottawa Citizen

Johnny Walker, the rover, a Port Arthur boy, in his 21st year, was by a wide margin the finest of the visitors. Walker has speed to burn, handles his stick neatly and check with the sure sign every time. He never fagged and was up and back with almost every rush of the night.

Trail of the Stanley Cup Vol 1:

This fine player is best remembered for his uncanny skill as a hook check artist and in this respect he was rival of Frank Nighbor.

In the Stanley Cup series that followed with Canadiens, the famed line of Morenz, Joliat and Boucher found Walker and his hookcheck the stumbling block. The veteran broke up their attacks time after time and scored four goals in the series and the Cougars won the Cup.

This small clean-playing but aggressive player was on seven championship teams, in as many Cup series and three Stanley Cup winners.

Ultimate Hockey

The Tens
Best Defensive Forward
Jack Walker was for many years the best defensive forward in the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, perhaps in all of hockey.
Best Shadow
Jack Walker shut down many a top gun with his jabbing poke-checks and sweeping hooks. Lalonde, Pitre, Morenz, Joliat... the "Old Fox" had their numbers.

Walker joined the Victoria Cougars for 1924-25 and figured in yet another Cup win, scoring four goals and two assists in four contests against the Montreal Canadiens. In that series, he shut down superstar Howie Morenz.

During his playing days and later as a coach, Walker spent hours helping the rookies, teaching them the art of the hook-check. Walker was as good at poke-checking as Frank Nighbor was.

I get the impression he's the clear cut number 2 (to Nighbor) defensive forward. I don't think he goes this round, but he should be ranked this round.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes, I think the evidence is strong that he's the 2nd best defensive forward of this entire era (covering 40+ years).

I'm in the middle of Empire on Ice, and some of the in-game descriptions of Walker's defensive play are reminiscent of what is written about Nighbor at his best. As in, it is comical how someone can so easily turn back the opposition repeatedly, and strip the puck from them.

 

[seventieslord]

It's been a double-length week, so try to get your votes in nice and early so that we can start next week on time.

 

[seventieslord]

n/m

 

[jigglysquishy]

Voting is open then?

 

[rmartin65]

Voting is open then?

Voting is indeed open- please try to get votes in well before 9:00 PM EST, as we are trying to get back onto a good rhythm (being able to start the new round on Monday mornings).

 

[rmartin65]

Please get your ballots for this round in before 9:00 PM EST so we can start next week Monday morning.

I believe we are waiting on 4 ballots at the moment (plus the 2 who have not been voting consistently).

 

[seventieslord]

Please get your ballots for this round in before 9:00 PM EST so we can start next week Monday morning.

I believe we are waiting on 4 ballots at the moment (plus the 2 who have not been voting consistently).

@TheDevilMadeMe @tarheelhockey @ResilientBeast @BenchBrawl @Johnny Engine

 

[BenchBrawl]

Voted.

Increasingly becoming a crapshoot for me.

Bumped up Joe Hall from last round after "rediscovering" him. Weldy Young was my #1.