Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 5

[ResilientBeast]

Also updating this table once again by eye balls, any mistakes are accidental.

Italics means already inducted on our list

PCHA
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]League Champion[/TD]
[TD]Players Relevant to this Round[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912[/TD]
[TD]New Westminster[/TD]
[TD]Hugh Lehman, Moose Johnson[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913[/TD]
[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]Lester Patrick, Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914[/TD]
[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]Lester Patrick, Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1915[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Mickay MacKay, Hugh Lehman, Cyclone Taylor, Frank Nighbor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916[/TD]
[TD]Portland Rosebuds[/TD]
[TD]Moose Johnson, Tommy Dunderdale[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1917[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]
[TD]Hap Holmes, Jack Walker, Bernie Morris, Frank Foyston[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Mickay MacKay, Hugh Lehman, Cyclone Taylor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]
[TD]Hap Holmes, Jack Walker, Bernie Morris, Frank Foyston[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920[/TD]
[TD]Seattle Metropolitans[/TD]
[TD]Hap Holmes, Jack Walker, Frank Foyston[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1921[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Mickay MacKay, Hugh Lehman, Cyclone Taylor[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1922[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Mickay MacKay, Hugh Lehman[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1923[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Mickay MacKay, Hugh Lehman[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1924[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Mickay MacKay, Hugh Lehman[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

NHL/NHA
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]League Champion[/TD]
[TD]Players Relevant to this Round[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912[/TD]
[TD]Quebec Bulldogs[/TD]
[TD]Joe Malone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913[/TD]
[TD]Quebec Bulldogs[/TD]
[TD]Joe Malone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914[/TD]
[TD]Toronto Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Harry Cameron, Frank Foyston, Jack Walker, Hap Holmes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1915[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]Clint Benedict, Eddie Gerard, Art Ross[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Canadiens[/TD]
[TD]Newsy Lalonde, Georges Vezina, Didier Pitre[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1917[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Canadiens[/TD]
[TD]Newsy Lalonde, Georges Vezina, Didier Pitre[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918[/TD]
[TD]Toronto Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Hap Holmes, Reg Noble, Harry Cameron[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Canadiens[/TD]
[TD]Newsy Lalonde, Georges Vezina, Joe Malone, Didier Pitre[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]Frank Nighbor, Sprague Cleghorn, Cy Denneny, Clint Benedict, Eddie Gerard, Georges Boucher[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1921[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]Frank Nighbor, Sprague Cleghorn, Cy Denneny, Clint Benedict, Eddie Gerard, Georges Boucher[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1922[/TD]
[TD]Toronto St Patricks[/TD]
[TD]Babe Dye, Harry Cameron, Reg Noble[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1923[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]Frank Nighbor, Cy Denneny, Clint Benedict, Eddie Gerard, Georges Boucher[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1924[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Canadiens[/TD]
[TD]Sprague Cleghorn, Georges Vezina, Joe Malone[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1925[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Canadiens[/TD]
[TD]Sprague Cleghorn, Georges Vezina[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1926[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Maroons[/TD]
[TD]Reg Noble[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Big4/WCHL/WHL
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]League Champion[/TD]
[TD]Players Relevant to this Round[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920[/TD]
[TD]Edmonton Eskimos[/TD]
[TD]Duke Keats[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1921[/TD]
[TD]Calgary Tigers[/TD]
[TD]Herb Gardiner[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1922[/TD]
[TD]Regina Capitals[/TD]
[TD]George Hay[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1923[/TD]
[TD]Edmonton Eskimos[/TD]
[TD]Duke Keats, Joe Simpson[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1924[/TD]
[TD]Calgary Tigers[/TD]
[TD]Herb Gardiner, Bernie Morris[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1925[/TD]
[TD]Victoria Cougars[/TD]
[TD]Frank Fredrickson, Jack Walker, Frank Foyston, Hap Holmes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1926[/TD]
[TD]Victoria Cougars[/TD]
[TD]Frank Fredrickson, Lester Patrick, Jack Walker, Frank Foyston, Hap Holmes[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Hap Holmes shows up 7 different times on a league champion team

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

LeSueur also had less competition though, right? Lots of great defenders by 1925 (or whenever the list was actually compiled), but the goalkeepers list looks fairly weak in comparison.

LeSueur did rank ahead of Benedict and Lehman on that list. Granted, it's possible that the voters tended to go for one pre-WW1 player per position, which would mean Stuart would have "blocked" Pulford.

But I'm pretty sure that the voters who specifically ranked pre-WW1 players gave full lists for both pre- and post-war players (both of which were counted in the vote tabulations), which would leave a 2nd D spot for pre-war guys.

 

[jigglysquishy]

There's a divorce from the best of lists/1925 lists and the contemporary opinions. Pulford ends up on all star lists in 1905, 1907, and 1908. He also gets really strong praise in 1901 and 1903. He's almost certainly the best defender in the world in 1901 in the brief period between Grant and Stuart.

Reading through the @rmartin65 season summaries paints a very strong picture of Pulford.

Yet, he is almost completely absent from best of lists. Stuart gets substantially more praise. Is it their offense that gets remembered more? Why wasn't Pulford remembered as fondly, despite the glowing contemporary opinions?

Grant is missing too. Did voters simply ignore any defender pre Stuart?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Harry Cameron

Here's a light edit of my Harry Cameron ATD profile. The knock on Cameron is the he was kind of a lazy coach killer headcase type. But at his best, I think he's easily the bigger difference-maker at this point. The year-by-year research is from @tarheelhockey during the dmen project.

Harry Cameron

Cameron was the finest rushing defenceman and goal-scorer of hockey's early pro years.

• Stanley Cup winner (1914, 1918, 1922)

Charles Coleman, author of Trail of the Stanley Cup, Vol 1 selected Sprague Cleghorn and Moose Johnson as his All-Star pre-1926 defensemen with Eddie Gerard and Harry Cameron the alternates.

Cameron was a dominant offensive defenseman (his stats at the bottom of this profile alone tell that), but it's hard to tell how good he was overall, as there were no NHA or early NHL All-Star Teams. But here are data points I've found:

The important bullet points of Cameron's star power:

• In 1913 (Cameron's first season in the NHA), he and Frank Nighbor were the two Toronto players selected to the NHA All-Star team that would play the PCHA All-Stars in the second annual All-Star Game between the two of them (Source). Given the fact that each team only carried 2-3 defensemen, this is as close as we have to the equivalent of a First Team NHA All-Star.
• The Montreal Daily Mail polled readers to create a 1914 All Star Team. Cameron was selected All-Star Point (12 votes at point, 5 at coverpoint). Cleghorn was All-Star Coverpoint (10 votes at coverpoint, 6 votes at point) Source
• Harry Cameron was the highest paid player on Toronto's 1918 Cup winning team at $900. The rest of the players' salaries ranged from $450 to $750. (Source).
• 3/21/1919 (Calgary Herald): "Who is the greatest defense player in professional hockey today? Pacific Coast students of the puck chasing game would name Rowe, Johnson or Duncan, but according to eastern critics, Harry Cameron of the Ottawa team carries off the crown. The Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal press rate Cameron as the best in the game today. In the world's series a year ago he was one of the big stars, and Vancouver attributes its defeat chiefly to his wonderful work."

Generic descriptions of his play:

Cameron was considered one of the first great rushing and scoring defencemen.[1] He scored 88 goals in 121 games in the NHL. He was also famous for his "curved shot" similar to that of today's curved hockey sticks, although he played with a straight blade.[1] He was the first player in NHL history to achieve what was later called a "Gordie Howe hat trick", doing so on December 26, 1917

He was considered the first man to be able to curve his shot--with a straight stick, no less!--and long before Bobby Orr flew end to end with the puck Harry Cameron was the finest rushing defenceman and goal-scorer of hockey's early pro years.

One of the great defence players of all time who scored more goals than any other defence man in the history of Stanley Cup competition to the end of 1926.

Harry Cameron was quite a boisterous fellow on and off the ice...

Harry Cameron was the first defenseman to shoot from the point in earnest and developed the so-called "curve-shot."

Stats

Not going to take the time to go into Cameron's NHA stats (which are also great), but here are his NHL stats among ALL players (ages 27-32):

1917-18: 6th in goals, 1st in assists, 6th in points
1918-19: 7th in goals, 8th in points
1919-20: only played 7 games
1920-21: 8th in goals, 4th in assists, 6th in points
1921-22: 7th in goals, 1st in assists, 4th in points.

See also the table at the bottom of tarheel's quote

Season by Season archives search

Here's what I can find on Cameron.

Pre-NHA

Cameron played for the Pembroke Debaters as an amateur from 1908-11. He first went pro with the Port Arthur Lake City team of the Northern Ontario Hockey League. Very little information is available about these years, other than that Cameron insisted that teammate and boyhood friend Frank Nighbor also be offered a pro contract.


1912-13

Cameron entered the NHA with the Toronto Blueshirts, and made an immediate impact. It's noteworthy that while Cameron was the spectacular rusher from the back line, it was coach Jack Marshall's role as a stabilizing force that allowed Cameron to be maximize his talent.

The Toronto World 1/16/1913
Marshall and Cameron made a defence that could not be improved upon. Cameron got the hand [ed: applause] several times for his individual rushing.

The Saskatoon Phoenix 1/17/1913
Coach Jack Marshall got into a uniform and made a great improvement to the defence with Cameron. The latter's rushing was sensational... Cameron, Wilson and Neighbor (sic) were Toronto's stars, with Marchand playing brilliantly in goal.

The Toronto World 2/6/14
Harry Cameron was again the favorite last night. His lone rushes are regular things every night the Torontos play at home.

The Toronto World 2/10/14
Harry Cameron electrified the crowd time after time with his rushes and Marshall kept taking the puck away from his opponents until they looked rather sick.

The Toronto World 2/17/1913
The Torontos displayed laxness at times, but Jack Marshall, who has proved himself the life of the team, time after time, was there with an opportune word, and kept the boys hustling. Alto he is not the best player on the team his generalship is the blue shirts' biggest asset. Nighbor was the star of the game...
... Harry Cameron put up a nice game, and his zig-zag rushes were always to the fore when things looked doubtful.

GP | G | A | P
20 |9| 0| 9


1913-14

The major change to the Blue Shirts this season was the departure of Frank Nighbor and adding George Macnamara as a substitute on defense. They gelled as a team and won the first Stanley Cup in Toronto hockey history. On this team, Cameron had risen to the point of being a legitimate star.

The Toronto Sunday World 2/22/1914
Cameron was the best man on the ice, and his all-round good work did more to put the locals on top than anything else. He scored one of the Torontos' goals and sent about ten more hard ones right at Vezina, who was forced to step lively to clear them. Every time a rush was started at his nets he was there in all his element, and he blocked and saved well. He did a lot of rushing also, and relieved in places when things looked dangerous.

GP | G | A | P
19 | 15 | 4 | 19


1914-15

Jack Marshall came down with appendicitis mid-season, and after his departure the Blue Shirts quickly dropped out of contention. Their 1-8 streak to finish the season is an indication of how important Marshall was to this club. His next game in Toronto would be as a member of the Habs.

GP | G | A | P
17| 12| 8| 20


1915-17

The sale of the Blue Shirts to Eddie Livingstone in 1915 signaled a turning point for the team and for Cameron's career. Judging by the amount of press coverage they received, the sorry team lost the attention of the Toronto hockey public. In turn, it's a lot more difficult to find details of Cameron's performance.

Cameron ended up briefly with the Montreal Wanderers after Livingstone's feud with the NHA led to the demise of the Blue Shirts.

Season | GP | G | A | P
1915-16 | 24 | 8 | 3 | 11
1916-17 | 20 | 9 | 5 | 14


1917-18

Cameron returned to Toronto when the Arenas franchise began play in the NHL. Around this time, he began to feud with manager Charlie Querrie. That feud would play out in the media and the court of public opinion, but Cameron proved a bit too valuable to be disposed of easily.

The Saskatoon Phoenix 12/27/1917
To Harry Cameron, Querrie's sterling defence player, belongs the lion's share of the credit. Three of the goals were directly due to his clever skating and stick handling, while he notched another on a pass from Meeking. On the defence he stopped Lalonde, Malone and Laviolette time and again, and on several occasions he out-skated the whirlwind "Newsy".

The Toronto World 1/29/1918
Cameron showed some of his old time form in rushing and played a fair defensive game.

The following three quotes are from the Stanley Cup Finial series between Toronto and Vancouver.

The Toronto World 3/27/1918
Cameron was the outstanding player for the locals. He rushed in his old time style and the game needed these thrillers at times to liven it up. The good defence man grabbed two goals himself and paved the way for two more.
... Cameron was especially brilliant with his rushes, and he dodged the checkers nearly every time.
... Cameron received a pass and set sail down the ice alone. He shoved the puck ahead of him and when he hit the defence, skated around Griffis, and then picked it up and beat Lohman from close range. It was a pretty goal.
Cameron rushed right back, passed over the defence, and sent the puck across the goal mouth, but Meeking failed to reach it.
... Cameron tore down, skated around the defence and passed to Skinner at the goal mouth. Lohman didn't have a chance to save.
... Cameron got this one back for the Toronto Club with a beautiful lone rush. When Cameron hit the defence he shoved the puck along, went on and grabbed it and scored.
A three-man Toronto rush was next in order and Cameron missed the net by inches only from a good pass.

The Toronto World 3/29/1918
Torontos were simply lost at the seven-man, no offside in centre ice stuff. Vancouver ran all over them with speed and had a bag of tricks that left the blue shirts gasping.
... Cameron was a strong rusher for Toronto, but had hard luck with his shots.

The Toronto World 4/1/1918
Individual rushes were the order, and the work of Cook and Cameron featured.

While it certainly would appear that he was less oustanding as the series wore on, Cameron appears to have been one of the only Toronto players to impress in every game and he was perhaps the single most important player in the first game.

Note the reference to rushing "in old time style". One gets the impression that he was seen as something of a relic at age 28, playing a rushing game that was increasingly less common among younger defensemen.

GP | G | A | P
21 | 17 | 10 | 27


1918-1919

The Calgary Daily Herald 1/31/1919
And the honor of netting the winning goal and of breaking up the big battle again fell to Harry Cameron who had already made himself famous by scoring the deciding point in the Ottawa-Toronto grind at the Queen City arena two nights before.
... Cameron took [Frank Nighbor's pass] perfectly, swerved slightly to his left and then let go a high shot which landed in the twine behind Vezina. ... Cameron kept right on skating after slamming in the goal which brought victory to Ottawa, and was in the dressing room, tired and panting before the majority of spectators realized that it was all over.

The quote above paints a nice picture of an offensive force in his prime. One gets a sense not only of the gracefulness of his skating, but that he had grown into that stage where players seem to operate at a level slightly above the opponent.

Cameron was briefly traded to Ottawa that season... alas, if any reactions to that trade exist in print I can't find them.

GP | G |A |P
14 | 11 | 3 |14


1919-20

This was an interesting season for Cameron. He returned from a brief sojourn in Ottawa. Querrie, his longtime nemesis in management, bought the team in December and renamed them the St. Patricks. Note the following series of events.

The Toronto World 12/24/1919
Mitchell was very good in the Toronto nets, while Cameron and Randall both furnished strong defence games.

The Toronto World 12/29/1919
[several others played well, as did] Cameron, tho the latter was not at his best owing to a bad gash he received in the preliminary practice when he crashed into the goal post with his head, requiring medical assistance.

Edmonton Journal 1/15/1920
Noble and Cameron were away below form. Cameron gave a listless exhibition and was taken out near the close of the first period. Immediately following the game the locals traded him to Canadiens for "Goldie" Prodgers.

The Montreal Gazette 1/19/1920
Harry Cameron, who was recently secured from St. Patrick's in trade for Goldie Prodgers, made his initial appearance with Canadiens and acquitted himself in a creditable manner. Cameron was not only used as a substitute defenceman, but was sent in to relieve players on the forward line.

The Montreal Gazette 1/21/1920
Cameron is playing better hockey with Canadiens than he did with St. Patrick's, and fits well into his new position.

Within a month's time he goes from solid, to severely injured, to listless, to expendable, to a success with a new team.

Brings a few questions to mind. Who the hell goes head-first into the goal post during warmups? Why was he so listless after that injury? Why was the team so quick to pull the trigger on trading a 5-year star? Was he in a concussion-like state, or something else along the lines of a Lionel Conacher situation? Or was he simply disinterested in playing for Querrie, who had the leverage to unilaterally send Cameron packing for the second time.

It's a very interesting drama indeed.

GP| G | A | P
23 | 15 | 5 | 20

1920-21

Cameron, of course, returned to Toronto the next season (more questions spring to mind) and appears to have been right back to form.

The Toronto World 1/24/1921
... Harry Cameron skated from goal to goal, shot and slapped in the rebound...

The addition of Sprague Cleghorn gave him a defense partner comparable steadiness to Jack Marshall, and the results were notably similar.

The Toronto World 1/25/1921
Cleghorn and Cameron will be a hard defence to score on. It was Harry Cameron's defensive work which helped materially to beat Ottawa in the overtime period. Harry saved the situation twice in the overtime period by good headwork.
... [Cleghorn] will steady the defence and improve the play of Cameron.

The Toronto World 1/27/1921
Cameron was also brilliant with his rushing, and was not adverse (sic) to giving or taking a pass. ... Cameron fitted in nicely with [Cleghorn] in the rushing.

GP | G |A | P
24 | 18 | 9 | 27


1921-22

With Cameron leading all defensemen in goals, assists and points, the St. Pats finished second in the league and beat the heavily-favored Senators in the playoffs on the way to the Stanley Cup. Unfortunately, much of the summary of the first game of the series is unreadable on the Google archive. It appears that Cameron had a hand in a controversial goal. In the second game, apparently played in "inches of water", the St. Pats played suffocating defense against a Senators club that could be described in Terry Murray's words as experiencing a choking situation. The Montreal Gazette seemed scandalized that the Cup would be defended by a team which was "not truly the best representative team of eastern professional hockey". I suppose we should take that kind of talk with a grain of salt, but it does say something about the degree to which the St. Pats stepped up their game in the playoffs while the juggernaut Sens faded.

Cameron was 3 points shy of Babe Dye for the team lead that season.

GP | G | A | P
24| 18 |17 |35

1922-23

The Calgary Daily Herald 12/2/1922
Cameron for the visitors stood out conspicuously in the already conspicuous performance of the St. Pats. All three of Toronto's goals went to his stick. He faithfully contributed one in every period.
... Noble, Denenny and Rye were responsible for some brilliant work and they were only prevented from piling up a handsome score by the work of Fowler. Old Harry Cameron was the only man that had Fowler's number.
... Then Cameron showed the lads something flashy and beat Fowler.

Cameron was clearly still a force to be reckoned with, but I think it says something when a player starts to be referred to as "old so-and-so" and talked about as showing "the lads" a trick or two.

This was his final season in the NHL. When the Pats missed the playoffs in 1923, Cameron departed for Saskatoon where, as I understand it, he made a transition to forward.

GP | G | A | P
22 | 9 | 7 | 16

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The following table shows the top 5 defensemen in scoring from 1917 through 1923. Note that it does not include two seasons (1914 and 1915) when Cameron was a point-per-game scorer.

Rk | Name | GP | G | A | P | PIM
1 |Harry Cameron | 128 | 88 | 51 | 139 |189
2 |Eddie Gerard|128 |50 |48 |98 |108
3 |George Boucher | 109| 50| 39| 89 |207
4 |Sprague Cleghorn| 100 |52| 33 |85 |257
5| Bert Corbeau | 127 |45 |30 |75 |291

Starting in 1917-18, Cameron led all NHL defensemen in the following categories:

1917-18: Goals, Assists, Points
1918-19: Goals, Points (tied with his partner Randall)
1919-20: Points (tied with his partner Randall) and 2nd in goals to Cleghorn
1920-21: Goals, Assists, Points
1921-22: Goals, Assists, Points


Best I can tell, Cameron was likely the premier puck-rushing defenseman in hockey during the early years of the NHL. He took the solo-rushing sensibility of early hockey and applied it to the "modern" game. The major weakness in his game was the need for a steady partner, a Marshall or Cleghorn, to give him a bit of space to roam. Still, he was by no means a one-way player and if we had plus-minus numbers from back then, they would probably show very favorably for him.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42979705&postcount=41

 

[Professor What]

Harry Cameron

Stats

Not going to take the time to go into Cameron's NHA stats (which are also great), but here are his NHL stats among ALL players (ages 27-32):

1917-18: 6th in goals, 1st in assists, 6th in points
1918-19: 7th in goals, 8th in points
1919-20: only played 7 games
1920-21: 8th in goals, 4th in assists, 6th in points
1921-22: 7th in goals, 1st in assists, 4th in points.

Cameron was the only defensemen to lead the NHL in assists before Orr, and still one of only three to do it, correct?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There's a divorce from the best of lists/1925 lists and the contemporary opinions. Pulford ends up on all star lists in 1905, 1907, and 1908. He also gets really strong praise in 1901 and 1903. He's almost certainly the best defender in the world in 1901 in the brief period between Grant and Stuart.

Reading through the @rmartin65 season summaries paints a very strong picture of Pulford.

Yet, he is almost completely absent from best of lists. Stuart gets substantially more praise. Is it their offense that gets remembered more? Why wasn't Pulford remembered as fondly, despite the glowing contemporary opinions?

Grant is missing too. Did voters simply ignore any defender pre Stuart?

To answer the bolded, the answer is "probably." Not a single pre-Bowie player at any position makes much of a dent in those early all-time lists. Is it because the voters didn't see them play? Or is it because the talent pool was weaker, as the Bowie generation seems to be the first generation to grow up playing competitive hockey? A mix of both?

 

[rmartin65]

LeSueur did rank ahead of Benedict and Lehman on that list. Granted, it's possible that the voters tended to go for one pre-WW1 player per position, which would mean Stuart would have "blocked" Pulford.

But I'm pretty sure that the voters who specifically ranked pre-WW1 players gave full lists for both pre- and post-war players (both of which were counted in the vote tabulations), which would leave a 2nd D spot for pre-war guys.

Yeah, those are good points. I'm not really sure what to do with that. I guess the off-the-top-of-my-head response would be that perhaps it was that LeSueur was a more recent player, and thus more in the front of the voters' minds?

Pulford and LeSueur only overlapped on the same team for a couple years (1 SC game in 1906, then the 1907 and 1908 seasons). Pulford then retired, and LeSueur went on to play another 9 seasons, so, again, I'm not sure if this really harms Pulford's standing on the Silver Seven championship teams, as they only overlapped there for a single game (where Ottawa HC blew-out the Wanderers, but lost the Cup on goal totals).

For what it is worth, Lester Patrick named both Moran and LeSueur as the best goalies among retired players in 1927.

There's a divorce from the best of lists/1925 lists and the contemporary opinions. Pulford ends up on all star lists in 1905, 1907, and 1908. He also gets really strong praise in 1901 and 1903. He's almost certainly the best defender in the world in 1901 in the brief period between Grant and Stuart.

*cough* between Young and Stuart *cough*

Yet, he is almost completely absent from best of lists. Stuart gets substantially more praise. Is it their offense that gets remembered more? Why wasn't Pulford remembered as fondly, despite the glowing contemporary opinions?

Perhaps, but I think you nailed it below-

Grant is missing too. Did voters simply ignore any defender pre Stuart?

I think this is the most likely answer. Does anyone know the ages of the voters in that 1925 list? That may shed some light into this one.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think this is the most likely answer. Does anyone know the ages of the voters in that 1925 list? That may shed some light into this one.

My source is a broken link, but I'll copy this from a 10 year old hfboards post of mine:

"In 1925, MacLean's magazine asked Charlie H. Good, the Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper folded in 1919, to compile All-Time All-Star teams for their March 15, 1925 edition of the magazine. Good called upon his friends in the hockey world to help him with the list. The list of participants reads like a who's-who of the early hockey world:

Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young, Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery, Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P."

I'm sure a google search of each guy will find most of their birth years; I don't have time this week to look it up.

 

[nabby12]

I think it's also too early for Joe Simpson as well. But he has a pretty great peak and he has the contemporary opinions to back him up as a superstar during the era. As I recall Simpson is the one who most impressed observers during the 1923 cup final against Ottawa and not Keats.

My 2018 bio has tons of game descriptions and various bits of praise for him, including @overpass finding he was almost traded for Nighbor.

Simpson's performance in the Stanley Cup Final of 1923 against Ottawa (held in Vancouver, a neutral site). Courtesy of Overpass

Game 1






Game 2






1923 - 03 - 17 - Edmonton Bulletin


His longevity is really poor, he was what 5 seasons of note?

It might be too early for him, but in his defense, he was actually considered the top defenseman in the world for a small period of time by many of his peers and sportswriters. Not many players can make that claim. It's an interesting one to rank, that's for sure.

 

[ResilientBeast]

For those of you who are more visually inclined here are some graphs showing Walker, Foyston and Morris when they were together in Seattle. Morris beat Foyston head to head 5 times out 7 seasons spent together at their peak/primes

View attachment 665289

Here is Vs1 over the same stretch together.

View attachment 665286

Edit: Oops forgot Walker missed a year.

And to keep piling on Foyston (man does my earlier praise feel misguided) not only does he get beaten by Bernie Morris in Seattle regularly he is also being beat in scoring when on Toronto. Usual conceits about scorekeeping apply, but early career Foyston struggled to outscore Jack Walker and Cully Wilson and then as he aged he couldn't outscore Bernie Morris for 4 seasons together.

How much defensive impact can make up scoring 40% less points than your teammates? Especially when your team has a better defensive player on it?

Defensively in Seattle Walker > Foyston > Morris
Offensive Morris > Foyston > Walker

Walker is 3 years older so I can buy the argument he came in more physically mature and ready for top level hockey but the guy clearly could score. I wonder if Muldoon actually wanted him to focus his efforts more defensively which tanked his individual numbers.

In 1915-16
Walker - Split time between Rover and LW
Morris - Split time between C and RW
Foyston - Split time between R and then a bit a LW and C

 

[jigglysquishy]

My source is a broken link, but I'll copy this from a 10 year old hfboards post of mine:

"In 1925, MacLean's magazine asked Charlie H. Good, the Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper folded in 1919, to compile All-Time All-Star teams for their March 15, 1925 edition of the magazine. Good called upon his friends in the hockey world to help him with the list. The list of participants reads like a who's-who of the early hockey world:

Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young, Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery, Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P."

I'm sure a google search of each guy will find most of their birth years; I don't have time this week to look it up.

James Sutherland - 1870
WA Hewitt - 1875
Lou Marsh - 1879
Lester Patrick - 1883
Frank Shaughnessy- 1883
Harry Scott - 1885
Art Ross - 1885
Tommy Gorman - 1886
Basil O'Mearsla - 1892
Ed Baker - 1902

About half I founs through Google.

Most would have been too young to comment on 1890s hockey.

If the 1925 list functionally disregards pre 1903 hockey, we shouldn't use it when discussing pre 1903 players. Maybe Grant truly was the best hockey player in the world for 4 years. His exclusion in 1925 isn't evidence one way or the other.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Maybe I'm missing something as well about Foyston's playoff impact but in 1917 why is Bernie Morris kind of swept aside?

The Mets scored 23 goals in 4 games during that series. Morris either scored himself or had an assist on 16 of them.....63% of the goals Morris was involved in.

Then in the 1919 series Morris was forced to miss it due to his "draft dodging" and Foyston manages to score 9 goals and 10 total points in the 5 played games. In total the Mets had 19 goals so just over half Foyston was involved in.

1920 Foyston appears to have had a better series than Morris, however Morris had missed the entire regular season.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Foyston is just a little bit too close to being a second-fiddle type player for me to get behind him just yet. Not that he doesn't have an argument to belong in this group, but he doesn't have quite the star-quality we should be still be seeing in our inductees. At least not outside a literal handful of games in a couple of seasons.

There are significant downsides to Cameron, Dye, and Pitre. But they had star power and were guys you game-planned around stopping. That to me is still rather important at this phase, when there are only a limited number of eligible players like this remaining. Plenty of time for "straw that stirs the drink" type inductees later.

 

[rmartin65]

James Sutherland - 1870
WA Hewitt - 1875
Lou Marsh - 1879
Lester Patrick - 1883
Frank Shaughnessy- 1883
Harry Scott - 1885
Art Ross - 1885
Tommy Gorman - 1886
Basil O'Mearsla - 1892
Ed Baker - 1902

About half I founs through Google.

Most would have been too young to comment on 1890s hockey.

If the 1925 list functionally disregards pre 1903 hockey, we shouldn't use it when discussing pre 1903 players.

Thanks for doing the leg-work in tracking this down. Even if it is not all the names, it is a good idea of the ages of those involved. I 100% agree with your conclusion.

Maybe Grant truly was the best hockey player in the world for 4 years. His exclusion in 1925 isn't evidence one way or the other.

My new-found problem with Grant is where is this idea of Grant as the best D/best player of his time coming from? I've been all up in a lot (I won't say all) of the primary sources, and I'm just not seeing that level of praise. Maybe I missed it, maybe it is on a day I didn't look at, maybe it is in a source I don't know about/haven't looked at, but I am not getting that vibe from Grant.

He was definitely a great player; I'm not arguing against that. He was probably the best on those 1890s Victorias teams (I'm downgrading my level of conviction having gone back through those games, but he's my pick right now if forced to commit to a name- although, man, McDougall and S. Davidson are impressive), but that doesn't necessarily make him the best player or d-man in the world.

I'm really curious about the origin of this statement, because it just seems like one of those things we are all taking as a truth without knowing why. Unless I'm just in the dark, which I won't rule out.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Thanks for doing the leg-work in tracking this down. Even if it is not all the names, it is a good idea of the ages of those involved. I 100% agree with your conclusion.

My new-found problem with Grant is where is this idea of Grant as the best D/best player of his time coming from? I've been all up in a lot (I won't say all) of the primary sources, and I'm just not seeing that level of praise. Maybe I missed it, maybe it is on a day I didn't look at, maybe it is in a source I don't know about/haven't looked at, but I am not getting that vibe from Grant.

He was definitely a great player; I'm not arguing against that. He was probably the best on those 1890s Victorias teams (I'm downgrading my level of conviction having gone back through those games, but he's my pick right now if forced to commit to a name- although, man, McDougall and S. Davidson are impressive), but that doesn't necessarily make him the best player or d-man in the world.

I'm really curious about the origin of this statement, because it just seems like one of those things we are all taking as a truth without knowing why. Unless I'm just in the dark, which I won't rule out.

In regards to best player in the world, that's largely just from discussion here. I haven't seen any external source to it.

But in regards to best defenseman, it becomes who else? Griffis doesn't play until 1901. Pulford doesn't start getting talked about in the elite grouping until 1900 or 1901. Stuart's first full year is in 1900.

Grant and Weldy Young are the only big name defensemen from ~1893-~1900. And the gushing over Grant is much stronger. The quotes about him being the first true star in the sport leads credence to his ability.

Over that same time we have Dolly Swift, McDougall, Routh, Trihey, even Davidson as names at forward. None stands out as the best in the way that Grant does.

I would love to see some more contemporary sources on it though.

 

[sr edler]

My source is a broken link, but I'll copy this from a 10 year old hfboards post of mine:

"In 1925, MacLean's magazine asked Charlie H. Good, the Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper folded in 1919, to compile All-Time All-Star teams for their March 15, 1925 edition of the magazine. Good called upon his friends in the hockey world to help him with the list. The list of participants reads like a who's-who of the early hockey world:

Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young, Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery, Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P."

I'm sure a google search of each guy will find most of their birth years; I don't have time this week to look it up.

W. A. Boys is this guy below, William Alves Boys (b. 1868) from Barrie, he was a cover-point with both Osgoode Hall and the Barrie H/C in the 1890s Ontario Hockey Association, so yeah he would have played against Queen's University, University of Toronto, the Granites, and such teams, and probably had a pretty good overview of 1890s hockey in general. Him and Sutherland at least.

William Alves Boys - Wikipedia

I'm not familiar with all those other names, but Bruce Boreham (b. 1891) was a journalist/publicist with a very brief goalie career, and Roy Halpin (b. 1897) was a player/coach in Quebec City, his grand-son (and namesake) is in the British Ice Hockey Hall of Fame.

Here below is Boys (seated center) with the 1897 Barrie Hockey Club. The Saint Bernard is named Bianco.

 

[sr edler]

William John (W. J.) "Bill" Morrison was a sports editor at the Montreal Gazette, born in 1875 in Toronto, per his obituary in the June 4, 1951 issue of the Gazette. So he was the same age as W. A. "Billy" Hewitt.

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

 

[sr edler]

Here's another one, Oliver Frank (O. F.) Young, editor with the Port Arthur News-Chronicle. His age (76) at the time of his death, per his obit in the Ottawa Citizen (May 1, 1957), puts his YOB at around 1881.

His obit (below) also claims he was a proponent for penalized players being let back on the ice when a goal is scored on their team, and also for the centre ice red line.

Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

 

[rmartin65]

In regards to best player in the world, that's largely just from discussion here. I haven't seen any external source to it.

Am I the only one this troubles? One of the things I am enjoying the most about the project so far is everyone's willingness to explore the origin behind certain previous rankings and to reconsider some positions previously held as inarguable truths.

But in regards to best defenseman, it becomes who else? Griffis doesn't play until 1901. Pulford doesn't start getting talked about in the elite grouping until 1900 or 1901. Stuart's first full year is in 1900.

I think it may have been Young. I'm not 100% on the idea, and I'm not looking to clog this thread up with a billion quotes about an ineligible player, but Young's case is very compelling to me. Prior to Young it was Campbell, who was very likely (as far as we can tell with the scant newspaper clippings of the time) the best player, let alone defender, in the world for a while in the late 1880s.

Grant and Weldy Young are the only big name defensemen from ~1893-~1900. And the gushing over Grant is much stronger. The quotes about him being the first true star in the sport leads credence to his ability.

Would you mind pointing me to the bolded quote(s)? His bio links some pretty praise from greatesthockeylegends.com, but those aren't backed up by any sort of sourcing. I could also write something with no sourcing, and no one should take that credibly. I see a quote for "best known hockey player in Canada" from a Pittsburgh paper in 1905, but I'd argue that "best known" does not mean "best". I also have a quote calling Young the best defender in Canada (admittedly from an Ottawa paper) and I already posted the quote that basically says that Grant doesn't measure up to Young (again, an Ottawa paper, so there is likely some bias there).

As I mentioned above, I am more impressed by the primary source praise that Young gets vs what we see about Grant. Don't get me wrong, Grant was a very, very good player, but the only thing I think he definitively has on Young is Cups. The (primary source) praise is pretty close, but tilting in Young's favor IMO. Unless I have missed something, which I always admit is possible.

Over that same time we have Dolly Swift, McDougall, Routh, Trihey, even Davidson as names at forward. None stands out as the best in the way that Grant does.

Certainly not Swift. McDougall, maybe. Routh, probably not. I think Trihey has a compelling argument for a brief period of time, but his peak/career was just so short... and I don't think he was a McGee-level impact to ameliorate the short career/peak.

I would love to see some more contemporary sources on it though.

Me too.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

The 1914 Stanley Cup Finals

ResilientBeast's table showing the eligible players for each Stanley Cup Finals team piqued my interest. It looks like the 1914 and 1919 Finals contained the most eligible players for this round, with five a piece, so I decided to dive deep into one of those series to see what I could dig up. Walker, Holmes, and Foyston feature in both, but I decided to do 1914 as I am a little bit more interested in Dunderdale and Cameron than Morris and Pitre as historical profiles. Plus, the famous Scotty Davidson played in the 1914 final, and he may or may not show up for voting. So, I went at it the past couple of evenings.

This is how I'll format the post. I'll separate each game, give a summary and make some commentary, and then throw in some specific mentions of the eligible players involved. The commentary will be pretty long, so I'll enclose it within spoiler tags, similar to rmartin's season recap posts in the other thread. I pulled from a number of sources for this, and one thing that needs to be mentioned up front is that the Western and Eastern papers have very different viewpoints on how the games went. In light of this, during the game summaries I'll mark each quote with a (W) for West and an (E) for East, to explain the sometimes seemingly contradictory reporting. Bolded emphasis will be my own, of course.

-----

I won't go too deep into previews for the series, as it's mostly just the papers trying to gas up their side of the battle. The West all like the Aristocrats (who, curiously, are never actually called the Aristocrats during this time period - always Victoria, Vics, or Senators), while the East like the Torontos. But I'll include this biased passage as it makes a few direct comparisons between the teams:

Taking the teams man by man, it is seen that Victoria widens the margin between the two clubs. Bert Lindsay is far more experienced than Holmes and has been through a couple of world's series...”

“Toronto had to depend upon Jack Marshall and Harry Cameron. Marshall never saw the day when he was rated as good as or in the same class as Lester Patrick, while it remains to be seen whether [Bobby] Genge or Cameron will crack in their first world's series...”

“The coast champions have an extremely well-balanced attack, while every man on the forward line is a goal-getter. [Dubbie] Kerr and Dunderdale are stars in this line, while [Skinner] Poulin, [Walter] Smaill and [Bobby] Rowe have no equals when it comes to checking back and lasting out a hard game.

Take the Victoria line. Dunderdale is rated the hardest shot in the game, with Kerr a close second...”

“Against this array of stars, Toronto will pit Davidson, a strong skater and heady shot; Foyston, a comparative junior, who has yet to win his spurs in professional hockey, and Walker, a smooth stickhandler who has fallen away badly of late.

It's not clear what evidence there was to back up this declaration, as the same paper, a day earlier, reported that Walker and Cameron had been the stars for Toronto in their NHA final win over Montreal. But it's interesting, and it would prove not to age very well. With all that said, let's get on with it.


Game 1 – NHA Rules – Toronto Win 5-2

Victoria -
G – Lindsay
Point – L. Patrick
Cover – Genge
Centre – Dunderdale
RW – Poulin
LW – Kerr

Torontos -
G – Holmes
Point – Marshall
Cover – McNamara
Centre – Foyston
RW – Davidson
LW – Walker

Summary -

1st
Torontos – McNamara

2nd
Victorias – Dunderdale
Torontos – Marshall

3rd
Torontos – Walker
Torontos – Davidson
Torontos – McNamara
Victorias – Poulin

Spoiler: Game One Commentary

Before I even write about the game, an aside to show the odd narrative differences between Vics supporters and Blueshirt supporters in the press:

"When the red-shirted Victoria challengers skated on the ice the applause could easily have been drowned out by half a dozen ball fans from Lansdowne Parke stepping on an assortment of peanut shells.” (E)

"The Victorias were given a rousing and demonstrative welcome when they came on the ice fully ten minutes before the home team and indulged in an easy work-out to limber up.” (W)

Like, are you serious? Anyway. The score suggests a comfortable Blueshirt victory, but the reports illustrate a different story. In the West, it's claimed that the Vics outplay Toronto. In the East, Toronto is just a better team. But one thing is for certain - Hap Holmes saved the day for the home squad. Skinner Poulin and Bobby Genge are generally considered the best players for the visitors, and it's remarked that the Vics defense is better than their Toronto counterparts in old Jack Marshall and George McNamara. Scotty Davidson is reported to have come down with 'the grippe', or the flu as we now call it, and his play reflected it - little mention is made of him. And where's Harry?

As for the quality of hockey, the reports are that the spectators will not look back upon the game with rosy memories:

“The finest cure for insomnia on the market – watching the world's hockey series.” (E)

“The players in the world's hockey series will get a few hundred dollars apiece. If Saturday night was any criterion they should get six months.” (E)

“The Torontos are credited with having conditioned on strong liquor. And a casual observer on Saturday night would figure two or three of the Victoria team train exclusively on laudanum.” (E)

Finally, poor old Winnipeg is so lost in the sauce with amateur hockey that they get their signals crossed, and incorrectly report that the Stanley Cup final is being played in a two game, total goals series like the Allan Cup:

“In the opening contest Saturday night Toronto disposed of the westerners by a count of five to two and will enter the final game with a three-goal advantage. Total goals will decide the issue, but Victoria is far from being out of the battle.” (W)

Tommy Dunderdale

Dunderdale seems to have had a solid game. His stickhandling is noted quite often, and he did score one of the goals, though his skating was not noted as being a strength like I'd expected.

“Victoria proved to have three pretty fair hockey players in Genge, Dunderdale and Poulin, but Genge was the only man who can lay claim to any great speed. Lester Patrick is not the Lester Patrick of Wanderer days...” (E)

“Both Dunderdale and Poulin are elegant stick-handlers, and they could easily worm their way through three or four of the Torontos, but they hadn't the speed to get away and, once they really got going, Walker, Foyston and Davidson backchecked the westerners off the face of the hockey map.” (E)

“Genge and Poulin also showed up well, while Dunderdale scored one of Victoria's two goals, and was always a source of danger to the Toronto's defense.” (W)

“Dunderdale stick-handling the puck from behind the Toronto nets in front for a score, but was called back for kicking the puck.” (E)

“Walker handed the Victoria team their first score when he attempted to carry the puck out in front of his nets. Dunderdale is just about as good an exponent of the 'poke' check as the Toronto man and he used it to advantage, grabbing the puck and catching one bottom corner for a score.” (E)

^ Didn't expect that! It may only be one mention of Dunderdale's defensive work, but still better than nothing.

“Both teams made many replacements during the period and, with Wilson on for Davidson and Ulrich, the deaf mute replacing Dunderdale, Jack Marshall shot from well out and scored the third goal.” (E)

^ Yes, Jack Ulrich, a Victoria sub, really was deaf. sr edler has an interesting article on that here.

“Dunderdale tripped Foyston and drew a penalty and, while he was off and Smaill in his place, Toronto carried the play to Victoria.” (E)

“Another combination rush gave McNamara a shot and it was 5 to 1 with the Blueshirts still sweeping down on Lindsay, while Dunderdale and Poulin worked desperately to hold them out.” (E)

“In the last couple of minutes the Blueshirts merely loafed and appeared satisfied to let the defence do the rushing and checking. Dunderdale and Poulin, always trying, finally landed another goal just before the final whistle sounded, Poulin taking a pass from a scrimmage at the corner right in on Marchand for the final goal.”(E)

^ See the Hap Holmes section for explanation on the appearance of a rogue 'Marchand' in nets.

“As spectacular stick handlers at centre ice, Dunderdale and Poulin carried off the honors, but in scoring their work was not as effective as that of the men on the opposing line.” (E)

“Kerr, Dunderdale and Poulin are not the equals of Foyston, Walker and Davidson in speed, back-checking or shooting ability, and even their vaunted combination play didn't show up.” (E)

Frank Foyston

Foyston didn't have a very noteworthy game, it seems. He is the player of this group who's probably the furthest from his prime (either him or Holmes), despite having a pretty solid season for the Blueshirts statistically, so my expectations weren't too high of him anyway.

“Genge rushed straight for the nets when he got possession and both McNamara and Marshall usually tried to carry right through but Davidson, Foyston, Kerr and Poulin did all kinds of ineffective circling round and stickhandling.” (E)

“The Torontos played a three man defence and appeared unwilling to open up and take chances, allowing Walker and Foyston to do all the work.”

“McNamara started a three-man rush, he carrying the puck into the corner, drawing out the Victoria defence. He passed out to Foyston, who missed an open net as Lindsay had come out to meet him.”

Jack Walker

Walker played what could be described as 'Jack Walker game'. Noted for his active stick, he also nets what would end up being the winning goal.

“Jack Walker was doing the major portion of the work for the Torontos, his 'poke' check breaking up the rushes by Poulin and Dunderdale. Kerr did little but loaf during the opening period and, if he got in a shot on the nets, it passed unnoticed.” (E)

“Lindsay failed to stop a long shot from Walker and it was 3 to 1.” (E)

“Patrick relieved, but was checked by Walker who tried one of his long shots and scored from almost centre ice. This was the undoing of Victoria, as Torontos outplayed them from then until the call of time.” (E)

^ Interesting that it says 'one of his' long shots, like the implication is that Walker is known for trying long shots.

“... Marshall got away for a rush after taking a pass from Walker. The two went down together, and in watching Walker at centre Marshall was overlooked, which afforded him an opportunity to score, which again placed Torontos in the lead.” (E)

Hap Holmes

Undoubtedly the star of the game. Happy was everywhere in the game summaries. And, as well as Holmes played, Bert Lindsay appears to have played as poorly.

“In the Toronto nets Holmes, unaffected by any stage fright, [unintelligible] turned aside a dozen shots aimed at him by Poulin, Genge or Dunderdale.” (E)

“... Holmes turned away two or three dangerous mix-ups from his nets before the period ended.” (E)

“The Victorias came down time and time again and simply bombarded the Toronto nets, but could not beat Holmes.” (W)

“Holmes, the Toronto goalkeeper, was forced to put up the game of his life in stopping the spectacular rushes.” (W)

“Genge was showing to advantage, but Holmes was doing wonderful work.” (W)

“Satisfied that the game was won Marchand was sent in by Manager Marshall to replace Holmes, and the Toronto goaler was given an ovation when he skated off the ice.” (E)

^ This quote is later contradicted by The Gazette, who stated it was Claude Wilson who replaced Holmes at the end of the game with the result in hand, rather than who I presume to be Raymond Marchand. Marchand was also named in an above quote, which came from the same paper as this quote. Wilson is probably the correct goaler, but I included this because of the mention of an ovation, which I believe is likely true.

“In the nets Lindsay was the weak spot of the western outfit, he allowing two long shots to pass him, while at the other end Holmes played almost a flawless game.” (W)

^ Long shots... a real problem for those net-tenders on the Coast!

“According to telegrams that have been received from the Victoria players, the Pacific coast champions are just as confident as ever that they can return with the Stanley cup. The players state in their wires that the Torontos were lucky to hold the Victoria team down to two goals, Holmes being the great factor in the win of the Toronto club.” (W)

“Next to McNamara, Harry Holmes, in goal for the locals, was the shining star. Holmes had more work to do than Lindsay, but he did it well, while, on the other hand, Lindsay let several easy ones get by him.” (E)

“The wonderful work of Holmes in the Toronto nets broke the hearts of the Victoria players in the third period, the former Parkdale boy blocking seemingly impossible shots.” (W)

“Five to two for Toronto hardly reflects the credit due the Victoria team for their work in the opening game of the world's series Saturday. With a bit more luck the score might easily have been reversed. The visitors in the first and second periods shaded the NHA champions and but for the marvellous work of Holmes, who gave one of the best exhibitions of goal keeping ever witnessed on the local team, the westerners would have piled up a substantial lead in the three periods.” (W)

Harry Cameron

And then... there's our favourite problem child, Harry Cameron. His absence in the lineup above is conspicuous, to say the least. I'll let the papers explain what happened - in frustratingly vague language.

“It was freely rumored that Cameron wasn't in shape to play hockey early in the day and that his absence from the line-up was due to this fact.” (E)

“McNamara replaced Cameron on the local defence, and although not as speedy a player as regular rushed just as well and used good judgment when close in on the visitors' goal.” (E)

“The ginger and snap of former games here this season was sadly lacking, although at that the Toronto defence bodied better than they have all season, but this was accounted for by the fact that McNamara replaced Cameron.” (E)

“Cameron was kept on the bench throughout the match, he being disciplined by the club for an alleged misdemeanor on Friday. McNamara took his place at coverpoint, and proved himself a useful man, scoring two of the five goals through individual rushes.” (E)

"Playing under NHA rules the Vics were practically outclassed by the Toronto NHA title holders, despite the fact that the defenders of the 'mug' were without the services of Cameron, who was replaced by Geo. McNamara. Cameron was in uniform, but though Marshall used every spare available in the contest, for obvious reasons he did not deem it necessary to call upon his brilliant but erratic defence man.” (E)

And, of course, I was unable to find any further details. What on earth was Harry's deal? 'Obvious reasons'? Were the reporters unaware that amateur hockey historians 110 years later would not find these reasons to be obvious? Ugh.

Game 2 – PCHA Rules – Toronto Win 6-5

Victoria -
G – Lindsay
Point – Genge
Cover – L. Patrick
Rover - Poulin
Centre – Dunderdale
RW – Smaill
LW – Kerr

Torontos -
G – Holmes
Point – Marshall
Cover – Cameron
Rover - McGiffin
Centre – Foyston
RW – Wilson
LW – Walker

Summary -

1st
Torontos – Foyston
Torontos – Wilson
Victorias – Smaill
Victorias – Poulin
Torontos – Wilson

2nd
Victorias – Patrick
Victorias – Patrick
Victorias – Dunderdale

3rd
Torontos – McGiffin
Torontos – Foyston

Overtime
Torontos – McGiffin

Spoiler: Game Two Commentary

After the first game, the Westerners were out in full force with their excuses:

“That the Senators took the ice with a crippled team at Toronto is the impression gained from a letter which Phil Burnett sent to the coast... Lester Patrick and Jack Ulrich collided in practice last week, Lester sustaining a huge gash in his hip, while Ulrich took the count... Dubbie Kerr collided with Genge at the same workout and the Brockville youth was unable to go the full route in Saturday's match.” (W)

Whatever their health may have been, the Vics suffered a very similar fate in game two. Mixed reports on who carried play, but the consensus was that Hap Holmes stole the show once again. A lot of what I read on Holmes, both in contemporary reports and after-the-fact writings, suggest he was sort of 'along for the ride' much of the time, and that he was not more than just a steady net guardian. At least in 1914, that label can't apply to him. What a performance!

The main story of the game, however, is the adjustment made by the Torontos to the seven-man Coast system. Reviews from the East show that fans could give or take the rover position, which had only been banished from the Eastern pro game a few years earlier, but the offside rule proved enthralling to the locals. The Ottawa Citizen diagnosed the impact of the rule like so:

“The new offside rule in center ice came in for a good deal of attention from the 'fans' and the general opinion is that it is a good style for an old man's club, but not for a young team that has any speed. The latter, under the Western rules, have not a chance to show their true worth, as they are not able to use their speed to the most advantage, while, on the other hand, it favors slower players, who have only to possess a shot to be dangerous, as they can loaf around this section of the ice, grab the puck and then be within shooting distance.” (E)

And, the Vancouver Daily World admitted that the Torontos had less of a problem adjusting than anticipated:

“The Toronto puck-chasers showed that the western rules, seven-man team and absence of offside in centre ice was just as familiar to them as the eastern rules under which the first game of the series was played.

The western style with free passing in centre ice made an instantaneous hit with the public as well as with the Torontos who used it to almost as much advantage as the Westerners.” (W)

Scotty Davidson was gripped by 'the grippe' and was too sick to play. Noted 'Bad Man' Cully Wilson took his spot and didn't appear to make much impact. Toronto papers did not feel a need to whine about their own injury problems, with Davidson out and Harry Cameron iffy. Definitely a tough look for the Westerners.

Meanwhile, in Winnipeg... they still haven't figured it out that it's not two game, total goals, incorrectly reporting the series finished with the following headline:

“VICTORIA FAILS TO LIFT FAMOUS STANLEY TROPHY”

Tommy Dunderdale

The Aussie played a better game than before, but was still remarked to have not played quite up to standard. I'm interested in how he's frequently noted for a habit of shooting from too far out. This leads me to two deductions: one, he probably developed this habit because it actually worked on the Coast, and two, he probably wasn't much of a playmaker to turn his rushes into assists instead of shots on goal. The latter deduction matches with the general perception of him in this thread, from what I can tell.

"Genge and Dunderdale are the shining lights for the Victorias... Dunderdale is very tricky and can stand a lot of watching. He took possession of the puck many times by superb stickwork, and even penetrated the defence by his wonderful work in dodging players.” (E)

“In the last period Victoria had many chances with only one man to pass but preferred to shoot from outside the defence. Dunderdale was the worst offender in this respect. Holmes, who is generally weak on long shots, was not caught napping tonight.” (W)

^ Okay, so did every custodian of the time struggle on long shots?

“Patrick played beautiful hockey and was responsible for the visitors' first two tallies. Dunderdale gathered in the third after a beautiful display of stick handling.” (E)

“Dunderdale chopped Foyston over the head, and simultaneously McGiffen took a swipe at Genge, both being penalized.” (E)

“Dunderdale and Patrick put up a grand exhibition of the game, and they looked far better than on the first appearance.” (E)

“Dunderdale was flashy, but he shot from too far out.” (E)

“Tommy Dunderdale... is probably the best of the Victoria Stanley Cup hunters.” (E)

Frank Foyston

Foyston had a much more noticeable game this time around. Maybe it's due to the lack of Davidson meaning the inferior Cully Wilson had to round out the forward trio, but there's a lot of ink spilled on the duo of Foyston and Walker together, some of which I put in the Walker section. They definitely had chemistry.

"Foyston outplayed Dunderdale at center ice. The latter, like the other members of the visitor's forward line, showed up in the last period.” (E)

“Walker zigzagged his way from centre ice, centring to Wilson. Lindsay blocked and McGiffen scored on the rebound. The crowd yelled to tie it up, and, after eight minutes of heart-breaking play, Foyston responded with a long rush that took him to the goal mouth for the tying goal.” (E)

“The rubber went from end to end with Victoria having a full share of play until another thirteen minutes had gone by, when Foyston, by a clever bit of skating and stick handling, got inside and lodged the puck in a corner. Lindsay had no chance to save.” (W)

“Foyston and Walker started as usual with their terrific shooting and work around their opponents' defence.” (E)

“Cameron and Foyston were responsible for a rush which terminated in the final goal and the Toronto victory. They came up the ice together and evaded Genge and Patrick and Cameron shot, but Lindsay was equal to the occasion and shot the puck toward the side. McGiffen pounced on the rubber and placed it between the nets before Lindsay had time to recover and the game was over.” (W)

"Foyston was one of the brightest men on the ice.” (E)

“The forward line all played good hockey, but Foyston was the best on the attack. He handled the puck splendidly and unlike the Victoria forwards, he tried to get inside the defence before he shot. He was successful several times, the first goal being scored in this manner.” (E)

Jack Walker

Another steady game for Walker. No goals, but again is praised for his defence. The quote about him not rushing as much as usual is pretty much exactly how I've always imagined his playing style being. I wonder if, as he aged, he dropped the rushing more or less entirely. Based on his scoring numbers, that kind of has to be the case, doesn't it?

"Poulin at right wing gave Walker some trouble in the early part of the game, but the local forward stopped him with his famous hook check..."

^ Only his second professional season, and already famous for his hook check.

“...McGiffin, who was on regularly, was one of the stars of the night. Walker was a close second, while Holmes, Marshall and Cameron all did good work on the defence." (E)

“The Toronto forwards gave their defence great help by consistent back-checking. Foyston and Walker were the best in this play. The latter did not rush as much as usual. He contented himself with assisting the defence and making the pass to his teammates farther up the ice.” (E)

The following few paragraphs were from a Coast article on Walker, I guess written because of his shared bloodline with Bobby Genge. It's written in much more flowery language than a Western paper normally would for an enemy player, but they did manage to toss in some home-cooking in the last paragraph. 'Probably' helps his defence more than Dubbie Kerr? Come on...:

“Blood may be thicker than water, but apparently Jack Walker is not going to let the fact that he is a cousin of Bob Genge's stand in the way of any goals that he can score on the Victoria team in the present world series. Walker was very prominent in Saturday's victory over the coast champions and this youngster has proven one of the real stars of the Toronto club throughout the NHA season.

Walker is a very speedy skater and his hook check has worked havoc amongst the other clubs in the NHA. He is very clean and seldom draws a warning or fine for his playing, and he is about the most popular forward on the club.

... he is the logical choice as left wing for the eastern all-star hockey selection. Just how he would stack up against Dubbie Kerr remains to be seen. Walker is a much more finished check and probably helps out his defence more, but he is not the individual star that Kerr is and is not there with the pinch-goals that are the specialty of the Victoria left wing.” (W)

^ And, I believe 'pinch-goals' are the 1910s equivalent of clutch scoring. I could be wrong on that, though.

Hap Holmes

Holmes continued his quest for the retro-retro Conn Smythe with another dazzling performance. Again, Bert Lindsay is just getting killed in this matchup. Interestingly, both a Toronto paper and the Victoria Daily Times offer an estimate on Holmes's workload for this game: Toronto claims he made ~50 saves, while Victoria gave more definitive numbers, with Holmes making 38 saves and Lindsay only saving 18.

“Luck played a considerable part in the deciding of the game. Victoria certainly deserved to win on the play, but the superb work of Holmes in goal offset their advantage in this particular, and the locals won out because of their ability to go the route in overtime. If Lindsay was in the same class as the Blueshirt net-tender the tale might have been different, but Holmes was not beaten once by shots from outside the defence, while the Westerner even let one from mid-ice get by him.” (E)

“Holmes saved the day for the Blueshirts with his great work in the nets, and too much can hardly be said in his praise.” (E)

“Toronto played more ragged hockey and displayed less combination than the Victorias who took numerous chances on shooting from outside defense, but Holmes beat them every time...” (W)

“The superiority of Harry Holmes over Bert Lindsay in goal had a lot to do with the locals' victory; in fact, had they been reversed the visitors would have had a comfortable margin at the finish. Holmes was again in rare form, and after the challengers had secured one goal, by batting in a rebound, his clearing was perfect. Indeed, his quickness in turning aside the rebound saved the goal time and time again. On the other hand, Lindsay allowed several easy shots to slip in, as he was very bad on anything to the side of the net. He stopped a few dangerous ones.” (E)

“Holmes in goal played an excellent game, and if there was one place where the locals were superior it was in the nets.” (E)

“The visitors in the first and second periods shaded the NHA champions and, but for the marvellous work of Holmes, who gave one of the best exhibitions of goal keeping ever witnessed on the local ice, the Westerners would have piled up a substantial lead in the three periods.” (W)

Harry Cameron

Cameron is back in action, but is clearly not in game form. His rushes may have been stymied most of the time, but as mentioned in Foyston's section, he did connect with Frank on a rush for the winning tally. It is interesting how he's described as having 'not been in game shape' and that Jack Marshall would be 'taking a chance' if he played Cameron. To me, that says his 'misdemeanor' from the first game must've been something related to his health. Was he known as a drinker? That's just speculation on my part.

“As a result of Davidson's absence, Holmes will be in goal with Marshall and McNamara on the defence. Harry Cameron with his speed and good shooting ability will hold down the position of rover, something new to the local 'fans' in professional hockey.” (E)

“The Torontos will be crippled tonight, as Allan Davidson is reported out of the game owing to an attack of grippe, and it is doubtful if Jack Marshall will take a chance on playing Harry Cameron. George McNamara, who was Toronto's strong man on Saturday, will again figure on the defence, while the line will consist of Walker, Wilson, Foyston, and probably Corbeau or Cameron.” (E)

“Marshall and Cameron were steady on the defence. Cameron had no success with his rushes, the extra man putting a stop to his circling.” (E)

“Since the series started the Blueshirts have met with all the misfortunes. They have lost Davidson through illness, and Cameron has not been in shape to play.” (E)

Game 3 – NHA Rules – Toronto Win 2-1

Victoria -
G – Lindsay
Point – L. Patrick
Cover – Genge
Centre – Dunderdale
RW – Poulin
LW – Kerr

Torontos -
G – Holmes
Point – Marshall
Cover – Cameron
Centre – Foyston
RW – Wilson
LW – Walker

Summary -

1st
None

2nd
Torontos – Foyston

3rd
Torontos – Cameron
Victorias – Kerr

Spoiler: Game Three Commentary

In what sounds like a truly miserable and awful game of ice hockey, the Toronto Blueshirts capture Lord Stanley's mug. It's unclear if Victoria wanted to take a pound of flesh from Toronto on their way home, or if Toronto felt a need to beat the Vics in the octagon as well as on the ice, but either way, it was a total donnybrook out there. Fights and dirty plays all game long. As always, both sides are in disagreement on who had the better of play. The main difference between this game and the first two was that the goaltending battle was much more even. In fact, Lindsay actually had a really good game.

Davidson was back in the lineup, but only as a sub, meaning this was the only game of the series where both teams were at full strength, on paper.

The game was won by Toronto's defence:

“The Victoria forwards did not locate the net with their usual skill, and this was their chief weakness throughout the entire series. The Senators presented a stonewall defense, only to have their forwards fall down on their numerous chances to score...

Toronto's defence was also in top form, and the contest was literally a game in which the tremendous share of the work was performed by the defense players.” (W)

Finally, a fitting conclusion to the battle fought in the press:

“Though beaten three straight the Victorias did not show any marked inferiority to their opponents.” (W)

“Good bye, Victoria, come again when the coast teams improve a little.” (E)

Tommy Dunderdale

Not good stuff here.

“The game opened up by Dunderdale and Cameron having a wrestling match...” (E)

^ That's it. That's the one time Dunderdale was mentioned in any game summaries, except for one passing mention where it's stated that he would soon be heading back home to Winnipeg. Where was he? A Victoria Daily Times article from a week later reveals the truth:

“[Rowe] says that Bert Lindsay had a couple of off nights and that made things look bad, while the Torontos secured the breaks through the series. The failure of Tommy Dunderdale to shine broke up the Victoria attack...

... Lester Patrick may see his way clear to make several trades that should benefit the champions. Bobby Rowe was used for the greater part of the Toronto series, Tommy Dunderdale playing but eighteen minutes of the third game.” (W)

^ In a close game, with the Stanley Cup on the line, Dunderdale was benched? It doesn't sound right, and I thought at first that he must've taken a ton of penalty minutes and missed out on ice time that way, but the game reports only mentioned the one tussle between him and Cameron. The Ottawa Citizen lists substitutions for the game, and they went like this for Tommy: he was sat for Rowe in the first, came back in for Rowe in the second, went back out for Patrick in the third and then came back in for Poulin to end the game. That's a lot of movement... his counterpart at centre, Foyston, played the full sixty minutes. So, I'm not sure what to think of it. It seems like Dunderdale really was benched for extended periods of time in this game. I'd have thought a rough-and-tumble game like this would be his specialty.

Also, this could be reading too much into it, but if Dunderdale was benched, then the following quote is potentially very damning:

“[Victoria's] entire forward line, with the exception of Poulin, displayed more speed and better judgment in handling the puck when close in on the nets, and Holmes was given plenty to do.” (W)

I'd assume in the case of Dunderdale's benching, he wouldn't be included amongst the forward line mentioned, meaning the line looked better without him. Again, could just be looking for something that isn't there.

One more for the road:

“Bobby Genge, the Victoria point man, made a big hit with Toronto fans. Tom Dunderdale could not get going and was a disappointment.” (W)

Frank Foyston

Foyston got better and better as the series progressed, if the summaries are to be believed. In a game with little real hockey being played, he seems to have avoided the rough stuff more than the rest of them, which is reflected in his playing the full sixty. You get the impression that Frank Foyston is a winning hockey player.

“Foyston again starred. He scored the first goal in the second period by a beautiful end to end rush.” (W)

“Foyston and Wilson were tireless workers, but had little chance against the heavy work of the husky defence.” (W)

“Foyston was again in the limelight with his brilliant stick handling.” (E)

“Foyston, who was the real hero of the series, tallied four goals, all of them on lone rushes." (W)

^ I'm unsure about Foyston's stat line. Wikipedia has him scoring two goals this series, the above quote has him with four, and unless I totally fell asleep on the scoring summaries he should only be credited with three.

Jack Walker

The Jack Walker of 1914 was a true all-around stud, on both offense and defense. It's curious how he never really came close to matching his offense from this season again. I thought maybe Scotty Davidson had been doing the heavy lifting on offense, but it's clear to me that Walker was more than capable of being an excellent offensive player on his own. That's not so much based on Scotty's performance, as he was not close to 100%, but more on Walker's performance plus the amount of reverence placed on his name versus Davidson's.

“Walker and Genge also took a flop, it perhaps being the first time here this season that Walker has used his body in a check.” (E)

“Walker had his fingers smashed in the third period, when Poulin took a slash at them while Walker was rushing...” (E)

“It would be difficult to single out any player in particular, on the night's play, so close was the checking. Walker, however, as usual, did a tremendous lot of useful backchecking, and was ably assisted by Foyston.” (E)

“Kerr was the bright star of the forward line, closely followed by Smaill. Davidson, Walker, and Holmes were the pick of the Toronto club.” (W)

“Walker proved the hardest man for the Victoria team to stop. He frequently secured the puck at his own goal, evaded the entire Victoria forward line, and then combined in with one of his team-mates for a shot.” (E)

“At a dinner tonight at the Ontario Club, given to President Emmett Quinn, of the NHA... President McCaffery, of the Toronto Ball club, who was one of the guests, stated that in view of the many past favors shown him by the local hockey clubs, especially the Toronto band of supporters, that he would, on behalf of the Toronto Ball Club, offer a trip south with his ball club to their training quarters to the most popular and most valuable man on the Toronto hockey team. A committee consisting of Percy Quinn, V.. McAree, and Jas. Norris was appointed, and they, like the fans, agreed that Jack Walker was the man who should take the trip, and therefore the popular Toronto player will leave in a few days for the south...” (E)

^ Here's a good one. You'd definitely sense that Hap Holmes was the star of the series for Toronto, but Jack Walker was voted (albeit by only a three-man panel) the most valuable Blueshirt. Based on the Victoria article after the second game, I'd say this is almost certainly a season-long award rather than an award for the series. Walker ended up turning down the invitation.

Hap Holmes

Holmes did not stand out like he did the first two games, but it's possible he didn't need to. Bert Lindsay actually had an excellent game, and it's remarked that if Lindsay had performed like this in the first two games, the result would've been very different. The difference appeared to have been in the long shots, which Lindsay was unable to fix until it was too late. Holmes would be my pick for series MVP.

“Holmes played steadily in goal, his work again featuring the game.” (W)

“Torontos' weight and superior shooting told the tale of last night's game, the Blue Shirts showing a much better attack, while Holmes was practically invulnerable.” (W)

Harry Cameron

Cameron was at the forefront of the physicality, and also received a brief mention for his trademark rushing ability. He scored the Cup-winning goal, but also was partly responsible for the Vics' lone goal. Not sure what to think of his series.

“'Skinner' Poulin, the 'bad man' of the coast, was right in his element... Once Harry Cameron swung around and 'beaned' him with his stick, but the Western player only shook his head and went right on playing.” (E)

“Genge also finished the last period, his retirement being due to a bump when Cameron met him with a body check as Genge was rushing.” (E)

“Torontos looked to have the game on ice, when Marshall and Cameron on a rush in the third period scored, the latter doing the trick. However, four minutes later and just after the puck had been faced, after Genge and Davidson had taken a trip to the fence for fighting, Dubbie Kerr rushed up the right side, got by Cameron and beat Holmes from a shot in close.” (E)

“Marshall and Cameron used their body more effectively than heretofore, the latter making sure of his man by skating right into him.” (E)

^ I assume this just means Cameron hits his man with a normal bodycheck, but the fact that they word it like this makes me think his hitting technique is unorthodox...

“Cameron was in his element with six men aside and electrified the crowd with his rushes. His shooting, too, was deadly.” (E)

I have one more interesting quote that doesn't really fit with the rest... after the series, a lot of praise is heaped upon Manager Jack Marshall, the 'come-back' veteran of the team. One article mentions how Marshall deserves even more credit because he was forced to deal with the two biggest headcases in the league:

"As a manager, [Marshall] achieved a magnificent success in spite of the fact that he had the worst actors in the league to handle in Davidson and McGiffen. The former is inclined to resent the discipline of training while the latter has supplanted Joe Hall as the 'bad man' of the NHA.”

Wait, what? Scotty Davidson, the future fallen war hero, is listed, instead of the dude who sat on the bench for an entire evening because of a 'misdemeanor'? Like so many quotes from these 110 year old newspapers, it'll have to be filed in the 'I don't know what to make of this' department.

-----

So what can we make of the rest of it? I don't want to draw too much of a conclusion on these players from a three game sample size, but I have a few takeaways.

- Of all the five players I looked at, Tommy Dunderdale was probably the one who was closest to his peak in 1914, yet he also comes away looking the worst here. ResilientBeast opined earlier that he might be a 'bad team good stats' guy and I do not believe Tommy beat those allegations with his performance here. We can look back now and say that Toronto had a much better team on paper, and that having Jack Walker and Scottie Davidson as your wingers is a sweeter gig than having Dubbie Kerr and Skinner Poulin, but I'd still hope for better from Dunderdale here. Bobby Genge and Lester Patrick are both described as having had excellent series from the back-end, and the offense is described as having been a big problem. Dunderdale should wear a good amount of that.

- Harry Cameron is a tough nut. I actually wasn't aware that he was already up to something in 1914, I figured his headcase status wasn't earned until the late 1910s. The series is basically a write-off for him, yet his team wins easily, and McNamara plays a great game as his replacement. It's not the best look, but he does have two other Cups to lean on, both of which were probably closer to his peak than this one was. I don't think it will change much how I rank him.

- Foyston comfortably outplayed Dunderdale. Again, there's the thing about his wingers being a lot better, but still. Foyston was not yet in his prime and was already getting rave reviews as an offensive centre with a good defensive conscience. Him and Walker really worked well together, and I come away unsurprised that they enjoyed a lot of good years on the same line.

- This looks to have been Walker's offensive peak, he's already famous for his defense, and he was named best Blueshirt. How many players left for voting have been the best player on a Cup winner? Honest question, it may be more than I can think of off the top of my head - or it may not.

- Hap Holmes is probably the player whose stature improved the most with me after this. I haven't had him in my top 10 yet, but he'll be up there now. Coast league goaltending smells a bit fishier now than it did before. Bert Lindsay being unable to handle long shots, Hugh Lehman apparently having a weakness for long shots, Tommy Dunderdale favouring long shots off the rush... Lester Patrick is, at one point, noted for the booing he receives from the crowd after attempting a long shot from centre ice. To me, it's a tough look. Then again, Holmes is mentioned as sometimes being weak on long shots. Maybe the definition of a 'long shot' back in those times was just anything that wasn't coming from the slot?

- As I said, Scotty Davidson may or may not show up for voting. And I really don't want to make grand judgments based on three games. But when we're talking about a player who was done with hockey at 23, it's not quite as bad. I expected his name to be spoken with awe, and reverence. There's none of that. Walker and Cameron are clearly bigger stars in Toronto, and Marshall is more respected. I think Davidson might just be a good young player who died a hero's death. Now, enough about ineligible players - I need to go to sleep.

 

[rmartin65]

Good stuff, @Dr John Carlson . The praise for Holmes and Walker really jumps off the page for me.

Small sample caveats apply, but Dunderdale already didn't have much of a case IMO, and this did nothing to help his argument.

I think it probably hurts Cameron a little bit- again, small sample size, other seasons to consider, etc, but Holmes seemed much more valuable than Cameron. Walker, too, actually.

Interesting point on Davidson- without having gone further into his career, I'm wondering if this is one of those times where the legend of the player has kind of overshadowed the player's actual ability. Then again, he shows up on a couple of those best of all time lists, so maybe not.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I went back to the HOH Top defensemen project where Grant was a candidate at the end, and it seems most of what was posted about him came from Joe Pelletier's article: Stanley Cup Legends: Mike Grant.

Not exactly the strongest stuff.

I also think that part of the case from Grant is just that he and Dan Bain were the earliest players to make the HHOF, while the "bullet point" evidence for Grant's greatness (statistics & contribution to championships) is better for Grant than for Bain.

 

[rmartin65]

I also think that part of the case from Grant is just that he and Dan Bain were the earliest players to make the HHOF, while the "bullet point" evidence for Grant's greatness (statistics & contribution to championships) is better for Grant than for Bain.

How much did the HoF panel actually see of Grant and Bain (and really all of the pre-1900 players), though?

If Wikipedia is to be believed, the first board of governors consisted of Red Dutton (born 1897), Art Ross (born 1885), Frank Sargent (born 1902), Lester Patrick (born 1883), Abbie Coo (born 1885), Wes McKnight (born 1909), Basil O'Meara (born 1892) J.P. Fitzgerald (no clue on year of birth; reportedly spent 47 years at the Toronto Evening Telegram before dying in 1945, so he was of working age by 1898 at the latest- although, now that I think about it, this means he was dead by the time Grant was voted in), and W.A. Hewitt (born 1875)- that's maybe... what, 1-3 people who may be able to have seen and been able to hold an opinion on 1890s players? And how many of them had clear recollections of all these players 50-60 years later?

Changing topics here (but I may as well include it in this post, since it will just be auto-merged anyway)- what is the case for LeSueur over Holmes besides the 1925 list?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Changing topics here (but I may as well include it in this post, since it will just be auto-merged anyway)- what is the case for LeSueur over Holmes besides the 1925 list?

To avoid auto-merge, wait about 10 minutes between posts. Great "feature" of the current software.

It's not just the 1925 list. it's all the mentions of LeSueur in those greatest of all time lists too. But if course, they could be overrating him as the goalie of a dynasty.

Good chance both goalies will both be in the top half of my list this round.

 

[rmartin65]

To avoid auto-merge, wait about 10 minutes between posts. Great "feature" of the current software.

Oh, neat. Thanks!

It's not just the 1925 list. it's all the mentions of LeSueur in those greatest of all time lists too. But if course, they could be overrating him as the goalie of a dynasty.

Aren’t most of those mentions from Taylor (a former teammate)?

Lester Patrick mentions him as well, but I’m the same breath as Moran.

Good chance both goalies will both be in the top half of my list this round.

I’m struggling with my list this go around. Lots of good cases have been made for a lot of the players eligible this round, and I’m trying to not be swayed by whatever argument I read most recently.