Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 7

[seventieslord]

If you put it favourably, it looks like Roberts has six of the 13 best seasons posted by either player (and neither of the top two).

Less favorably, he also has just six of the best 17 seasons posted by either of them.

My way of doing it mirrors your results fairly closely:

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1920[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

22​

[/TD]

[TD]

26​

[/TD]

[TD]

7​

[/TD]

[TD]

33​

[/TD]

[TD]103[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1913[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

15​

[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]

5​

[/TD]

[TD]

29​

[/TD]

[TD]100[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1917[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

23​

[/TD]

[TD]

43​

[/TD]

[TD]

10​

[/TD]

[TD]

53​

[/TD]

[TD]98[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1914[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

20​

[/TD]

[TD]

31​

[/TD]

[TD]

13​

[/TD]

[TD]

44​

[/TD]

[TD]98[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1915[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

19​

[/TD]

[TD]

29​

[/TD]

[TD]

5​

[/TD]

[TD]

34​

[/TD]

[TD]85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1914[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

16​

[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]

[TD]

28​

[/TD]

[TD]80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1912[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

16​

[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]

0​

[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1916[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

21​

[/TD]

[TD]

18​

[/TD]

[TD]

7​

[/TD]

[TD]

25​

[/TD]

[TD]68[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1918[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

18​

[/TD]

[TD]

20​

[/TD]

[TD]

3​

[/TD]

[TD]

23​

[/TD]

[TD]66[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1922[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]

13​

[/TD]

[TD]

6​

[/TD]

[TD]

19​

[/TD]

[TD]61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1915[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]

10​

[/TD]

[TD]

27​

[/TD]

[TD]60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA/CHA[/TD]
[TD]1910[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Montreal Shamrocks[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

15​

[/TD]

[TD]

21​

[/TD]

[TD]

0​

[/TD]

[TD]

21​

[/TD]

[TD]60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1920[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

22​

[/TD]

[TD]

16​

[/TD]

[TD]

3​

[/TD]

[TD]

19​

[/TD]

[TD]59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1921[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]

9​

[/TD]

[TD]

11​

[/TD]

[TD]

20​

[/TD]

[TD]59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1918[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Portland Rosebuds[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

18​

[/TD]

[TD]

14​

[/TD]

[TD]

6​

[/TD]

[TD]

20​

[/TD]

[TD]57[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1912[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

18​

[/TD]

[TD]

16​

[/TD]

[TD]

1​

[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]53[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1916[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Portland Rosebuds[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

18​

[/TD]

[TD]

14​

[/TD]

[TD]

3​

[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1917[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Portland Rosebuds[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]

22​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]

[TD]

26​

[/TD]

[TD]48[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA/CHA[/TD]
[TD]1910[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

10​

[/TD]

[TD]

16​

[/TD]

[TD]

0​

[/TD]

[TD]

16​

[/TD]

[TD]46[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1913[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

16​

[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]

19​

[/TD]

[TD]40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1911[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Quebec Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

9​

[/TD]

[TD]

13​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]

15​

[/TD]

[TD]38[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1919[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

20​

[/TD]

[TD]

5​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]

[TD]

9​

[/TD]

[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]WCHL[/TD]
[TD]1924[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Saskatoon Crescents[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]

1​

[/TD]

[TD]

3​

[/TD]

[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1923[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Victoria Cougars[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]

[TD]

27​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]

0​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1911[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]

[TD]

1​

[/TD]

[TD]

0​

[/TD]

[TD]

1​

[/TD]

[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I think I had the inverse reaction to looking at their results. When we talked more about Dunderdale 2 rounds (?) ago I came away deeply unimpressed by the chasm of results between 1913 & 1920. Outside of those years he looks deeply unimpressive as a candidate

I see that his best years were 1913 and 1920, and everything in between was relatively meh. While Roberts' best 4, and best 5 years, came in consecutive spans. Still, just like Dunderdale has a huge dropoff from 2nd best to 3rd best, Roberts' drop from 3rd to 4th best is just as much.

They are essentially equal in best 5-6 seasons. The dropoff that concerns me is Roberts' lack of anything beyond a 9th-best season. Dunderdale did the same in his 12th-best season (in just 9 games of a 16-game schedule, it should be said) and had three seasons as somewhat of a contributor beyond it as well.

So I think we're talking about different things here. I don't think it's hard at all to conclude that Dunderdale had a lot more meat on the bone when full prime and full career are looked at. I'm baffled by the idea that one would come to the inverse conclusion looking at these stats. If you're saying Roberts achieved his feats consecutively, sure, I guess, but does that matter much?

 

[ResilientBeast]

The two seasons Dunderdale led the PCHA in scoring are not particularly deep seasons for the league as well

Below are the top 10 in scoring in their respective leagues in the years of note.

Dunderdale

1913
F.Patrick, Kendall, Harris, L.Patrick, Taylor, J.McDonald, Rowe, R.McDonald, Tobin & Oatman

1920
Foyston, Oatman, Harris, Roberts, Skinner, Riley, Tobin, Cook & Adams

Roberts (yeesh I need to sleep more)

1914
Smith, Roberts, Hyland, Davidson, Walker, J.McDonald, Darragh, Malone, Smith & Lalonde

1915
Smith, Pitre, Roberts, Cleghorn, Hyland, Broadbent, Wilson, Cleghorn, Crawford, Ronan

1916
Pitre, Malone, Lalonde, Keats, Denneny, Roberts, Nighbor, Denneny, Crawford, Cleghorn

1917
Morris, Roberts, Foyston, Stanley, Irvin, MacKay, Kerr, Harris, Taylor, Dunderdale


That 1913 & 1920 field for the PCHA don't look particularly strong

I see that his best years were 1913 and 1920, and everything in between was relatively meh. While Roberts' best 4, and best 5 years, came in consecutive spans.

So I think we're talking about different things here. I don't think it's hard at all to conclude that Dunderdale had a lot more meat on the bone when full prime and full career are looked at. If you're saying Roberts achieved his feats consecutively, sure, I guess, but does that matter much?

He has more meet on the bones when talking about a full career because he hung around forever. But what was Dunderdale really at his peak? And when was his peak? Robert's is pretty clearly defined and he was clearly an Art Ross contender in a consolidated league as he managed to nearly lead both leagues in scoring.

Dunderdale also retired at 36 while Roberts retired at 28 to continue his medical career not because he was done as effective contributor.

 

[ResilientBeast]

While typing up that post I was thinking about it.

Lalonde is the only player to league both the PCHA and NHA/NHL in scoring right?

Roberts and Hyland get really really close but never quite do it.

 

[seventieslord]

The two seasons Dunderdale led the PCHA in scoring are not particularly deep seasons for the league as well

that's exactly why my system gives him a score of "only" 100 in 1913 while the NHA leader that year gets 100+, even though Dunderdale outscored #2 in his league by 45%.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I mean, we're already 30 players in, and there's still a guy left who was deemed, at least for one season, the most valuable player in hockey. Not just in one small league, but in THE league. And we can explain that away to some extent by saying that voting for that trophy was really favorable to defensemen at the time, and that's true, but who else is left that was potential League MVP caliber? What about best at their position at least? There are a handful of those at least. How long did they maintain that? Gardiner wasn't just a flash in the pan either, if I'm not mistaken he backed up that hart trophy with a few other seasons where he earned recognition in the GM all-star voting, and was a wchl All-Star a couple times. (Wasn't he?)

Simpson had much better star power and name recognition in the wchl, but he has nothing for offensive numbers in the NHL, and that's supposed to be what he was known for, and his award recognition at the NHL level was basically NIL.

From TDMM's bio from 2014. Looks a bit more impressive than at first glance. I like Gardiner as the next western defenseman after reading though @nabby12 's post and the bio

Translating Herb Gardiner's record into something of a modern Norris record.

1927 is easy - he won the Hart in a consolidated NHL. Defensemen were much more likely to get Hart consideration back then, so it's not the same as a modern Hart, but I think it should count like a modern Norris. Call it a 1st.

1928 - 2nd Team All Star in the consolidated NHL. Be conservative and call it a 4th.

1925 - 1st Team All Star in a WCHL that was 1 of 2 leagues. I'll call it a 4th since the WCHL's defensemen were weaker than the NHL's. Perhaps this is a little high, but given how conservative I am about other years, I think it's fair.

1923 - 1st Team All Star in a WCHL that was 1 of 3 leagues. Pretend the NHL has 1/2 the talent and the PCHA and WCHL have 1/4 each. Call it an 8th place finish, which is extremely conservative, considering, in theory, he could have been anywhere between 1 and 8 (but I do think closer to 8 is more likely).

1921 - MVP of the Big-4, a Big-4 containing several ATD-worthy players and HHOFers probably in their primes? I don't think it's giving him too much credit to count it as a 6th place finish among all defensemen in the world. The Big-4 was a weak league, but it did have some really good players in it.

 

[seventieslord]

1-4-4-6-8 (based on very conservative assumptions) is very good.

Now what about Simpson?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Our two PCHA defensemen, I don't think anyone is seriously considering at this point but I should at least say something about them before I accidently have to disappear again.

Frank Patrick, probably as good as Lester but focused his energy on running the PCHA instead of starring in it. He only played more than half his team's games 6 times which for the professional era is pretty bad longevity.

His best feats are probably 1912 & 1913 where he scored 85% of a Lalonde and led the Millionaires in scoring. His case for this project is going to depend heavily on the anecdotal opinions we have on him where he rates highly by observers

	Season	Team	Name	Position	GP	G	A	P	PIM	OC %	GP	Vs1	VsT
CAHL	1903-1904	Montreal Victorias	Frank Patrick	Defense	5	4	1	5	0	6%	63%	17%	17%
CAHL	1904-1905	Montreal Westmount	Frank Patrick	Defense	2	4	0	4	0	7%	20%	15%	31%
NHA	1909-1910	Renfrew Creamery Kings	Frank Patrick	Defense	11	8	0	8	23	8%	92%	25%	35%
PCHA	1911-1912	Vancouver Millionaires	Frank Patrick	P	15	23	0	23	0	23%	100%	85%	85%
PCHA	1912-1913	Vancouver Millionaires	Frank Patrick	P	14	12	8	20	17	19%	100%	69%	100%
PCHA	1913-1914	Vancouver Millionaires	Frank Patrick	Defense	16	11	9	20	3	15%	100%	51%	51%
PCHA	1914-1915	Vancouver Millionaires	Frank Patrick	Defense	4	2	2	4	6	2%	24%	9%	9%
PCHA	1915-1916	Vancouver Millionaires	Frank Patrick	Defense	8	3	1	4	3	3%	44%	11%	11%
PCHA	1916-1917	Vancouver Millionaires	Frank Patrick	Defense	23	13	13	26	30	12%	100%	48%	49%
PCHA	1917-1918	Vancouver Millionaires	Frank Patrick	Defense	1	1	0	1	0	1%	6%	2%	2%
PCHA	1922-1923	Vancouver Maroons	Frank Patrick	Defense	2	0	1	1	0	1%	7%	2%	3%
PCHA	1923-1924	Vancouver Maroons	Frank Patrick	Defense	4	0	1	1	0	1%	13%	3%	3%

Frank does not want to play but he is going out after the championship and Vancouver fans are hoping that he takes his place in front of Hugh Lehman for when in condition, Patrick is one of the most effective defence players in the game and is also one of the most efficient stickhandlers in the country.

There is talk of Frank Patrick succeeding Lester on the Wanderer defence but at the cover point position. Frank has developed into a dashing player much of the style of Art Ross.

Possibly there is something in his contention (that 6 man hockey ruins combination plays), but the players with the speed and stick-handling abilities of Ernie Johnson, "Cyclone" Taylor, Frank Patrick, Tommy Dunderdale, etc. do not require a half-acre sheer of ice in order to evade a body check. - Saskatoon Phoenix, Apr. 3, 1913

The retirement of (Frank) Patrick from the game means the passing of one of the greatest, if not the greatest, player who ever handled a puck in Canadian hockey. ... As a defence player there are few better than Patrick. A wonderful stickhandler, fast on his skates and possessing wonderful judgment, he has played brilliantly during the many years of services with the various teams. ... Patrick and Griffis proved the most formidable pair of defence players in the Coast League since the inception of the game in these parts. Patrick has not only proved himself one of the most wonderful puck chasers of the last decade, but he has clearly won honor as one of the best leaders in the history of the game. - Calgary Daily Herald, Dec. 10, 1917

 

[ResilientBeast]

Art Duncan, reminder that while he "led the PCHA in 1924" they played an interlocking schedule with the WCHL and was 5th if you combined the tables (value in brackets is combined Vs1).

His scoring for a "rushing offensive D" is pretty poor outside of that one big season, Lloyd Cook strikes me as the stronger member of that pairing together. And they both have less outright star power at least out west when compared with Patrick and even Griffis depending on how charitable you are.

	Season	Team	Teams GP	Name	Position	GP	G	A	P	PIM	OC %	GP	Vs1	VsT
PCHA	1915-1916	Vancouver Millionaires	18	Art Duncan	Defense	17	7	4	11	25	10%	94%​	31%​	31%​
NHA	1916-1917	Toronto 228th Battalion	14	Art Duncan	Defense	6	4	1	5	12	6%	43%​	10%​	23%​
PCHA	1918-1919	Vancouver Millionaires	20	Art Duncan	Defense	18	2	1	3	0	3%	90%​	8%​	8%​
PCHA	1919-1920	Vancouver Millionaires	22	Art Duncan	Defense	18	4	8	12	0	11%	82%​	36%​	50%​
PCHA	1920-1921	Vancouver Millionaires	24	Art Duncan	Defense	24	3	5	8	6	6%	100%​	25%​	25%​
PCHA	1921-1922	Vancouver Millionaires	24	Art Duncan	Defense	24	5	9	14	25	12%	100%​	47%​	47%​
PCHA	1922-1923	Vancouver Maroons	30	Art Duncan	Defense	26	15	6	21	8	12%	87%​	38%​	53%​
PCHA	1923-1924	Vancouver Maroons	30	Art Duncan	Defense	30	21	10	31	20	26%	100%​	(78%)100%​	100%​
WCHL	1924-1925	Vancouver Maroons	28	Art Duncan	Defense	26	5	5	10	28	8%	93%​	30%​	30%​
WHL	1925-1926	Calgary Tigers	30	Art Duncan	Defense	29	9	4	13	30	13%	97%​	30%​	52%​

 

[ResilientBeast]

1-4-4-6-8 (based on very conservative assumptions) is very good.

Now what about Simpson?

Best guessing this in a similar way to TDMM

The finishes we know about
- WCHL 1st All-Star Team (1922, 1923, 1925)
- WCHL 2nd All-Star Team (1924)

All teams in 1922 played 24/25 games and he finished one point behind Cameron in a weaker league. He obliterates every other WCHL defender in scoring. WCHL is not playing an interlocking schedule at this point.

My best guess would be 4th at worst. Cleghorn, Cameron and Boucher all had very strong seasons.

1923

He appears to have been better than his western competition, Lloyd Cook and Art Duncan.
Calgary Herald, March 21, 1923

Joe Simpson, reputed to be one of the greatest hockey stars in the game today, is better than either Duncan or Cook, but he hasn't a mate that completes a pair equal in strength to the Vancouver couple.

The Edmonton Bulletin

Simpson the King of All Defence Players Anywhere

Joe Simpson is the king of all defence players that we have see in these two leagues and we jump to the conclusion - of any league. And that too when he does not posses the avoirdupois that naturally belongs to the position of a defence player. But he more than makes up for the lack of weight in quickness on his skates and uncanny skill in using his stick. On the defence end alone of his position he ranks above them all. His tactics are remarkable. If he fails to hook the puck away from an opposition plaguing with his stick, at which he is an adept he plunges low into the legs of his opponent like a rugby player making a tackle and invariably stops the man. he is such a quick starter that opponents can not stick handle around him. Joe is able to stay right with them until he brings them down or steals the puck away from them. But it is on the attack that Simpson shines the brightest. His rushes down the ice with the puck are the most spectacular and most effective in the business...

He just barely gets outscored by Cook in the PCHA by a single point but the contemporary praise is overwhelming especially given his performance in the cup finals. Boucher is equally excellent out east. So maybe 2nd?

1924 is a meh year for him doesn't add much to his resume.

1925 probably same as 70s for Gardiner? 4th? Scoring wise among D this is a strong season

I'm probably being overly harsh here but that would give him

2nd, 4th, 4th?

I don't usually grade stuff out like this, so I could be way off.

 

[rmartin65]

I mean, we're already 30 players in, and there's still a guy left who was deemed, at least for one season, the most valuable player in hockey. Not just in one small league, but in THE league. And we can explain that away to some extent by saying that voting for that trophy was really favorable to defensemen at the time, and that's true, but who else is left that was potential League MVP caliber? What about best at their position at least? There are a handful of those at least. How long did they maintain that? Gardiner wasn't just a flash in the pan either, if I'm not mistaken he backed up that hart trophy with a few other seasons where he earned recognition in the GM all-star voting, and was a wchl All-Star a couple times. (Wasn't he?)

Simpson had much better star power and name recognition in the wchl, but he has nothing for offensive numbers in the NHL, and that's supposed to be what he was known for, and his award recognition at the NHL level was basically NIL.

I'm very skeptical about that Hart win- I mean, it definitely happened, but it seems very much like a narrative-driven win, right? He played (just about) every minute of the season for a team- and that's pretty much it as far as praise goes, unless I'm missing something. He was no doubt a very good player, but I just don't know if I'm ready to vote for him just yet.

Taylor Hall wouldn't be particularly high in a top-60 post-lockout players list, despite his Hart win. I'm applying the same principle here, unless I'm missing something.

I'm just really, really impressed with Alf Smith. Is there a single thing NOT to like about him?

Star power. Peak. Longevity. He's older so one would use his generation as a question mark but he played right into the next couple of generations and excelled. Goal scoring. Playmaking. Defense. Physicality. Leadership. Winning. Played in a lot of very big games. Offensive numbers look decent enough for this round before you consider that he had a higher proportion of assists, and missed essentially 7 opportunities to compile numbers from age 24-30.

How's he not #1 this round?

Right up front, I want to be clear- I'm voting Alf Smith very high this round. This is more of a devil's advocate argument more than anything.

The hesitation with Smith, for me, at least, is that his peak was so short. He's mentioned as "the finest forward in Canada” and "the greatest of hockeyeists" in 1896 and has a strong 1897 (though I think it is maybe overrated, based on the information I have- I'll return to this in a bit), but that is probably it for his time as the top guy. He misses some years, then is definitely not the top dog in Ottawa when he re-joins the team- that is Frank McGee's team through the 1906 season. I guess he was "the guy" in 1907, but then 1908 is Phillips' show. For most of his career (post return to the Eastern leagues) Smith was more in competition with Harvey Pulford for the second-most important guy on those teams. And in 1908 you have to look at Taylor and Walsh as potentially being more important (though, personally, I don't know if I'd go that far).

Additionally, while Smith was a very good all-around player upon his return to the Eastern leagues, he was not written about so kindly beforehand; there are several unflattering quotes in the 1890s, such as-

"He was often shy of following into the corners, and did not come back after his man like the rest of the Ottawa forwards”

“On the Ottawa side, Smith was the weak spot. He had not been very well, which partly accounts for his failure. He did not follow up on his side at all, and when the puck was down about the Vic goal he was often laying off half way up the ice waiting for it to come out”

“Smith mostly played his old brilliant game, although hanging back from the corners as usual”

He wasn't the choice at RW in the 1905 fan-poll (Billy Gilmour). He wasn't on the unknown "Montreal Man"'s 1905 list either (Gilmour again). He was on a 1907 team, and on one of the 1908 team's, however, but not listed on 2 other 1908 teams (Gilmour again was on the first team, Blachford was on the second team).

Again- I'm voting for him very highly, but there are some things that keep me from having him at 1 on my list (for now, at least).

When I picked Russell in the ATD @rmartin65 in PM opined that Walsh was a better transitional star between Bowie-Taylor than Russell. I'm really curious if you could expand more (and if I missed it just say so and I'll hunt it down). Russell has more high level seasons at the top level of hockey despite only being one year older than Walsh.

Walsh led his league in scoring twice to Russell's once but Russell was tantalizingly close in 1907.

They both won multiple cups on dynasties in the early 1900s

Russell shouldered much more of the offensive load for the Wanderers than Walsh did for the Senators as shown below in the table sorted by OC% (reminder this is is Points/Team Goals For)

Is it an "eye test" from the newspaper scans?

Thanks for listing out their seasons like you did- I find that sort of thing very helpful. For me, I think Walsh was more impressive, as you said, based on the 'eye test' from the scans. Russell struggling against Smith so badly that he was benched- despite being the top scorer on the Wanderer team- for Cecil Blachford (who I don't think anybody had on their lists) weighs heavily for me. His own team thought they were better off without him for the most important game of the season. And then he is replaced by Bruce Stuart in another game (I believe against the Toronto Pros for the Cup), and his team is successful there also. How good could he really have been if he was that replaceable?

Russell just never really distinguishes himself from his teammates outside of just scoring. And, as I mentioned, the Wanderers didn't seem to have any problems scoring and winning without him.

I'll try to put together something a little more in depth later on.

Table for Alf Smith. that 1897 is incredibly impressive. Scoring nearly half of his teams goals.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[TD]VsT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1894-1895[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]20%[/TD]
[TD]26%[/TD]
[TD]50%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1895-1896[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]32%[/TD]
[TD]41%[/TD]
[TD]88%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1896-1897[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]48%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1903-1904[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]22%[/TD]
[TD]27%[/TD]
[TD]62%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1904-1905[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]22%[/TD]
[TD]76%[/TD]
[TD]76%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1905-1906[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]21%[/TD]
[TD]70%[/TD]
[TD]72%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1906-1907[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]27%[/TD]
[TD]55%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1907-1908[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Alf Smith[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]16%[/TD]
[TD]53%[/TD]
[TD]53%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So, I know there is some skepticism surrounding my reconstructed scoring tables, but I trust them; I have the scans to prove who I've listed as scoring and/or assisting on goals. I don't have Smith with 12 goals, I have him with 8 (with an assist) and 5th overall in points (behind McKerrow, McDougall, Barlow, and McLea). Of the 25 goals Ottawa scored, I have A. Smith with 8, Westwick with 5, Spittal with 4, Living with 1, M. Smith with 1, then some split goals; A. Smith or M. Smith scored another 3, A. Smith, M. Smith, or Westwick scored 1, A. Smith or Westwick scored 1, and I have 1 UNK goal.

Alf Smith could have scored anywhere from 8 goals to 14 goals that season, but we don't know for sure exactly how many, as there are conflicting reports.

On the flip side, Alf Smith's ECAHA years look a lot better than what you have. I have him with 24 points in 1906 (good for 4th in the league (Bowie led with 35) and 2nd on his team (behind H. Smith with 30), 31 points (good for third in the league (Bowie led with 48) and first on his team) in 1907, and 24 points (good for 5th in the league (Phillips with 34) and 3rd on his team (behind Phillips and Walsh) in 1908. He was the premier set-up man of the ECAHA over that time period.

 

[rmartin65]

Our two PCHA defensemen, I don't think anyone is seriously considering at this point but I should at least say something about them before I accidently have to disappear again.

Frank Patrick, probably as good as Lester but focused his energy on running the PCHA instead of starring in it. He only played more than half his team's games 6 times which for the professional era is pretty bad longevity.

His best feats are probably 1912 & 1913 where he scored 85% of a Lalonde and led the Millionaires in scoring. His case for this project is going to depend heavily on the anecdotal opinions we have on him where he rates highly by observers

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[TD]VsT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CAHL[/TD]
[TD]1903-1904[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Victorias[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]6%[/TD]
[TD]63%[/TD]
[TD]17%[/TD]
[TD]17%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CAHL[/TD]
[TD]1904-1905[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Westmount[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]7%[/TD]
[TD]20%[/TD]
[TD]15%[/TD]
[TD]31%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Renfrew Creamery Kings[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]8%[/TD]
[TD]92%[/TD]
[TD]25%[/TD]
[TD]35%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]23%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[TD]85%[/TD]
[TD]85%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1912-1913[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]19%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[TD]69%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]15%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[TD]51%[/TD]
[TD]51%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]24%[/TD]
[TD]9%[/TD]
[TD]9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1915-1916[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]44%[/TD]
[TD]11%[/TD]
[TD]11%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]12%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[TD]48%[/TD]
[TD]49%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1917-1918[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]6%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1922-1923[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]7%[/TD]
[TD]2%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1923-1924[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Frank Patrick[/TD]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1%[/TD]
[TD]13%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Frank Patrick also had a very impressive season for the Montreal Victorias is 1908, leading all points and coverpoints in scoring with 7 goals, 8 assists, and 15 total points. The next highest guys (who played defense exclusively) were Taylor with a line of 9/1/10 and Ross with 6/3/9. He was listed on the second team for the all-star team (Art Ross was first team) that a group of fans put together during the half time of one of the games that year.

 

[seventieslord]

Best guessing this in a similar way to TDMM

The finishes we know about
- WCHL 1st All-Star Team (1922, 1923, 1925)
- WCHL 2nd All-Star Team (1924)

All teams in 1922 played 24/25 games and he finished one point behind Cameron in a weaker league. He obliterates every other WCHL defender in scoring. WCHL is not playing an interlocking schedule at this point.

My best guess would be 4th at worst. Cleghorn, Cameron and Boucher all had very strong seasons.

1923

He appears to have been better than his western competition, Lloyd Cook and Art Duncan.
Calgary Herald, March 21, 1923


The Edmonton Bulletin



He just barely gets outscored by Cook in the PCHA by a single point but the contemporary praise is overwhelming especially given his performance in the cup finals. Boucher is equally excellent out east. So maybe 2nd?

1924 is a meh year for him doesn't add much to his resume.

1925 probably same as 70s for Gardiner? 4th? Scoring wise among D this is a strong season

I'm probably being overly harsh here but that would give him

2nd, 4th, 4th?

I don't usually grade stuff out like this, so I could be way off.

Yeah, if we play it conservative the way TDMM did, this is probably 4, 4, 6, 8.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

^ Plus, Simpson was the best player on the Allan Cup winners in 1916! I think it's pointless to attempt any sort of Norris-equivalency thing for him in amateur hockey vs professional hockey but the newspapers held him in very, very high regard that year.

It's at least something more than Gardiner playing virtually no hockey at all before the Big-4.

 

[ResilientBeast]

So, I know there is some skepticism surrounding my reconstructed scoring tables, but I trust them; I have the scans to prove who I've listed as scoring and/or assisting on goals. I don't have Smith with 12 goals, I have him with 8 (with an assist) and 5th overall in points (behind McKerrow, McDougall, Barlow, and McLea). Of the 25 goals Ottawa scored, I have A. Smith with 8, Westwick with 5, Spittal with 4, Living with 1, M. Smith with 1, then some split goals; A. Smith or M. Smith scored another 3, A. Smith, M. Smith, or Westwick scored 1, A. Smith or Westwick scored 1, and I have 1 UNK goal.

I trust your data, but I just have mine raw ripped from SIHR.

Would be open to making changes for those years however.

 

[rmartin65]

A Case for Alf Smith​

Since I took a couple shots at Smith earlier, I’d like to explain why I’m still ranking him very high this round. Basically, as @seventieslord already wrote, Alf Smith has a lot of things going for him here- he has a high peak, an exceedingly long career for his time (he plate regularly until he was 35!), he won championships, and was a strong overall player whose primary offensive contributions probably hurt him in in the VsX tables (as does missing several years of what was likely his physical prime).

His time in the AHAC (1895-1897) was where he gets the highest level of praise; as I’ve posted a couple of times, some highlights are-

“Smith was the bright star of the fourteen. He outshone all others and elicited great admiration. His playing was commented upon and praised by everybody”

“Smith is, admittedly, the finest forward in Canada”

“Smith was certainly the star player on the ice, and made numerous grand rushes up the side, seeming to get through his opponents with the greatest of ease”

“Smith, acknowledged as the greatest of hockeyeists…”

Here are my reconstructed scoring tables for 1896 and 1897 (counting the “maybe” points as a point, as they represent the player was credited with either the goal or an assist on the same goal, and the “or” goals/assists/points as half points (or ⅓ points if 3 players are mentioned)), listing only the top 5 for each season-

1896

Name	Team	Goals	Assists	Points
McDougall	Victorias	12	1	14
Swift	Quebec	8.5	2.5	11
S. Davidson	Victorias	6.17	4.5	10.67
Smith	Ottawa	7.33	2	10.33
Kirby	Ottawa	3	4.5	9.5

1897

Name	Team	Goals	Assists	Points
Barlow	Montreal HC	10	3	15
McKerrow	Montreal HC	12.5	1	13.5
McDougall	Victorias	10.5	2	13.5
McLea	Victorias	7.5	4.5	12
Smith	Ottawa	10.34	1	11.34

As seventies mentioned, Alf Smith then missed several years of Senior level hockey, not suiting up again until 1901-02 (for Pittsburg AC in the WPHL). The next stats I have for Smith are for the 1904 CAHL season, but as I have explained earlier, Ottawa left the league after four games. As such, the 1905 FAHL season is my next set of quotes and tables.

“Alf. Smith was the best forward on the ice”

“Smith was put into the side three times in succession, and while he continued without a grouch, it was apparent that the famous right wing had the bulk of his energy sapped by the fearful collisions with the wall”

1905-

Name	Team	Goals	Assists	Points
McGee	Ottawa	19.5	3	23.5
Westwick	Ottawa	14.5	7	22.5
Smith	Ottawa	11	8	19
Marshall	Wanderers	13	0	13
Glass	Wanderers	10	1	11

It is Smith’s time in the ECAHA (ages 33-35) that really solidifies Smith’s legacy, IMO. Assists start being tracked a little more, and here we can see Smith’s real value offensively- he’s the one really driving the Ottawa offense.

“Among the front rank Alf. Smith and Westwick were the stars and won the match for their side”

“The Smith brothers did most of the work of the forwards, especially Alf, who was aggressive all through”

“The work of the Smiths was particularly brilliant, and the shooting of the younger brother of the highest order. He scored the majority of Ottawa’s goals after brilliant work or on a pass from A. Smith, the latter playing a hard tireless game and boring right in on the visitors’ defence regardless of the heavy checking of Strachan and Patrick”

“Alf. Smith, who. Perhaps, put up the best game of his career, broke away with one of his wonderful rushes…”

“For the Ottawas, Alf. Smith probably put up the best game for his side, although he did not become prominent until the second half opened. His work was telling perhaps when Ottawa was playing against extra men. He appeared to be wherever he wanted, following back fast and helping out the defence. He covered the whole ice helping out the centre and both wings.”

“On the Ottawa side, the bright particular star was Alf. Smith, though his brother did some very spectacular work, yet he has not that wonderful initiative of Alf. and the faculty for making openings for others. To Alf. belongs the credit for almost every goal Harry scores, but it is a great deal to take advantage of opportunities”

“ Alf. Smith was to the fore, as usual, with his lightning dashes, and he awake the enthusiasm of the crowd on many occasions with his end to end rushes. He does not figure in the summary, but a large number of the goals were scored after he beat the Vics’ defence and passed out to his teammates”

“ Alf Smith again clearly proved his title to being the most unselfish forward playing the game,and it was apparently impossible to stop him when he started along the side”

“But Alf Smith was his cover and those who have seen Smith playing this year know just what that means for the man opposite him”

“Alf Smith again demonstrated that he is the peer of right wing men”

“Alf. Smith gave the other three forwards some beautiful chances”

“The work of Alf. Smith is simply amazing. He plays the game like a whirlwind from the very start and seems just as strong when the gong sounds time up as when he started. The way he worked through the Vics’ defence single-handed Saturday night was great to see, and his shooting was of the best.”

“Alf. Smith was the star of the losers, apparently, and the way he tore up and down his side was a revelation. Alf., it was, who started most of the Ottawa attacks; in fact he was the whole team for a while in the second half. His shooting was deadly, and every time he got within range, Alf. paused, took aim and shot like a bullett. He intercepted Wanderer passes twenty times or more when Wanderer scores seemed inevitable, and gave the other forwards beautiful chances. ‘Watch Alf. Smith’ was the cry of Capt. Patrick throughout, and Alf. certainly merited attention. “

“Phillips and Smith are the greatest wings in the game”

1906

Name	Team	Goals	Assists	Points
Bowie	Victorias	29.5	6	35.5
H. Smith	Ottawa	32	1	33
A. Smith	Ottawa	12.5	16.5	30
McGee	Ottawa	26	2	28
Power	Quebec	22	2	24

1907

Name	Team	Goals	Assists	Points
Bowie	Victorias	38.5	11.5	50
E. Russell	Wanderers	38.5	2.5	41
A. Smith	Ottawa	17.33	16	33.84
B. Russell	Victorias	22	3	26
H. Smith	Ottawa	21	4	26

1908

Name	Team	Goals	Assists	Points
Phillips	Ottawa	24.5	15.33	41.83
Bowie	Victorias	27.33	5.5	35.83
Walsh	Ottawa	27	3.5	30.5
Jordan	Quebec	23.5	7	30.5
A. Smith	Ottawa	12	13	26

Unfortunately, I don’t have all the SC challenge games done yet, so I can’t provide anything of value there.

Disclaimer- All numbers compiled in good faith. I’m sure I made a mistake (or two or three) somewhere; I’ll be more than happy to fix anything if someone points out an error. I’m also very much open to erasing these tables if the methodology (giving out half-points for the “or” goals, giving a point for the “maybe” goals) seems wrong to people.

Long story short- Smith was very, very good for a very, very long time. His scoring exploits may not have as high a peak as those of Dunderdale or Tommy Smith, but I think he was much more of an offensive driver than those guys, in addition to being a strong all-around player (at least in the back half of his career). He is an easy vote-in for me this round, even if he's not number 1.

 

[seventieslord]

Thanks for that, @rmartin65 .

We have another 6 days before voting opens. Everyone should really go back to page 1 and really read all the passages on Weldy Young. This guy was a superstar.

Tell me what "younger" player in this round was talked about with such high praise (and as frequently) as Young, Bain and Alf Smith? Or even close?

And it's not like he even played all that long ago. He's not some 1882 Ottawa Winter Carnival standout. He played in the top league and competed for the cup. He's just 3 years older than Bain and 2 years younger than Grant (and seems to compare pretty favourably to Grant, who's already in). There are players coming who are 8 years older than him.

If all three of these players were up for voting last round, I think I'd have even had them top-3 then. That's how strongly I feel about this trio.

 

[rmartin65]

I started working my way through 1909, and one of the summaries had a really flattering review of Moran-

Paddy Moran, the veteran goal-keeper of the Quebec team gave what was undoubtedly the greatest performance in the flags ever seen here. Moran had his eye strictly on the rubber throughout and had it not been for his sterling work, the score would have been twice as large. Moran stopped the puck with his hands, feet and body in a remarkable manner. As a goalkeeper Moran is in a class by himself. Last year he was great; this winter he is still greater

This is from an Ottawa paper after a game between Ottawa and Quebec, so the writer just saw LeSueur and Moran on the same ice. And while the summary contained praise for LeSueur, it was nothing like the quote I posted above.

 

[overpass]

While Herb Gardiner won the Hart in 1926-27, he was only voted a second team all-star by NHL coaches, behind King Clancy and Dunc Munro.

All-star team selected by NHL coaches (1927 to 1946)

For the seasons 1926-27 to 1929-30, NHL coaches were polled for their all-stars of the season to create all-star teams. I've posted the 1926-27 and 1927-28 teams previously. The 1929-30 teams are new to me and I don't think they have been posted here. (thanks to Pam Coburn for the article). I...

forums.hfboards.com

I think this Hart trophy was an Elmer Ferguson special. Ferguson started his influential award campaigns right from 1923-24 when he pushed for Cleghorn over Nighbor, and IMO he can take some credit for 9 of the first 16 Hart trophies going to players on Montreal teams.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't have a strong opinion on Herb Gardiner, but when he won the Hart with the Canadiens, it was in a season when Montreal's GA (goals against) got much better compared to the previous season.

But there's another potential reason for that jump: Georges Hainsworth's arrival, after one year where the Canadiens had Herb Rheaume in net following George Vézina's retirement.

1925 GA (with Georges Vézina)
56 (Montreal Canadiens)
60 (Hamilton Tigers)
65 (Montreal Maroons)
66 (Ottawa Senators)
84 (Toronto St. Patricks)
119 (Boston Bruins)

1926 GA (with Herb Rheaume)
42 (Ottawa Senators)
70 (Pittsburgh Pirates)
73 (Montreal Maroons)
85 (Boston Bruins)
89 (New York Americans)
108 (Montreal Canadiens)
114 (Toronto St. Patricks)

1927 GA (with Georges Hainsworth)
67 (Montreal Canadiens)
68 (Montreal Maroons)
69 (Ottawa Senators)
72 (New York Rangers)
89 (Boston Bruins)
91 (New York Americans)
94 (Toronto Maple Leafs)
105 (Detroit Cougars)
108 (Pittsburgh Pirates)
116 (Chicago Balckhawks)

How much respective credit does Gardiner and/or Hainsworth deserve, I don't know.

 

[BenchBrawl]

@rmartin65's research revealed that Weldy Young was an absolute beauty; a player I barely knew, I should add (there's still some stuff to research in deep hockey history!). Considering the constant praise for his all-around game, star power, and relative longevity, he's my #1 this round.

 

[seventieslord]

While Herb Gardiner won the Hart in 1926-27, he was only voted a second team all-star by NHL coaches, behind King Clancy and Dunc Munro.

All-star team selected by NHL coaches (1927 to 1946)

For the seasons 1926-27 to 1929-30, NHL coaches were polled for their all-stars of the season to create all-star teams. I've posted the 1926-27 and 1927-28 teams previously. The 1929-30 teams are new to me and I don't think they have been posted here. (thanks to Pam Coburn for the article). I...

forums.hfboards.com

I think this Hart trophy was an Elmer Ferguson special. Ferguson started his influential award campaigns right from 1923-24 when he pushed for Cleghorn over Nighbor, and IMO he can take some credit for 9 of the first 16 Hart trophies going to players on Montreal teams.

Good point, I completely forgot that we had unofficial all-star teams for this year that we could go by.

I don't have a strong opinion on Herb Gardiner, but when he won the Hart with the Canadiens, it was in a season when Montreal's GA (goals against) got much better compared to the previous season.

But there's another potential reason for that jump: Georges Hainsworth's arrival, after one year where the Canadiens had Herb Rheaume in net following George Vézina's retirement.

1925 GA (with Georges Vézina)
56 (Montreal Canadiens)
60 (Hamilton Tigers)
65 (Montreal Maroons)
66 (Ottawa Senators)
84 (Toronto St. Patricks)
119 (Boston Bruins)

1926 GA (with Herb Rheaume)
42 (Ottawa Senators)
70 (Pittsburgh Pirates)
73 (Montreal Maroons)
85 (Boston Bruins)
89 (New York Americans)
108 (Montreal Canadiens)
114 (Toronto St. Patricks)

1927 GA (with Georges Hainsworth)
67 (Montreal Canadiens)
68 (Montreal Maroons)
69 (Ottawa Senators)
72 (New York Rangers)
89 (Boston Bruins)
91 (New York Americans)
94 (Toronto Maple Leafs)
105 (Detroit Cougars)
108 (Pittsburgh Pirates)
116 (Chicago Balckhawks)

How much respective credit does Gardiner and/or Hainsworth deserve, I don't know.

I frequently bring this up when discussing hainsworth as evidence that he was not as highly regarded as his statistics, so my position is that Gardner was given the bulk of the credit for this improved defensive result.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Good point, I completely forgot that we had unofficial all-star teams for this year that we could go by.


I frequently bring this up when discussing hainsworth as evidence that he was not as highly regarded as his statistics, so my position is that Gardner was given the bulk of the credit for this improved defensive result.

Yeah, most likely.

From TDMM's bio on Gardiner, the article about him winning the Hart trophy:

Montreal Gazette said:

"Gardiner's selection as the winner of the Hart Trophy comes as no surprise. This veteran from the prairie, who came to Canadiens this season from Calgary, has been credited with much of the success that the team has attained. He not only has proved a star at left defence, but he has travelled practically 60 minutes in all games; has taken few penalties, but above all, has been the inspiration to the team from the first. He generals them on the ice and when they show signs of crumbling, he always cuts loose with speedy hockey which serves to rally his teammates. His generalship has been the big factor in Canadiens' triumphs and his example as a clean player has been a benefit to the club."

It does look clear he played a big role. What I'd like to see, and I am ashamed to say I have no recollection of reading anything about it, was how Hainsworth was perceived that year. Unfortunately, I am currently not up to the task of digging into newspapers.

Was it all Gardiner, or both excelling? The fact he got only 2nd AST raises suspicions.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Paddy Moran should get in, and I wish Tom Paton will come up soon too. They feel like the next goalies in line.

Joe Simpson's peak is getting hard to ignore.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Just to confirm, lists are due next Sunday?

 

[BenchBrawl]

After years of doing this, I'm still not sure who I prefer between Joe Hall, Art Duncan and Joe Simpson. I think I have Duncan last though.

Joe Hall has an appealing profile, in that he was a great leader, a very tough and feared player, and as he got older, his violence was calculating, and he was on high watch from the referees. Plus, he ended up as the oldest player in hockey, usually a sign of having great talent. He was still the #1 D on those Canadiens teams at the end of his career when he died from the Influenza epidemic in the 1919 Stanley Cup finals.

Outside the rink, he was shrewd with money and popular among teammates and people f rom teh city alike:

Hall was one of he few professional athletes who saved his money. He worked on the railroad during the summer months, and this, with his hockey earnings, enabled him to purchase property in Brandon, which will leave his wife and three children, two sons and a daughter, in comfortable circumstances.

Hall played the game for all there was in it, and, although he checked hard and close, he was never known to take a mean advantage of a weaker opponent. He was popular with his clubmates, and had many friends in the cities in which he played hockey.

He was also the most popular player on those Quebec teams:

Joe Hall most popular player on Quebec team.

---

Joe Hall, the well known defence man of the Quebec team was presented with a handsome silver cup at the beginning of last night's game against Ottawa at the Arena.The cup which was donated by the Quebec Realty and Loan Company to be awarded to the most popular player on the Quebec team, was presented to the star defence man by (? illegible) Geo. Belanger and Alex. Plante amid a storm of applause from the spectators.

Hall won the popularity voting content, which was so arranged that each voter had to pay a certain amount for the right to vote, and the total amount of the receipts will be divided among the players on the "Bulldog" team.

Joe Hall richly deserves the cup, for he has certainly played fine hockey all season. He is out to win every time he gets on the ice, and puts every ounce of his energy into the game, from the first minute to the last.

---

Art Duncan, I don't know as well, but he was a top superstar in the 1923 Stanley Cup finals. He always impressed me when I red about that final in my Ottawa research. But that was on the verge of his absolute peak season, which is kind of an oasis in his career.

Joe Simpson's peak was higher and more credible among this group, but he collapsed out east. Still, getting difficult to ignore at this point. I'm tempted to rank him #1 in this group based on his peak. But something about Joe Hall is so appealing...