Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 5

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ResilientBeast

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  • Art Ross
  • Babe Dye
  • Bernie Morris
  • Didier Pitre
  • Frank Foyston
  • George Hay
  • Hap Holmes
  • Harry Cameron
  • Harvey Pulford
  • Herb Gardiner
  • Jack Walker
  • Joe Simpson
  • Mike Grant
  • Percy LeSueur
  • Reg Noble
  • Tommy Dunderdale

So of the candidates here from the west it's a weird mix.

Dunderdale is going to take over the Dye spot of goal scoring only forward who gets NR'd for multiple rounds.

From Dreak's bio.

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 1st(1913), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 3rd(1914), 5th(1918), 6th(1915), 6th(1922), 9th(1921), 10th(1917)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1913), 1st(1914), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 4th(1915), 4th(1916), 4th(1918), 6th(1917), 7th(1922), 10th(1921)
PCHA Assists – 2nd(1920), 3rd(1913), 3rd(1915), 4th(1914), 5th(1918), 5th(1921), 6th(1922)

His two PCHA "Art Ross" seasons are the first season Taylor was in the league and then after Taylor was effectively done as an elite player.

The 1920 season is some what impressive as he managed to beat Foyston's best offensive season. They each had 26 goals (10 more than Doc Roberts) in only 22 games but Dunderdale managed to record more assists to break the tie.

I'll make a half hearted early case for Dunderdale later tonight/tomorrow but I don't think he stands out in a poor way amongst this group. His scoring was strong for early PCHA then a lull when he moves to Portland before he managed one more peak season in 1920 back in Victoria.

Leading the 1914 PCHA in goals is also a strong achievement, tying Taylor in identical GP though he did finish 3rd in scoring behind Taylor and Kerr (a teammate)
 

ResilientBeast

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Jack Walker's case will all hinge on how we feel about contemporary praise for defensive play because is offense is bad. I generally think Walker was probably the second most impactful defensive player of the era behind Nighbor. How much is that worth? Not sure

He definitely doesn't get nearly the praise for his systematic impact in Seattle papers that Nighbor gets overall.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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So of the candidates here from the west it's a weird mix.

Dunderdale is going to take over the Dye spot of goal scoring only forward who gets NR'd for multiple rounds.

From Dreak's bio.

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 1st(1913), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 3rd(1914), 5th(1918), 6th(1915), 6th(1922), 9th(1921), 10th(1917)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1913), 1st(1914), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 4th(1915), 4th(1916), 4th(1918), 6th(1917), 7th(1922), 10th(1921)
PCHA Assists – 2nd(1920), 3rd(1913), 3rd(1915), 4th(1914), 5th(1918), 5th(1921), 6th(1922)

His two PCHA "Art Ross" seasons are the first season Taylor was in the league and then after Taylor was effectively done as an elite player.

The 1920 season is some what impressive as he managed to beat Foyston's best offensive season. They each had 26 goals (10 more than Doc Roberts) in only 22 games but Dunderdale managed to record more assists to break the tie.

I'll make a half hearted early case for Dunderdale later tonight/tomorrow but I don't think he stands out in a poor way amongst this group. His scoring was strong for early PCHA then a lull when he moves to Portland before he managed one more peak season in 1920 back in Victoria.

Leading the 1914 PCHA in goals is also a strong achievement, tying Taylor in identical GP though he did finish 3rd in scoring behind Taylor and Kerr (a teammate)
Jack Walker's case will all hinge on how we feel about contemporary praise for defensive play because is offense is bad. I generally think Walker was probably the second most impactful defensive player of the era behind Nighbor. How much is that worth? Not sure

He definitely doesn't get nearly the praise for his systematic impact in Seattle papers that Nighbor gets overall.

Sorry about the weird quote format, but I'm tired of fixing things like that manually.

Anyway, would you agree that Foyston/Morris are a step up from Dunderdale/Walker as overall players?

To me, one big difference between Dye and Dunderdale was that Dye at least had longevity as a one-dimensional goal scorer; Dunderdale didn't even have have that.

I'm actually really interested in a Foyston/Morris comparison. It was pretty eye opening last round when you posted just how much Morris beat Foyston in scoring in the regular season, but of course the case for Foyston rests largely on the playoffs.
 
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tarheelhockey

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So of the candidates here from the west it's a weird mix.

Dunderdale is going to take over the Dye spot of goal scoring only forward who gets NR'd for multiple rounds.

From Dreak's bio.

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 1st(1913), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 3rd(1914), 5th(1918), 6th(1915), 6th(1922), 9th(1921), 10th(1917)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1913), 1st(1914), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 4th(1915), 4th(1916), 4th(1918), 6th(1917), 7th(1922), 10th(1921)
PCHA Assists – 2nd(1920), 3rd(1913), 3rd(1915), 4th(1914), 5th(1918), 5th(1921), 6th(1922)

His two PCHA "Art Ross" seasons are the first season Taylor was in the league and then after Taylor was effectively done as an elite player.

The 1920 season is some what impressive as he managed to beat Foyston's best offensive season. They each had 26 goals (10 more than Doc Roberts) in only 22 games but Dunderdale managed to record more assists to break the tie.

I'll make a half hearted early case for Dunderdale later tonight/tomorrow but I don't think he stands out in a poor way amongst this group. His scoring was strong for early PCHA then a lull when he moves to Portland before he managed one more peak season in 1920 back in Victoria.

Leading the 1914 PCHA in goals is also a strong achievement, tying Taylor in identical GP though he did finish 3rd in scoring behind Taylor and Kerr (a teammate)

I wonder how much Dunderdale's reputation might be suppressed from playing in Portland and Victoria, by far the weak sisters of the PCHA, as well as other "small market" organizations.

In his career, Dunderdale got the following team results:

Manitoba Hockey League
1907 (Winnipeg Strathconas) - 5th place out of 5, no playoffs
1908 (Winnipeg Strathconas) - 3rd place out of 3 that finished the season, no playoffs
1909 (Winnipeg Shamrocks) - Weird season... Shamrocks merged with another team and then won a 2-team league with an identical record and 1 better goal differential than the other team.

Canadian Hockey Association
1910 (Montreal Shamrocks) - 4th place out of 5

National Hockey Association
1910 (Montreal Shamrocks) - 6th place out of 7, no playoffs
1911 (Quebec Bulldogs) - 5th place out of 5, no playoffs

Pacific Coast Hockey Association
1912 (Victoria Senators) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1913 (Victoria Senators) - 1st place out of 3, no playoffs
1914 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 1st place out of 3, lost Stanley Cup challenge to Toronto
1915 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1916 (Portland Rosebuds) - 1st place out of 3, lost Stanley Cup challenge to Canadiens
1917 (Portland Rosebuds) - 3rd place out of 4, no playoffs
1918 (Portland Rosebuds) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1919 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1920 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1921 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1922 (Victoria Cougars) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1923 (Victoria Cougars) - 2nd place out of 3, lost 2-game playoff to Vancouver

Western Canada Hockey League
1924 (Saskatoon Crescents/Edmonton Eskimos) - 3rd place and 4th place out of 4, respectively

Outside of 1913-1916, that's just a very grim career as far as team situation is concerned. While the Taylors and MacKays were playing legendary Stanley Cup series against the best of the East, Dunderdale was only rarely on a .500 team in an era when only one or two teams per league would experience a postseason.

Of course the other side of the coin is, maybe Dunderdale's teams would have won more if he were a better player. It does seem that he had a decent peak circa 1913/1914, but outside of those years he was not quite in the top tier of PCHA scoring. In the back nine of his career, he didn't really distinguish himself as a scorer from his teammate Eddie Oatman (perhaps an underrated player in his own right, but still), except for that massive 1920 season where he and Foyston were miles ahead of everyone.

Difficult player to pin down.
 

ResilientBeast

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Sorry about the weird quote format, but I'm tired of fixing things like that manually.

Anyway, would you agree that Foyston/Morris are a step up from Dunderdale/Walker as overall players?

To me, one big difference between Dye and Dunderdale was that Dye at least had longevity as a one-dimensional goal scorer; Dunderdale didn't even have have that.

I'm actually really interested in a Foyston/Morris comparison. It was pretty eye opening last round when you posted just how much Morris beat Foyston in scoring in the regular season, but of course the case for Foyston rests largely on the playoffs.

I'll post some more tonight when I have my spreadsheets available to me and a lot of Dunderdale's case is going to look a lot like what @tarheelhockey posted below. But it's not like Dunderdale's team lacked talent overal.

I wonder how much Dunderdale's reputation might be suppressed from playing in Portland and Victoria, by far the weak sisters of the PCHA, as well as other "small market" organizations.

In his career, Dunderdale got the following team results:

Manitoba Hockey League
1907 (Winnipeg Strathconas) - 5th place out of 5, no playoffs
1908 (Winnipeg Strathconas) - 3rd place out of 3 that finished the season, no playoffs
1909 (Winnipeg Shamrocks) - Weird season... Shamrocks merged with another team and then won a 2-team league with an identical record and 1 better goal differential than the other team.

Canadian Hockey Association
1910 (Montreal Shamrocks) - 4th place out of 5

National Hockey Association
1910 (Montreal Shamrocks) - 6th place out of 7, no playoffs
1911 (Quebec Bulldogs) - 5th place out of 5, no playoffs

Pacific Coast Hockey Association
1912 (Victoria Senators) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1913 (Victoria Senators) - 1st place out of 3, no playoffs
1914 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 1st place out of 3, lost Stanley Cup challenge to Toronto
1915 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1916 (Portland Rosebuds) - 1st place out of 3, lost Stanley Cup challenge to Canadiens
1917 (Portland Rosebuds) - 3rd place out of 4, no playoffs
1918 (Portland Rosebuds) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1919 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1920 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1921 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1922 (Victoria Cougars) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1923 (Victoria Cougars) - 2nd place out of 3, lost 2-game playoff to Vancouver

Western Canada Hockey League
1924 (Saskatoon Crescents/Edmonton Eskimos) - 3rd place and 4th place out of 4, respectively

Outside of 1913-1916, that's just a very grim career as far as team situation is concerned. While the Taylors and MacKays were playing legendary Stanley Cup series against the best of the East, Dunderdale was only rarely on a .500 team in an era when only one or two teams per league would experience a postseason.

Of course the other side of the coin is, maybe Dunderdale's teams would have won more if he were a better player. It does seem that he had a decent peak circa 1913/1914, but outside of those years he was not quite in the top tier of PCHA scoring. In the back nine of his career, he didn't really distinguish himself as a scorer from his teammate Eddie Oatman (perhaps an underrated player in his own right, but still), except for that massive 1920 season where he and Foyston were miles ahead of everyone.

Difficult player to pin down.

Agreed, I'll post similar table for all of our available forwards this round just we can see all the same data on all the same guys
 
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rmartin65

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@rmartin65 do you remember off hand how much rover Ross ended up playing? Was it significant?
I can’t speak for his time in Brandon and Kenora, but I believe he was mostly a rover with Montreal Westmount in 1905, then returned to the East as a point with the Montreal Wanderers in 1908.

I’m curious what happened from 1911-13, as that’s quite a spike in goal totals for Ross.
 
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Professor What

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We're getting to the point in the project where it has to be said that we have been really generous to the NHA/PCHA era and tough on anything before that.

In one respect, we are up against the constraints of the project (i.e. which players are eligible for voting), but I think there's this prevailing mindset that, as soon as you see players like McKay and Keats go in, you immediately think, "ok, now it's time for Foyston to get voted in, because he was almost as good", but just because the latter was true doesn't mean the former is.

I don't mean to pick on Foyston but if he goes in 1st this round he'll be the 8th 1890-1894 birthday to be voted in. Meanwhile, we have just 4 players voted in from the 2nd half of the 1880s, five from the first half of the 1880s and just one from anytime before that.

Available in this round are two true studs of their era, Harvey Pulford and Mike Grant. And the best goalie of his time, Percy LeSueur. The 4th best goalie of his own generation, Hap Holmes, has a big discussion and voting headstart on him. Is that fair?
I was pretty high on Grant and Pulford in the last vote, and the way you expressed things there makes me feel even more strongly about it. I think we need to be careful not to ignore the early eras. I think I made that mistake in my original submission, and I question whether I adjusted enough in my final submission.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse to some extent because I've said things like this more than once before, but each generation of players builds on the generations before. Sure, they build higher in some cases, and that needs to be recognized, but they'd have nowhere to build if not for the foundational guys, and they'd have to clear the land themselves, meaning they wouldn't be able to build as much as they did.

Grant and Pulford were giants, imo. If we want to give the amateur era a fair shake, which I feel we should, somebody from that time really needs to go in sooner, rather than later. These guys are the guys that we have available to us right now, and I think anyone would be hard pressed to say that they don't stack up well compared to the rest of the field we have at hand right now.

I'm not trying to pick on guys like Foyston or Cameron. As of right now, I have them firmly in my top five, and they've been discussed enough that I think it's going to be hard to dislodge them. I think it's time they go to, and based on the last vote, I suspect that they will. But can we really say that they meant the same to their generation as Grant and Pulford did? I don't really think anyone would argue that they did. Now, that's only one aspect of the calculus involved, but it shouldn't be an insignificant one.

I'm not fortunate enough to be able to afford a newspapers.com subscription at the moment, so I probably can't make the argument for these guys as well as others can, but everything I've read about them says that they were total studs, even if Pulford wasn't the best skater. They did what was asked of them incredibly well, and in Grant's case in a way that few before had done. For the time being, they're my top two in this round, and I'd strongly encourage everyone to at least try to find a place for them in the top 5.
 
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nabby12

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I'm in the minority and slightly biased, but I've always had Dan Bain ahead of or on-par with Mike Grant.

Here is Bain's chapter from my book "Golden Boys: The Top 50 Manitoba Hockey Players of All Time". Enjoy.

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Dan Bain is the one and only player on this Manitoba Top 50 list that was a part of the extreme primitive years of the sport. To this day, Dan and his Winnipeg Victorias are still the most successful hockey team in Manitoba history, winning three Stanley Cup's in 1896, 1901 and 1902. The very muscular Bain was the star player for all three Cup wins, providing scoring, playmaking and a physical presence. Most importantly he was blessed with natural leadership qualities that helped guide his troops to the Cup.

Winnipeg played such a big role in hockey history, being the first Western city to have success in a sport that had previously been dominated solely by the east. And Dan Bain was at the centre of it all.

A hockey player, figure skater, roller skater, cyclist, gymnast, and trap shooter all rolled into one, Dan Bain is without a doubt one of Canada's greatest all-time athletes despite playing only as an amateur, never turning pro.

At 6'0'', 185 lbs, Bain was considered a very big man for his day and it helped make him one of the finest playmakers of the pre-NHL era. Bain's out-of-this-world sporting career was recognized when he was selected as Canada's most outstanding athlete of the last half of the 19th century.

Donald Henderson (Dan) Bain was born in Belleville, Ontario on August 15th 1874. He moved to Winnipeg with his family at the age of six. The second-youngest of seven children, Bain grew up in a nice two-storey house at 168 Fort Street and attended a nearby public school. He later earned a baccalaureate degree from Manitoba College, a Presbyterian institution that was situated near where the University of Winnipeg stands today.

Bain's athletic prowess was first put on display in 1887 at the age of thirteen when he won the Manitoba provincial roller skating championship. Four years later, he was named Manitoba's all-around gymnastics champion. Dan cycled as well competitively and won the provincial racing crown in three straight years (1894-1896). In 1903, Bain travelled to Toronto where he won the Canadian Trapshooting title. He was also an active lacrosse player and golfer, but

Bain's best-known sporting achievements come from hockey.

When the sport of hockey was introduced from out east, Bain was eager to learn the game. He joined the Winnipeg Victorias after reading an ad in a local newspaper soliciting new players and ended up playing eight seasons for them, including three as team captain, becoming one of hockey's greatest players in the process. Dan played Centre for the Victorias' team that won Stanley Cup's in 1896, 1901 and 1902.
It all started while Dan and his Winnipeg Victorias were touring Montreal, they visited the Montreal Victorias clubhouse and saw their trophy case that held this particular piece of silverware called the Stanley Cup. It caught everyone's eye. They hadn't heard of it before and when they found out that any team could challenge for the Cup, they became very interested.

On this eastern tour, Winnipeg was given the title 'Champions of Canada,' because they beat everybody they played. At the start of the 1895-96 season, there was talk of the Winnipeg team wanting to challenge for the Stanley Cup. This didn't go down well with most eastern folk, notably the Montreal contingent.

The success of the Victorias eastern tour had shown that a Manitoba association team should have every right to compete for the Canadian championship. The Manitoba Hockey Association secretary, Mr. Code, sent a letter suggesting the winner of the eastern association should play the winner of the Manitoba association. They eagerly waited for a reply, but nothing came. The Vics' who were showered with praise during the previous season, were not basically being given the cold shoulder.

All this waiting only helped fuel the Winnipeg Victorias' passion to challenge for the Cup. Eventually they sent an official challenge for the Stanley Cup to its trustees, Sheriff Sweetland and P.D. Ross. A western team had never challenged for the Cup before, so they were entering unchartered territory.
When the Victorias made the challenge they had no idea if they would be given the chance to playoff for the Cup. The decision was solely given to the Cup trustees. The Winnipeg club had requested a best-of-three series against the champion Montreal Victorias because of the fact that if they were going to travel all the way to Montreal, they should at least play more than one game.

At that time however the Stanley Cup challenge was decided by one game, and when the trustees finally accepted Winnipeg's challenge, they sided with Montreal in having a one game playoff for the Cup as opposed to the best-of-three series that Winnipeg had proposed.
"The Victorias of Winnipeg realize that they will have their work cut out to win the Cup," wrote the Manitoba Free Press, "but will be in fine condition by the date of the game."

Feburary 14th 1896 was the date of the match at the Victoria Skating Rink and Winnipeg arrived in town by train. The game began and Winnipeg led 2-0 at the halfway point of the game thanks to goals by Dan Bain and Colin Campbell. They proceeded to play defensive all throughout the second half of the game and won 2-0, with Bain being credited with the Cup winning goal.

"The battle was a fierce one, and the victory hovered long over the heads of the contestants before she decided to settle finally on the banners of the men from the west," wrote the Winnipeg Tribune. "This was the first time the eastern men had to submit to a defeat at the hands of comparative babies in the art of hockey, and yet it was not only a defeat, but a complete whitewash."

Winnipeg wasn't even viewed as a threat going into the match.

"(Montreal) acknowledged that the westerners would put up a very good game, but they would not take the Cup with them back to Winnipeg," wrote the Tribune. "The Montrealers went to bed lonely, sadder and wiser men."

Fellow hockey author Richard Brignall writes that, "Not only did the Montreal team lose the Stanley Cup, but people also lost all the bets they made on them. It was popular to gamble on sports at this time. The people of Montreal put their money on a hometown victory. They all went home with empty pocketbooks. The Winnipeg contingent on the other hand had enough money to start a private bank. They put all their money on the Winnipeg seven. Their gamble paid off. No less than $2,000 in Winnipeg winnings were passed over Montreal's Windsor Hotel counter after the Stanley Cup match."
Goaltender Whitey Merritt was the first to return home from Montreal and he had to bring with him a description of what the Cup looked like since Montreal wouldn't let the Victorias take it back with them. "The Stanley Cup is in the form of a punch bowl," said Merritt. "It is of sterling silver and has about a two gallon capacity."

When the rest of the players returned to Winnipeg they were pulled on sleighs through the city by their adoring fans. The Stanley Cup victory was unfortunately short-lived as Montreal came to Winnipeg in December of 1896 and defeated Bain's Vics'.

In 1899, Winnipeg challenged Montreal again and this time they played a two-game total goals series. Montreal won game one 2-1. Bain injured his eye during the game and was forced to miss the second game due to haemorrhaging behind the eye.

The second game wasn't completed due to a major controversy that arose. Winnipeg had always maintained a strict level of professionalism and class at all times so when one of Montreal's players violently slashed Winnipeg's Tony Gingras and the Montreal player was only given a two minute penalty despite Gingras being carried off the ice, Winnipeg left the ice in protest and headed to their dressing room. Referee Bill Findlay felt insulted and abruptly left the arena to go home, but returned after officials followed him on a sleigh and convinced him to come back. Once back at the rink, Findlay gave Winnipeg fifteen minutes to return to the ice to finish the game. Winnipeg refused and thus Findlay disqualified them and awarded Montreal as winners of the Stanley Cup.

Winnipeg got back in the winner's circle in 1901 when they challenged and defeated the powerhouse Montreal Shamrocks in two straight games. On January 31st 1901, the Winnipeg Victorias and Montreal Shamrocks played the first overtime game in Stanley Cup history. Despite wearing a rudimentary wooden mask to protect a broken nose, Bain scored the winning goal in overtime to give the Victorias a 2-1 win and more importantly the Stanley Cup.

Bain scored three goals in the two games for Winnipeg.

The Victorias won their third Stanley Cup when they defended it in January of 1902 in a two-game series from the upstart Toronto Wellingtons. Just two months later, Winnipeg met the Montreal Athletic Amateur Association, winners of the first-ever Stanley Cup challenge in 1893 in a best-of-three series. Winnipeg won the first game, but fell in back-to-back games to give the Cup back to Montreal. In the newspapers, Bain was heralded as the best player on the ice throughout the series.

Bain retired shortly after losing the Cup in early 1902. He finished with 10 goals in 11 Stanley Cup challenge games and 66 goals in 27 Manitoba league games, leading the league on three occasions. He was only 28 years old so it's under speculation why he quit when entering what should have been the prime of his career. Goldsborough writes, "It is possible the demands of his growing business interests required greater attention, or he might have simply wanted to retire before the inevitable decline. A curious but unsubstantiated rumour passed down by the Bain family is that he quit after a grisly accident caused by a flying puck."

He stayed in the game as the Honorary President and Coach of the Winnipeg Victorias well into the 1910's. Bain stopped playing team sports, but continued to skate for many years. In 1930 at the age of 56 he won the Canadian figure skating championship in the pairs competition. He continued to appear in pairs exhibition performances until the age of 70.

Manitoba historian Gordon Goldsborough writes that, "Bain was a resolute amateur, and as he grew older, he was increasingly vocal that the quality of hockey play had deteriorated as the game was taken over by professionals lacking stamina and skill. Bain derided the use of protective equipment; in his day, players wore nothing but skates and a uniform. During Bain's playing career, the team played the entire game without substitution, in marked contrast to regular shift changes that characterize modern hockey."

After hockey, Bain became a prominent Winnipeg entrepreneur and businessman. As the President of Donald H. Bain Limited, a grocery brokerage firm with offices across Canada, Dan became very successful in his professional life and amassed a substantial fortune. In 1906, shortly after his father's death, Dan bought the three-storey Waghorn House at 69 East Gate in the reclusive Armstrong's Point neighbourhood of Winnipeg. In 1932, he constructed Mallard Lodge as a retreat for hunting and relaxation on his large property on the Delta Marsh at Lake Manitoba. He spent lots of time there over the years, surrounded by his cherished curly-coated retrievers. He also built a hunting lodge and farm at Grosse Isle.

Dan was one of the first automobile enthusiasts in Western Canada, owning thirteen vehicles at one point, among which were a bunch of fancy British sports models. Bain also helped found the original Winnipeg Winter Club. A life-long bachelor, Dan used to tell people that to be successful in life, you needed to avoid three things women, liquor, and politics.

In 1948, Bain became the first amateur player and one of the first Western Canadian players to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. He was elected posthumously to the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame in 1971.

Dan Bain died in his Winnipeg home at 69 East Gate on August 15th 1962. He was 88 years old and left behind an estate valued at just over one million dollars (eight million today). A lifelong bachelor as noted earlier, Bain left almost all of his fortune to various charities and former employees, with the remainder being given to relatives and friends.

Throughout his later life, Bain always proclaimed that the time that he played hockey was the best the sport has ever been: "Those were the days of real athletes," Bain recalled. "When we passed the puck never left the ice and if the wingman wasn't there to receive it, it was because he had a broken leg."
 

rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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I really hope we can vote in some of the early-era guys without having to resort to arguments revolving around quotas- I respect the era as much as anyone (hell, I'm trying to write a book about it), but I think setting an arbitrary quota to ensure that this era gets its due sets a bad precedent. These players deserve to be acknowledged based on their merits, not least of all because their successes and play inspired others and popularized the game.

Since I promised a quote about Pulford, I'll make a case for him now (this isn't every quote I have, but I think it is a good representation of the positives and negatives)

From Pulford's first AHAC game:

"The Ottawa defence was kept busy throughout, but they fought off the enemy in a rattling manner, the burden of the work being attended to by Weldy Young and Pulford. The latter played point for the first time and did most effective work. He is not a brilliant stick handler or skater, but a splendid check, and can interfere in a quiet, nice way without willfully hurting an opponent. He showed good judgement when things looked critical, and generally succeeded in stopping the many rushes of the Davidsons and Wallace.The latter played grandly in both halves”

“S. McDougall is a phenomenally fast skater and full of grit, his brother Joe, a thoroughly trained athlete, wicked checker and a cool player with only one fault, which is shared in by Pulford, he only plays with one hand”

From the rest of that first season (1894):

“Pulford played a consistently good game in front of goal, and is apparently the man the Ottawas have long needed for point”

“Nearly all the Montreal rushes that passed Young got to be very dangerous. Pulford tried hard enough, but he is not a first class skater… He was outclassed, and so was Joe McDougall, who lacked speed for the company he was in"

His next season (1895)-

“Pulford was not up to the mark, and it was only the excellent work of Young that prevented a bigger score against them”

“Chittick proved himself a splendid stop and a good checker, while Pulford took care of his man every time and spoiled many good shots”

“Pulford showed good head in front of the goals and did some fine checking, but was occasionally too tender with the puck. A good hard drive without loss of time would have saved considerable anxiety”

"‘Weldy’ Young lifted beautifully at cover, and Pulford was reliable at point"

“Pulford played a strong, careful game, using his stick and weight with good judgment, and was seldom very hard pressed”

1896-

“The Ottawa defence is a very strong one, and few chances are missed by either Young or Pulford, while Chittick is one of the coolest and best stops in the flags”

“Pulford did grand work when the Ottawas were minus their brilliant cover point’s services. So, also, did Kirby and Westwick, who played a splendid game throughout. When Young was on he played as brilliantly as usual, and there is no doubt that the three defence men of the Ottawas compose a back division that is the strongest in Canada”

“Young at point made no mistakes and he and Pulford both indulged in runs up the ice” (I believe this is the first mention of Pulford rushing- far earlier than what is popularly bandied about)

1897-

“Pulford was not particular how he stopped the puck or the man, but he stopped them just the same and caused the whistle to blow"

"Pulford as point did very little in that position"

1898-

“The match was a good exhibition, and at times some beautiful work was done by both teams, but when the ice got heavy and the pace slackened up, but even then there was plenty of excitement for the spectators by reason of the heavy checking indulged in. Young and Pulford were the leaders in this style of play and were not very particular how they stopped an opposing forward as long as they saved a score”

“The Ottawas defence put up a great game all the way through. Young and Pulford stopped the rushes well and lifted the puck with a great deal of judgment”

“Cope made some good stops in the second half, but was not very effective in the first half. Cope claimed, and a great many consider with considerable reason, that Pulford played too close in on him in the first half and that he did not get a proper show”

“Pulford is playing better this year than ever before”

“The play of both teams was characterized by a looseness and want of combination on the forward line. This was especially noticeable on the part of the visitors, who, though well served by Pulford and Young, were unable to do much with the puck when they did get it"

Pulford did not play in Senior hockey in 1899, but we have a good quote about him anyway-

"Pulford’s style of play would have proved most effective, and the Ottawas attribute their defeat largely to the fact that he was not on the team”

1900 (here is where, in my opinion, Pulford really starts to hit his stride as a player)-

“Stuart, at cover-point, was not up to form, and the Montreal forwards had little difficulty in going by. Pulford was a harder proposition, and as he was not very particular about his tactics, the Montreal forwards were somewhat abused"

"A great amount of defence work fell on Pulford, as the Montrealers frequently got inside of Stuart, and Pulford stopped them very effectively and sometimes quite roughly. Very few of the Montrealers made a second effort to go around Pulford"

“Pulford, at point, showed right good hockey and was ably supported by Duval, at cover. Pulford’s bringing out and centring to his line did much to steady the forwards, and might advantageously be adopted by many senior defence players"

" Pulford played effectively and did not have much trouble in breaking up the rushes of the Vic’s forwards"

1901-

“Pulford and Duval, besides doing good puck lifting, used their bodies to advantage”

"Pulford played a strong game, and besides helping to defend is own goal he always was on the lookout to put the Montreal goal in danger”

"Pulford is the same stronger player and is a difficult man to pass"

“... and while Pulford is probably the poorest skater playing first class hockey, he generally makes gains”

"In the earlier stages of the game Pulford used his body with telling force, but, according to Hoyle, and succeeded in instilling a wholesome fear into the visiting forward line”

"Pulford, if he would only stay at point, is at all times a resourceful player”

1903-

"All seemed, however, to have a very marked respect for Pulford and for this reason played rather too much on the side instead of going in on the flags”

“It was certainly an off night for Bouse, but these are bound to crop up with any player. Pulford did the best work on the defence. Harvey has by no means an enviable reputation as a clean hockey player, but to the majority of those present on saturday night his work was as free from rough house work as it could possibly be”

“Harvey Pulford never played better and it was through him that Ottawa scored at least one of its goals. He blocked his men and rushed when necessity demanded, with skill"

"Pulford and Moore on the defence played hard and rough hockey, but could not ‘lift’ the puck to any advantage, and did not play together"

"Arthur Moore and Harvey Pulford on the defence simply refused to allow the Montreal anyways near Bouse Hutton. They body-checked hard, and after the first few minutes Dickie Boon’s forwards were content to shoot at long range. Both lifted well, too, and kept their forwards well fed"

"Pulford and Hutton as usual played a reliable game. Pulford is a bad man to run against and this the Montrealers learned to regret”

"Pulford worked hard and his rushes up the ice put the Quebec poles in danger time after time"

“Pulford played a great game on the Ottawa defence, and many a good attack by Bowie, Russell and Allan was broken up by the big man”

"Bouse Hutton had little chance to show his skill, but Pulford was a second goal keeper. The number of shots he stopped was a surprise and when it began to grow the crowd yelled itself hoarse"

“The visitors seemed afraid to form and intimate acquaintance with Moore and Pulford, and for that reason their shooting was ineffective”

“On a couple of occasions Pulford lost the puck to Quebec when trying to carry it up the ice rather than lift it out”

"Harvey Pulford was a little selfish at times and seemed to have a particular desire to get even with the Quebec goalkeeper”

“Pulford played Saturday as if he was pretty close to that state known as ‘all in’, while it is an open secret that Hutton narrowly escaped being replaced by Cope. But Pulford is yet serviceable, and there are not many of the youngsters who would care to try conclusions with the big fellow"

“Pulford at point put up a careful game. He was perhaps too lenient about checking and although he went to the fence once he often let a Montreal forward off with less punishment that would have been admissible. He was reliable and always where he was needed. His rushes up the ice were surprises to many. Pulford is a fast skater and generally gets a clear rink when he starts out with the puck” (so I can show that Pulford's skating issues weren't speed after all!)

"Pulford was merciless with his body, and any one who came within his territory suffered severely”

“Pulford’s lifting is improving from game to game”

1904- I don't have much, due to Ottawa HC leaving the CAHL after 4 games

1905-

"Moore was almost ‘always in the way’ or Pulford would reach for the puck or the man and generally got what he reached for. If both failed, as they sometimes did, Finnie was on deck, with the finest exhibition of goaltending he has put up since he started to travel in senior company”

“Baker, the Wanderers’ goal keeper, had no sinecure, though Strachan in front of him, like Pulford, stopped many dangerous shots”

“Moore and Pulford also took matters easy and frequently allowed the opposing forwards to skate around the in a way which was surprising in view of their past performances”

Pulford was named to the fan-voted 1905 all-star team in 1905 at point. He was also named as the point on an unnamed Montreal man's all-star team that was published in 1905- "Pulford, point, and Moore, cover point. Both are strapping big men, they do not use boarding-school methods to handle the enemy as it sweeps down upon them. Pulford is a poor skater. That is his only weakness. But opposing teams fear him, as they fear no man on the ice, and Pulford's strenuous work in the defence of his goal net has earned him the endearing title of 'Butcher'."

1906-

“Pulford put up the same serviceable game as of old. He played perfectly in his position and when the attack lagged in their efforts he headed many a dangerous rush"

“Pulford proved himself to be as good if not better than ever and the years seem but to add to his activity. He was the best man on his side”

"Next the Smith brothers in excellence of play was Pulford, who put up a terrific game at point and not satisfied with playing his position kept going down the side or straight down the center with the rubber and leading the rush of the forwards on the Wanderer flags. He always got back in time however to save his own position”

"Pulford as usual was a prominent figure in all the defence plays and his rushes helped to disorganize the visitors”

"Pulford did not shine so much as in the Quebec match. He and Moore were too often beaten to make the club’s supporters feel very well, and it was only the very wonderful goal-keeping of Hague that saved many a score”

"Pulford had moved out to cover point early in the half, and he backed up the work of the three with rushes that carried the disc into close quarters”

"Haig was the best and did splendid work, while Pulford, as usual, showed that he had something in reserve at critical times"

“... Pulford playing one of the strongest games of his long and varied athletic career. He broke up most of the rushes, with stick or body, and inaugurated many an attack for the Ottawas”

"Pulford pulled off some sensational plays when he saw that the team was up against it, but at that stage Wanderers weren’t leaving many openings and even Harvey’s great speed, weight and stick-handling were ineffective" (interesting note about stickhandling)

"In the general result the most prominent factor was the play of Harvey Pulford. The veteran defence man was at best, and playing clean, if hard hockey, he was the rock on which split all the attempts of the Vics forwards to work in on the Ottawa nets. Changing places with Moore, he played throughout the game at the cover point position. This change Pulford has made from time to time in the different games of the present series, but Saturday night was the first occasion on which he has made the change permanent for the whole hour’s play. It was one more evidence of generalship which had done much to place the Ottawa seven at the head of the hockey world. The evident reasoning was that with Moore at cover point Vics would be able to work sufficiently far in to give Grier and Bowie the chances they had in the game at Ottawa. At cover point he formed a dividing line in the play and few Vic rushes culminated in a shot from close quarters”

"Pulford played cover point nearly all through the game, and it was plain that he had a good deal to do with the demoralizing of the Vics”

“Pulford, next to McGee, was the most conspicuous for effective work. He was at cover point again, and kept his eye on the puck”

“Pulford then made the most brilliant run of the evening, taking the puck from Smaill just in front of the goal, he came up the ice with it himself and circled round all opponents until he came to Horsfall when he passed to Smith on his right, who returned to him and the point player scored easily”

“Pulford was the hardest worker of the whole team. He threw all his energies into initiating attack, and repeatedly swung into the forward line, using his build in strength in many endeavors to break down the Wanderer line and force the play onto the local net. However, Harvey lost the puck quite frequently, and then had to hump back to defend his goal”

An Assistant Referee (Fred Brophy) reportedly was not a fan of Pulford, with a Montreal paper writing that he “did not think much of Pulford as a player. His game, though not exactly dirty, was to often effectually smother the attack of the opposing side”

“Harvey Pulford was the most brilliant player on the ice. Nobody did as much as he, if only for the reason that nobody had to do so much, but he did it, and one shivers to imagine what the score would have been had the great point man not been in the very finest fettle. Pulford himself was never beaten”

“Pulford’s play will long be remembered by those who saw it as one of the grandest expositions of point play ever seen in Canadian hockey”

“On the other hand Pulford, the Ottawa giant, played a great game for his team and rushed repeatedly down the ice in a vain attempt to score”

“Pulford and Moore performed many feats, and the work of Pulford in aiding his forwards had a great deal to do with the manner in which the Ottawa lot pulled up on Wanderer. As in the previous match, Pulford swung his weight and strength into the line and made many efforts to break through the Wanderer opposition, as if to crush it down”

" Pulford again shone as the best defence man in Canada, while Moore put up a splendid game at point"

“Pulford rushed the length of the ice whenever he wished”

1907-

“Pulford played his old reliable game on the defence and would repeatedly take the puck down into the enemy’s territory and come close to scoring on a number of occasions. The way he broke up the rushes of the Quebecers was good to see. Moore also put up a good defence game and assisted the forwards in many a rush down the ice"

“Pulford, playing his first game of the season, was quite as good as ever, getting in many an effective run down the ice in assistance of his lagging forward line"

“... only to collide and go down with Pulford, who at this time of the game was playing like a demon, saving scores when scores seemed certain”

“Spittal did not amount to much at point for Ottawa, and Pulford had to work overtime. The cover point was in a vicious humor, but the effectiveness of his play was not to be denied"

“Pulford seemed out of sort somehow or another, and stood listlessly moving his stick around in a semi-circle till he lost his temper again”

Harvey Pulford and the great Hod Stuart opposed each other at cover. Pulford hadn’t as much speed as Stuart, but he bored down on the Wanderer nets in great shape, aiding the forwards and checking with his usual skill”

"Pulford, however, was at his best. His work was not gentle- he is a big fellow and of a strenuous temperament- but it appeared to be fair. He was none the less effective for cutting out rough tactics, and combination dashes by the opposing quartette were met with all the resources and cunning that made him one of the great defence players in the game. Bowie drew his especial attention; he seemed to calculate that a rush would culminate in a pass to the great Vic scorer, and time and again he anticipated this pass with a poke or a jab at the puck that brought the Vic attack to a fruitless end. Pulford sallied out occasionally, but not often”

“None of the Ottawas showed up particularly well, except Pulford. The big cover-point played rag with the Montreal forwards, and took the puck down within shooting distance frequently"

"Harvey Pulford again proved that he is still a star cover-point, and his frequent rushes were always dangerous"

“Pulford at cover played his old reliable game and broke up all kinds of dangerous attacks. He also made several attempts to go down and score but got little support in these rushes"

"The slushy ice told against Harvey Pulford, and he fell frequently. Pulford did his share, nevertheless, and the rushes which he made as the game drew to a close brought back memories of the Kenora-Ottawa series two years ago"

“Pulford was outmatched in cleverness as a cover point by Hod Stuart, but he played his usual effective game. He gave no quarter to Wanderers, particularly to Stuart, but his tactics, while severe, were fair"

1908-

“Alf Smith’s work was the most effective of the Ottawa forwards, but to Pulford the greater portion of the defence work fell. He strove hard to turn the tide, and his rushes were a feature of the game"

“Pulford at point proved to be the old reliable and broke up rush after rush in pretty fashion. He also made some nice rushes down the ice and came close to scoring on several occasions"

“Harvey Pulford played a grand game at point, his rushing bringing the Ottawa crowd to its feet repeatedly. Harvey is speedier and more effective than ever"

“Pulford was steady and too hard a man for the Wanderer forwards to work around”

“Undoubtedly the individual star of the Ottawa team was Harvey Pulford. Pulford played a clean, steady article of hockey throughout, scoring the first goal himself and engineering the attack which resulted in the second"

"Pulford was as strong as ever. He played a good, steady, clean game, although the crowd on principle hooted him once or twice”

“Pulford seldom plays a dirty game but the crowd hoots him from force of habit. Hockey crowds have hooted Pulford for years and for some reason or other it seems to give them unlimited pleasure”

"Pulford put up a star game breaking up all kinds of dangerous rushes"

“Pulford, by carrying the campaign into the enemy’s country with a couple of brilliant rushes, was the man most instrumental in the turning of the tide of battle at that critical juncture”

"Pulford did some beautiful checking and carried the rubber down to the Vic flags on several occasions"

"Pulford did some nice checking, and took the rubber down quite often, but the speedy Wanderer forwards would repeatedly go around him"

Pulford was named to both 1908 all star teams mentioned up thread; in one he was listed at point, for the other he was on the second team as a cover.

Closing Thoughts
I think we (and hockey historians) have been unfairly making Pulford into a bit of a caricature. He had his limitations as a player, yes, especially early in his career. He took a couple years to get going (and I think was overshadowed by Weldy Young until Young went west), but he really hit his stride at the turn of the century and put up several years of play as the best (or at least one of the best) defensemen in hockey. He's going to be high on my ballot this time around.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,780
2,303
I've got some time, so I'll go ahead and do the same for Mike Grant right now. Right off the bat, I want to note that there are less quotes about him, as he peaked (and declined) before papers started to cover the game in detail with regularity. Furthermore, the Ottawa players are usually going to have more press than the Montreal players, as the Ottawa papers didn't really cover games between Montreal teams in the same manner that they covered Ottawa games, whereas the Montreal papers were more even in their coverage (in my opinion).

1894-

"but it seemed impossible to pass Lewis and Grant"

1895-

"Grant and Elliott were a very strong defence- the best seen in Montreal in years"

“Davidson, McDougall and Capt. Grant of the Vics were conspicuous for their good work"

“Another time near the last, big Captain Grant of the Vics hurled himself with all his strength against Smith, who was sweeping towards goal. They met with terrific force. Smith quivered for a moment then went on over the body of Grant, who went down”

“Grant did not appear to be in his usual form, but Henderson and Jones were bright, shining lights"

1896-

“Vics were short of the services of Bob MacDougall, and that may help to account for their defeat, it was the Vics defence that were weak, not the forwards. Grant was away off. He was slow and only occasionally did any effective work”

"Grant redeemed himself by his splendid work, and Jones seconded both of them”

“In fact, no one, outside of Capt. Mike Grant, could compare with little Westwick"

“The Victoria men whose play showed improvement on Saturday were McLea and Grant. The former put up the best game of all the Victoria forwards and the latter never played better”

“Mike Grant’s easy nonchalance surprised his friends. When the puck dropped in his vicinity he would take his time about sending it back, and often waited until Quebec forwards were on him before he cleared… on several occasions the Quebec men took the puck from him while he was waiting”

1897-

“Grant shone particularly in this line. In fact, several times his long lifts were most dangerous for Montreal, as they usually landed near Collins”

“Drinkwater was not up to his usual standard, and this weakened the Vics’ forward line somewhat; but McLea, Macdougall and Davidson played a rattling game. Grant was in splendid trim and worked like a Trojan. It was Grant’s good judgment that won the deciding game”

“MacDougall and Grant were seeming to do all the aggressive work for their side”

“Grant did some excellent defence work, and his lifting was very puzzling, while Lewis, who was arrayed in armor that much increased his bulk, made some phenomenal stops between the poles”

"Grant played a good game, but at times he was certainly “rattled” and tried to get the better of his opponents by methods not included in the laws of hockey"

“Lewis, their goaler, was padded to such an extent as to make him appear almost a monstrosity, and rendered scoring next to impossible. As for Grant and Henderson, both of them played grand games”

“For the visitors perhaps Davidson performed the hardest work on the forward line, but all were magnificent, and a run by Grant, the cover-point, from behind his own goals, clear through the Ottawa team to score a goal, was a wonderful achievement”

“Of the visitors, Drinkwater was a little off color, but nevertheless played well, while the others were well nigh perfect. ‘Mike’ Grant showed that he is almost the equal of ‘Weldy’ Young at cover-point”

"Grant’s lifting was not as effective as usual, and the forwards did not play the combination game that one expects from men like MacDougall, Davidson and McLea"

"Westwick was probably the star of the who fourteen, and he outplayed Mike Grant several times"

“Grant came up towards centre and time and time again tried to get in one of his famous rushes, but someone was always there to stop him”

"Lewis in goals is a wonder, and used great judgment. He was rarely from between the posts, not caring to take chances on a run out. He had excellent support in Henderson and Grant, the latter playing faultlessly. The way he would return with a lift was wonderful, one goal he scored being from cover point”

1898-

"Grant played a splendid game and was the cool and dashing ‘Mike’ of old"

"Grant was cool, and did his work thoroughly"

1899-

“Mike Grant did a great deal towards winning the match and his work at cover was as reliable as ever"

"Mike Grant played well down, and kept the other forwards at their work”

"Grant did not play like the Grant of old. He worked hard and tried all sorts of schemes to get the puck through the Shamrock goals, but without avail, and in the end he appeared to be out of the game."

“Mike Grant’s attempts to score on long lifts failed for once”

“Mike Grant was the whole defence for his side, the point man not being fit for senior honors"

“Mike Grant, for the visitors, excelled his former reputation as a model cover point"

“Mike Grant did what he has done on more than one occasion on Ottawa ice. He turned the tide in favour of the Victorias. From the face the puck was passed back to Grant, who made a lightning rush. He was forced into a corner, but Bowie was waiting for a pass and scored when the puck came out from Grant”

“For the visitors all played well. Grant never appeared to much better advantage and his lifting was a feature"

“The visitors played a brilliant game, but their style was more showy than effective. The men performed many fancy plays and handled their sticks as if they didn’t care whether they won or not. The defence seemed careless, and even big genial Mike Grant put up a listless game at times. The forwards skated well, and on several occasions performed pieces of combination play that were fairly dazzling. There is but one worker on the forward line, and that is Cam Davidson. The other three who formed the attacking portion of the Vics were content to hang back and wait for a chance to rush up the ice while Davidson followed up every lift made by Grant or Capt. Drinkwater. McLea did some bery effective work, and his shooting at long range was simply beautiful. Bowie and Ewing also did some nice work. Mike Grant’s rush when he tallied the goal that made the score five all was one of the features of the evening”

“Mike Grant is as reliable as ever. Mike has done the Anson act- shaved off his moustache to make himself look younger”

“The centers are good scorers, but Howard is liable to go down under heavy defence work, such as Mike Grant is able to dole out. Howard throws a wonderfully fast puck. Bain is a better man than ever this year”

“The Vics missed the reliability of MacDougall and the rushing power of McLea, but their back division was imperturbable and steadier than Montreal’s. The latter seemed to be able to get into the wrong place at the wrong time, and how the agility of the Vics forwards told against them, for a goalkeeper, be he ever so vigilant, cannot withstand a combined rush of forwards if the point and cover men have been left hopelessly in the rear. It was in a particular method of steady defence that the Victorias showed superior judgment. Grant, for instance, could afford to take a dashing chance because he knew Drinkwater was in his place behind him and that the latter would be able to attend to anything that came his way. In fact had it not been for the fine defence of the point and cover, Montreal would likely have won, for their forward line took every chance and went fast”

“But the Victoria defence played a grand game too. Mike Grant by all odds played his best game of the season"

1900-

“Grant was as serviceable as ever"

“The same crowd acted unfavorably to Grant. No matter what Grant did he was hooted and hissed, and yet in only one instance did Grant do anything that deserved condemnation”

"The fact that Grant was on seemed to brace the rest of the team, and they put forth their best energies to defeat their Montreal rivals”

“Grant played a nice easy defence, but his presence put a vim into the work of the other six players, and they hustled every time and all the time”

1901-

"Those who know Grant are certainly disposed to believe that he had sufficient provocation to justify his striking Duval in the face, for the Shamrock man’s record as a good sport and a gentleman, bears out the conviction that he did not act as he did without sufficient cause”

“McKenna was alright in goal, but Tansey seemed a bit clumsy at point, and Grant, the once-famous, almost proved a complete failure at cover point. There were dozens of times when Grant might have stopped the puck and sent it out of danger, but it rolled right past him unopposed”

"Tansey and Mike Grant, the other two defence men, though not brilliant were fairly effective and while Grant is not by a long shot the hockey player of the olden times, his bodying prevented the Ottawa line from getting far into Shamrock territory. He, however, handles his stick too much with the one hand to keep possession of the rubber”

“Had the Shamrocks had Wall on instead of Grant, the former’s ability to lift the puck back would certainly have made a hard proposition for the home team to buck up against”

1902-

“Grant had been doing fine work although he is apparently not the man he was, and he was particularly shy in the lifts he was distinguished for”

“For Quebec, Pacaud, Stanley and Stuart particularly distinguished themselves through brilliant play, while for the Victorias Grant, Russell, Bowie and Stewart were the stars”

“Victorias, though fortunate in this, that their last two opponents have not been in the best of form, were unfortunate in having to suffer for the absence of Bowie. The absence of a strong man always disturbs the equipoise of a team, and besides this particular weakness, Grant, though a grand hockey player in his time, and, no doubt, a source of confidence to the younger members of the team, is hardly a source of strength. The team cannot fail to appreciate his jumping into the breach to help them out, but they should not rely too much on the kindness of the veterans”

“Mike Grant, at cover point, put up as good a game as he ever did, and Lockerby stopped some hot shots from the Ottawa firing line”

"Strachan and Grant, on the defence, took advantage of the leniency of the referee, and devoted too much time to the body and too little to the puck to be thoroughly effective"

“Grant, but the way, played a great game, and the defence was a very hard one to beat”

“The Victoria defence played almost a perfect game. Grant, although he did not seem to be a favorite, covered his tracks in a way that put one in mind of the old times when the Vics were a considerable parcel in the make up of anything that went for hockey"

Closing Thoughts
I had Grant ahead of Pulford on both my preliminary list and last round's ballot, but that's certainly going to change moving forward. To be fair, I'd like to foot-stomp the note I made earlier about Ottawa players vs Montreal players in terms of coverage quantity, and I'd also note that the way I wrote down the seasons seems to have done Grant a disservice, as the game summaries have a lot of mentions of Grant's rushes and play that I didn't directly quote (so I didn't include them here). The primary sources do reference him more favorably than the direct citations I pulled did, and I think that reflects more in the season summaries than it does here in this post. So, if you have the time and inclination, I'd humbly encourage everyone to read (or re-read) those seasons and to put more stock in those than in this post.

But, man, there are some unflattering quotes about Grant here.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
3,561
Edmonton
My spreadsheets are doing some funky things, so any errors are unintentional but here are similar tables for all eligible forwards

OC% - Percent of the teams GF the player had a point on
Vs1 - Traditional percentage vs #1 league scorer
VsT - Percentage vs team scoring leager

Babe Dye

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1919-1920NHLBabe Dye
23​
11​
3​
14​
10​
8.28%​
28.57%​
38.89%​
1920-1921NHLBabe Dye
23​
33​
5​
38​
32​
25.33%​
88.37%​
100.00%​
1920-1921NHLBabe Dye
1​
2​
0​
2​
0​
1.47%​
4.65%​
5.41%​
1921-1922NHLBabe Dye
24​
31​
7​
38​
39​
24.52%​
82.61%​
100.00%​
1922-1923NHLBabe Dye
22​
26​
11​
37​
19​
27.82%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1923-1924NHLBabe Dye
19​
16​
3​
19​
23​
22.35%​
79.17%​
100.00%​
1924-1925NHLBabe Dye
29​
38​
8​
46​
41​
33.82%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1925-1926NHLBabe Dye
31​
18​
5​
23​
26​
18.85%​
54.76%​
88.46%​

Bernie Morris, probably in terms of outright consistency the second best PCHA scorer ever.

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1915-1916PCHABernie Morris
18​
23​
9​
32​
27​
31.68%​
91.43%​
100.00%​
1917-1918PCHABernie Morris
18​
20​
12​
32​
14​
28.32%​
74.42%​
100.00%​
1916-1917PCHABernie Morris
24​
37​
17​
54​
17​
27.14%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1921-1922PCHABernie Morris
24​
14​
10​
24​
9​
24.74%​
80.00%​
100.00%​
1918-1919PCHABernie Morris
20​
22​
8​
30​
15​
21.74%​
83.33%​
100.00%​
1920-1921PCHABernie Morris
22​
11​
12​
23​
3​
21.30%​
71.88%​
76.67%​
1922-1923PCHABernie Morris
29​
21​
5​
26​
30​
18.44%​
47.27%​
92.86%​
1923-1924WCHLBernie Morris
30​
16​
7​
23​
13​
17.42%​
57.50%​
67.65%​
1914-1915PCHABernie Morris
10​
7​
3​
10​
0​
10.75%​
22.22%​
37.04%​
1924-1925NHLBernie Morris
6​
2​
0​
2​
0​
2.86%​
4.35%​
8.33%​
1924-1925WCHLBernie Morris
7​
1​
2​
3​
2​
2.46%​
9.09%​
13.64%​
1924-1925WCHLBernie Morris
7​
2​
0​
2​
2​
1.36%​
6.06%​
6.06%​


No attempt was made to reconcile Pitre's position movements. I like him a lot by this type of analysis his scoring doesn't look nearly as bad as it does on the surface, his OC% in two seasons are at Bowie levels.

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1904-1905IHLDidier Pitre
13​
11​
0​
11​
6​
13.92%​
25.00%​
61.11%​
1904-1905CAHLDidier Pitre
2​
0​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1905-1906IHLDidier Pitre
22​
41​
0​
41​
29​
33.06%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1911-1912NHADidier Pitre
18​
27​
3​
30​
50​
42.25%​
75.00%​
100.00%​
1906-1907IHLDidier Pitre
23​
25​
11​
36​
28​
24.83%​
56.25%​
87.80%​
1909-1910NHADidier Pitre
12​
11​
0​
11​
5​
18.64%​
34.38%​
68.75%​
1910-1911NHADidier Pitre
16​
19​
5​
24​
22​
27.91%​
57.14%​
96.00%​
1912-1913NHADidier Pitre
17​
23​
3​
26​
80​
25.74%​
54.17%​
92.86%​
1913-1914PCHADidier Pitre
16​
14​
2​
16​
12​
12.12%​
41.03%​
41.03%​
1914-1915NHADidier Pitre
20​
30​
4​
34​
15​
39.53%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1915-1916NHADidier Pitre
24​
24​
15​
39​
42​
26.90%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1916-1917NHADidier Pitre
20​
22​
2​
24​
47​
21.24%​
50.00%​
75.00%​
1917-1918NHLDidier Pitre
20​
17​
6​
23​
29​
15.13%​
47.92%​
47.92%​
1918-1919NHLDidier Pitre
17​
14​
4​
18​
15​
14.40%​
54.55%​
54.55%​
1919-1920NHLDidier Pitre
23​
14​
12​
26​
6​
14.53%​
53.06%​
56.52%​
1907-1908ECAHADidier Pitre
10​
3​
1​
4​
15​
5.71%​
13.33%​
14.29%​
1903-1904FAHLDidier Pitre
2​
1​
0​
1​
3.70%​
#N/A​
11.11%​
1920-1921NHLDidier Pitre
23​
16​
5​
21​
25​
13.73%​
48.84%​
48.84%​
1921-1922NHLDidier Pitre
23​
2​
4​
6​
12​
4.48%​
13.04%​
23.08%​
1922-1923NHLDidier Pitre
22​
1​
2​
3​
0​
2.70%​
8.11%​
9.68%​

Frank Foyston, like I said kinda mediocre when you look pre WWI

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1912-1913NHAFrank Foyston
16​
8​
3​
11​
8​
11.00%​
22.92%​
44.00%​
1913-1914NHAFrank Foyston
19​
16​
2​
18​
8​
12.50%​
40.00%​
50.00%​
1914-1915NHAFrank Foyston
20​
13​
9​
22​
11​
22.45%​
64.71%​
81.48%​
1915-1916NHAFrank Foyston
1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1915-1916PCHAFrank Foyston
18​
9​
4​
13​
6​
12.87%​
37.14%​
40.63%​
1916-1917PCHAFrank Foyston
24​
36​
12​
48​
51​
24.12%​
88.89%​
88.89%​
1917-1918PCHAFrank Foyston
13​
9​
5​
14​
9​
12.39%​
32.56%​
43.75%​
1918-1919PCHAFrank Foyston
18​
15​
4​
19​
0​
13.77%​
52.78%​
63.33%​
1919-1920PCHAFrank Foyston
22​
26​
3​
29​
3​
34.52%​
87.88%​
100.00%​
1920-1921PCHAFrank Foyston
23​
26​
4​
30​
10​
27.78%​
93.75%​
100.00%​
1921-1922PCHAFrank Foyston
24​
16​
7​
23​
25​
23.71%​
76.67%​
95.83%​
1922-1923PCHAFrank Foyston
30​
20​
8​
28​
21​
19.86%​
50.91%​
100.00%​
1923-1924PCHAFrank Foyston
30​
17​
6​
23​
8​
19.83%​
74.19%​
100.00%​
1924-1925WCHLFrank Foyston
27​
6​
5​
11​
6​
8.73%​
33.33%​
36.67%​
1925-1926WHLFrank Foyston
12​
6​
3​
9​
8​
8.33%​
20.45%​
37.50%​

George Hay, consistently leading his own team in scoring but never really close to league leading numbers

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1921-1922WCHLGeorge Hay
25​
24​
10​
34​
9​
25.56%​
60.71%​
100.00%​
1922-1923WCHLGeorge Hay
30​
28​
8​
36​
12​
26.87%​
83.72%​
100.00%​
1923-1924WCHLGeorge Hay
25​
20​
11​
31​
8​
24.41%​
77.50%​
100.00%​
1924-1925WCHLGeorge Hay
20​
16​
6​
22​
6​
18.03%​
66.67%​
100.00%​
1925-1926WHLGeorge Hay
30​
19​
12​
31​
4​
23.66%​
70.45%​
86.11%​

Jack Walker, had some offensive pop but was a let down between 1914-1924 offensively

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1912-1913NHAJack Walker
1​
0​
0​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1913-1914NHAJack Walker
20​
20​
16​
36​
17​
25.00%​
80.00%​
100.00%​
1914-1915NHAJack Walker
19​
12​
7​
19​
11​
19.39%​
55.88%​
70.37%​
1915-1916PCHAJack Walker
18​
13​
6​
19​
6​
18.81%​
54.29%​
59.38%​
1916-1917PCHAJack Walker
24​
11​
15​
26​
3​
13.07%​
48.15%​
48.15%​
1918-1919PCHAJack Walker
20​
9​
6​
15​
9​
10.87%​
41.67%​
50.00%​
1919-1920PCHAJack Walker
22​
4​
7​
11​
3​
13.10%​
33.33%​
37.93%​
1920-1921PCHAJack Walker
22​
6​
4​
10​
6​
9.26%​
31.25%​
33.33%​
1921-1922PCHAJack Walker
20​
8​
4​
12​
0​
12.37%​
40.00%​
50.00%​
1922-1923PCHAJack Walker
29​
13​
10​
23​
4​
16.31%​
41.82%​
82.14%​
1923-1924PCHAJack Walker
29​
18​
5​
23​
0​
19.83%​
74.19%​
100.00%​
1924-1925WCHLJack Walker
28​
7​
7​
14​
6​
11.11%​
42.42%​
46.67%​
1925-1926WHLJack Walker
30​
9​
8​
17​
16​
15.74%​
38.64%​
70.83%​

Same caveat for Noble as for Pitre, I don't know exactly when he played where so the data is presented as is. Led or was pretty close to leading his team 3 seasons while consistent production. His OC% numbers are among the lowest for eligible, just barely ahead of Jack Walker

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1916-1917NHAReg Noble
14​
9​
3​
12​
51​
15.38%​
25.00%​
66.67%​
1916-1917NHAReg Noble
6​
4​
0​
4​
15​
3.54%​
8.33%​
12.50%​
1917-1918NHLReg Noble
20​
30​
10​
40​
35​
25.32%​
83.33%​
100.00%​
1918-1919NHLReg Noble
17​
10​
5​
15​
35​
15.63%​
45.45%​
88.24%​
1919-1920NHLReg Noble
24​
24​
9​
33​
52​
19.53%​
67.35%​
91.67%​
1920-1921NHLReg Noble
24​
19​
8​
27​
54​
18.00%​
62.79%​
71.05%​
1921-1922NHLReg Noble
24​
17​
11​
28​
19​
18.06%​
60.87%​
73.68%​
1922-1923NHLReg Noble
24​
12​
11​
23​
47​
17.29%​
62.16%​
62.16%​
1923-1924NHLReg Noble
24​
12​
5​
17​
79​
20.00%​
70.83%​
89.47%​
1924-1925NHLReg Noble
27​
8​
11​
19​
56​
26.03%​
41.30%​
95.00%​
1924-1925NHLReg Noble
3​
1​
0​
1​
8​
0.74%​
2.17%​
2.17%​
1925-1926NHLReg Noble
33​
9​
9​
18​
96​
13.53%​
42.86%​
42.86%​

Tommy Dunderdale has strong team based production (VsT) outside of a 3 year lull when the Victoria team folded.

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1909-1910NHATommy Dunderdale
12​
14​
0​
14​
19​
27.45%​
43.75%​
100.00%​
1910-1911NHATommy Dunderdale
9​
13​
2​
15​
25​
17.86%​
35.71%​
88.24%​
1911-1912PCHATommy Dunderdale
16​
24​
0​
24​
25​
29.63%​
88.89%​
100.00%​
1912-1913PCHATommy Dunderdale
15​
24​
5​
29​
36​
29.29%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1913-1914PCHATommy Dunderdale
16​
24​
4​
28​
34​
21.37%​
71.79%​
90.32%​
1914-1915PCHATommy Dunderdale
17​
17​
10​
27​
22​
29.03%​
60.00%​
100.00%​
1915-1916PCHATommy Dunderdale
18​
14​
3​
17​
45​
16.04%​
48.57%​
58.62%​
1916-1917PCHATommy Dunderdale
24​
22​
4​
26​
141​
15.76%​
48.15%​
57.78%​
1917-1918PCHATommy Dunderdale
18​
14​
6​
20​
57​
20.62%​
46.51%​
95.24%​
1918-1919PCHATommy Dunderdale
20​
5​
4​
9​
28​
26.47%​
25.00%​
100.00%​
1919-1920PCHATommy Dunderdale
22​
26​
7​
33​
35​
35.87%​
100.00%​
100.00%​
1920-1921PCHATommy Dunderdale
24​
9​
11​
20​
18​
16.53%​
62.50%​
62.50%​
1921-1922PCHATommy Dunderdale
24​
13​
6​
19​
37​
19.59%​
63.33%​
76.00%​
1922-1923PCHATommy Dunderdale
27​
2​
0​
2​
16​
1.35%​
3.64%​
3.64%​
1923-1924WCHLTommy Dunderdale
11​
1​
1​
2​
5​
1.83%​
5.00%​
6.45%​
1923-1924WCHLTommy Dunderdale
6​
1​
0​
1​
4​
0.70%​
2.50%​
2.50%​
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
3,561
Edmonton
Because why not, here is the same data for the defensemen (I know I'm missing seasons, I didn't get every league off SIHR before I let my membership lapse)

Art Ross, missing a couple of early years. His numbers still look pretty dang good for a point of the era.

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1904-1905CAHLArt Ross
8​
10​
0​
10​
18.52%​
37.04%​
76.92%​
1907-1908ECAHAArt Ross
10​
8​
2​
10​
27​
12.20%​
33.33%​
47.62%​
1909-1910NHAArt Ross
12​
6​
0​
6​
25​
7.79%​
18.75%​
30.00%​
1910-1911NHAArt Ross
11​
4​
2​
6​
31​
6.00%​
14.29%​
28.57%​
1911-1912NHAArt Ross
19​
16​
5​
21​
60​
19.27%​
52.50%​
67.74%​
1912-1913NHAArt Ross
18​
11​
2​
13​
58​
11.61%​
27.08%​
43.33%​
1913-1914NHAArt Ross
18​
4​
5​
9​
74​
5.52%​
20.00%​
20.45%​
1914-1915NHAArt Ross
16​
3​
1​
4​
55​
4.17%​
11.76%​
14.81%​
1915-1916NHAArt Ross
21​
8​
8​
16​
69​
14.95%​
41.03%​
66.67%​
1916-1917NHAArt Ross
16​
6​
3​
9​
66​
7.56%​
18.75%​
28.13%​
1917-1918NHLArt Ross
3​
1​
0​
1​
12​
4.76%​
2.08%​
14.29%​

Harry Cameron, the best offensive guy of the bunch. Peak as high as any of them but can back it up with longevity.

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1912-1913NHAHarry Cameron
20​
10​
2​
12​
20​
12.00%​
25.00%​
48.00%​
1913-1914NHAHarry Cameron
19​
14​
5​
19​
22​
13.19%​
42.22%​
52.78%​
1914-1915NHAHarry Cameron
17​
12​
8​
20​
43​
20.41%​
58.82%​
74.07%​
1915-1916NHAHarry Cameron
24​
8​
3​
11​
70​
8.40%​
28.21%​
37.93%​
1916-1917NHAHarry Cameron
14​
8​
4​
12​
32​
15.38%​
25.00%​
66.67%​
1916-1917NHAHarry Cameron
6​
1​
1​
2​
9​
1.68%​
4.17%​
6.25%​
1917-1918NHLHarry Cameron
21​
17​
10​
27​
28​
17.09%​
56.25%​
67.50%​
1918-1919NHLHarry Cameron
7​
6​
2​
8​
9​
8.33%​
24.24%​
47.06%​
1918-1919NHLHarry Cameron
7​
5​
1​
6​
26​
5.31%​
18.18%​
21.43%​
1919-1920NHLHarry Cameron
16​
12​
5​
17​
36​
9.50%​
34.69%​
36.96%​
1919-1920NHLHarry Cameron
7​
3​
0​
3​
6​
1.78%​
6.12%​
8.33%​
1920-1921NHLHarry Cameron
24​
18​
9​
27​
35​
18.00%​
62.79%​
71.05%​
1921-1922NHLHarry Cameron
24​
18​
17​
35​
22​
22.58%​
76.09%​
92.11%​
1922-1923NHLHarry Cameron
22​
9​
7​
16​
27​
12.03%​
43.24%​
43.24%​
1923-1924WCHLHarry Cameron
29​
10​
10​
20​
16​
14.08%​
50.00%​
50.00%​
1924-1925WCHLHarry Cameron
28​
13​
7​
20​
21​
13.99%​
60.61%​
62.50%​
1925-1926WHLHarry Cameron
30​
9​
3​
12​
12​
8.11%​
27.27%​
27.27%​

Harvey Pulford, offensively nothing to really talk about

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1899-1900CAHLHarvey Pulford
6​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1900-1901CAHLHarvey Pulford
5​
1​
1​
3.03%​
4.17%​
12.50%​
1901-1902CAHLHarvey Pulford
5​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1902-1903CAHLHarvey Pulford
7​
0​
0​
0​
15​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1903-1904CAHLHarvey Pulford
2​
0​
0​
0​
3​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1905-1906ECAHAHarvey Pulford
10​
4​
3​
7​
27​
6.31%​
21.21%​
21.88%​
1906-1907ECAHAHarvey Pulford
10​
0​
1​
1​
31​
1.03%​
2.13%​
3.85%​
1907-1908ECAHAHarvey Pulford
9​
1​
2​
3​
32​
2.91%​
10.00%​
10.00%​

Herb Gardiner, looks pretty good in this stretch but doesn't really stand out when compared to Joe Simpson IMO.

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1920-1921Big 4AbHerb Gardiner
13​
3​
7​
10​
6​
10.20%​
35.71%​
47.62%​
1921-1922WCHLHerb Gardiner
24​
5​
2​
7​
6​
6.54%​
12.50%​
22.58%​
1922-1923WCHLHerb Gardiner
29​
9​
3​
12​
9​
9.02%​
27.91%​
37.50%​
1923-1924WCHLHerb Gardiner
22​
5​
5​
10​
4​
7.58%​
25.00%​
29.41%​
1924-1925WCHLHerb Gardiner
28​
12​
8​
20​
18​
13.61%​
60.61%​
60.61%​
1925-1926WHLHerb Gardiner
27​
3​
1​
4​
10​
3.88%​
9.09%​
16.00%​

Joe Simpson probably has the best stretch of 4 seasons on this list.

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1920-1921Big 4AbJoe Simpson
15​
2​
6​
8​
21​
9.20%​
28.57%​
28.57%​
1921-1922WCHLJoe Simpson
25​
20​
14​
34​
15​
18.48%​
60.71%​
60.71%​
1922-1923WCHLJoe Simpson
30​
15​
14​
29​
6​
15.85%​
67.44%​
67.44%​
1923-1924WCHLJoe Simpson
30​
10​
4​
14​
6​
12.84%​
35.00%​
45.16%​
1924-1925WCHLJoe Simpson
28​
11​
12​
23​
16​
15.44%​
69.70%​
71.88%​
1925-1926NHLJoe Simpson
32​
2​
2​
4​
2​
4.55%​
9.52%​
16.00%​

Mike Grant, data might be incomplete, haven't reconciled with rmartin's counting

NameGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
1898-1899CAHLMike Grant
7​
2​
2​
4.55%​
10.53%​
18.18%​
1899-1900CAHLMike Grant
2​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1900-1901CAHLMike Grant
2​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
1901-1902CAHLMike Grant
7​
0​
0​
0.00%​
0.00%​
0.00%​
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,780
2,303
@rmartin65 do you remember off hand how much rover Ross ended up playing? Was it significant?

I can’t speak for his time in Brandon and Kenora, but I believe he was mostly a rover with Montreal Westmount in 1905, then returned to the East as a point with the Montreal Wanderers in 1908.

I’m curious what happened from 1911-13, as that’s quite a spike in goal totals for Ross.
Since I have all my scans and quotes in front of me today-

1905-

Ross played cover on 7 January

Ross was listed at forward (probably rover, but unspecified) on 14 January

Ross was listed at rover on 23 January

Ross was listed at rover on 26 January

Ross played cover on 1 February- he apparently had an injury which caused the change, and Westmount played a double-cover system (Patrick and Ross)

Ross was listed at forward (probably rover, but unspecified) on 4 February

Ross was listed at rover on 18 February

Ross was listed at point on 8 March

In sum- 2 games at defense positions, 6 at forward. I think it is most accurate to call him a forward for this season.

Now, in 1908, Ross returns to the East as a point for all ten games with the Wanderers. As noted up-thread, he's named to an all-star team at the position.

I don't have any visibility into what position he played with Brandon, but for the Cup challenges with Kenora in 1907 Ross was listed at point for both games. He also received some really nice praise in the first game-

"Ross is some miles above the Ross that played for Westmount in the gone days, and his work at point last night was something to be remembered. He showed rare form in breaking clear and his rushes usually counted in getting the puck close to the goal. Griffis and Ross made a splended combination. Each check closely, and always for the puck, and each has such ability to get into speed at short range"
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
3,561
Edmonton
For those of you who are more visually inclined here are some graphs showing Walker, Foyston and Morris when they were together in Seattle. Morris beat Foyston head to head 5 times out 7 seasons spent together at their peak/primes

1678285661310.png


Here is Vs1 over the same stretch together.

1678285180144.png


Edit: Oops forgot Walker missed a year.
 
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rmartin65

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Cameron looks really good by those numbers, @ResilientBeast . Both in terms of peak and longevity.

I guess I’m pretty high on most of the defenders this round. Gardiner is really the only one I dont really see a case for.
 
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ResilientBeast

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Cameron looks really good by those numbers, @ResilientBeast . Both in terms of peak and longevity.

I guess I’m pretty high on most of the defenders this round. Gardiner is really the only one I dont really see a case for.

I think it's also too early for Joe Simpson as well. But he has a pretty great peak and he has the contemporary opinions to back him up as a superstar during the era. As I recall Simpson is the one who most impressed observers during the 1923 cup final against Ottawa and not Keats.

My 2018 bio has tons of game descriptions and various bits of praise for him, including @overpass finding he was almost traded for Nighbor.

Simpson's performance in the Stanley Cup Final of 1923 against Ottawa (held in Vancouver, a neutral site). Courtesy of Overpass

Game 1
Edmonton started red hot favorites with the crowd. Every time little Joe Simpson came down the ice with his sensational bursts, the six thousand fans cheered him to the echo
A corkscrew rush down the right wing by Simpson resulted in a snappy shot on Benedict.
Simpson went down the right wing and held the puck until he was within a few feet of Benedict. His shot was saved by pretty work.
Edmonton went into the lead when Morrison scored, subbing in for Keats, went in with Simpson and took a pass close in from Joe, which he shot past Benedict like lightning.
Simpson made a rush which carried him in for a shot. The Ottawa defense picked up the puck but Simpson had caught them before they had crossed the blue line and returned for another shot.

Game 2

"Little Joe" Simpson was the star of the Esks. He made thousands of friends by his brilliant dashes and his undeniably sporting spirit. He played the man and the puck in equal proportions but he played with conspicuous regard to the rules. Newsy Lalonde's expressed opinion that Joe Simpson is the greatest hockey player in the world will find general support in the coast country. He is a wonderful athlete and a gentleman on and off the ice.

Every time he rushed in Saturday's game he was given an ovation. His work was the outstanding incident. He was half the Edmonton attack, and his uncanny faculty for keeping his feet and his legs under difficulties is amazing. He was given a rough ride all evening by the Senators. All the penalties incurred, including Benedict's, were caused by attacks on "Little Joe." The first period alone, Clancy, Benedict, Nighbor, and Broadbent brought him down with trips or slashed wickedly at his form as it gyrated around them or flashed past. Benedict tried to separate him from his legs behind the goal and the fans razzed the tall iceberg as Ion banished him for two minutes. Judging by the support accorded him Simpson could displace Mayor Tisdall if he sought the job of bossing Vancouver.
Click to expand...
A moment later Simpson passed to Keats in front of Benedict. The Edmonton centre missed the pass.
Simpson carried the puck the length of the ice and passed to Gagne, Gagne missing.
Joe Simpson stickhandled his way all through the Ottawa defense for what seemed to be a certain goal but lost out by Benedict making a sensational save.

1923 - 03 - 17 - Edmonton Bulletin
Deacon White Makes Selection of Hockey Players From Coast and Prairies Leagues That Will Startle Many Fans - Reviews Work of Players in Both Loops Throughout Present Season

Lehman - Goalie
Simpson - Right Defence
Clem Loughlin - Left Defence
Frederickson - Center
Gagne - Right Wing
Hay - Left Wing
Keats - Sub Center
Mackay - Sub Right Wing
Riley - Sub Left Wing
Cook - Sub Defence

Simpson the King of All Defence Players Anywhere

Joe Simpson is the king of all defence players that we have see in these two leagues and we jump to the conclusion - of any league. And that too when he does not posses the avoirdupois that naturally belongs to the position of a defence player. But he more than makes up for the lack of weight in quickness on his skates and uncanny skill in using his stick. On the defence end alone of his position he ranks above them all. His tactics are remarkable. If he fails to hook the puck away from an opposition plaguing with his stick, at which he is an adept he plunges low into the legs of his opponent like a rugby player making a tackle and invariably stops the man. he is such a quick starter that opponents can not stick handle around him. Joe is able to stay right with them until he brings them down or steals the puck away from them. But it is on the attack that Simpson shines the brightest. His rushes down the ice with the puck are the most spectacular and most effective in the business...

His stick-handling ability is unexcelled his speed is blinding and he packs a powerful and accurate shot. It looks as though he would have made the greatest forward in the business, not excepting Frederickson

His longevity is really poor, he was what 5 seasons of note?
 

ResilientBeast

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I wonder how much Dunderdale's reputation might be suppressed from playing in Portland and Victoria, by far the weak sisters of the PCHA, as well as other "small market" organizations.

In his career, Dunderdale got the following team results:

Manitoba Hockey League
1907 (Winnipeg Strathconas) - 5th place out of 5, no playoffs
1908 (Winnipeg Strathconas) - 3rd place out of 3 that finished the season, no playoffs
1909 (Winnipeg Shamrocks) - Weird season... Shamrocks merged with another team and then won a 2-team league with an identical record and 1 better goal differential than the other team.

Canadian Hockey Association
1910 (Montreal Shamrocks) - 4th place out of 5

National Hockey Association
1910 (Montreal Shamrocks) - 6th place out of 7, no playoffs
1911 (Quebec Bulldogs) - 5th place out of 5, no playoffs

Pacific Coast Hockey Association
1912 (Victoria Senators) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1913 (Victoria Senators) - 1st place out of 3, no playoffs
1914 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 1st place out of 3, lost Stanley Cup challenge to Toronto
1915 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1916 (Portland Rosebuds) - 1st place out of 3, lost Stanley Cup challenge to Canadiens
1917 (Portland Rosebuds) - 3rd place out of 4, no playoffs
1918 (Portland Rosebuds) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1919 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1920 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1921 (Victoria Aristocrats) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1922 (Victoria Cougars) - 3rd place out of 3, no playoffs
1923 (Victoria Cougars) - 2nd place out of 3, lost 2-game playoff to Vancouver

Western Canada Hockey League
1924 (Saskatoon Crescents/Edmonton Eskimos) - 3rd place and 4th place out of 4, respectively

Outside of 1913-1916, that's just a very grim career as far as team situation is concerned. While the Taylors and MacKays were playing legendary Stanley Cup series against the best of the East, Dunderdale was only rarely on a .500 team in an era when only one or two teams per league would experience a postseason.

Of course the other side of the coin is, maybe Dunderdale's teams would have won more if he were a better player. It does seem that he had a decent peak circa 1913/1914, but outside of those years he was not quite in the top tier of PCHA scoring. In the back nine of his career, he didn't really distinguish himself as a scorer from his teammate Eddie Oatman (perhaps an underrated player in his own right, but still), except for that massive 1920 season where he and Foyston were miles ahead of everyone.

Difficult player to pin down.

So looking at his teammates of note (will come up in this project or at least I know who they are) during these stretches

1910 - Shamrocks (terrible looking team) - Don Smith, Joe Hall
1911 - Quebec (Honestly look kind of good with hindsight) - Jack Mcdonald, Mallen, Dunderdale, Oatman, Hall, Malone
1912-1915 (How the f*** did they win a league title, wait Bert Lindsay that's why) Victoria Pt1 - Lester, Kerr, Rowe, Genge
1916-1918 - Portland (he gets some help but his scoring sucks) - Irvin, Harris, Oatman, Moose Johnson
1919-1921 - Victoria PT2 - Oatman, Frederickson, Patrick, Moose Johnson

Relative to other PCHA teams and players we've inducted already he definitely had some of the worst support but it wasn't that horrible.

I think Dunderdale functioned best a primary scoring option and wasn't a good enough playmaker to really elevate his teammates. His goal scoring rates remain relatively flat, but he only hits double digit assists twice in 1915 & 1921.

That first stint in Victoria he was bumping up near points on 30% of the teams GF with 89 goals in 64 games. He moved to Portland and his scoring involvement drops down into the mid teens before rebounding for some strong final years back in Victoria. While a star in the era, he really strikes me as a good stats bad teams kind of guy.
 

jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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This is all just reinforcing that Grant/Pulford/Cameron are going to be my top 3.

If we also induct Ross, we will have arguably inducted every best defenseman between 1895-1925 (or whenever we say Clancy took the crown), which is pretty nice.
 
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ResilientBeast

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Much like Dye are we underrating Pitre overall?

He had a very long career and his numbers that I posted earlier are pretty decent

Even if we ignore anything he played besides the ECAHA

He has 5 awesome looking seasons relatively speaking.

1911 - He's one assist behind Newsy Lalonde, combined they account for about ~55% of the Habs goals this season, the next highest is Eugene Payan who produces 64% the points of Lalonde.
1912 - He's involved in 42% of the Canadiens goals and leads them in scoring despite only have 75% Skene Ronan's points. the next highest scoring Hab is Eugene Payan who had 36% of Pitre's points
1913 - He's just behind Lalonde is scoring once again, both get blown out by the duo from Quebec
1915 - Tommy Smith dominates scoring, Pitre ties Roberts for second, Pitre once again manages to have points on almost 40% of the Habs goals and blows out Laviolette who finishes second in scoring out of the water.
1916 - Pitre outscores everyone in a pretty deep year for the NHA, including a healthy Lalonde

After 1916 he slowly trails off and then Malone joins the team and he maintains that low level of offensive output. In 1917 he manages 75% of Lalonde before Malone joins, and then in 1918 he loses another 25% to Lalonde/Malone

SeasonTeamTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1VsT
FAHL1903-1904Montreal Nationals6Didier PitreD21013.70%?11.11%
IHL1904-1905Michigan Soo Indians24Didier Pitre?1311011613.92%25.00%61.11%
CAHL1904-1905Montreal Nationals10Didier PitreRW20000.00%0.00%0.00%
IHL1905-1906Michigan Soo Indians24Didier PitreRW22410412933.06%100.00%100.00%
IHL1906-1907Michigan Soo Indians24Didier PitreRW232511362824.83%56.25%87.80%
ECAHA1907-1908Montreal Shamrocks10Didier PitreCP10314155.71%13.33%14.29%
NHA1909-1910Montreal Canadiens12Didier PitreCP1211011518.64%34.38%68.75%
NHA1910-1911Montreal Canadiens16Didier PitreCP/R16195242227.91%57.14%96.00%
NHA1911-1912Montreal Canadiens18Didier PitreRight Wing18273305042.25%75.00%100.00%
NHA1912-1913Montreal Canadiens20Didier PitreRight Wing17233268025.74%54.17%92.86%
PCHA1913-1914Vancouver Millionaires16Didier PitreR16142161212.12%41.03%41.03%
NHA1914-1915Montreal Canadiens20Didier PitreRW20304341539.53%77.00%100.00%
NHA1915-1916Montreal Canadiens24Didier PitreRW242415394226.90%100.00%100.00%
NHA1916-1917Montreal Canadiens20Didier PitreRW20222244721.24%50.00%75.00%
NHL1917-1918Montreal Canadiens22Didier PitreRW20176232915.13%47.92%47.92%
NHL1918-1919Montreal Canadiens18Didier PitreRW/D17144181514.40%54.55%54.55%
NHL1919-1920Montreal Canadiens24Didier PitreRW23141226614.53%53.06%56.52%
NHL1920-1921Montreal Canadiens24Didier PitreRW23165212513.73%48.84%48.84%
NHL1921-1922Montreal Canadiens24Didier PitreD23246124.48%13.04%23.08%
NHL1922-1923Montreal Canadiens24Didier PitreD2212302.70%8.11%9.68%
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Brooklyn
can someone give a bullet point list as to why we should vote in Pulford at this time that doesn't mainly just come down to "he played at the top level for a long time?"

Playing at the top level for a long time is certainly a plus of course; it's going to get Patrick Marleau into the HHOF in all likelihood

I think it's also too early for Joe Simpson as well. But he has a pretty great peak and he has the contemporary opinions to back him up as a superstar during the era. As I recall Simpson is the one who most impressed observers during the 1923 cup final against Ottawa and not Keats.

My 2018 bio has tons of game descriptions and various bits of praise for him, including @overpass finding he was almost traded for Nighbor.

Simpson's performance in the Stanley Cup Final of 1923 against Ottawa (held in Vancouver, a neutral site). Courtesy of Overpass

Game 1






Game 2






1923 - 03 - 17 - Edmonton Bulletin


His longevity is really poor, he was what 5 seasons of note?

Bullet Joe having a ridiculously good run in 1923 could help explain why he got so much support on the 1925 MacLean's list. When exactly was voting for that list conducted again?
 
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rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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can someone give a bullet point list as to why we should vote in Pulford at this time that doesn't mainly just come down to "he played at the top level for a long time?"

Playing at the top level for a long time is certainly a plus of course; it's going to get Patrick Marleau into the HHOF in all likelihood
Besides an extended prime, I think the arguments for Pulford are-

- his effective use of physicality. The game was always a physical one, but Pulford seems to have been able to use that physicality to influence the game like no other player of his time. There are multiple references to players/teams avoiding Pulford because of his physicality. He was even called 'the Butcher' at one point

- he was named to the all-star team at point in the 1905 newspaper/fan voting

- he was second team all-star in one of the 1908 lists (at the end of his career)

- he was not the uni-dimensional player he is remembered as. As the quotes I posted this morning showed, he received a lot of positive press for his rushes and offensive contributions

- he was a key piece on a dynasty. Definitely after McGee, but prime Pulford was arguably the next most important guy on those Silver Seven teams (I think it is between him and Smith, with LeSueur fourth and Westwick fifth, but that's just my opinion). I know I am personally not particularly fond of ranking players by team success metrics, but it seems like I am in the minority there. This project has already voted in over half of those later Senators teams (Nighbor, Cleghorn, Gerard, Denneny, Boucher), so clearly voters like players on winning teams. I fail to see why this shouldn't apply to earlier dynasties as well (not just the Silver Seven, but the 1900s Wanderers, the late 1890s Victorias, and the late-1880s/early-1890s MAAA teams too).
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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- he was a key piece on a dynasty. Definitely after McGee, but prime Pulford was arguably the next most important guy on those Silver Seven teams (I think it is between him and Smith, with LeSueur fourth and Westwick fifth, but that's just my opinion). I know I am personally not particularly fond of ranking players by team success metrics, but it seems like I am in the minority there. This project has already voted in over half of those later Senators teams (Nighbor, Cleghorn, Gerard, Denneny, Boucher), so clearly voters like players on winning teams. I fail to see why this shouldn't apply to earlier dynasties as well (not just the Silver Seven, but the 1900s Wanderers, the late 1890s Victorias, and the late-1880s/early-1890s MAAA teams too).

Thanks. Regarding the quoted part, wasn't Pulford clearly below Marty Walsh after Walsh replaced McGee? Of course the lack of Walsh as a candidate shouldn't negate Pulford if he's truly deserving.

Regarding Pulford vs LeSueur, I can't help but think how much more support LeSueur got on the MacLean's 1925 list.
 
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ResilientBeast

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I should also post on Dye since I refer to him when talking about Pitre.

Between 1920-1926 Dye led the St. Pats in scoring 5 of the 7 seasons and probably could've done it in 1926 as well without injuries. And the advantage Dye has by this analysis is that he dominated team scoring and was relevant in the Art Ross conversation during this stretch at his peak.

1919-20 (Vs1 28.57%) - Dye's first season he's outscored by Corb, Noble, Wilson, Randall
1920-21 (Vs1 92%) - Dye leads the team in scoring, second place (Noble/Cameron) have 70% of his points
1921-22 (Vs1 - 82.61%) - Dye ekes out a small lead over Cameron. Both are 7+ points ahead of Corb and Noble
1922-23 (Vs1 - 100%) - Dye leads the team again, Adams has 75% of his point total
1923-24 (Vs1 - 79.1%)- Dye misses 5 games, still leads the team by a single point
1924-25 (Vs1 - 100%)- Dye has a huge lead over Adams (67% of Dye)
1925-26 (Vs1 - 54.76%) - Dye misses 5 games, behind Adams by 3 points

I realize Dye is effectively known for his one skill, but he was excellent at it. The "Art Ross" winners of the NHL during this stretch

Joe Malone, Newsy Lalonde, Harry Broadbent, Babe Dye, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye, Nels Stewart

2 transcendental talents, 2 members of the best team of the era, an ineligible youngster and then Babe Dye.

Then when the western leagues fold he finishes 5th behind Cook, Irvin, Morenz and Fredrickson

One inducted forward, 2 players who we can definitively say were better than him and Irvin.
 
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rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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Thanks. Regarding the quoted part, wasn't Pulford clearly below Marty Walsh after Walsh replaced McGee? Of course the lack of Walsh as a candidate shouldn't negate Pulford if he's truly deserving.
Maybe. Probably? It's hard to tell, as they only overlapped in Ottawa in 1908. I'd argue that Tommy Phillips was the star of the Ottawa team that season, definitely above Pulford). In any case, neither player affects Pulford's standing on the Silver Seven Championship teams.

Walsh is a fun comparison with Pulford in that they almost have opposite strengths and weaknesses for this list- Walsh's longevity isn't great, but there is a lot to like about his peak. Pulford's peak is in question, but his longevity is beyond reproach.

Regarding Pulford vs LeSueur, I can't help but think how much more support LeSueur got on the MacLean's 1925 list.
LeSueur also had less competition though, right? Lots of great defenders by 1925 (or whenever the list was actually compiled), but the goalkeepers list looks fairly weak in comparison.
 
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