Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 7
- Thread starter seventieslord
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Please note - because of how long we had to extend the voting period for last week's round, this round was set to be much too short for the number of candidates that need discussing. That's why we are not voting for this round until next weekend, not this weekend.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Young generated discussion late in the preliminary discussion. Would love for someone to make a case for him to be ranked. He is the oldest birth date up for discussion so far. He is also someone that was functionally disqualified from ever turning pro, as he was in his 30s when that became an option and was already long retired.
Bain and Simpson stand out to me as the clear strongest two names.
Bain and Simpson stand out to me as the clear strongest two names.
Last edited:
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Seventies' VsX equivalents for eligible forwards:
real interesting field of forwards. You have six who were legit offensive stars with comparable peaks, and none of them do much else. The bottom four are all by far the strongest players outside of offense.
Alf Smith is MUCH better than these number show. It's a wonder he keeps up with the likes of Noble and Broadbent as it is.
- he was already an established star, leading the AHAC in scoring at 23 (VsX scores of 100 and 70)
- didn't play any meaningful games in 97-98, as he was deemed ineligible
- missed age 25-27 seasons due to suspension (mired in the major debate of the time, the scourge of professionalism vs. simon pure amateurism)
- In age 28 season, played exhibition games for Pittsburgh, led team in scoring (no one noteable there, though)
- In age 29 season, lead WPHL in scoring, which is not captured in my numbers above. It was a lower level league, but not a complete wasteland. There are recognizable names.
- In 1903, wikipedia says he coached ottawa, SIHR says he was suspended. Both may have been true.
- In 03-04, his age 30 season, he scored at a pace that would have put him 5th in the league in scoring (still only half Bowie's total) but Ottawa only had 4 games that year, the rest had 8 (why?)
- In 04-05, his age 31 season, he finally got back to playing full seasons of top-level hockey, earning VsX scores of 66, 65, 55 and 44 and winning a bunch of cups
Therefore, these VsX scores you see were attained up to age 23, and from age 31 onwards. Nothing from 24-30, a span of 7 seasons, seasons which may very well have been his best, and surely would've been among them. He was a 100 VsX player when he left and a 65 when he came back, it's fair to surmise he'd have at least been in that range most of that time.
Not only that, but Smith was good defensively and a punishing and intimidating physical player.
In this round, along with Young and Bain, he stands out as a player who was exceptionally strong in his generation and not just a face in the crowd (I'm looking at you, Dunderdale, Roberts, Russell.....)
| player | 3y | 5y | 7y | 10y |
| T.Smith | 103 | 97 | 88 | 71 |
| Morris | 94 | 89 | 82 | 67 |
| Dunderdale | 94 | 85 | 78 | 71 |
| Roberts | 94 | 83 | 75 | 62 |
| Walsh | 102 | 85 | 62 | 44 |
| Russell | 89 | 78 | 69 | 51 |
| Noble | 74 | 71 | 67 | 59 |
| A.Smith | 79 | 71 | 61 | 46 |
| Broadbent | 77 | 66 | 60 | 53 |
| Walker | 69 | 61 | 57 | 52 |
real interesting field of forwards. You have six who were legit offensive stars with comparable peaks, and none of them do much else. The bottom four are all by far the strongest players outside of offense.
Alf Smith is MUCH better than these number show. It's a wonder he keeps up with the likes of Noble and Broadbent as it is.
- he was already an established star, leading the AHAC in scoring at 23 (VsX scores of 100 and 70)
- didn't play any meaningful games in 97-98, as he was deemed ineligible
- missed age 25-27 seasons due to suspension (mired in the major debate of the time, the scourge of professionalism vs. simon pure amateurism)
- In age 28 season, played exhibition games for Pittsburgh, led team in scoring (no one noteable there, though)
- In age 29 season, lead WPHL in scoring, which is not captured in my numbers above. It was a lower level league, but not a complete wasteland. There are recognizable names.
- In 1903, wikipedia says he coached ottawa, SIHR says he was suspended. Both may have been true.
- In 03-04, his age 30 season, he scored at a pace that would have put him 5th in the league in scoring (still only half Bowie's total) but Ottawa only had 4 games that year, the rest had 8 (why?)
- In 04-05, his age 31 season, he finally got back to playing full seasons of top-level hockey, earning VsX scores of 66, 65, 55 and 44 and winning a bunch of cups
Therefore, these VsX scores you see were attained up to age 23, and from age 31 onwards. Nothing from 24-30, a span of 7 seasons, seasons which may very well have been his best, and surely would've been among them. He was a 100 VsX player when he left and a 65 when he came back, it's fair to surmise he'd have at least been in that range most of that time.
Not only that, but Smith was good defensively and a punishing and intimidating physical player.
In this round, along with Young and Bain, he stands out as a player who was exceptionally strong in his generation and not just a face in the crowd (I'm looking at you, Dunderdale, Roberts, Russell.....)
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
From the voting thread, @jigglysquishy wondered about the Jack Walker #1 vote. That was from me. I guess I missed how much of an outlier it was to have had him voted highly the round prior to that, as I would've posted more on him last round. Not at home right now but I'll just put in a few words here.
There's so much to like about Jack Walker, but most of it doesn't show up in the numbers. He's like the opposite of somebody like Bernie Morris or especially Tommy Dunderdale, whose cases are built almost solely on numbers. But Walker was probably the second best defensive forward/rover beside Nighbor of the era, and much like the Pembroke Peach, success followed Walker around no matter where he played. Part of his lower totals are because he played rover for most of his time out west, which was a defensive position for many teams of the day. And during the brief period where he was a forward during his prime, in Toronto, he was voted the best player on the team that won the Cup. My hunch is that if he'd played wing his whole career, he would've scored much more and thus had a much more attractive resume.
That's like the briefest of brief cases for him. With an extra week of discussion I might see if I can do some more on him.
There's so much to like about Jack Walker, but most of it doesn't show up in the numbers. He's like the opposite of somebody like Bernie Morris or especially Tommy Dunderdale, whose cases are built almost solely on numbers. But Walker was probably the second best defensive forward/rover beside Nighbor of the era, and much like the Pembroke Peach, success followed Walker around no matter where he played. Part of his lower totals are because he played rover for most of his time out west, which was a defensive position for many teams of the day. And during the brief period where he was a forward during his prime, in Toronto, he was voted the best player on the team that won the Cup. My hunch is that if he'd played wing his whole career, he would've scored much more and thus had a much more attractive resume.
That's like the briefest of brief cases for him. With an extra week of discussion I might see if I can do some more on him.
Weldy Young quotes-
Alf Smith quotes-
Note- @seventieslord posted the VsX scores, and I think it is important to note that Smith is likely undervalued by that measurement due to him being a strong playmaker.
Paddy Moran quotes-
1891-
“For the winning team, Young played a faultless game at cover point”
1892-
“Young at cover point was playing a star game and two or three superb runs by Bradley and Russell put more life into the forward play”
“faultless at cover, except that in one or two instances he showed the error, rare with him, of unnecessarily holding or dodging the puck”
“Young, though unwell, played his usual splendid game at cover point, while Russell and Morel were a sure defence”
“the brilliant play of Young and Russell was seen as time and again they broke a dangerous combination”
“The Ottawas were playing a much rougher game, especially Young and little Kirby”
“Who put up the best individual game is hard to say, but probably Young of the Ottawas carried of the palm, his headwork saving many goals to his side”
1893-
“was all that could be desired. He accepted every chance and played all the game for Ottawa”
“Sick or not Weldy Young at times own the ice and it was a sight to see him time and again get away with that puck and send it up the side”
“Weldon Young was the bright star of the evening. He repelled many a fierce attack, and his rushes were brilliant”
“was a bad man for even this phalanx [the Quebec forwards] to run up against, and time and again its rush was checked at the play turned in the opposite direction by the brilliant coverpoint in white”
“played a marvelous game, covering the ice in inimitable style”
“caught the Crystals on their off-side play time after time and the way they fell into the trap and took the puck back was well worth seeing”
“‘ There’s a hockey player’, said a Montreal man as Weld. Young made one of his phenomenal rushes, dodging everybody, after successfully checking an opposing forward. The Crystal forwards never could get past Weld.”
“played a capital game and sustained his reputation as the best cover-point in Canada”
“Young was not as brilliant as he was during other matches, however”
“was all over the ice making grand runs”
1894-
“Morel was o.k in goal, and Young as reliable as ever at cover-point”
“Morel in goals played a good game, but Young was no doubt the star of his team and constantly sent the rubber towards his opponents goals”
“superb and almost impassable at cover-point”
“The Ottawa defence was kept busy throughout, but they fought off the enemy in a rattling manner, the burden of the work being attended to by Weldy Young and Pulford”
“At cover-point Weldy Young as usual was everywhere when wanted and strengthened the opinion that is now pretty general that he is the best defence player in Canada. He is the key of the Ottawa team. Pulford did well at point and will probably be a fixture there now”
“Weldy Young, who had been playing magnificently for Ottawa, here received a severe check in the stomach, and for a time it was thought he could not resume, but he did so and continued his splendid defence”
“Weldy Young earned great Kudos by his play as cover-point, which was almost flawless”
“Up to within an hour of the match it was doubtful whether Weldy Young could play, as he had been ill all week from the blow in the stomach received in the Victoria match in Ottawa. However, Brown gave him a great rub-down, and Halder Kirby swathed him in a bandage, and Weldy played his best game”
“The play of Kirby and Russell was immense. On the defense Morel and Young were grand. Young especially distinguished himself by his coolness and good judgment. He never missed a chance.”
“Young certainly was a host in assisting to repel the determined attack”
“[t]he puck however seldom got behind Weldy Young”
“Young must have known, however, that there was no possibility of winning. He resolved at any rate to do or die. Getting the circulator, he made a long run, avoided James and Cameron, passed out to Russell, who was near the Montreal goal, and the big fellow pushed it through”
Most of the battle was as usual fought by Young and Pulford, but the odds against them were too great to effect the result.”
“the greatest cover point in Canada”
“Weld. Young and Chaunce Kirby showed that they are probably the two best hockey players in Canada. It was they who bore the great brunt of the fierce onslaughts of the Montreal besiegers. Their checking was grand, and could not be improved upon. Not only did they stand firm to stop the rush of the heavy Montreal line which gathered greater impetus as they swept along the keen ice, but often did Ottawa’s white-shirted players charge also. And it wasn’t the white shirts that gave away the most times in these collisions, for often they would not only repel the onslaught, but take the puck and attack in return. Pulford did good work also”
“Weldy Young was undoubtedly the ‘star’ of the Ottawas. He fully sustained his reputation as the best cover-point in Canada”
[p]robably most of their [Ottawa’s] success was due to Young, who again showed that he has no equal in his position. His quick and fine returns of the puck many times from even the Quebec team’s territory saved the forwards a great deal of tiresome skating, owing to the bad condition of the ice, and the latter when called upon were consequently able to more than cope with the fast and sturdy rushers of the Ancient Captial’s team, who were not thus saved by their cover point. Weld. did so much of the playing that he weakened himself and fell exhausted. He is as ‘gritty’ a player as he is good, however, and as soon as he was on his feet again he played with unabated vigor. Next to Weld., Joe McDougal played the best. He was phenomenally fast”
“Hodgson’s repeated runs, brilliant and clean as they were, Young’s artistic stops, Kirby’s amazing dodges, and Barlow’s neat clever play were noticeable”
“Captain Young, whose plucky play had won the admiration of friend and foe alike, was stretchered out on the floor in a faint”
“the play of Young and Kirby was simply phenomenal. Young in the opinion of many put up the finest defence game ever witnessed in hockey. He was everywhere and always in the right place; nothing could pass him if he had half a chance at it, and apparently throughout the game he never missed or misplaced a lift”
1895-
‘Weldy’ Young played one of the best games of his life”
“Pulford was not up to the mark, and it was only the excellent work of Young that prevented a bigger score against them”
“Weldy Young put up his usual splendid game for the Ottawas until he was hurt”
“was easy to see that the Ottawas missed their star cover point, although Dan Watters at point was putting up a grand game”.
“Young’s tactics were, as usual, very clever and very effective, and towards the end of the game he did a great deal of rushing”
“Finally Young, who was putting up his usual clever game at cover point, made a fine lift”
“Weldy’ Young lifted beautifully at cover”
“There was every sort of good play in the match and plenty of ‘lifting’ the puck. Young outlifted Cameron of the Montrealers and twice nearly scored. He also made brilliant rushes. To his splendid work much of the victory was due”
“Young played a steady, headdy game that helped materially to lessen the dangers threatening the Ottawa flags”
“Why don’t you faint, Young?”
“Had it not been for the grand lifting abilities of Young and Pulford and other splendid stops of Chittick the score for the Victorias would have been much larger”
“All the Ottawa forwards in turn then came within an ace of scoring, and Ottawa were getting considerably the best of the game. Young kept them well fed”
“Time after time Young rushed forward in a desperate effort to score”
“Smith made an effort that will go down into hockey history as one of the bravest attempts of a hockey player. Captain Young, too, seeing that it was best, left his position and threw himself into the breach with the last desperate attempt of a man who knows he has got to do or die. And it was grand, aye, sublime, the hockey these two men put up in the eventful minutes.”
“Smith was the bright star of the fourteen. He outshone all others and elicited great admiration. His playing was commented upon and praised by everybody. Next to him came Shirley Davidson of the Vics. He played marvelously. But Young in his position put up a game none the less good. He probably played better than he ever did before”
1896-
“Weldy Young was as tricky as ever”
“ Weldy Young played the same old game, tricky, but he almost always got the rubber when it came his way. In the course of his hockey career Weldy has learned a few things. He never faints now, for instance; but Weldy ought to learn the fact that the rules of the game forbid tripping”
“There can be little doubt that the best team won, although the game throughout was a toss up, and the unruly tempers of Smith and Young had considerable to do with their team’s defeat”
“When Young was on he played as brilliantly as usual, and there is no doubt that the three defence men of the Ottawas compose a back division that is the strongest in Canada”
“On the defence Young was, as ever, the best of coverpoints”
“Weldy Young did yeoman work for Ottawa at cover point, which was the more effective on account of the almost entire absence of his tricky habits.”
“Young at point made no mistakes and he and Pulford both indulged in runs up the ice”
“Young, Pulford and Chittick did not make one mistake”
1897-
“Smith was the star of the Ottawas, and ‘Weldy’ Young showed that he has not forgotten how to play, filling his position in a most credible manner.”
“The Ottawas all put up a good game, but Smith, Westwick, and Young did the major part of the work”
“‘Weldy’ Young was slightly off in his play, and also committed an inexcusable foul in the first half. He played splendidly in the second”
“Young, missing a rush by the Quebec cover-point Watson, let go a vicious slash at Watson’s ankles which stopped the big player’s traveling for some minutes. Nominally it was an attempt to stop the puck, but a stricter referee would have relegated Young to the platform”
“And when matters were reversed and McKerrow or Barlow would come down the ice like ghosts on skates, Weldy Young would attempt to demonstrate something about the old problem of an irresistible force running into something it couldn’t hurt”
“Barlow and McKerrow broke through the attack several times, but always lost to Young or Pulford”
“Young had his work cut out for him, but he was equal to the occasion and Chittick was a great stopper”
“Young was everywhere, until he and Macdougall came together and commenced a fight, which was speedily stopped. After that Young retired to cover point and was less conspicuous”
“Young and Pulford did a lot of good defence work, but did not seem to be able to use their bodies as effectively as usual”
“Toward the end of the match Weldy Young, who had been working like a beaver, had to move to point,”
“Only the splendid work by Ottawas’ defense and particularly by Weldy Young at cover point prevented the score from being much larger”
“Despite the fact that Weldy Young gave his attention all last week to other club business and was unable to practise he played splendidly, and was perhaps the hardest worked man on the ice. He did the biggest amount of defence work and whenever an opportunity showed itself got out and gave the forward line assistance”
“Young worked hard and used his body as he probably never did before”
“Of the visitors, Drinkwater was a little off color, but nevertheless played well, while the others were well nigh perfect. ‘Mike’ Grant showed that he is almost the equal of ‘Weldy’ Young at cover-point”
“Howard and Barlow made some great efforts, but the Ottawa defence were on deck for keeps. Pulford and Young were not the gentlest players on the top of the earth, but they were very serviceable”
“Young did occasional good service playing fairly throughout, but the others were nowhere”
“During the first fifteen minutes Young was less effective than usual, but afterwards he did grand work. He deserved most of the credit for the scoring of Ottawa’s second goal”
“Contrary to general expectation Weldy Young appeared on the ice and played an excellent game”
“Weldy Young went on and played at cover point, but his knees were in too poor condition to permit him to play anything like his usual game”
“Young’s excellent play on the defence made the Shamrock attack weary for his lifts were always put in in the right time and he never lost his head. He could keep a whole forward line guessing where he was at, and all of the sudden the puck would slip away from his stick and be out of danger. This is what saved the Senators goals several times”
“The match was a good exhibition, and at times some beautiful work was done by both teams, but when the ice got heavy and the pace slackened up, but even then there was plenty of excitement for the spectators by reason of the heavy checking indulged in. Young and Pulford were the leaders in this style of play and were not very particular how they stopped an opposing forward as long as they saved a score”
“For some reason or other, too, the crowd seemed particularly down on Weldie Young. Why, it is difficult to say, unless because, in spite of his being out of condition, he played the star game of the night for Ottawa”
“Young and Pulford on the defence put up their usually strong games. Young played particularly well in the second half, and his rushes to help the forward line were always good”
“Weldy Young played with a dash and vim for a while, but he looked as if he had been gathering flesh lately and was rather weak by the time the match ended”
“Young’s lifts were puzzling”
“The play of both teams was characterized by a looseness and want of combination on the forward line. This was especially noticeable on the part of the visitors, who, though well served by Pulford and Young, were unable to do much with the puck when they did get it.”
“Young was the only one who played well”
1899-
“It was the steadiness and strength of the Ottawa’s defence which won Saturday night’s match. Weldy Young was in his old-time form and played splendidly. WIth Bert McDonald, who played at point, he held out the Shamrock attacks in fine style”
“Weldy Young seems to be as good as ever, and played a great game, although his lifting at times was a little off color”
“Charlie Spittal and Weldy Young played their old tome, steady game. Young did some excellent interference, and sent many a Shamrock man to the ice with his body. He overdid it once or twice and was cautioned by the referee”
“The game was characterized by a lot of slashing and individual work. Weldy Young was ruled off five minutes for fouling Moran. Young played a rough game. He was warned several times for using his body unduly severely”
“Weldy Young played his usual good game at cover point. His lifts into the Quebec goals were a feature of the match”
“ ‘Chalk’ Young played his old-time game at cover point. He perhaps was a little uncertain of the result on account of the novices around him. Every time any of the Quebecers came his way he set himself and waited for the worst. But the strangest part of it was that the other fellow always got the worst of it. When Chalk could not successfully stop him with his stick he brought his body into play in characteristic style. Few indeed passed him, as the ‘jolts’ that Young was dishing up were too tart for the ‘Ancients’”
“For Ottawa, Young and Kirby as old timer showed up well, and were the only thing who could make a stand against the Montreal forwards”
“Of the Ottawa team, Young was unquestionably the star. His work at times was phenomenal. He repeatedly went up the ice through the Montreal crowd with apparent ease. ‘Chalk’ was up to all Howard and Horsfall’s tricks, and the two speedy Montreal forwards were fooled many a time. Every Montrealer laid for Young, and gave him as much dirt as possible. He was tripped, struck of the legs, body-checked and knocked about generally, but Chalk always came up serenly, and was in the game until his shoulder was dislocated. Chittick did not put up his usual game, and allowed several easy shots to go through. He complained that the defence men, Madonald and Young, crowded him and that he was unable to see the puck coming.”
“Young played well for the Ottawas, but not his usual good game. He did not take any great risks with his sore shoulder”
“Young made a couple of mistakes, but nevertheless played well”
“Young is still in the game. And he is the most scientific rusher of the seven”
“Young, for the visitors, from whom a good game is always expected, seemed off colour, and was not supported strongly enough to make many ventures against such veterans as the Vics. His absence in an assault on the Victoria’s flags was very weakening to their forward line”
“The Ottawa’s defence on the other end were badly off color. Young was not in anything like his usual shape, and the Victoria forwards found out quickly that it was easy to go past him”
“Young played a marvelous game, and in addition to going the full length of the ice, looked after several of the Montreal forwards, and time and again saved the flags. Macdonald was as cool as ever, and in the play-off, when he went out to cover point, he proved conclusively that he could fill that position satisfactorily. His lifting was a feature of the game, and under Young’s tuition Bert now uses good judgment”
“The defense played well and Young’s assistance to the forwards, particularly in the first half, had a lot to do with winning the game”
“There were three men on the Ottawa team who seemed to be about equal to the occasion. They were Henry, Stewart and Young. The latter came in for his usual share of disapprobation from the spectators, but Weldy did not seem to mind it a little bit and continued to play good hockey and check as hard as his weight would allow”
“For the winning team, Young played a faultless game at cover point”
1892-
“Young at cover point was playing a star game and two or three superb runs by Bradley and Russell put more life into the forward play”
“faultless at cover, except that in one or two instances he showed the error, rare with him, of unnecessarily holding or dodging the puck”
“Young, though unwell, played his usual splendid game at cover point, while Russell and Morel were a sure defence”
“the brilliant play of Young and Russell was seen as time and again they broke a dangerous combination”
“The Ottawas were playing a much rougher game, especially Young and little Kirby”
“Who put up the best individual game is hard to say, but probably Young of the Ottawas carried of the palm, his headwork saving many goals to his side”
1893-
“was all that could be desired. He accepted every chance and played all the game for Ottawa”
“Sick or not Weldy Young at times own the ice and it was a sight to see him time and again get away with that puck and send it up the side”
“Weldon Young was the bright star of the evening. He repelled many a fierce attack, and his rushes were brilliant”
“was a bad man for even this phalanx [the Quebec forwards] to run up against, and time and again its rush was checked at the play turned in the opposite direction by the brilliant coverpoint in white”
“played a marvelous game, covering the ice in inimitable style”
“caught the Crystals on their off-side play time after time and the way they fell into the trap and took the puck back was well worth seeing”
“‘ There’s a hockey player’, said a Montreal man as Weld. Young made one of his phenomenal rushes, dodging everybody, after successfully checking an opposing forward. The Crystal forwards never could get past Weld.”
“played a capital game and sustained his reputation as the best cover-point in Canada”
“Young was not as brilliant as he was during other matches, however”
“was all over the ice making grand runs”
1894-
“Morel was o.k in goal, and Young as reliable as ever at cover-point”
“Morel in goals played a good game, but Young was no doubt the star of his team and constantly sent the rubber towards his opponents goals”
“superb and almost impassable at cover-point”
“The Ottawa defence was kept busy throughout, but they fought off the enemy in a rattling manner, the burden of the work being attended to by Weldy Young and Pulford”
“At cover-point Weldy Young as usual was everywhere when wanted and strengthened the opinion that is now pretty general that he is the best defence player in Canada. He is the key of the Ottawa team. Pulford did well at point and will probably be a fixture there now”
“Weldy Young, who had been playing magnificently for Ottawa, here received a severe check in the stomach, and for a time it was thought he could not resume, but he did so and continued his splendid defence”
“Weldy Young earned great Kudos by his play as cover-point, which was almost flawless”
“Up to within an hour of the match it was doubtful whether Weldy Young could play, as he had been ill all week from the blow in the stomach received in the Victoria match in Ottawa. However, Brown gave him a great rub-down, and Halder Kirby swathed him in a bandage, and Weldy played his best game”
“The play of Kirby and Russell was immense. On the defense Morel and Young were grand. Young especially distinguished himself by his coolness and good judgment. He never missed a chance.”
“Young certainly was a host in assisting to repel the determined attack”
“[t]he puck however seldom got behind Weldy Young”
“Young must have known, however, that there was no possibility of winning. He resolved at any rate to do or die. Getting the circulator, he made a long run, avoided James and Cameron, passed out to Russell, who was near the Montreal goal, and the big fellow pushed it through”
Most of the battle was as usual fought by Young and Pulford, but the odds against them were too great to effect the result.”
“the greatest cover point in Canada”
“Weld. Young and Chaunce Kirby showed that they are probably the two best hockey players in Canada. It was they who bore the great brunt of the fierce onslaughts of the Montreal besiegers. Their checking was grand, and could not be improved upon. Not only did they stand firm to stop the rush of the heavy Montreal line which gathered greater impetus as they swept along the keen ice, but often did Ottawa’s white-shirted players charge also. And it wasn’t the white shirts that gave away the most times in these collisions, for often they would not only repel the onslaught, but take the puck and attack in return. Pulford did good work also”
“Weldy Young was undoubtedly the ‘star’ of the Ottawas. He fully sustained his reputation as the best cover-point in Canada”
[p]robably most of their [Ottawa’s] success was due to Young, who again showed that he has no equal in his position. His quick and fine returns of the puck many times from even the Quebec team’s territory saved the forwards a great deal of tiresome skating, owing to the bad condition of the ice, and the latter when called upon were consequently able to more than cope with the fast and sturdy rushers of the Ancient Captial’s team, who were not thus saved by their cover point. Weld. did so much of the playing that he weakened himself and fell exhausted. He is as ‘gritty’ a player as he is good, however, and as soon as he was on his feet again he played with unabated vigor. Next to Weld., Joe McDougal played the best. He was phenomenally fast”
“Hodgson’s repeated runs, brilliant and clean as they were, Young’s artistic stops, Kirby’s amazing dodges, and Barlow’s neat clever play were noticeable”
“Captain Young, whose plucky play had won the admiration of friend and foe alike, was stretchered out on the floor in a faint”
“the play of Young and Kirby was simply phenomenal. Young in the opinion of many put up the finest defence game ever witnessed in hockey. He was everywhere and always in the right place; nothing could pass him if he had half a chance at it, and apparently throughout the game he never missed or misplaced a lift”
1895-
‘Weldy’ Young played one of the best games of his life”
“Pulford was not up to the mark, and it was only the excellent work of Young that prevented a bigger score against them”
“Weldy Young put up his usual splendid game for the Ottawas until he was hurt”
“was easy to see that the Ottawas missed their star cover point, although Dan Watters at point was putting up a grand game”.
“Young’s tactics were, as usual, very clever and very effective, and towards the end of the game he did a great deal of rushing”
“Finally Young, who was putting up his usual clever game at cover point, made a fine lift”
“Weldy’ Young lifted beautifully at cover”
“There was every sort of good play in the match and plenty of ‘lifting’ the puck. Young outlifted Cameron of the Montrealers and twice nearly scored. He also made brilliant rushes. To his splendid work much of the victory was due”
“Young played a steady, headdy game that helped materially to lessen the dangers threatening the Ottawa flags”
“Why don’t you faint, Young?”
“Had it not been for the grand lifting abilities of Young and Pulford and other splendid stops of Chittick the score for the Victorias would have been much larger”
“All the Ottawa forwards in turn then came within an ace of scoring, and Ottawa were getting considerably the best of the game. Young kept them well fed”
“Time after time Young rushed forward in a desperate effort to score”
“Smith made an effort that will go down into hockey history as one of the bravest attempts of a hockey player. Captain Young, too, seeing that it was best, left his position and threw himself into the breach with the last desperate attempt of a man who knows he has got to do or die. And it was grand, aye, sublime, the hockey these two men put up in the eventful minutes.”
“Smith was the bright star of the fourteen. He outshone all others and elicited great admiration. His playing was commented upon and praised by everybody. Next to him came Shirley Davidson of the Vics. He played marvelously. But Young in his position put up a game none the less good. He probably played better than he ever did before”
1896-
“Weldy Young was as tricky as ever”
“ Weldy Young played the same old game, tricky, but he almost always got the rubber when it came his way. In the course of his hockey career Weldy has learned a few things. He never faints now, for instance; but Weldy ought to learn the fact that the rules of the game forbid tripping”
“There can be little doubt that the best team won, although the game throughout was a toss up, and the unruly tempers of Smith and Young had considerable to do with their team’s defeat”
“When Young was on he played as brilliantly as usual, and there is no doubt that the three defence men of the Ottawas compose a back division that is the strongest in Canada”
“On the defence Young was, as ever, the best of coverpoints”
“Weldy Young did yeoman work for Ottawa at cover point, which was the more effective on account of the almost entire absence of his tricky habits.”
“Young at point made no mistakes and he and Pulford both indulged in runs up the ice”
“Young, Pulford and Chittick did not make one mistake”
1897-
“Smith was the star of the Ottawas, and ‘Weldy’ Young showed that he has not forgotten how to play, filling his position in a most credible manner.”
“The Ottawas all put up a good game, but Smith, Westwick, and Young did the major part of the work”
“‘Weldy’ Young was slightly off in his play, and also committed an inexcusable foul in the first half. He played splendidly in the second”
“Young, missing a rush by the Quebec cover-point Watson, let go a vicious slash at Watson’s ankles which stopped the big player’s traveling for some minutes. Nominally it was an attempt to stop the puck, but a stricter referee would have relegated Young to the platform”
“And when matters were reversed and McKerrow or Barlow would come down the ice like ghosts on skates, Weldy Young would attempt to demonstrate something about the old problem of an irresistible force running into something it couldn’t hurt”
“Barlow and McKerrow broke through the attack several times, but always lost to Young or Pulford”
“Young had his work cut out for him, but he was equal to the occasion and Chittick was a great stopper”
“Young was everywhere, until he and Macdougall came together and commenced a fight, which was speedily stopped. After that Young retired to cover point and was less conspicuous”
“Young and Pulford did a lot of good defence work, but did not seem to be able to use their bodies as effectively as usual”
“Toward the end of the match Weldy Young, who had been working like a beaver, had to move to point,”
“Only the splendid work by Ottawas’ defense and particularly by Weldy Young at cover point prevented the score from being much larger”
“Despite the fact that Weldy Young gave his attention all last week to other club business and was unable to practise he played splendidly, and was perhaps the hardest worked man on the ice. He did the biggest amount of defence work and whenever an opportunity showed itself got out and gave the forward line assistance”
“Young worked hard and used his body as he probably never did before”
“Of the visitors, Drinkwater was a little off color, but nevertheless played well, while the others were well nigh perfect. ‘Mike’ Grant showed that he is almost the equal of ‘Weldy’ Young at cover-point”
“Howard and Barlow made some great efforts, but the Ottawa defence were on deck for keeps. Pulford and Young were not the gentlest players on the top of the earth, but they were very serviceable”
“Young did occasional good service playing fairly throughout, but the others were nowhere”
“During the first fifteen minutes Young was less effective than usual, but afterwards he did grand work. He deserved most of the credit for the scoring of Ottawa’s second goal”
“Contrary to general expectation Weldy Young appeared on the ice and played an excellent game”
“Weldy Young went on and played at cover point, but his knees were in too poor condition to permit him to play anything like his usual game”
“Young’s excellent play on the defence made the Shamrock attack weary for his lifts were always put in in the right time and he never lost his head. He could keep a whole forward line guessing where he was at, and all of the sudden the puck would slip away from his stick and be out of danger. This is what saved the Senators goals several times”
“The match was a good exhibition, and at times some beautiful work was done by both teams, but when the ice got heavy and the pace slackened up, but even then there was plenty of excitement for the spectators by reason of the heavy checking indulged in. Young and Pulford were the leaders in this style of play and were not very particular how they stopped an opposing forward as long as they saved a score”
“For some reason or other, too, the crowd seemed particularly down on Weldie Young. Why, it is difficult to say, unless because, in spite of his being out of condition, he played the star game of the night for Ottawa”
“Young and Pulford on the defence put up their usually strong games. Young played particularly well in the second half, and his rushes to help the forward line were always good”
“Weldy Young played with a dash and vim for a while, but he looked as if he had been gathering flesh lately and was rather weak by the time the match ended”
“Young’s lifts were puzzling”
“The play of both teams was characterized by a looseness and want of combination on the forward line. This was especially noticeable on the part of the visitors, who, though well served by Pulford and Young, were unable to do much with the puck when they did get it.”
“Young was the only one who played well”
1899-
“It was the steadiness and strength of the Ottawa’s defence which won Saturday night’s match. Weldy Young was in his old-time form and played splendidly. WIth Bert McDonald, who played at point, he held out the Shamrock attacks in fine style”
“Weldy Young seems to be as good as ever, and played a great game, although his lifting at times was a little off color”
“Charlie Spittal and Weldy Young played their old tome, steady game. Young did some excellent interference, and sent many a Shamrock man to the ice with his body. He overdid it once or twice and was cautioned by the referee”
“The game was characterized by a lot of slashing and individual work. Weldy Young was ruled off five minutes for fouling Moran. Young played a rough game. He was warned several times for using his body unduly severely”
“Weldy Young played his usual good game at cover point. His lifts into the Quebec goals were a feature of the match”
“ ‘Chalk’ Young played his old-time game at cover point. He perhaps was a little uncertain of the result on account of the novices around him. Every time any of the Quebecers came his way he set himself and waited for the worst. But the strangest part of it was that the other fellow always got the worst of it. When Chalk could not successfully stop him with his stick he brought his body into play in characteristic style. Few indeed passed him, as the ‘jolts’ that Young was dishing up were too tart for the ‘Ancients’”
“For Ottawa, Young and Kirby as old timer showed up well, and were the only thing who could make a stand against the Montreal forwards”
“Of the Ottawa team, Young was unquestionably the star. His work at times was phenomenal. He repeatedly went up the ice through the Montreal crowd with apparent ease. ‘Chalk’ was up to all Howard and Horsfall’s tricks, and the two speedy Montreal forwards were fooled many a time. Every Montrealer laid for Young, and gave him as much dirt as possible. He was tripped, struck of the legs, body-checked and knocked about generally, but Chalk always came up serenly, and was in the game until his shoulder was dislocated. Chittick did not put up his usual game, and allowed several easy shots to go through. He complained that the defence men, Madonald and Young, crowded him and that he was unable to see the puck coming.”
“Young played well for the Ottawas, but not his usual good game. He did not take any great risks with his sore shoulder”
“Young made a couple of mistakes, but nevertheless played well”
“Young is still in the game. And he is the most scientific rusher of the seven”
“Young, for the visitors, from whom a good game is always expected, seemed off colour, and was not supported strongly enough to make many ventures against such veterans as the Vics. His absence in an assault on the Victoria’s flags was very weakening to their forward line”
“The Ottawa’s defence on the other end were badly off color. Young was not in anything like his usual shape, and the Victoria forwards found out quickly that it was easy to go past him”
“Young played a marvelous game, and in addition to going the full length of the ice, looked after several of the Montreal forwards, and time and again saved the flags. Macdonald was as cool as ever, and in the play-off, when he went out to cover point, he proved conclusively that he could fill that position satisfactorily. His lifting was a feature of the game, and under Young’s tuition Bert now uses good judgment”
“The defense played well and Young’s assistance to the forwards, particularly in the first half, had a lot to do with winning the game”
“There were three men on the Ottawa team who seemed to be about equal to the occasion. They were Henry, Stewart and Young. The latter came in for his usual share of disapprobation from the spectators, but Weldy did not seem to mind it a little bit and continued to play good hockey and check as hard as his weight would allow”
Alf Smith quotes-
1895-
“[n]icer forward combinations between Russell, Kirby, and Smith was never witnessed on the rink”
“Smith and Kirby were especially good in passing work”
“Russell and Smith were the particular stars, and they did a wonderful amount of work”
“Every one of the Ottawas played well. Smith and Russell probably outshine the others. Smith fairly toyed with Swift”
“Smith worked very hard at first and then seemed to tire. He was often shy of following into the corners, and did not come back after his man like the rest of the Ottawa forwards”
“Smith made an effort that will go down into hockey history as one of the bravest attempts of a hockey player”
“Smith was the bright star of the fourteen. He outshone all others and elicited great admiration. His playing was commented upon and praised by everybody”
1896-
“Smith kept up his reputation as a rough player and distinguished himself by hitting Stephens with his stick”
“Smith is, admittedly, the finest forward in Canada”
“Smith was certainly the star player on the ice, and made numerous grand rushes up the side, seeming to get through his opponents with the greatest of ease”
“Smith was conspicuous by the clean game he put up. He has apparently reformed, and worked hard and with good judgment”
“There can be little doubt that the best team won, although the game throughout was a toss up, and the unruly tempers of Smith and Young had considerable to do with their team’s defeat”
“Smith, acknowledged as the greatest of hockeyeists, was Ottawa’s weak man. He was checked closely, fumbled badly, and rendered little to no assistance to the defeated team. To many it was evident overtraining had told severely on his playing”
“On the Ottawa side, Smith was the weak spot. He had not been very well, which partly accounts for his failure. He did not follow up on his side at all, and when the puck was down about the Vic goal he was often laying off half way up the ice waiting for it to come out”
“There were two particulars in which the game was remarkable; first, the superb work of Smith and Russell for Ottawa, and, second, the marvellous play of Stocking, who stood between the flags for Quebec. The two former never before so distinguished themselves. They went through the opposing forward and defence lines as if these latter were mere tin soldiers. It was splendid to watch, and the onlookers were stirred to the very limit of exultation by their performances. As to Stocking, he is a wonder, verily, he hasa “heye like a ‘awk’. Had it not been for him the score would have been 20 to 0, instead of being as it was 4 to 0”.
“The Ottawa forwards played like clockwork, except that often when passes would have surely enabled a score, the rusher stuck to the puck too long and lost it. This was particularly the case with Smith”
“Smith was in excellent form also and at times looked like a regular cyclone. Although closely checked he shone throughout the match. Westwick and Kirby filled their posts valiantly and unlike Smith, they played a thoroughly unselfish combined game”
1897-
“Smith mostly played his old brilliant game, although hanging back from the corners as usual”
“Smith was the star of the Ottawas”
“after one of his great runs”
“Alf Smith tired considerably in the second half and did not do nearly the amount of work he usually does”
“Alf Smith’s play was very erratic. He made a number of good dashes but at other times he lagged when his presence in the very front was most essential to secure victory. He seemed over-trained.”
“Alf Smith played well until the ice became heavy. In the latter part of the game he was badly winded and was of very little service to the team”
“Alf Smith seemed in something like his old time shape, and his rushes were a feature of the game”
“In Ottawa Drinkwater played on Alf. Smith. With a weak cover Saturday night, Smith was able to do much better work than he did in the match here”
“Alfred Smith, who performed such splendid work in Montreal, and upon whom so much reliance is placed, was very erratic. While he made some fine rushes, and within a few minutes of the end worked most industriously, at times he gave evidence of being completely [exhausted]”
1904-
“Alf. Smith’s hockey was of the brilliant order, he playing his position consistently, notwithstanding that he had not fully recovered from injuries received in the second Stanley cup game”
“For the Ottawas the rushes of Westwick and Smith seemed irresistible, and time and again they went through the Victoria line”
“It took pretty determined rushes to get by Smith and McGee, and several of the Wanderer goals were scored on long shots that were more like flukes than anything else”
1905-
“On the right wing, though opposed to the redoubtable Smith, he [Liffiton] played a clean clever game”
“Alf. Smith was the best forward on the ice”
“Smith probably played the best game on the ice, with Liffiton a close second”
Smith was put into the side three times in succession, and while he continued without a grouch, it was apparent that the famous right wing had the bulk of his energy sapped by the fearful collisions with the wall”
“Sheriff and Marks were in the running all the time too, but McGee and Smith rather kept them under cover”
“Marks had Smith played to a standstill in the second half”
“Smith came in for a large share of enforced leisure alongside the timekeepers on account of his disregard for the rules of the game”
“Alf. Smith was seldom so closely watched as he was Saturday night by the Wanderers. In spite of them he showed up to advantage and that he escaped with a whole scalp is due to his vigilance and clever guarding of that scalp with his own stick”
“Lee McCourt, with Smith to watch him, hadn’t much of a chance”
“Westwick and Smith were much as of yore fast and tricky, but each was rather off form in shooting and fell down the easy chances”
“Alf. Smith had a sorry time of it looking after Phillips. He simply couldn’t do it and if blamed for the defeat be attached to one individual more than another, certainly Smith had much to do with losing the game”
“Phillips was the most aggressive man on the team. He and Smith clashed time and time again, and there were many who thought the western captain had the better of the local man. But Smith had more than one man to watch”
Smith was not named to the fan-voted all-star team. If I’m reading it right, he received the third most votes (after Billy Gilmour and Blair Russell).
1906-
“Alf. Smith put in a hard night’s work, the heavy ice appearing to bother him”
““Westwick was as tricky as ever and had his opponents guessing with his serpentine dashes. The Smith brothers showed themselves dangerous shots, both having the knack of shooting from awkward positions at unexpected times”
“Among the front rank Alf. Smith and Westwick were the stars and won the match for their side”
“The Smith brothers did most of the work of the forwards, especially Alf, who was aggressive all through”
“The work of the Smiths was particularly brilliant, and the shooting of the younger brother of the highest order. He scored the majority of Ottawa’s goals after brilliant work or on a pass from A. Smith, the latter playing a hard tireless game and boring right in on the visitors’ defence regardless of the heavy checking of Strachan and Patrick”
“Alf. Smith, who. Perhaps, put up the best game of his career, broke away with one of his wonderful rushes…”
“For the Ottawas, Alf. Smith probably put up the best game for his side, although he did not become prominent until the second half opened. His work was telling perhaps when Ottawa was playing against extra men. He appeared to be wherever he wanted, following back fast and helping out the defence. He covered the whole ice helping out the centre and both wings. His brother was an able assistant, his shooting being one of the features of the play”
“Alf. Smith got away with one of his famous runs…”
“On the Ottawa side, the bright particular star was Alf. Smith, though his brother did some very spectacular work, yet he has not that wonderful initiative of Alf. and the faculty for making openings for others. To Alf. belongs the credit for almost every goal Harry scores, but it is a great deal to take advantage of opportunities”
“Alf. Smith was not at his best, and Mason watched him in a way that allowed him few opportunities”
“Blair Russell is poor on defensive tactics but his speed makes him dangerous in a rush. He was unable to cope with Alf Smith when the later started a rush”
“ Alf. Smith was to the fore, as usual, with his lightning dashes, and he awake the enthusiasm of the crowd on many occasions with his end to end rushes. He does not figure in the summary, but a large number of the goals were scored after he beat the Vics’ defence and passed out to his teammates”
“Russell did some nice work opposite Alf Smith, but Smith, like the other Ottawa forwards, checked so close and hard that Russell had few chances to work in his dangerous shot from the side. The score which he is credited with was made while Smith was resting with the timekeepers”
“Alf. Smith and Westwick were putting up the star games while Harry Smith did most of the scoring as usual”
“Once he [McGee] scored neatly from a timely pass by Alf. Smith than whom there is no more unselfish player”
“ Alf Smith again clearly proved his title to being the most unselfish forward playing the game,and it was apparently impossible to stop him when he started along the side”
1907-
“Alf Smith was the star of the Ottawas, and worked like a trojan all night. The Ottawas would have scored many more goals if he had got any kind of support. He would repeatedly beat the whole Quebec defence, only to find no one there to shoot. He was repeatedly cheered by the crowd”
“Alf Smith was the best of the four, his dodging, rushing and shooting being the features”
“Alf. Smith seems to improve with age”
“...Alf. Smith, who practically took upon his own shoulder the whole work of the line. He fought a hard, clean, consistent game all night and did more than any other member of the team to defeat Quebec”
“Alf. Smith was the star of the Capital quartette, he was the only one of the four successful in breaking through at all frequently and his shooting from the side was first class. His play, however, was marred by the fouls”
“Blachford held Alf Smith down as well as anyone could have done”
“Alf. Smith worked hard at times and got up and down the right wing fence once in a while like a cyclone. His shooting was also good when he worked”
“But Alf Smith was his cover and those who have seen Smith playing this year know just what that means for the man opposite him”
“Alf Smith again demonstrated that he is the peer of right wing men”
“Alf. Smith can’t be beaten”
“Alf Smith’s side-shots played havoc with Moran”
“Alf Smith and Westwick again covered themselves with glory”
“Alf. Smith gave the other three forwards some beautiful chances”
“The work of Alf. Smith is simply amazing. He plays the game like a whirlwind from the very start and seems just as strong when the gong sounds time up as when he started. The way he worked through the VIcs’ defence single-handed Saturday night was great to see, and his shooting was of the best.”
“For the Ottawas Alf. Smith played the best game, and he and Harry Smith worked in several two-men combinations which usually resulted in a score. Alf. worked like a trojan and would repeatedly make a beautiful rush down the ice to find no one there to assist him. Wanderers knew he was the most dangerous man on the ice and checked him closely”
“Alf. Smith’s work was nothing short of phenomenal as the time wore on, defeat staring his side in the face”
“Alf. Smith was the star of the losers, apparently, and the way he tore up and down his side was a revelation. Alf., it was, who started most of the Ottawa attacks; in fact he was the whole team for a while in the second half. His shooting was deadly, and every time he got within range, Alf. paused, took aim and shot like a bullett. He intercepted Wanderer passes twenty times or more when Wanderer scores seemed inevitable, and gave the other forwards beautiful chances. ‘Watch Alf. Smith’ was the cry of Capt. Patrick throughout, and Alf. certainly merited attention. “
“The end was that the Ottawa men were in that state during the closing minutes of the match of being played literally off their feet, even that human machine, Alf. Smith, was run down”
“Alf. Smith carried off Ottawa honors, the veteran player playing with all the vigor of a youngster, and until towards the end, when the pace was telling on him, played hockey all the time”
“Time and again did Smith carry hostilities into the camp of the opposing team in brilliant rushes with only Westwick at his side, while the much-tooted Tom Phillips and other members of the Thistles, apparently overcome by the stupendous calamity which might overtake them, in a losing game, practically stood still or labored like wooden men, almost invariably doing the wrong thing when a little bit of generalship would have save the situation and scored a goal”
“Smith and Westwick were the best pair on the ice, and without them Kenoras would have been swamped. Alf. probably never played a better game. His checking back was great and he kept up his wonderful work to the very end of the game, appearing fresh and strong while the others were gasping for wind”
“Phillips and Smith are the greatest wings in the game and Westwick is as good as any rover on skates; but three men cannot hold such a team as Wanderers at bay, and Kenora will have to get a better defence before they can hope to win the coveted silverware back again”
"Alf. Smith demonstrated his superiority over Phillips in every way"
"Alf Smith fooled the great and only Phillips, sometimes with ease..."
Originally posted in an ATD thread- “The story of Russell's desertion was told and retold and garnished with much detail of circumstance. It was said that Russell had been left off the team to meet Ottawa tonight, and that UNDRAFTED (who I don't think as ever actually been selected in the ATD [Cecil Blachford]) had been selected to play on the wing. The reason for this move was that it was considered that Ernie Russell had failed to hold down Smith in the now famous match in Ottawa. Alf. Smith will play on the wing tonight, so UNDRAFTED [Blachford] was selected for the position because of his general ability, and also for the reason that he is a stiff check and more likely to break a lance with the sturdy Smith boy.”
Smith was named at RW to an all star team published by the Ottawa Citizen (reportedly written by a “well-known Montreal newspaper man”
1908-
“ while on the wings two of the fastest men in the game- Alf Smith and Tom Phillips”
“Alf Smith’s work was the most effective of the Ottawa forwards”
“Alf. Smith was well held down by McDonald”
“Alf. Smith, despite the fact that he had no proactive all week, showed his old-time form and was instrumental in bringing about many of the [text error]”
“Alf. Smith did some great work while alone on the forward line”
“Old war horse Alf. Smith is playing as hard as ever”
“Alf. Smith was a disappointment after his Ottawa game”
“Alf Smith, as usual, held down right wing to King’s taste”
“Undoubtedly the individual stars of Saturday’s match were Alf. Smith and Harry Westwick. In the Victoria game two weeks ago, Smith was under the weather, but Saturday he appeared in all his old time form. It was he who started the scoring and it was he who checked back dozens of times, intercepting the puck when Quebec seemed bound to score. Smith had his cover, McDonald, played to a standstill, his stick-handling, skating, shooting and checking being far the best that the Ottawa captain has shown this year. Alf. was among the fastest on the ice”
“Jimmie Gardner may be one of the best left wings in the business, but Alf. Smith had him beaten to a standstill”
Smith was named at RW on the all-star team published by the Ottawa Free Press
“[n]icer forward combinations between Russell, Kirby, and Smith was never witnessed on the rink”
“Smith and Kirby were especially good in passing work”
“Russell and Smith were the particular stars, and they did a wonderful amount of work”
“Every one of the Ottawas played well. Smith and Russell probably outshine the others. Smith fairly toyed with Swift”
“Smith worked very hard at first and then seemed to tire. He was often shy of following into the corners, and did not come back after his man like the rest of the Ottawa forwards”
“Smith made an effort that will go down into hockey history as one of the bravest attempts of a hockey player”
“Smith was the bright star of the fourteen. He outshone all others and elicited great admiration. His playing was commented upon and praised by everybody”
1896-
“Smith kept up his reputation as a rough player and distinguished himself by hitting Stephens with his stick”
“Smith is, admittedly, the finest forward in Canada”
“Smith was certainly the star player on the ice, and made numerous grand rushes up the side, seeming to get through his opponents with the greatest of ease”
“Smith was conspicuous by the clean game he put up. He has apparently reformed, and worked hard and with good judgment”
“There can be little doubt that the best team won, although the game throughout was a toss up, and the unruly tempers of Smith and Young had considerable to do with their team’s defeat”
“Smith, acknowledged as the greatest of hockeyeists, was Ottawa’s weak man. He was checked closely, fumbled badly, and rendered little to no assistance to the defeated team. To many it was evident overtraining had told severely on his playing”
“On the Ottawa side, Smith was the weak spot. He had not been very well, which partly accounts for his failure. He did not follow up on his side at all, and when the puck was down about the Vic goal he was often laying off half way up the ice waiting for it to come out”
“There were two particulars in which the game was remarkable; first, the superb work of Smith and Russell for Ottawa, and, second, the marvellous play of Stocking, who stood between the flags for Quebec. The two former never before so distinguished themselves. They went through the opposing forward and defence lines as if these latter were mere tin soldiers. It was splendid to watch, and the onlookers were stirred to the very limit of exultation by their performances. As to Stocking, he is a wonder, verily, he hasa “heye like a ‘awk’. Had it not been for him the score would have been 20 to 0, instead of being as it was 4 to 0”.
“The Ottawa forwards played like clockwork, except that often when passes would have surely enabled a score, the rusher stuck to the puck too long and lost it. This was particularly the case with Smith”
“Smith was in excellent form also and at times looked like a regular cyclone. Although closely checked he shone throughout the match. Westwick and Kirby filled their posts valiantly and unlike Smith, they played a thoroughly unselfish combined game”
1897-
“Smith mostly played his old brilliant game, although hanging back from the corners as usual”
“Smith was the star of the Ottawas”
“after one of his great runs”
“Alf Smith tired considerably in the second half and did not do nearly the amount of work he usually does”
“Alf Smith’s play was very erratic. He made a number of good dashes but at other times he lagged when his presence in the very front was most essential to secure victory. He seemed over-trained.”
“Alf Smith played well until the ice became heavy. In the latter part of the game he was badly winded and was of very little service to the team”
“Alf Smith seemed in something like his old time shape, and his rushes were a feature of the game”
“In Ottawa Drinkwater played on Alf. Smith. With a weak cover Saturday night, Smith was able to do much better work than he did in the match here”
“Alfred Smith, who performed such splendid work in Montreal, and upon whom so much reliance is placed, was very erratic. While he made some fine rushes, and within a few minutes of the end worked most industriously, at times he gave evidence of being completely [exhausted]”
1904-
“Alf. Smith’s hockey was of the brilliant order, he playing his position consistently, notwithstanding that he had not fully recovered from injuries received in the second Stanley cup game”
“For the Ottawas the rushes of Westwick and Smith seemed irresistible, and time and again they went through the Victoria line”
“It took pretty determined rushes to get by Smith and McGee, and several of the Wanderer goals were scored on long shots that were more like flukes than anything else”
1905-
“On the right wing, though opposed to the redoubtable Smith, he [Liffiton] played a clean clever game”
“Alf. Smith was the best forward on the ice”
“Smith probably played the best game on the ice, with Liffiton a close second”
Smith was put into the side three times in succession, and while he continued without a grouch, it was apparent that the famous right wing had the bulk of his energy sapped by the fearful collisions with the wall”
“Sheriff and Marks were in the running all the time too, but McGee and Smith rather kept them under cover”
“Marks had Smith played to a standstill in the second half”
“Smith came in for a large share of enforced leisure alongside the timekeepers on account of his disregard for the rules of the game”
“Alf. Smith was seldom so closely watched as he was Saturday night by the Wanderers. In spite of them he showed up to advantage and that he escaped with a whole scalp is due to his vigilance and clever guarding of that scalp with his own stick”
“Lee McCourt, with Smith to watch him, hadn’t much of a chance”
“Westwick and Smith were much as of yore fast and tricky, but each was rather off form in shooting and fell down the easy chances”
“Alf. Smith had a sorry time of it looking after Phillips. He simply couldn’t do it and if blamed for the defeat be attached to one individual more than another, certainly Smith had much to do with losing the game”
“Phillips was the most aggressive man on the team. He and Smith clashed time and time again, and there were many who thought the western captain had the better of the local man. But Smith had more than one man to watch”
Smith was not named to the fan-voted all-star team. If I’m reading it right, he received the third most votes (after Billy Gilmour and Blair Russell).
1906-
“Alf. Smith put in a hard night’s work, the heavy ice appearing to bother him”
““Westwick was as tricky as ever and had his opponents guessing with his serpentine dashes. The Smith brothers showed themselves dangerous shots, both having the knack of shooting from awkward positions at unexpected times”
“Among the front rank Alf. Smith and Westwick were the stars and won the match for their side”
“The Smith brothers did most of the work of the forwards, especially Alf, who was aggressive all through”
“The work of the Smiths was particularly brilliant, and the shooting of the younger brother of the highest order. He scored the majority of Ottawa’s goals after brilliant work or on a pass from A. Smith, the latter playing a hard tireless game and boring right in on the visitors’ defence regardless of the heavy checking of Strachan and Patrick”
“Alf. Smith, who. Perhaps, put up the best game of his career, broke away with one of his wonderful rushes…”
“For the Ottawas, Alf. Smith probably put up the best game for his side, although he did not become prominent until the second half opened. His work was telling perhaps when Ottawa was playing against extra men. He appeared to be wherever he wanted, following back fast and helping out the defence. He covered the whole ice helping out the centre and both wings. His brother was an able assistant, his shooting being one of the features of the play”
“Alf. Smith got away with one of his famous runs…”
“On the Ottawa side, the bright particular star was Alf. Smith, though his brother did some very spectacular work, yet he has not that wonderful initiative of Alf. and the faculty for making openings for others. To Alf. belongs the credit for almost every goal Harry scores, but it is a great deal to take advantage of opportunities”
“Alf. Smith was not at his best, and Mason watched him in a way that allowed him few opportunities”
“Blair Russell is poor on defensive tactics but his speed makes him dangerous in a rush. He was unable to cope with Alf Smith when the later started a rush”
“ Alf. Smith was to the fore, as usual, with his lightning dashes, and he awake the enthusiasm of the crowd on many occasions with his end to end rushes. He does not figure in the summary, but a large number of the goals were scored after he beat the Vics’ defence and passed out to his teammates”
“Russell did some nice work opposite Alf Smith, but Smith, like the other Ottawa forwards, checked so close and hard that Russell had few chances to work in his dangerous shot from the side. The score which he is credited with was made while Smith was resting with the timekeepers”
“Alf. Smith and Westwick were putting up the star games while Harry Smith did most of the scoring as usual”
“Once he [McGee] scored neatly from a timely pass by Alf. Smith than whom there is no more unselfish player”
“ Alf Smith again clearly proved his title to being the most unselfish forward playing the game,and it was apparently impossible to stop him when he started along the side”
1907-
“Alf Smith was the star of the Ottawas, and worked like a trojan all night. The Ottawas would have scored many more goals if he had got any kind of support. He would repeatedly beat the whole Quebec defence, only to find no one there to shoot. He was repeatedly cheered by the crowd”
“Alf Smith was the best of the four, his dodging, rushing and shooting being the features”
“Alf. Smith seems to improve with age”
“...Alf. Smith, who practically took upon his own shoulder the whole work of the line. He fought a hard, clean, consistent game all night and did more than any other member of the team to defeat Quebec”
“Alf. Smith was the star of the Capital quartette, he was the only one of the four successful in breaking through at all frequently and his shooting from the side was first class. His play, however, was marred by the fouls”
“Blachford held Alf Smith down as well as anyone could have done”
“Alf. Smith worked hard at times and got up and down the right wing fence once in a while like a cyclone. His shooting was also good when he worked”
“But Alf Smith was his cover and those who have seen Smith playing this year know just what that means for the man opposite him”
“Alf Smith again demonstrated that he is the peer of right wing men”
“Alf. Smith can’t be beaten”
“Alf Smith’s side-shots played havoc with Moran”
“Alf Smith and Westwick again covered themselves with glory”
“Alf. Smith gave the other three forwards some beautiful chances”
“The work of Alf. Smith is simply amazing. He plays the game like a whirlwind from the very start and seems just as strong when the gong sounds time up as when he started. The way he worked through the VIcs’ defence single-handed Saturday night was great to see, and his shooting was of the best.”
“For the Ottawas Alf. Smith played the best game, and he and Harry Smith worked in several two-men combinations which usually resulted in a score. Alf. worked like a trojan and would repeatedly make a beautiful rush down the ice to find no one there to assist him. Wanderers knew he was the most dangerous man on the ice and checked him closely”
“Alf. Smith’s work was nothing short of phenomenal as the time wore on, defeat staring his side in the face”
“Alf. Smith was the star of the losers, apparently, and the way he tore up and down his side was a revelation. Alf., it was, who started most of the Ottawa attacks; in fact he was the whole team for a while in the second half. His shooting was deadly, and every time he got within range, Alf. paused, took aim and shot like a bullett. He intercepted Wanderer passes twenty times or more when Wanderer scores seemed inevitable, and gave the other forwards beautiful chances. ‘Watch Alf. Smith’ was the cry of Capt. Patrick throughout, and Alf. certainly merited attention. “
“The end was that the Ottawa men were in that state during the closing minutes of the match of being played literally off their feet, even that human machine, Alf. Smith, was run down”
“Alf. Smith carried off Ottawa honors, the veteran player playing with all the vigor of a youngster, and until towards the end, when the pace was telling on him, played hockey all the time”
“Time and again did Smith carry hostilities into the camp of the opposing team in brilliant rushes with only Westwick at his side, while the much-tooted Tom Phillips and other members of the Thistles, apparently overcome by the stupendous calamity which might overtake them, in a losing game, practically stood still or labored like wooden men, almost invariably doing the wrong thing when a little bit of generalship would have save the situation and scored a goal”
“Smith and Westwick were the best pair on the ice, and without them Kenoras would have been swamped. Alf. probably never played a better game. His checking back was great and he kept up his wonderful work to the very end of the game, appearing fresh and strong while the others were gasping for wind”
“Phillips and Smith are the greatest wings in the game and Westwick is as good as any rover on skates; but three men cannot hold such a team as Wanderers at bay, and Kenora will have to get a better defence before they can hope to win the coveted silverware back again”
"Alf. Smith demonstrated his superiority over Phillips in every way"
"Alf Smith fooled the great and only Phillips, sometimes with ease..."
Originally posted in an ATD thread- “The story of Russell's desertion was told and retold and garnished with much detail of circumstance. It was said that Russell had been left off the team to meet Ottawa tonight, and that UNDRAFTED (who I don't think as ever actually been selected in the ATD [Cecil Blachford]) had been selected to play on the wing. The reason for this move was that it was considered that Ernie Russell had failed to hold down Smith in the now famous match in Ottawa. Alf. Smith will play on the wing tonight, so UNDRAFTED [Blachford] was selected for the position because of his general ability, and also for the reason that he is a stiff check and more likely to break a lance with the sturdy Smith boy.”
Smith was named at RW to an all star team published by the Ottawa Citizen (reportedly written by a “well-known Montreal newspaper man”
1908-
“ while on the wings two of the fastest men in the game- Alf Smith and Tom Phillips”
“Alf Smith’s work was the most effective of the Ottawa forwards”
“Alf. Smith was well held down by McDonald”
“Alf. Smith, despite the fact that he had no proactive all week, showed his old-time form and was instrumental in bringing about many of the [text error]”
“Alf. Smith did some great work while alone on the forward line”
“Old war horse Alf. Smith is playing as hard as ever”
“Alf. Smith was a disappointment after his Ottawa game”
“Alf Smith, as usual, held down right wing to King’s taste”
“Undoubtedly the individual stars of Saturday’s match were Alf. Smith and Harry Westwick. In the Victoria game two weeks ago, Smith was under the weather, but Saturday he appeared in all his old time form. It was he who started the scoring and it was he who checked back dozens of times, intercepting the puck when Quebec seemed bound to score. Smith had his cover, McDonald, played to a standstill, his stick-handling, skating, shooting and checking being far the best that the Ottawa captain has shown this year. Alf. was among the fastest on the ice”
“Jimmie Gardner may be one of the best left wings in the business, but Alf. Smith had him beaten to a standstill”
Smith was named at RW on the all-star team published by the Ottawa Free Press
Note- @seventieslord posted the VsX scores, and I think it is important to note that Smith is likely undervalued by that measurement due to him being a strong playmaker.
Paddy Moran quotes-
1902-
“No men on either team, however, played more brilliantly than the two goalers. Moran in particular distinguishing himself”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal did some most phenomenal stopping and the game was mostly won by him and Quebec’s defence”
“Moran, the goalkeeper of the easterners, was invincible, and stopped shot after shot in rapid succession”
“Moran in the poles was a tower of strength, stopping shots that seemed almost impossible”
“Moran did a lot of slashing with his stick and had to be ruled off several times- a thing that is no usually the case with goal tends”
“only the phenomenal stopping of Moran prevented the rubber being netted”
1903-
“But their weak point was in the defence, although Moran, in goals, stopped a large number of dangerous shots, but could not be expected to do all the work alone”
“... and the one reason for the score not being larger than it was, was on account of Moran’s great stopping”
“Moran, who is now the captain of the team and still plays the position in goals, stopped some hard looking shots”
“They have a star goal man in Moran and Power, who was tried out on Saturday at cover, made good”
“Moran in goals stopped phenomenally”
“Both goal-keepers stopped splendidly, Moran having a great many more stops to make than Nicholson”
“Moran put up a fine game and made several phenomenal stops”
“Moran the Quebec goal man deserves credit for several brilliant plays. He stopped a great many shots at close quarters which would have run up the score very much higher”
“The Quebec, with the exception of Moran, the goalkeeper, were outclassed. Their point and cover point were not able to cope and with the rushes of the Gilmours, McGee and Westwick, and Moran was afforded but little protection. He was the magnet for swift shots dozens of times, but he cleared the nets coolly and deftly, and though the puck went by him ten times, the wonder was that the Ottawa score was not double what it was”
“Moran, in the nets, also played his usual game, stopping time and again shots which looked like sure games”
“... it was the excellent work of Moran in the poles that saved Quebec from having more tallies against them. The Quebec goaler proved himself to be in the top notchers and the Vic forwards gave him plenty of work to do”
“Moran, in the flags, bore the brunt of many an attack, and came out of them with honors”
1904-
“Moran, for Quebec, was unsurpassable and was well supported”
“Their [Quebec’s] defence is not so strong, although Moran in the ents stopped some hard shot and worked hard to relieve the pressure, which at times was strong”
“At time they poured in shots on Quebecs goal which looked like sure games, but Moran did some wonderful stopping, and incidentally he was principally responsible for Quebecs victory”
“... but the Quebec defence, especially Moran in goal, effectively squelched their aspirations”
“Moran was in good form and blocked away volleys of stiff ones that managed to elude the watchful outposts, and his really wonderful work evoked generous applause on many occasions”
“P.J. Moran has played goal for the Quebec Lacrosse Club, the old Dominion Hockey Club, and the Crescent Hockey Club. He succeeded in stopping in the goals of the Quebec Club and is regarded as the best goal keeper of the day in Canada”
1905-
“Jordan played the most brilliant game of the forward line, while Moran, in goal, and Hogan at cover were the particular stars of the team”
“The story of the game is best told when it is said that Paddy Moran distinguished himself in Saturday night’s contest”
“The Quebec goal keeper, Moran, is a good one, but there were numbers of shots made by the Shamrocks which he never was obliged to ward off”
“[o]nly Moran’s good work saved his team”
“Moran, as usual, showed himself a king of goal minders”
“It was regrettable that Moran was the central figure in the incident, as Paddy never showed a clearer claim to the title of premier goal-minder than he did Saturday night. His work was phenomenal throughout and he ranked as individually the most prominent man on the ice. In condemning his slashing of Gilbert, it must be remembered that the Vic line is the most aggressive in the game”
“Frye in goals has played on all three Victoria teams, this being his first year in senior ranks. He has shown improved form each season and promises to rival Paddy Moran before he quits the game”
Moran was the “almost unanimous choice” for best goaltender in the East in 1905, according to a newspaper write-in All Star team.
He was also named to another 1905 team-
“For the thankless position of goalkeeper we have elected Mr. Moran, of Quebec, with his big shin-pads. These have stopped many a goal, but Moran is not particular whether he uses them or not. He frequently projects his face in the way of the puck, anything to stop it.”
1906-
“Moran showed his class by some great stops from every angle of the ice”
“He is the Moran of old, but did not get the same support that came the way of Hague”
“Few games pass in which Moran is goaltend and Bowie forward without a mix-up of some sort between the two. Moran wants no one to bother him in the nets, and Bowie accepts all chances and goes in to score when the opportunity offers”
“Moran’s work between the posts for the visitors went far towards preventing the VIctoria forward line from running up an almost uncountable tally during the first ten minutes of play. He is quick as lightning and handles himself with the agility of a cat”
“He [Moran] was always in the way, and played one of the most remarkable goal-keeper games witnessed in Montreal for a long time”
“had it not been for Moran’s remarkable playing, they doubtless would have made the score much larger”
“Moran, in goals, was every much excited and shouted out valuable hints on how to play the game at the top of his voice”
“Moran, Quebec’s goal tend, did magnificent work in the first fifteen minutes”
“Mr. Pat Moran is an excitable young person but nevertheless he is one of the neatest goal tends in the business”
“Moran did but mediocre work at goal”
“Moran has often done better than he did on Saturday”
“The rusky Quebec goal tend [Moran] had to stop pucks with every bit of his anatomy, and on three occasion had to resort to tricks to save his nets. Once he carried out the rubber folded in his arms, once a timely fall was advantageous, and on the third occasion a quick poke into the midst of a group of struggling players proved useful”
“Shamrocks came near tallying from a mix-up in front of Moran’s citadel, but the wily Quebec goalkeeper was too quick”
“while Moran, as in the Wanderer game, was off color”
“Moran, in the congenial atmosphere of the Arena, was at his best, and stopped in fine style. In this respect Brophy was not far behind”
“Moran had an off night, and was beaten out by three easy ones. Moran’s best performances this year have been away from home”
“Moran was in form equal to his other appearances at the arena this year, and that is at the best in the goalkeeper’s line”
“Moran was again disappointing in goals, and wound up a rather disastrous season on local ice by allowing most of the shots of the first half to go by him. His work improved in the second period, but he was evidently bothered by the poor lighting of the Quebec rink”
1907-
“The defence outside of Moran in goal is the weak spot on the team. Moran is a dandy and made some beautiful stops”
“Paddy Moran, their goalkeeper, again proved himself as good as gold, getting applause, even from the warmest Ottawa supporters. Blair and Power seemed to place explicit confidence in Moran, for they separated whenever an Ottawa man rushed, allowing him to shoot”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal gave an exhibition which was little if anything behind that of Lesueur, while Blair and Joe Power made up a fairly strong defence”
“Moran, in the Quebec flags, was a wonder”
“Moran’s work in goals was a mixture of good and bad”
“... Moran in goals, who had shot after shot rained in upon him and did some excellent work”
“Moran, in Quebec goal, made himself unpopular among Shamrock supporters by the tactics used at times when his goal was menaced, of rushing out and charging the advancing Shamrock”
“Alf Smith’s side-shots played havoc with Moran”
1908-
“Moran in the nests for Quebec put up a wonderful game and stopped many hard drives that looked good to score. The Ottawas’ defeat was due in no small measure to his efforts”
“Paddy Moran, who has often been picked as the most useful goalkeeper in Eastern Canada, was in the nets for Quebec”
“Moran, the Quebec goal tend, is the individual whom Ottawa may thank more than any other for their defeat. It is safe to say that his exhibition of last evening was little short of marvellous, and by ar the greatest of his career”
“Moran once more proved himself a peerless goal tend, and never played better”
“Scoring a dozen games against the Quebec defence, particularly Paddy Moran, who is almost impregnable against a shot at fair range, is a big feet and the Vics only rolled up a large score by taking the rubber disc right to the mouth of the cage”
“Pat Moran clinched his claim to the title ‘King of Goalkeeps’”
“Mr. P. Moran, Quebec’s sturdy goalkeeper, was there with the goods, according to his time-worn custom”
“If no other part of his anatomy happens to be available during a crisis, Mr. Moran does not hesitate to stop the puck with his eyebrows”
“Of the Ancient Capital team, Paddy Moran, the goal-keeper, was the top-liner. Moran’s work in the nets characterized him as the best visiting net-guardian seen here this season. He was cool, even in the most exciting moments and the stops which he pulled off with his gloves, chest, pads and stick were nothing short of marvelous”
“Individually, by far the cleverest man of the fourteen was ‘Paddy’ Moran, the man before the twine for Quebec. The exhibition of goal keeping which he gave has never been surpassed or equalled anywhere else”
“Only Moran’s great work prevented him from figuring more largely in the scoring”
Moran was named to both the all-star team voted by fans and the all star team published by the Ottawa Free Press-
“Paddy Moran, of Quebec, has a mortage on the net position. He is known as an aggressive goalkeeper, somewhat of a misnomer for a man in that position. Very few forwards will venture close to Moran, and it is only at the most hand-to-hand quarters he can be scored upon. Billy Nicholson, of Shamrocks, is the nearest approach to Moran”
“While Quebec won, Shamrocks as a matter of fact seemed to be having the better of the play but for one thing, Moran, who was at the top of his form and gave a dazzling display of goal tending”
“Pat Moran was in his full glory, and the big fellow stopped them at such a rate that it looked as if many of them were blocked with his eyes shut, they came so fast and accurate”
“Moran had less to do than Hern and did not star as he did Thursday, but the defeat was not to be laid at his door, as he was beaten out only when saves were almost impossible”
“Moran had less to do than in the Shamrock game and was outstarred by Hern, who was in top form”
“It was entirely thanks to Paddy Moran in the first part of the match that Montreal did not score oftener”
“P. Moran was among those present, and as usual, he made a noise like a stone wall in front of the nets”
“Even Moran had rather a night off”
“Moran did some brilliant work in the poles”
“No men on either team, however, played more brilliantly than the two goalers. Moran in particular distinguishing himself”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal did some most phenomenal stopping and the game was mostly won by him and Quebec’s defence”
“Moran, the goalkeeper of the easterners, was invincible, and stopped shot after shot in rapid succession”
“Moran in the poles was a tower of strength, stopping shots that seemed almost impossible”
“Moran did a lot of slashing with his stick and had to be ruled off several times- a thing that is no usually the case with goal tends”
“only the phenomenal stopping of Moran prevented the rubber being netted”
1903-
“But their weak point was in the defence, although Moran, in goals, stopped a large number of dangerous shots, but could not be expected to do all the work alone”
“... and the one reason for the score not being larger than it was, was on account of Moran’s great stopping”
“Moran, who is now the captain of the team and still plays the position in goals, stopped some hard looking shots”
“They have a star goal man in Moran and Power, who was tried out on Saturday at cover, made good”
“Moran in goals stopped phenomenally”
“Both goal-keepers stopped splendidly, Moran having a great many more stops to make than Nicholson”
“Moran put up a fine game and made several phenomenal stops”
“Moran the Quebec goal man deserves credit for several brilliant plays. He stopped a great many shots at close quarters which would have run up the score very much higher”
“The Quebec, with the exception of Moran, the goalkeeper, were outclassed. Their point and cover point were not able to cope and with the rushes of the Gilmours, McGee and Westwick, and Moran was afforded but little protection. He was the magnet for swift shots dozens of times, but he cleared the nets coolly and deftly, and though the puck went by him ten times, the wonder was that the Ottawa score was not double what it was”
“Moran, in the nets, also played his usual game, stopping time and again shots which looked like sure games”
“... it was the excellent work of Moran in the poles that saved Quebec from having more tallies against them. The Quebec goaler proved himself to be in the top notchers and the Vic forwards gave him plenty of work to do”
“Moran, in the flags, bore the brunt of many an attack, and came out of them with honors”
1904-
“Moran, for Quebec, was unsurpassable and was well supported”
“Their [Quebec’s] defence is not so strong, although Moran in the ents stopped some hard shot and worked hard to relieve the pressure, which at times was strong”
“At time they poured in shots on Quebecs goal which looked like sure games, but Moran did some wonderful stopping, and incidentally he was principally responsible for Quebecs victory”
“... but the Quebec defence, especially Moran in goal, effectively squelched their aspirations”
“Moran was in good form and blocked away volleys of stiff ones that managed to elude the watchful outposts, and his really wonderful work evoked generous applause on many occasions”
“P.J. Moran has played goal for the Quebec Lacrosse Club, the old Dominion Hockey Club, and the Crescent Hockey Club. He succeeded in stopping in the goals of the Quebec Club and is regarded as the best goal keeper of the day in Canada”
1905-
“Jordan played the most brilliant game of the forward line, while Moran, in goal, and Hogan at cover were the particular stars of the team”
“The story of the game is best told when it is said that Paddy Moran distinguished himself in Saturday night’s contest”
“The Quebec goal keeper, Moran, is a good one, but there were numbers of shots made by the Shamrocks which he never was obliged to ward off”
“[o]nly Moran’s good work saved his team”
“Moran, as usual, showed himself a king of goal minders”
“It was regrettable that Moran was the central figure in the incident, as Paddy never showed a clearer claim to the title of premier goal-minder than he did Saturday night. His work was phenomenal throughout and he ranked as individually the most prominent man on the ice. In condemning his slashing of Gilbert, it must be remembered that the Vic line is the most aggressive in the game”
“Frye in goals has played on all three Victoria teams, this being his first year in senior ranks. He has shown improved form each season and promises to rival Paddy Moran before he quits the game”
Moran was the “almost unanimous choice” for best goaltender in the East in 1905, according to a newspaper write-in All Star team.
He was also named to another 1905 team-
“For the thankless position of goalkeeper we have elected Mr. Moran, of Quebec, with his big shin-pads. These have stopped many a goal, but Moran is not particular whether he uses them or not. He frequently projects his face in the way of the puck, anything to stop it.”
1906-
“Moran showed his class by some great stops from every angle of the ice”
“He is the Moran of old, but did not get the same support that came the way of Hague”
“Few games pass in which Moran is goaltend and Bowie forward without a mix-up of some sort between the two. Moran wants no one to bother him in the nets, and Bowie accepts all chances and goes in to score when the opportunity offers”
“Moran’s work between the posts for the visitors went far towards preventing the VIctoria forward line from running up an almost uncountable tally during the first ten minutes of play. He is quick as lightning and handles himself with the agility of a cat”
“He [Moran] was always in the way, and played one of the most remarkable goal-keeper games witnessed in Montreal for a long time”
“had it not been for Moran’s remarkable playing, they doubtless would have made the score much larger”
“Moran, in goals, was every much excited and shouted out valuable hints on how to play the game at the top of his voice”
“Moran, Quebec’s goal tend, did magnificent work in the first fifteen minutes”
“Mr. Pat Moran is an excitable young person but nevertheless he is one of the neatest goal tends in the business”
“Moran did but mediocre work at goal”
“Moran has often done better than he did on Saturday”
“The rusky Quebec goal tend [Moran] had to stop pucks with every bit of his anatomy, and on three occasion had to resort to tricks to save his nets. Once he carried out the rubber folded in his arms, once a timely fall was advantageous, and on the third occasion a quick poke into the midst of a group of struggling players proved useful”
“Shamrocks came near tallying from a mix-up in front of Moran’s citadel, but the wily Quebec goalkeeper was too quick”
“while Moran, as in the Wanderer game, was off color”
“Moran, in the congenial atmosphere of the Arena, was at his best, and stopped in fine style. In this respect Brophy was not far behind”
“Moran had an off night, and was beaten out by three easy ones. Moran’s best performances this year have been away from home”
“Moran was in form equal to his other appearances at the arena this year, and that is at the best in the goalkeeper’s line”
“Moran was again disappointing in goals, and wound up a rather disastrous season on local ice by allowing most of the shots of the first half to go by him. His work improved in the second period, but he was evidently bothered by the poor lighting of the Quebec rink”
1907-
“The defence outside of Moran in goal is the weak spot on the team. Moran is a dandy and made some beautiful stops”
“Paddy Moran, their goalkeeper, again proved himself as good as gold, getting applause, even from the warmest Ottawa supporters. Blair and Power seemed to place explicit confidence in Moran, for they separated whenever an Ottawa man rushed, allowing him to shoot”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal gave an exhibition which was little if anything behind that of Lesueur, while Blair and Joe Power made up a fairly strong defence”
“Moran, in the Quebec flags, was a wonder”
“Moran’s work in goals was a mixture of good and bad”
“... Moran in goals, who had shot after shot rained in upon him and did some excellent work”
“Moran, in Quebec goal, made himself unpopular among Shamrock supporters by the tactics used at times when his goal was menaced, of rushing out and charging the advancing Shamrock”
“Alf Smith’s side-shots played havoc with Moran”
1908-
“Moran in the nests for Quebec put up a wonderful game and stopped many hard drives that looked good to score. The Ottawas’ defeat was due in no small measure to his efforts”
“Paddy Moran, who has often been picked as the most useful goalkeeper in Eastern Canada, was in the nets for Quebec”
“Moran, the Quebec goal tend, is the individual whom Ottawa may thank more than any other for their defeat. It is safe to say that his exhibition of last evening was little short of marvellous, and by ar the greatest of his career”
“Moran once more proved himself a peerless goal tend, and never played better”
“Scoring a dozen games against the Quebec defence, particularly Paddy Moran, who is almost impregnable against a shot at fair range, is a big feet and the Vics only rolled up a large score by taking the rubber disc right to the mouth of the cage”
“Pat Moran clinched his claim to the title ‘King of Goalkeeps’”
“Mr. P. Moran, Quebec’s sturdy goalkeeper, was there with the goods, according to his time-worn custom”
“If no other part of his anatomy happens to be available during a crisis, Mr. Moran does not hesitate to stop the puck with his eyebrows”
“Of the Ancient Capital team, Paddy Moran, the goal-keeper, was the top-liner. Moran’s work in the nets characterized him as the best visiting net-guardian seen here this season. He was cool, even in the most exciting moments and the stops which he pulled off with his gloves, chest, pads and stick were nothing short of marvelous”
“Individually, by far the cleverest man of the fourteen was ‘Paddy’ Moran, the man before the twine for Quebec. The exhibition of goal keeping which he gave has never been surpassed or equalled anywhere else”
“Only Moran’s great work prevented him from figuring more largely in the scoring”
Moran was named to both the all-star team voted by fans and the all star team published by the Ottawa Free Press-
“Paddy Moran, of Quebec, has a mortage on the net position. He is known as an aggressive goalkeeper, somewhat of a misnomer for a man in that position. Very few forwards will venture close to Moran, and it is only at the most hand-to-hand quarters he can be scored upon. Billy Nicholson, of Shamrocks, is the nearest approach to Moran”
“While Quebec won, Shamrocks as a matter of fact seemed to be having the better of the play but for one thing, Moran, who was at the top of his form and gave a dazzling display of goal tending”
“Pat Moran was in his full glory, and the big fellow stopped them at such a rate that it looked as if many of them were blocked with his eyes shut, they came so fast and accurate”
“Moran had less to do than Hern and did not star as he did Thursday, but the defeat was not to be laid at his door, as he was beaten out only when saves were almost impossible”
“Moran had less to do than in the Shamrock game and was outstarred by Hern, who was in top form”
“It was entirely thanks to Paddy Moran in the first part of the match that Montreal did not score oftener”
“P. Moran was among those present, and as usual, he made a noise like a stone wall in front of the nets”
“Even Moran had rather a night off”
“Moran did some brilliant work in the poles”
Absolutely. I alluded to it above, but Smith's numbers, in addition to what you pointed out, are also harmed by him being more of an assist guy- we have the anecdotal evidence (“Alf Smith again clearly proved his title to being the most unselfish forward playing the game") and in the reconstructed stats tables, where he led the ECAHA in assists in 1907 with 15 (next closest was Bowie with 11) and 1906 with 14 (next highest was Bowie with 6), and tying for the lead in 1908 with Phillips (12 each). He also led the FAHL in assists in 1905 with 8 (Westwick came a close second with 7).
Ottawa HC withdrew from the CAHL after 4 games because the league was trying to force them to replay a game.
I'd throw Moran in the list of players who were dominant in their prime (I'm disappointed we didn''t get to do a real LeSueur vs. Moran discussion).
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I had these six players predominantly ranked higher on my round 1 list than the last six we added to the discussion, and I feel even more strongly about that now.
Bain and Smith..... Easily in
Young.... Deserves serious consideration
Moran... Should be strongly considered
Walsh.... Probably better than russell but it's early for both of them
Morris and Tommy Smith... In the mix, surely ahead of Dunderdale and Roberts
Duncan and Patrick.... Not till Simpson and Gardiner get in
Walker, Hall, Noble..... In the mix, need to get sorted out
Broadbent.... Seems to be the lesser of the above 3, at least
I think for the first time I'll have players ranked lower this round then I did last round. My 1, 4, 6, 9, 10 are still around and none of them is a sure bet to place as high.
I think I want to rank at least 11 players, at first glance.
Bain and Smith..... Easily in
Young.... Deserves serious consideration
Moran... Should be strongly considered
Walsh.... Probably better than russell but it's early for both of them
Morris and Tommy Smith... In the mix, surely ahead of Dunderdale and Roberts
Duncan and Patrick.... Not till Simpson and Gardiner get in
Walker, Hall, Noble..... In the mix, need to get sorted out
Broadbent.... Seems to be the lesser of the above 3, at least
I think for the first time I'll have players ranked lower this round then I did last round. My 1, 4, 6, 9, 10 are still around and none of them is a sure bet to place as high.
I think I want to rank at least 11 players, at first glance.
I got you-
A Case for Weldy Young
Weldy Young was, in my opinion, hockey’s second superstar (after Jack Campbell). As the selection of quotes I published earlier shows, Young’s play was applauded in all aspects of the game; he was a force offensively, defensively, and physically. It is Young, not Pulford, who was the primary object of praise on those 1890s Ottawa teams. By 1893 he was being called “the best cover-point in Canada”, a reputation he seemed to have maintained until at least 1897 (“‘Mike’ Grant showed that he is almost the equal of ‘Weldy’ Young at cover-point”), at least in the eyes of some.
Since we have already voted in Grant, I think we could take a quick comparison for the years they overlapped (1894-1899, which is a pretty decent sample size). For the purpose of this exercise, I’m using my reconstructed scoring tables. For goals with conflicting reports of who scored them, I’m awarding a half goal for the player, unless I’ve listed that as a ‘maybe X; that means that the player was credited for either the goal or the assist on the same goal. They certainly got a point, we just don’t know which category to put it under. In those situations, I’m listing them as just a point (so the goals + assists may not equal the total points).
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Weldy Young[/TD]
[TD][TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE][/TD]
[TD][TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE][/TD]
[TD][TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mike Grant[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Games[/TD]
[TD]Goals[/TD]
[TD]Assists[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Games[/TD]
[TD]Goals[/TD]
[TD]Assists[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1894[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1894[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1895[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]1895[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1896[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1896[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1897[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1897[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1898[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1898[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1899[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1899[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD]47[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD]47[/TD]
[TD]8.5[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]15.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Grant has an edge in scoring, but Young has over twice as many assists as Grant. Things look even better for Young/worse for Grant when you look at team offense and where each player stacks up (not counting split points for this one, as I’m running out of time)-
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Weldy Young[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mike Grant[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Team Goals Scored[/TD]
[TD]Scoring Rank on Team[/TD]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Team Goals Scored[/TD]
[TD]Scoring Rank Team[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1894[/TD]
[TD]22 or 24[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1894[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]9 (Tied)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1895[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]3 (Tied)[/TD]
[TD]1895[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1896[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]5 (Tied)[/TD]
[TD]1896[/TD]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1897[/TD]
[TD]25 or 26[/TD]
[TD]4 (Tied)[/TD]
[TD]1897[/TD]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1898[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]1898[/TD]
[TD]53[/TD]
[TD]5 (Tied)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1899[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]3 (Tied)[/TD]
[TD]1899[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]6 (Tied)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Those Montreal Victoria teams were a juggernaut offensively, routinely leading the league in goals scored. And while Grant was likely much more a contributor offensively than this list shows (assists were not tracked often, so relying on incomplete play-by-plays and game summaries means we are going to be missing data), Young comes away looking far more important offensively to his teams.
It should be noted that, in addition to assists being exceedingly hard to piece together, the 1880s and 1890s have a lot of unknown goal scorers, situations where I have (so far) been unable to determine who actually put the puck between the poles. Over the timespan in question, the Victorias had 42 goals with an unknown goal scorer, while Ottawa had just 5. I think an intellectually honest way to go about taking this fact into account would be to estimate that each player would produce roughly the same percentage of their teams’ offense as they did for the goals we a have better visibility on, but I’ll let someone with a better grasp of stats and math run with that if they so choose.
Defense is harder to quantify, but each team had the better goals allowed 3 times over these six years-
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Weldy Young[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mike Grant[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Team Goals Allowed[/TD]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Team Goals Allowed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1894[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]1894[/TD]
[TD]19 or 20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1895[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]1895[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1896[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]1896[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1897[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]1897[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1898[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]1898[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1899[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]1899[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
I’m not sure how much that says, though, since this is definitely a team stat. Based on the comments in the newspaper reports, I’d say Young was the better defensive player, but, again, that’s only my opinion.
Neither player did anything for their legacy after 1899- Weldy Young went west for non-hockey reasons (though he played hockey out there), while Mike Grant spent another few years in the CAHL, not really doing anything of note. 1900 saw the rise of Hod Stuart (although he played some forward early on), Dick Boon, and Frank Wall battling for the title of dominant coverpoint in the CAHL.
Using your post as a springboard- can anyone/someone offer up a good case for Gardiner? He's been up for a couple of rounds now, so several people must have had him relatively high up in their preliminary rankings, but I'm still looking for more information (despite having read the ATD bios). His resume still looks weak to me.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I mean, we're already 30 players in, and there's still a guy left who was deemed, at least for one season, the most valuable player in hockey. Not just in one small league, but in THE league. And we can explain that away to some extent by saying that voting for that trophy was really favorable to defensemen at the time, and that's true, but who else is left that was potential League MVP caliber? What about best at their position at least? There are a handful of those at least. How long did they maintain that? Gardiner wasn't just a flash in the pan either, if I'm not mistaken he backed up that hart trophy with a few other seasons where he earned recognition in the GM all-star voting, and was a wchl All-Star a couple times. (Wasn't he?)
Simpson had much better star power and name recognition in the wchl, but he has nothing for offensive numbers in the NHL, and that's supposed to be what he was known for, and his award recognition at the NHL level was basically NIL.
Last edited:
Scroll back to last week's thread when I posted an extensive bio on Gardiner.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
The case for Young is really strong.
We're at a point now where we are pretty limited in terms of players who were ever in conversation for best player of their era. Young, Alf Smith, and Bain are the only ones (?) who arguably hit that, or even really approached it.
Moran's longevity for his birth year, including some years being arguably the best goalie around, is a very big plus.
We're at a point now where we are pretty limited in terms of players who were ever in conversation for best player of their era. Young, Alf Smith, and Bain are the only ones (?) who arguably hit that, or even really approached it.
Moran's longevity for his birth year, including some years being arguably the best goalie around, is a very big plus.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Young, Smith and Bain are looking like they are going to be my top 3.
I'm just really, really impressed with Alf Smith. Is there a single thing NOT to like about him?
Star power. Peak. Longevity. He's older so one would use his generation as a question mark but he played right into the next couple of generations and excelled. Goal scoring. Playmaking. Defense. Physicality. Leadership. Winning. Played in a lot of very big games. Offensive numbers look decent enough for this round before you consider that he had a higher proportion of assists, and missed essentially 7 opportunities to compile numbers from age 24-30.
How's he not #1 this round?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
just trying to sort the names out...
Bain/A.Smith/Young (likely top-3)
Simpson/T.Smith/Morris/Moran/Noble/Walker (in the mix for the rest, really tough to sort out)
Gardiner/Hall (one of these 10th, the other, potentially odd man out for me)
Walsh (at least has an edge on Russell)
Broadbent (loses comparisons to Noble/Walker)
Dunderdale (compares too poorly to T.Smith/Morris)
Duncan (nothing against him except field is crowded and he has to wait his turn)
Roberts (does not even compare well to Dunderdale, who's outside the top-10)
Russell (does not even compare well to Walsh, who's outside the top 10)
Bain/A.Smith/Young (likely top-3)
Simpson/T.Smith/Morris/Moran/Noble/Walker (in the mix for the rest, really tough to sort out)
Gardiner/Hall (one of these 10th, the other, potentially odd man out for me)
Walsh (at least has an edge on Russell)
Broadbent (loses comparisons to Noble/Walker)
Dunderdale (compares too poorly to T.Smith/Morris)
Duncan (nothing against him except field is crowded and he has to wait his turn)
Roberts (does not even compare well to Dunderdale, who's outside the top-10)
Russell (does not even compare well to Walsh, who's outside the top 10)
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I have the same top 3, with Simpson and Moran rounding out my top 5.
Tommy Smith and Walker jump out for me too. The more I read on Walker the more I'm impressed with his defensive reputation.
Tommy Smith and Walker jump out for me too. The more I read on Walker the more I'm impressed with his defensive reputation.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I actually like Gordon Roberts quite a bit amongst this group
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[TD]VsT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912-1913Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1915-1916Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1917-1918Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
He has a pretty decent run from 1914-1917 leading his team in scoring every season and just barely losing the scoring title to Morris in 1917 by a single point after playing one less game. I think Morris was better offensively but Roberts belongs amongst this group.
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Vlookup Phrase[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[TD]VsT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1906-1907Canadian Soo Algonquins[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]4.89%[/TD]
[TD]14.06%[/TD]
[TD]14.06%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1907-1908Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]29.13%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]21.35%[/TD]
[TD]59.38%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]27.27%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9.68%[/TD]
[TD]30.00%[/TD]
[TD]30.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Marty Walsh looks pretty good by this type of analysis, scoring leader on a strong team during his prime.
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[TD]VsT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]
12
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
34
[/TD][TD]
14.61%
[/TD][TD]
40.63%
[/TD][TD]
68.42%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
16
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]
[TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
1.00%
[/TD][TD]
2.38%
[/TD][TD]
4.76%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
18
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
16
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
17
[/TD][TD]
28
[/TD][TD]
15.60%
[/TD][TD]
42.50%
[/TD][TD]
54.84%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912-1913Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
20
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
16
[/TD][TD]
17
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
19
[/TD][TD]
22
[/TD][TD]
16.96%
[/TD][TD]
39.58%
[/TD][TD]
63.33%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
20
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
20
[/TD][TD]
31
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
44
[/TD][TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
26.99%
[/TD][TD]
97.78%
[/TD][TD]
100.00%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
20
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
19
[/TD][TD]
29
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
34
[/TD][TD]
74
[/TD][TD]
20.36%
[/TD][TD]
100.00%
[/TD][TD]
100.00%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1915-1916Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]
24
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
21
[/TD][TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
25
[/TD][TD]
64
[/TD][TD]
21.01%
[/TD][TD]
64.10%
[/TD][TD]
100.00%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]
23
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
23
[/TD][TD]
43
[/TD][TD]
10
[/TD][TD]
53
[/TD][TD]
42
[/TD][TD]
25.00%
[/TD][TD]
98.15%
[/TD][TD]
100.00%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1917-1918Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]
[TD]
18
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
20
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
23
[/TD][TD]
24
[/TD][TD]
20.35%
[/TD][TD]
53.49%
[/TD][TD]
76.67%
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]
22
[/TD][TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]
22
[/TD][TD]
16
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
19
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
16.81%
[/TD][TD]
57.58%
[/TD][TD]
79.17%
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
He has a pretty decent run from 1914-1917 leading his team in scoring every season and just barely losing the scoring title to Morris in 1917 by a single point after playing one less game. I think Morris was better offensively but Roberts belongs amongst this group.
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Vlookup Phrase[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[TD]VsT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1906-1907Canadian Soo Algonquins[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]4.89%[/TD]
[TD]14.06%[/TD]
[TD]14.06%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1907-1908Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]29.13%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]21.35%[/TD]
[TD]59.38%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]27.27%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[TD]100.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9.68%[/TD]
[TD]30.00%[/TD]
[TD]30.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Marty Walsh looks pretty good by this type of analysis, scoring leader on a strong team during his prime.
Last edited:
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
When I picked Russell in the ATD @rmartin65 in PM opined that Walsh was a better transitional star between Bowie-Taylor than Russell. I'm really curious if you could expand more (and if I missed it just say so and I'll hunt it down). Russell has more high level seasons at the top level of hockey despite only being one year older than Walsh.
Walsh led his league in scoring twice to Russell's once but Russell was tantalizingly close in 1907.
They both won multiple cups on dynasties in the early 1900s
Russell shouldered much more of the offensive load for the Wanderers than Walsh did for the Senators as shown below in the table sorted by OC% (reminder this is is Points/Team Goals For)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1906-1907[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]46[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]36.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]35.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1907-1908[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]29.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]27.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1905-1906[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]25.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1907-1908[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]25.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]47[/TD]
[TD]22.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1904-1905[/TD]
[TD]Montreal AAA[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]21.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]21.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]56[/TD]
[TD]20.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912-1913[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]7.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1906-1907[/TD]
[TD]Canadian Soo Algonquins[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]4.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]3.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Is it an "eye test" from the newspaper scans?
Walsh led his league in scoring twice to Russell's once but Russell was tantalizingly close in 1907.
They both won multiple cups on dynasties in the early 1900s
Russell shouldered much more of the offensive load for the Wanderers than Walsh did for the Senators as shown below in the table sorted by OC% (reminder this is is Points/Team Goals For)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1906-1907[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]46[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]36.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]35.2%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1907-1908[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]29.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]42[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]27.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1905-1906[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]25.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1907-1908[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]25.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]47[/TD]
[TD]22.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1904-1905[/TD]
[TD]Montreal AAA[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]21.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]44[/TD]
[TD]21.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]56[/TD]
[TD]20.0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912-1913[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]7.1%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1906-1907[/TD]
[TD]Canadian Soo Algonquins[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]4.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Russell[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]3.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Is it an "eye test" from the newspaper scans?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I think to some degree it is. It's been a while since I did any major research on Walsh, but I recall when I had him in the ATD, some quotes (not necessarily contemporary) would say "and he was good defensively too" or something to that effect, while in Russell's case, we apparently know he was the opposite. So if both attained similar offensive results and one was good defensively and one was bad... that was my thinking, anyway.
by the way, your tables would be so much nicer if you stuck to significant figures only. Switch everything to zero decimal places in excel before posting.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Good point, I trimmed it down but didn't even real consider appropriate sig digs
I'll keep that in mind for the next set
Last edited:
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
After what's been posted about Young, Smith and Bain, I'd like to know from anyone else who doesn't plan on ranking these players top-5: why not? Do you have an answer other than "they played longer ago than the other guys"? They're considerably ahead of this field in terms of stature within their generation.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Table for Alf Smith. that 1897 is incredibly impressive. Scoring nearly half of his teams goals.
Really? I think Roberts looks pretty good compared to Dunderdale but both behind Morris and Walker as contemporary inductions.
| Season | Team | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT |
| 1894-1895 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | RW | 8 | 5 | 5 | 20% | 26% | 50% | ||
| 1895-1896 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | RW | 8 | 7 | 7 | 32% | 41% | 88% | ||
| 1896-1897 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | RW | 8 | 12 | 0 | 12 | 48% | 100% | 100% | |
| 1903-1904 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | Right Wing | 4 | 7 | 1 | 8 | 6 | 22% | 27% | 62% |
| 1904-1905 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | RW | 8 | 13 | 0 | 13 | 22% | 76% | 76% | |
| 1905-1906 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | Right Wing | 10 | 14 | 9 | 23 | 36 | 21% | 70% | 72% |
| 1906-1907 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | Right Wing | 9 | 17 | 9 | 26 | 23 | 27% | 55% | 100% |
| 1907-1908 | Ottawa Hockey Club | Alf Smith | RW | 9 | 12 | 4 | 16 | 20 | 16% | 53% | 53% |
Really? I think Roberts looks pretty good compared to Dunderdale but both behind Morris and Walker as contemporary inductions.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
This didn't come up when talked about Sprague, but what do we make of the failure of the Wanderers in the 1910s?
On paper they look to have a pretty strong roster year over year
Harry Hyland, Sprague Cleghorn, Odie Cleghorn, Gordon Roberts & Art Ross all played for them for extended stretches in this time. They played in the "playoff" in 1915 but lost to Ottawa but never were quite able to lead the league outright.
Marginal goals makes them look like a pretty terrible team overall despite all the talent outside of 1915.
Was it really just they didn't have an era elite goaltender?
1910 they win the cup with Riley Hern, who plays one final season 1911. The team fails to defend and finishes 4th in the NHA. The roster on paper looks pretty much identical between the two seasons.
Then the new young stars take over, but they can never achieve the ultimate goal
On paper they look to have a pretty strong roster year over year
Harry Hyland, Sprague Cleghorn, Odie Cleghorn, Gordon Roberts & Art Ross all played for them for extended stretches in this time. They played in the "playoff" in 1915 but lost to Ottawa but never were quite able to lead the league outright.
Marginal goals makes them look like a pretty terrible team overall despite all the talent outside of 1915.
Was it really just they didn't have an era elite goaltender?
1910 they win the cup with Riley Hern, who plays one final season 1911. The team fails to defend and finishes 4th in the NHA. The roster on paper looks pretty much identical between the two seasons.
Then the new young stars take over, but they can never achieve the ultimate goal
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I might be wrong. I remember being underwhelmed with Roberts' longevity as a top player (kind of a sharp dropoff after his best seasons), while Dunderdale aged better.
Taking a look at my spreadsheet it seems they're fairly close for best 3, 5, 7, 9 seasons, then Dunderdale had three more decent-ish seasons and three more where "at least he was a player at the highest level", but just longevity padding, really.
They're within the margin of error for best 5 seasons, but Dunderdale pulls away quite substantially after that.
I don't think I plan to rank either this round so there's time for me to be convinced. I'd need to see that Roberts was more highly regarded at their respective bests or had more substance to him.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I think I had the inverse reaction to looking at their results. When we talked more about Dunderdale 2 rounds (?) ago I came away deeply unimpressed by the chasm of results between 1913 & 1920. Outside of those years he looks deeply unimpressive as a candidate. Roberts has an impressive 3 year streak between 1915-1917 that Dunderdale can't really touch. And as I mentioned earlier maybe the difference here is that Roberts seems to have been an elite complimentary player (tough, capable of checking and scoring) while Dunderdale really strikes me as someone who had to be the focal point offensively. Dunderdale pretty consistently has a higher OC% than Roberts even in his more down years.
| Season | Team | Teams GP | Name | Position | GP | G | A | P | PIM | OC % | Vs1 | VsT | |
| PCHA | 1919-1920 | Victoria Aristocrats | 22 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 22 | 26 | 7 | 33 | 35 | 36% | 100% | 100% |
| PCHA | 1912-1913 | Victoria Aristocrats | 15 | Tommy Dunderdale | C | 15 | 24 | 5 | 29 | 36 | 29% | 100% | 100% |
| NHA | 1914-1915 | Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 19 | 29 | 5 | 34 | 74 | 20% | 100% | 100% |
| PCHA | 1916-1917 | Vancouver Millionaires | 23 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 23 | 43 | 10 | 53 | 42 | 25% | 98% | 100% |
| NHA | 1913-1914 | Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 20 | 31 | 13 | 44 | 15 | 27% | 98% | 100% |
| PCHA | 1911-1912 | Victoria Aristocrats | 16 | Tommy Dunderdale | R | 16 | 24 | 0 | 24 | 25 | 30% | 89% | 100% |
| PCHA | 1913-1914 | Victoria Aristocrats | 16 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 16 | 24 | 4 | 28 | 34 | 21% | 72% | 90% |
| NHA | 1915-1916 | Montreal Wanderers | 24 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 21 | 18 | 7 | 25 | 64 | 21% | 64% | 78% |
| PCHA | 1921-1922 | Victoria Aristocrats | 24 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 24 | 13 | 6 | 19 | 37 | 20% | 63% | 76% |
| PCHA | 1920-1921 | Victoria Aristocrats | 24 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 24 | 9 | 11 | 20 | 18 | 17% | 63% | 63% |
| PCHA | 1914-1915 | Victoria Aristocrats | 17 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 17 | 17 | 10 | 27 | 22 | 29% | 60% | 100% |
| PCHA | 1919-1920 | Vancouver Millionaires | 22 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 22 | 16 | 3 | 19 | 13 | 17% | 58% | 79% |
| PCHA | 1917-1918 | Seattle Metropolitans | 18 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 18 | 20 | 3 | 23 | 24 | 20% | 53% | 77% |
| PCHA | 1915-1916 | Portland Rosebuds | 18 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 18 | 14 | 3 | 17 | 45 | 16% | 49% | 59% |
| PCHA | 1916-1917 | Portland Rosebuds | 24 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 24 | 22 | 4 | 26 | 141 | 16% | 48% | 58% |
| PCHA | 1917-1918 | Portland Rosebuds | 18 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 18 | 14 | 6 | 20 | 57 | 21% | 47% | 95% |
| NHA | 1909-1910 | Montreal Shamrocks | 12 | Tommy Dunderdale | R | 12 | 14 | 0 | 14 | 19 | 27% | 44% | 100% |
| NHA | 1911-1912 | Montreal Wanderers | 18 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 18 | 16 | 1 | 17 | 28 | 16% | 43% | 68% |
| NHA | 1909-1910 | Ottawa Senators | 12 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 9 | 13 | 0 | 13 | 34 | 15% | 41% | 68% |
| NHA | 1912-1913 | Montreal Wanderers | 20 | Gord Roberts | Left Wing | 16 | 17 | 2 | 19 | 22 | 17% | 40% | 56% |
| NHA | 1910-1911 | Quebec Hockey Club | 16 | Tommy Dunderdale | C | 9 | 13 | 2 | 15 | 25 | 18% | 36% | 88% |
| PCHA | 1918-1919 | Victoria Aristocrats | 20 | Tommy Dunderdale | C | 20 | 5 | 4 | 9 | 28 | 26% | 25% | 100% |
| WCHL | 1923-1924 | Edmonton Eskimos | 30 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 11 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 2% | 5% | 6% |
| PCHA | 1922-1923 | Victoria Cougars | 30 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 27 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 16 | 1% | 4% | 4% |
| WCHL | 1923-1924 | Saskatoon Crescents | 30 | Tommy Dunderdale | Center | 6 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4 | 1% | 3% | 3% |
| NHA | 1910-1911 | Montreal Wanderers | 16 | Gord Roberts | LW | 4 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 1% | 2% | 3% |
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XVI (Playoffs or Retool?)- Latest: GoAwayPanarin
