Sturminator
Love is a duel
And he probably was until Andy Bathgate came along.
Quite a few years later, and in a very different league.
Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 2
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And he probably was until Andy Bathgate came along.
Quite a few years later, and in a very different league.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Sturminator
Love is a duel
Yes, they do.
BB has forgotten more about those Sens teams than he can probably remember, but I can't think of anyone who has spent more time with those documents than he has.
Yes...you can go through the Cup Finals descriptions and find starring roles for literally every one of the Hall of Fame Sens players at various times, and even lesser lights like Jack Darragh.
Almost everyone at any given time on the ice for that team was a proven star. It's a bit like evaluating the peak-dynasty Habs teams (pick one). It's impossible to know how much Bernie Geoffrion would have scored on the Rangers, but it also doesn't matter, ya know?
To the bold- that is kind of my point-; the Silver Seven won Cups in just as many years as those Senator teams, yet they (probably) are not going to have anyone in the top 10. If we are valuing winning for one team, why not for the other? Is era really going to be the difference between 4-5 players from one team in the top 15 on this list and none for the other? We are comfortable with saying the fourth best player from a team (who was on a team with the best player of all time up to that point) is better than a player that some sources were calling the best in the world?
I'm not trying to make this about players not up for voting, but I'm struggling with how the players from one dynasty can be held in such high esteem while the players from another are not.
With respect, I'm not wild about appeals to authority. I know @BenchBrawl has done a lot of research on those Sens teams- I have acknowledged that already, and have asked for more insights.
This is all about knowledge, right? Why are you seemingly so willing to just rubber stamp these guys through?
You can find a lot in newspapers- like Hod Stuart and Tommy Phillips (just to keep it to players from this round of discussion) being mentioned as the best players of all time.
Teams who won got a lot of press, because they played a lot of important games, but I don't think that automatically makes them superior players. It just means we have more information on them.
Then why didn't they win more Cups? And why were they not more dominant in two of them (3-2 series victories, if I remember correctly)? If everyone on the ice was a proven star, including having the tent-pole player of the era, the best player of all time up to that point, why didn't they win more, and by larger margins? Even the series they won 2-0, each game was a one goal game. That's right, a team with 8 HoFs and what looks like half the top 10 off all time for that era won 2-1 and 1-0 against the Edmonton Eskimos led by Duke Keats and Bullet Joe Simpson. When do those guys become eligible?
I think this community overrates some of those guys, too, so at least I'm consistent.
It kind of does matter, though, because this community does take things like linemates and era into account. Otherwise we may as well just count Cup rings and scoring titles and call it a day.
I came across this one this morning while looking for more on Tommy Phillips- lots of names mentioned (Phillips, Stuart, Johnson, McGee, Taylor, Bowie, Patrick)
The Victoria Daily Times, 30 January 1912 page 6
An article about a “fanning bee” that was held at the Vancouver Arena.
A man from Calgary was quoted as saying:
“Guess you fellows know Tommy Phillips pretty well here. We called him Nibs down in Winnipeg. He was the guy who went east with Kenora in 1906 and played the whole Ottawa team in the greatest cup series ever pulled off. I say without hesitation that Tommy was 60 per cent of the total strength of the Kenora team on that occasion and it took the whole Ottawa line-up to hold him. And Ottawa had some great players in line, believe me. I’m bold enough to say that Tommy Phillips was 33 per cent better than the best man you can name. First off all, he had everything- speed, stickhandling, head and the shot. And secondly he was the cleanest man that ever played. He never deliberately scratched an opponent in his life. He took the gaff but never gave it. You have to take off your hats to that man Nibs Phillips and I be he makes good this season”
A man from Montreal was quoted as saying:
“The greatest hockey player of them all was born in Ottawa. His career was snuffed out when he was at the top of his form. The late Hod Stuart had it on them all. We have had many fine players in Ottawa, but there is not a fan who won’t say without hesitation that Hod Stuart was the greatest. Hod was a big fellow, fast and a skater. Guess you remember the game he played against Ottawa the season of 1907 in the Montreal Arena. And at the Gladstone rink Ottawa people didn’t applaud because he was an Ottawa boy, but because he showed himself to be a hockey player of unrivalled ability”
Another fan said:
“This player Ernie Johnson is a great player, but he lacks something to make him the greatest” and “Fred Taylor is also a wonderful player, and his physical stunts on the ice are marvelous. But I always believed that the real downright useful and effective playing Alf Smith and ‘Rat’ Westwick had something on any of them. Smith could play the wing better than any one I ever saw and I once saw him lay it over Tommy Phillips. Westwick lacked the shot only to make him just about the greatest ever”
A so-called “prominent sporting man” reportedly said:
“I see Russell Bowie is up to his old tricks of making the goalkeeper look like a wooden Indian in front of a cigar store. There is one player who could have filled in his own figures in an N.H.A. contract if he wanted to participate in the ‘pro’ league. To my mind he was the greatest player that ever lived. What he hadn’t no one ever had. We was fast and tricky and walked right in on the defence before he ever thought of shooting. He had a great trick of playing the rubber to the boards and if his check blocked the puck he would clap his hand to the side of his head and drop to one knee, giving the impression that he was injured. The referee would instantly stop the game and chase the other man to the fence. That was Bowie’s only fault- his propensity for faking”
An old member of the Ottawa club said:
“There was no doubt Bowie was a great player, but there is a little fair haired fellow in Ottawa who was them all stopped”
“His name is Frank McGee. He could carry the puck on a straight line to the goal like a quarter-back bucks the line. And game! Say, that fellow had lions and bulldogs looking like yellow pups. He played hockey when a crack over the head was about as serious as a minor warning in the present rules of the N.H.A. and when a player with ability was a marked man. And don’t think he never got any bumps. Why, he wore more pads than any man on the Ottawa team and after a bruising game would strip black and blue in front, behind, top and bottom. Incidentally he gave about as much punishment as he received”
The article also wrote that “Lester Patrick, of the local team, was among those mentioned as deserving of a place in the hockey hall of fame”
The Victoria Daily Times, 30 January 1912 page 6
An article about a “fanning bee” that was held at the Vancouver Arena.
A man from Calgary was quoted as saying:
“Guess you fellows know Tommy Phillips pretty well here. We called him Nibs down in Winnipeg. He was the guy who went east with Kenora in 1906 and played the whole Ottawa team in the greatest cup series ever pulled off. I say without hesitation that Tommy was 60 per cent of the total strength of the Kenora team on that occasion and it took the whole Ottawa line-up to hold him. And Ottawa had some great players in line, believe me. I’m bold enough to say that Tommy Phillips was 33 per cent better than the best man you can name. First off all, he had everything- speed, stickhandling, head and the shot. And secondly he was the cleanest man that ever played. He never deliberately scratched an opponent in his life. He took the gaff but never gave it. You have to take off your hats to that man Nibs Phillips and I be he makes good this season”
A man from Montreal was quoted as saying:
“The greatest hockey player of them all was born in Ottawa. His career was snuffed out when he was at the top of his form. The late Hod Stuart had it on them all. We have had many fine players in Ottawa, but there is not a fan who won’t say without hesitation that Hod Stuart was the greatest. Hod was a big fellow, fast and a skater. Guess you remember the game he played against Ottawa the season of 1907 in the Montreal Arena. And at the Gladstone rink Ottawa people didn’t applaud because he was an Ottawa boy, but because he showed himself to be a hockey player of unrivalled ability”
Another fan said:
“This player Ernie Johnson is a great player, but he lacks something to make him the greatest” and “Fred Taylor is also a wonderful player, and his physical stunts on the ice are marvelous. But I always believed that the real downright useful and effective playing Alf Smith and ‘Rat’ Westwick had something on any of them. Smith could play the wing better than any one I ever saw and I once saw him lay it over Tommy Phillips. Westwick lacked the shot only to make him just about the greatest ever”
A so-called “prominent sporting man” reportedly said:
“I see Russell Bowie is up to his old tricks of making the goalkeeper look like a wooden Indian in front of a cigar store. There is one player who could have filled in his own figures in an N.H.A. contract if he wanted to participate in the ‘pro’ league. To my mind he was the greatest player that ever lived. What he hadn’t no one ever had. We was fast and tricky and walked right in on the defence before he ever thought of shooting. He had a great trick of playing the rubber to the boards and if his check blocked the puck he would clap his hand to the side of his head and drop to one knee, giving the impression that he was injured. The referee would instantly stop the game and chase the other man to the fence. That was Bowie’s only fault- his propensity for faking”
An old member of the Ottawa club said:
“There was no doubt Bowie was a great player, but there is a little fair haired fellow in Ottawa who was them all stopped”
“His name is Frank McGee. He could carry the puck on a straight line to the goal like a quarter-back bucks the line. And game! Say, that fellow had lions and bulldogs looking like yellow pups. He played hockey when a crack over the head was about as serious as a minor warning in the present rules of the N.H.A. and when a player with ability was a marked man. And don’t think he never got any bumps. Why, he wore more pads than any man on the Ottawa team and after a bruising game would strip black and blue in front, behind, top and bottom. Incidentally he gave about as much punishment as he received”
The article also wrote that “Lester Patrick, of the local team, was among those mentioned as deserving of a place in the hockey hall of fame”
A couple more before I go to work-
Edmonton Journal, 12 October 1912 page 25
C.C. Stein, of the Winnipeg Tribune, wrote an article about the greatest shots in hockey.
“Naming a successor to Burke Wood [who?] and Tommy Phillips, the western shooting giants, is not an easy task”
“In the east they claim that Pitre, the sensational Canadien, propels the puck at the goal tend with greater speed than any other player, but at the Coast there is a smouldering suspicion that ‘Newsy’ Lalonde is peerless in the art of inspiring the man between the nets with watchfulness and care”
“Lester Patrick thinks Lalonde is the most dangerous shot in hockey. ‘He shoots every bit as hard a Pitre’, says the former Montreal Wanderer, who has seen the best of them in the last fifteen years, ‘and is much more deadly’”
“Pitre drives them with terrific force, but he shoots high, and is not in the same class with Lalonde for accuracy”
“Lester was asked how it was that ‘Newsy’ didn’t score more goals on Victoria, the team that is under the management of the lanky point.
‘Because it didn’t take long to discover a way to keep Lalonde from scoring’
‘And is that method easy?’
‘It’s very simple. All that is necessary is to keep the puck away from him. Failing in that it is good policy to have three or four players- more, if you can spare them- skate him to the side and pocket him before he has a chance to get into shooting position”
“Burke Wood used to make the rubber sing and the boards quiver when he missed the goal. Burke, however, could only shoot with his full force from ine angle. Lalonde is the same. ‘Newsy is probably without rival today in shooting when driving the puck from his favorite position. Pitre shoots with tremendous force but is as wild as a hawk”
“That's why all these players famed for hard shooting will have to doff their hats to Tommy Phillips. ‘Nibs’, it will be remember, had a habit of going down the ice like a streak of greased lightning. He would never stop to brace himself for a shot, and it didn’t matter what angle Tommy was in- he could shoot just as hard and true from the left as from the right. In this respect his equal has never been seen in hockey”
Daily News Advertiser, 7 December 1915 page 6
“The summing up always found Tommy Phillips, the famous Kenora product, in highest esteem. Phillips specialized in wrist strength that made him the most feared of all sharpshooters. Tommy could shoot from any angle. Give him a couple of inches space and no matter whether he was travelling at forty miles an hour or standing ‘set’, the puck whistled on a dead line to its mark. Tommy did not develop his wonderful scoring powers at the expense of his skill in other directions, however, but his work was of so efficient an all-around character that he was generally conceded to be the king of the all when in his prime”
The Winnipeg Tribune, 5 January 1906 page 8
“The absence of Tommy Phillips from the lineup is given as the reason for the defeat of the Thistles”
The Winnipeg Tribune, 22 January 1907, page 8
“Tom Phillips, captain and left wing of the Kenora Thistles, is perhaps the most noted hockey in Canada today. In the hockey world this name has come to stand for marvellous speed, unerring shooting, magnificent endurance and generalship of Napoleanic brand”
“Phillips weighs 165, and stands 5 feet 8 ½ inches”
“As a hockey played [sic] he [Phillips] is built for speed and endurance. As he makes his whirlwind rushes with long sweeping, clean cut strides fown left wing, he brushes his opponents off life flies. Phillips is a goal getter. His shot is swift and true and comes from the most inconceivable places, and he is a staver and nevers says die until the gong sounds”
B.C. Saturday Sunset, 12 September 1908 page 15
“During recent years there has been no more sought after player in the world than Tommy Phillips, and when Ottawa secured him last winter from the defunct Kenora team they obtained one of the most brilliant exponents of the game who ever handled a stick or stood on a pair of skates. Tommy is a born hockey player, if that is possible, and throughout the Dominion he is regarded as the greatest and only one”
The Winnipeg Tribune, 17 November 1911 page 7
“Although it has been generally understood that Tommy Phillips, probably the most brilliant hockey player of all times, is out of the game for good…”
Edmonton Journal, 12 October 1912 page 25
C.C. Stein, of the Winnipeg Tribune, wrote an article about the greatest shots in hockey.
“Naming a successor to Burke Wood [who?] and Tommy Phillips, the western shooting giants, is not an easy task”
“In the east they claim that Pitre, the sensational Canadien, propels the puck at the goal tend with greater speed than any other player, but at the Coast there is a smouldering suspicion that ‘Newsy’ Lalonde is peerless in the art of inspiring the man between the nets with watchfulness and care”
“Lester Patrick thinks Lalonde is the most dangerous shot in hockey. ‘He shoots every bit as hard a Pitre’, says the former Montreal Wanderer, who has seen the best of them in the last fifteen years, ‘and is much more deadly’”
“Pitre drives them with terrific force, but he shoots high, and is not in the same class with Lalonde for accuracy”
“Lester was asked how it was that ‘Newsy’ didn’t score more goals on Victoria, the team that is under the management of the lanky point.
‘Because it didn’t take long to discover a way to keep Lalonde from scoring’
‘And is that method easy?’
‘It’s very simple. All that is necessary is to keep the puck away from him. Failing in that it is good policy to have three or four players- more, if you can spare them- skate him to the side and pocket him before he has a chance to get into shooting position”
“Burke Wood used to make the rubber sing and the boards quiver when he missed the goal. Burke, however, could only shoot with his full force from ine angle. Lalonde is the same. ‘Newsy is probably without rival today in shooting when driving the puck from his favorite position. Pitre shoots with tremendous force but is as wild as a hawk”
“That's why all these players famed for hard shooting will have to doff their hats to Tommy Phillips. ‘Nibs’, it will be remember, had a habit of going down the ice like a streak of greased lightning. He would never stop to brace himself for a shot, and it didn’t matter what angle Tommy was in- he could shoot just as hard and true from the left as from the right. In this respect his equal has never been seen in hockey”
Daily News Advertiser, 7 December 1915 page 6
“The summing up always found Tommy Phillips, the famous Kenora product, in highest esteem. Phillips specialized in wrist strength that made him the most feared of all sharpshooters. Tommy could shoot from any angle. Give him a couple of inches space and no matter whether he was travelling at forty miles an hour or standing ‘set’, the puck whistled on a dead line to its mark. Tommy did not develop his wonderful scoring powers at the expense of his skill in other directions, however, but his work was of so efficient an all-around character that he was generally conceded to be the king of the all when in his prime”
The Winnipeg Tribune, 5 January 1906 page 8
“The absence of Tommy Phillips from the lineup is given as the reason for the defeat of the Thistles”
The Winnipeg Tribune, 22 January 1907, page 8
“Tom Phillips, captain and left wing of the Kenora Thistles, is perhaps the most noted hockey in Canada today. In the hockey world this name has come to stand for marvellous speed, unerring shooting, magnificent endurance and generalship of Napoleanic brand”
“Phillips weighs 165, and stands 5 feet 8 ½ inches”
“As a hockey played [sic] he [Phillips] is built for speed and endurance. As he makes his whirlwind rushes with long sweeping, clean cut strides fown left wing, he brushes his opponents off life flies. Phillips is a goal getter. His shot is swift and true and comes from the most inconceivable places, and he is a staver and nevers says die until the gong sounds”
B.C. Saturday Sunset, 12 September 1908 page 15
“During recent years there has been no more sought after player in the world than Tommy Phillips, and when Ottawa secured him last winter from the defunct Kenora team they obtained one of the most brilliant exponents of the game who ever handled a stick or stood on a pair of skates. Tommy is a born hockey player, if that is possible, and throughout the Dominion he is regarded as the greatest and only one”
The Winnipeg Tribune, 17 November 1911 page 7
“Although it has been generally understood that Tommy Phillips, probably the most brilliant hockey player of all times, is out of the game for good…”
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Yes and obviously talent isn't distributed equally and player movement seemed pretty limited within a given league so it's totally possible that Ottawa has this stacked team of superstar talent.
But as I posted in the last thread, Nighbor (the best player of the era) joins the senators again for 1915-16, the team already has the all the other "main" Senators except Denney who joins the following year and Cleghorn 2 years later. And they didn't win until 1920. They just could not get passed Lalonde's Habs which had a fierce back and forth against the Mets in 1917 & 1919.
If the Senators had this many great players (top 10-15) all time, if anything they should've won more.
Sturminator
Love is a duel
If you want to verify what I'm saying, simply read their respective ATD profiles. It's all in there. I was trying to offer the reader a handy summation, and possibly save a bit of time.
I have mucked with these documents plenty, myself. By all means spend your morning verifying all of it because there is certainly at least some nuance stripped out of a very bare bones summation like "they all starred at various times." I hope every single voter in this project goes and reads those source documents, but I suspect that this will not be the case.
As for inducting them all this round, I personally think that it's possible they're all a little overrated for having played together...all but Nighbor, that is. I tend to be skeptical of the Geoffrions and Dennenys of hockey history (to say nothing of the Olmsteads and Shutts) because I know they look better in the light cast by their superior team/linemates.
Of the Sens available at this point, I think Denneny clearly does not belong. The wattage on his star power may have been the lowest of any player available this round, scoring exploits be damned. No one seems to have wanted to give Denneny all that much credit for that team's success, and I've always found that concerning.
Gerard is something of a Serge Savard figure for me in terms of what he brought as a defenseman. Not exactly a superstar, imo, but a great player who was a vital cog on great teams.
Boucher is harder to pin, but I think of him as something like a poor man's Brad Park. Strong skater in his youth, but broken down later after a knee injury, tough hitter, could stickhandle in a phone booth and score with the best of them...story checks out.
As to why those Sens teams didn't win even more...? Good question, but you know as well as I do that providing a holistic answer to it might fill volumes.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Another player receiving the "Cyclone" nick name of the era
The Edmonton Bulletin, February 1, 1923
"More dashing, dazzling, sizzling play, and "Cyclone" Art Gagne came into possession of the rubber behind his own blue line. He was off in a cloud. Zig Zagging his speedy way through the entire Regina team. "
There are other references to him being called that as early as 1921.
Did Frederickson carry the puck up ice a lot? As that was inspiration for Taylor's nick-name and the descriptions of Gagne's play match that I'd expect it to be a common name for those who carried the puck and went through the whole team.
Back on topic...
The Edmonton Bulletin, March 17, 1923
"Two men, Frank Frederickson of Victoria and Joe Simpson of Edmonton stand out head and shoulders above the other players in the same positions. If they above all star group were peaks of the Himalayas Frederickson and Simpson would be a pair of towering Mt Everests. As a center man the Icelander is the consummation of all that is desired in a player in that position. Briefly he is a two-way sixty minute man of ample weight posessing unrivalled speed and goal getting ability together with a disposition for unselfish team play and a temperament that keeps him on the ice. Beyond the shadow of a doubt his is the king of center icemen today, whose like will not be produced for many seasons to come.The team
Lehman - G
Simpson - RD
C. Loughlin -LD
Frederickson - C
Gagne - RW
Hay - LW
Keats -Sub C
MacKay - Sub RW
Riley - Sub LW
L. Cook - Sub D
Blairmore Enterprise, January 20, 1921
(a small town in the Alberta side of the rockies)"Frank Frederickson former captain of the famous Falcons of Winnipeg, world's amateur champions is hailed by Victoria critics as the Babe Ruth of hockey"
Sturminator
Love is a duel
Yeah, that's the thing. I do think there were a lot of "Cyclones" around the sporting world at the time. Just like there were a lot of "Babes" and "Mooses" and "Rats" and "Scooters". It must have been a strange time to be alive.
It's hard to know what to make of it, but the fact that Taylor had such an apparently common nickname, in itself dims his star a bit for me. I used to consider the "Cyclone" title somewhat iconic before I realized how commonplace it actually was. Certainly nothing like "Peerless Frank" or "The Pembroke Peach"...completely distinctive monikers which have never been copied or stolen.
We're very tangential at this point, but it's another strike against the supposed wattage of Taylor's star power pretty much no matter how you slice it.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I feel like that's a bit of a leap, Cyclone became Taylor's commonly used first name in the papers. He was so ubiquitously known as Cyclone that all observes knew who you were referring to during his playing career. I did a search through Edmonton based papers for Cyclone and I only find Gagne and Taylor referenced that way, though the search was not exhaustive. And as I said the genesis of the nickname was his skating ability and his ability to carry the puck through the full team. Tons of players have rushes referenced as "cyclonic".
I also love the juxtaposition by the two bolded sections "hard to know what to make it" but it is definitely "a strike against Taylor's star power".
Sturminator
Love is a duel
In comparison to Frank Nighbor, it absolutely is.
"Peerless Frank" was the "The Great One" moniker of that era. No one else in hockey history has ever been called "peerless". We all know what that word means. The semiotics of this aren't hard to work out.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
The main reason is probably simply that Frank McGee's career was cut extremely short. Otherwise, he's more firmly in the Hod Stuart vs Tommy Phillips vs Russell Bowie conversation for "best of the pre-WW1 players," right?
Now that I think about it, I had Frank McGee well below Hod Stuart on my submitted list, and now I'm thinking I overly punished McGee for the short career.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
overpass
Registered User
Here’s a Baz O’Meara (Montreal Star) piece from 1939 where he comments on Art Ross’s all time team and adds his own opinions. He rates 5 great two way defencemen of all time - Gerard, Shore, Clancy, Cleghorn, and Stuart. There’s some description of Gerard’s game here, as well as Hod Stuart.
www.newspapers.com
Eddie Gerard, Eddie Shore, Frank Clancy, Sprague Cleghorn, and Hod Stuart were the best two way defencemen of all hockey history. Gerard was a grand defender, and he was a far faster skater than Shore on attack, but he was a weak shot and while he had many assists in his day he scored few goals.
In one game he scored three and came laughing Into the dressing room to announce that his scoring was over for the season. But Eddie would go tearing up the ice jumping sticks and making beautiful passes to Denneny and Broadbent that they usually turned to account.
The phrase ‘‘Dashing Eddie Gerard” became a synonym for hockey. Stuart could rush and defend and he starred in the rough tough old International League and in the old CHL in turbulent days when he was a marked man in every game.
Stuart was a great gamester. There was one In Ottawa in which Harry Smith faced off the puck, rushed, and passed. As he passed Stuart he hit him a terrible blow with his stick, breaking his nose and splitting him on both sides.
Ten minutes later Stuart came off the dressing room table, dashed out on the ice and led Wanderers to an inspiring victory He was a great man, a 190 pounder, over six feet in height. Lester Patrick will tell you, if he has not changed his mind for the benefit of Manhattan hockey fans, that he was the greatest of all defencemen.
Fans remember the two way play of Clancy. Not so hot defensively but as an attacker in a class by himself among defence-men and he still holds the scoring record from the defence.
Ross in picking Bill Cook and Tom Phillips won t get much of an argument except from the Joliat fancier. Joliat, we think was a better player, but for left wing anyone would settle for Phillips too.
Baz O'Meara comments on Art Ross's all-time team.
Clipping found in The Montreal Star published in Montreal, Quebec, Canada on 11/30/1939. Baz O'Meara comments on Art Ross's all-time team.
www.newspapers.com
Eddie Gerard, Eddie Shore, Frank Clancy, Sprague Cleghorn, and Hod Stuart were the best two way defencemen of all hockey history. Gerard was a grand defender, and he was a far faster skater than Shore on attack, but he was a weak shot and while he had many assists in his day he scored few goals.
In one game he scored three and came laughing Into the dressing room to announce that his scoring was over for the season. But Eddie would go tearing up the ice jumping sticks and making beautiful passes to Denneny and Broadbent that they usually turned to account.
The phrase ‘‘Dashing Eddie Gerard” became a synonym for hockey. Stuart could rush and defend and he starred in the rough tough old International League and in the old CHL in turbulent days when he was a marked man in every game.
Stuart was a great gamester. There was one In Ottawa in which Harry Smith faced off the puck, rushed, and passed. As he passed Stuart he hit him a terrible blow with his stick, breaking his nose and splitting him on both sides.
Ten minutes later Stuart came off the dressing room table, dashed out on the ice and led Wanderers to an inspiring victory He was a great man, a 190 pounder, over six feet in height. Lester Patrick will tell you, if he has not changed his mind for the benefit of Manhattan hockey fans, that he was the greatest of all defencemen.
Fans remember the two way play of Clancy. Not so hot defensively but as an attacker in a class by himself among defence-men and he still holds the scoring record from the defence.
Ross in picking Bill Cook and Tom Phillips won t get much of an argument except from the Joliat fancier. Joliat, we think was a better player, but for left wing anyone would settle for Phillips too.
Sturminator
Love is a duel
Eh, did they call Percy that? Good for him...it should probably tell us something. I do think he was clearly the best goalie of his era.
I guess that concludes our TED talk on the semiotics of nicknames. Thanks for joining us. We'll be doing a deep dive on Aubrey "Dit" Clapper next week. Hope you all tune in.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Part of it is simply that sports were consumed primarily through newspapers, and newspaper writers put a lot of value on short, pithy descriptions. "Cyclonic rush" takes a lot less ink than "skated out of his zone, dodged around a couple of guys, and ended up trying to split the defense".
A parallel term during this same time period is "whirlwind". These quotes have all appeared in our project already:
- but then Bowie “made a whirlwind rush” and tied the game
- As he makes his whirlwind rushes with long sweeping, clean cut strides fown left wing, he brushes his opponents off life flies.
- Taylor is a whirlwind, and has a superior on not any of the league teams.
- McGee put up a whirlwind game and was the best man on the ice.
- Bowie and Stuart the centre men, made whirlwind rushes throughout the match.
- Billy Gilmour had his check up in the air all the time and went up the side like a whirlwind.
And another parallel, "tornado", taken from newspapers of the 1910s:
- When [Harry] Scott begins to hurdle sticks and rip thru center like a tornado, right onto the goal-minder's pads, it's time to say that he is letting out.
- [Moose] Johnson is going like a tornado and unless [Cyclone] Taylor is on his mettle, Vancouver people will see the downfall of their new idol.
- A minute later Bobby Rowe came down the ice like a tornado and netted the puck for the equalizer.
I don't think any of this particularly bears on Taylor's stardom relative to other players. Nicknames make the game interesting and that's what sells papers. The language of those nicknames will naturally reflect the sports culture of the times.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
How many people even watched Hod Stuart play on a regular basis? He peaked in a small time league, and I don't think participated in any Cup challenges.Here’s a Baz O’Meara (Montreal Star) piece from 1939 where he comments on Art Ross’s all time team and adds his own opinions. He rates 5 great two way defencemen of all time - Gerard, Shore, Clancy, Cleghorn, and Stuart. There’s some description of Gerard’s game here, as well as Hod Stuart.
Baz O'Meara comments on Art Ross's all-time team.
Clipping found in The Montreal Star published in Montreal, Quebec, Canada on 11/30/1939. Baz O'Meara comments on Art Ross's all-time team.
Eddie Gerard, Eddie Shore, Frank Clancy, Sprague Cleghorn, and Hod Stuart were the best two way defencemen of all hockey history. Gerard was a grand defender, and he was a far faster skater than Shore on attack, but he was a weak shot and while he had many assists in his day he scored few goals.
In one game he scored three and came laughing Into the dressing room to announce that his scoring was over for the season. But Eddie would go tearing up the ice jumping sticks and making beautiful passes to Denneny and Broadbent that they usually turned to account.
The phrase ‘‘Dashing Eddie Gerard” became a synonym for hockey. Stuart could rush and defend and he starred in the rough tough old International League and in the old CHL in turbulent days when he was a marked man in every game.
Stuart was a great gamester. There was one In Ottawa in which Harry Smith faced off the puck, rushed, and passed. As he passed Stuart he hit him a terrible blow with his stick, breaking his nose and splitting him on both sides.
Ten minutes later Stuart came off the dressing room table, dashed out on the ice and led Wanderers to an inspiring victory He was a great man, a 190 pounder, over six feet in height. Lester Patrick will tell you, if he has not changed his mind for the benefit of Manhattan hockey fans, that he was the greatest of all defencemen.
Fans remember the two way play of Clancy. Not so hot defensively but as an attacker in a class by himself among defence-men and he still holds the scoring record from the defence.
Ross in picking Bill Cook and Tom Phillips won t get much of an argument except from the Joliat fancier. Joliat, we think was a better player, but for left wing anyone would settle for Phillips too.
I mean, we very well may be talking about a Phaneuf/McCabe type of guy who does all the flashy stuff right but not the fundamentals... of course that's insulting to Stuart... maybe a Rob Blake type would make as much sense without the insult? Of course, Stuart should get a ton of credit - people praised him to high heavens, but I do think there is a little reason to be skeptical.
Based on the leagues he played in, Hod Stuart would have had the fewest eyes regularly on him of all the players who came up for discussion, right?
Or maybe his IHL teams really were so dreadful that they needed him to carry them to the few victories they got?
Sturminator
Love is a duel
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
In terms of regular season, yes. But Phillips played in a lot of Cup challenges as a highly paid "ringer."
The highest paid, at some points, for whatever it is worth.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
It says 2 things - 1) Phillips was really good; 2) he was willing to sell himself to the highest bidder at a time when the "purists" like Russell Bowie found that distasteful.
Sturminator
Love is a duel
Which I think is a point in Phillip's favor, to be honest.
I won't hold Bowie's anachronistic and somewhat elitist (even perhaps for the time) beliefs against him vis-a-vis professional vs. amateur sport, but I like the fact that Phillips wanted his name on the Cup, though I think there was also a financial incentive for Phillips that Bowie probably didn't have.
Tommy Phillips was, by all accounts, an absolute gamer who pretty much made every team his own. It is really hard to pin his level of ability due to the level of competition, but people who saw both Phillips and later generations (with "established superstars" in HoH terms in them) still raved about his abilities.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
That's a fair point, though it's kind of hard to make a case for the Silver Seven players against their positional counterparts.
G - Hutton vs Benedict - Hutton is a HOF'er and no slouch, but I don't know of him being regarded as a towering figure of his generation. According to people who saw them all play, Benedict rivals Vezina and Lehman as the GOAT of the pre-consolidation era (and perhaps the pre-WWII era), which seems to make this pretty open-and-shut.
D- Pulford vs Cleghorn - Cleghorn had nearly unparalleled longevity as a high-impact player, especially for this time period. He very narrowly missed out on the Hart Trophy in 1926, when he was 35 years old which would have set a record that would still not be broken (though tied twice). Also, there were no holes in Cleghorn's game whereas Pulford was notably offense-challenged even among defenseman of this time period. It's fair to say Cleghorn was better at his peak and had better staying power, so not much of an argument here.
D - Moore vs Gerard or Boucher - I'm open to being corrected, but I don't believe this argument has legs.
C - McGee vs Nighbor - @TheDevilMadeMe has already made the point a few posts up... McGee only played a handful of senior-level seasons and retired at 23. Nighbor was still a Hart contender at 33. Even if we disregard competition entirely, and assume they had a similar peak, there's really no argument for McGee's total career over Nighbor's total career.
W - Westwick/Smith vs Denneny/Broadbent - This is close enough to perhaps warrant a closer look, though I suspect at least Denneny will be off the board before we see any of the other three. If there's an argument to be made for either of Westwick or Smith as the superior player over Denneny, now would be the time to make it.
I don't mean to be flippant when I say the answer to "Why are their stars not worthy of a top 10 spot?" is "Because their case isn't good enough". But that is pretty much the situation we have here. Even if we penalize the later Sens for being too good as a group (or not good enough in the playoffs? oddly they seem to be getting it from both ends) the fact remains that they were a team comprised, almost to a man, of players with exceptionally high peaks, exceptionally strong longevity, and exceptionally sound and well-rounded skill sets. And if we were ranking coaches, Pete Green would probably be #1 as well. Maybe if they had all played in weak organizations it would have worked out differently for them, but that's not what happened.
Sturminator
Love is a duel
There is actually a possible narrative about Phillips that he was just playing for the highest bidder most of the time (I know nothing about the man's personal life, background, or financial situation, so keep your sticks down), and that his teams happened to win a lot because he was on them.
The "greedy Phillips" narrative in many ways actaully paints him in a better light as a player, imo.
I'm not necessarily endorsing this, but I think it's one possible explanation for what's on the historical record. Phillips was a ringer in the true sense...perhaps?
The "greedy Phillips" narrative in many ways actaully paints him in a better light as a player, imo.
I'm not necessarily endorsing this, but I think it's one possible explanation for what's on the historical record. Phillips was a ringer in the true sense...perhaps?
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