Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 2

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Things that have come in handy these first 2 rounds. Stellar, and I mean stellar work from @BenchBrawl and @ResilientBeast in terms of the Ottawa dynasty and PCHA lore, especially Lehman, who has greatly improved in my eyes, over the years thanks in large part to RB. It's hard to rank him ahead of Benedict but the gap that once existed, is much smaller certainly.

Phillips looks strong here. Another player I'm pretty familiar with from my own studies, but the enhanced discussion is really putting him into a brighter light.

Question for the group.

Who do you think was more renowned? Phillips or Joe Malone?
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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Disclaimer- this is a quick/rough overview of the Stanley Cup Challenge games that Tommy Phillips played in (as far as I am aware). I’m sure there are more sources out there that I did not explore, so this should not be considered a comprehensive piece of research but rather a useful collection of snippets to provide some insight into some of what was being said about Phillips in the immediate aftermath of these games. Please excuse the lack of formatting and any typing errors, as I’m rushing to get this done before people start submitting ballots. I’ll also blame my children for being sick and trying to drag me down with them.

Stanley Cup Game 1: Tommy Phillips played for Montreal HC against the Winnipeg Victorias, 29 January 1903. Montreal HC won 8-1. Phillips didn’t score, but one source credits him with an assist. He also had a couple penalties.

The Gazette 30 January 1903 said:
Each player did his best and that best was good indeed. Phillips was most fortunate in making his bow to a senior audience under such circumstances, and it is given to but a few athletes to make their initial appearance in the first flight under such circumstances. The game he played fully justified the action of Montreal’s managers in sending him out, and he was a valuable acquisition to the attack last night. He played a strong and fairly fast game, checking well and considering that he was up against the best forward player on the ice, Scanlan, he is entitled to due credit for his performance

The Montreal Star 30 January 1903 said:
Phillips, the new Montreal man, formerly of McGill and before that of Rat Portage, showed up fairly well, and though he was ruled off once or twice, he followed what were presumably his instructions, namely, to watch Scanlan, and let the other fellows look after the puck. Once, however, he looked after the puck so well, that if it had not been for one of the really good stops which Oleson occasionally made, he would have scored, for he made a long, clean, straight shot on the Winnipeg goals.

“Phillips’ work satisfied me. He covered his man, did he not? That was the only game to play under conditions like those of yesterday. Man against man [comment- this was a quote from Dicky Boon, captain of Montreal HC].

The Ottawa Citizen 30 January 1903 said:
Then Phillips, the new man, watched Scanlan, and very seldom did the ex-Shamrock man figure prominently in the game.

Phillips was closely watched as this was his first match in senior company. He didn’t show much speed and didn’t score but he sent in some beautiful shots and his checking with body and stick was very good indeed.

Stanley Cup Game 2: Game ended up being nullified because it went past curfew, but I’m counting it here. Tommy Phillips played for Montreal HC against the Winnipeg Victorias, 31 January 1903. The game was tied 2-2. A couple sources report that Phillips scored, but not every source agreed. He was also sent to the side 4 times.

The Montreal Star 2 February 1903 said:
Phillips played rough, but made some great runs, and it was the result of one of these that he managed to score the second goal.

This seemed to inspire Montreal and shortly after Phillips saw his opening and tearing down the whole length of the rink, passed both cover and point and put the puck in the net, completing the best piece of individual play of the evening

The Gazette 2 February 1903 said:
Phillips lived up to the promises he gave of good work and played a steady and consistent game on his wing, and as he was playing on the best man on the ice his work was noticeable.

Stanley Cup Game 3: Phillips played for Montreal HC against the Winnipeg Victorias on 2 February 1903. Winnipeg won 4-2. Not much was written about Phillips for this one.

The Montreal Star 3 February 1903 said:
After that Phillips was put on, and although he has proven himself quite a find, has not travelled sufficiently long in Senior Company to acquire the finesse and to forget the easy and careless ways of the intermediate class to which in reality the people with whom he has played in the past belong, to beget the confidence of his fellows which is necessary for success.

Phillips worked hard and made some great attempts to score, but seemed to run over the puck often.

Stanley Cup Game 4: Phillips played for Montreal HC against the Winnipeg Victorias on 4 February 1904. Montreal HC won 4-1 to secure the Cup. Phillips scored twice. He also may have gotten an assist, having centered the puck to the front of the net, where, in the midst of a scrum, it either banked off a Montreal HC player or someone shot the puck in.

The Ottawa Citizen 5 February 1903 said:
Phillips was moved to left wing which is his old position. Smith came on the right. Phillips more than held Gingras and showed himself the best man on the ice.

Montreal won through the aggressiveness of their forward line and especially the wonderful game of Phillips down the left fence.

…passed to Phillips who scored on a long, pretty shot. Montreal again attacked mostly through Phillips’ corner work.

…where Phillips once more sent a long half high shot past Olsen.

The Montreal Star 5 February 1903 said:
Phillips proved himself a coming star last night. With a little more care, and a little more finish he will become one of the most brilliant players seen here.

He played on a side of the team to which he is an utter stranger, and if it had not been for that, he would probably have scored much oftener

The Gazette 5 February 1903 said:
Phillips went over to Gingras’ side and performed excellent service.

Phillips made another of his wonderful runs, and his swift front shot was too much for Oleson, and Montreal was ahead.

Then Phillips charged down again, and a pretty shot from the right side shook the net and brought the crowd to their feet en masse, and there was a cheer that rattled the window panes.

Phillips was in a little foul checking and was sent off.

Tom Phillips then played for the Toronto Malboros in 1904, as a rover. His wiki page states that there were four SC games (where he compiled an impressive 7 goals and 8 assists), but a quick search is only pulling up two games, on 23 and 25 February against the Ottawa Silver Seven.. This lines up with the wiki page that tracks SC games, so I’m wondering if the stats on Phillips’ page include some OHA playoff games as well.

Stanley Cup Game 5: Phillips plays rover for the Toronto Malboros against the Ottawa HC on 23 February 1904. Ottawa wins 6-3. An Ottawa paper noted that Phillips was suffering from injurie obtained earlier in the season. Phillips scored the first goal of the match according to one source, but it is not unanimous across sources; Phillips appears to have gotten the assist if not the goal, however. It looks like Phillips got the assist on the second Malboros goal.

I know this post is about Phillips, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t comment on how dominant McGee was.

The Ottawa Citizen 24 February 1904 said:
Tom Phillips is the star of the visiting aggregation of hockeyists and a whirlwind on blades but he is too much inclined to rough it and his checking was at times fierce.

The Ottawa Journal 24 February 1904 said:
Phillips, erstwhile, of Rat Portage, McGill University and Montreal, was a speedy skate, skillful stick-handler, and deadly shot, but he displayed poor headwork, instead of played rover, he played on the defence, and when he should have been initiating attacks, he was lifting the puck to Moore, who would toss the rubber disk high over Phillips' head. Practically all the Malrboros’ attacks were made by the other three forwards, and for about a third of the time, Phillips might have as well been in Hamilton as at the Aberdeen Pavilion.

The Montreal Star 24 February 1904 said:
Shortly after starting Phillips deliberately waited for Gilmour and threw him clean over his head, but did not hurt him.

The Gazette 24 February 1904 said:
Phillips and Earls were the stars on the forward line, although McLaren and Birmingham put up good games.

Stanley Cup Game 6: The second game of the series between Toronto and Ottawa, Ottawa won 11-2. Phillips again played rover, and was again noted for a penalty or two. Phillips got the first goal for Toronto, and was noted for several fine rushes.

Again, though, McGee. What a player.

The Ottawa Citizen 26 February 1904 said:
Tom Phillips is much too fast a man for the company in which he is traveling and his herculean efforts to stave off a crushing defeat for his team simply met with no support at all. When he went in he generally had to go it alone; nobody on the team had the speed to accompany him.

Phillipps and Geroux can go home with the satisfaction of knowing that each did his full share in the fruitless endeavor to lift the cup.

The Ottawa Journal 26 February 1904 said:
They were up against a team made up of so many Phillips and Gerouxs, and that they were defeated may well ascribe their defeat to their lack of staying powers on a big sheet of ice.

The Montreal Star 26 February 1904 said:
Phillips was just about the only Malboro man who showed up in form, and he played a grand game.

The whole Marlboro team were satisfied with defence work, Phillips alone showing a progressive spirit by making several individual rushes.

1905 is next, Phillips now playing for the Rat Portage Thistles. There was a three game series against Ottawa HC, which took place on 7, 9, and 11 March 1905.

Stanley Cup Game 7: Phillips is back on LW as the Thistles win 9-3 in a game that McGee and Gilmour missed. Tommy had quite the game, scoring anywhere from 4-6 goals, depending on the source.

The Montreal Star 8 March 1905 said:
Talking of speed, Tom Phillips was the fastest man on the ice, with perhaps Griffis and Westwick next. Alf. Smith had a sorry time of it looking after Phillips. He simply couldn’t do it and if blamed for the defeat be attached to one individual more than another, certainly Smith had much to do with losing the game.

Phillips is a wonder.
Of course it was hard to have to watch the greatest left wing to-day in the game, possibly the greatest who has ever been seen in Canada, a master of every art included under the designation hockey, a speedy skater, a stickhandler far anova average, a diplomat on ice, for Phillips is only a player, he is a general. The like of Phillips’ play has not been seen in Ottawa for years, and the crowd cheered him as best a beaten crowd can.

Instead of this Phillips got hold and rushing up the ice all by himself, outdistanced the forwards, skated round Moore, beat Pulford, and scored with such a fast shot that the crowd were amazed when it was learned that the Ottawas were down one.

The Gazette 8 March 1905 said:
… and it was evident that the coaching of Tom Phillips had borne good fruit, and it was not often that Harvey found his man.

Tom Phillips is really the slowest man of the attacking quartette, and those who have seen Phillips play in Montreal know that Phillips had more speed at that time than most of the players in this vicinity. Phillips is the same finished player and is as strenuous here as he was on the local hockey colony. In fact, he seems to have improved to a considerable extent. His runs were always dashing, and his shooting was deadly.

The Ottawa Journal 8 March 1905 said:
Tom Phillips was the best man on the ice.

Phillips was the most aggressive man on the team. He and Smith clashed time and time again, and there were many who thought the western captain had the better of the local man. But Smith had more than one man to watch.

Tom Phillips was the best individual player on the ice, and gave the finest exhibition any single player has given this season in Ottawa.

Stanley Cup Game 8: Ottawa wins this one 4-2. Tommy Phillips appeared to have had an off night. McGee (called “The man with the wrist of steel” by one publication) and Hamilton (Billy) Gilmour suited up, and are credited with making a difference in the outcome of the game, though others point to the poor ice. Phillips looks to have assisted on one of the Thistles’ goals.

The Ottawa Journal 10 March 1905 said:
Phillips was not so prominent as on Tuesday, yet at the beginning of the game he was the most brilliant player on the ice. Towards the end he was playing on his reputation.

The Montreal Star 10 March 1905 said:
Phillips was not nearly so brilliant as usual, and this was undoubtedly due to the sloppy surface. Before the ice became cut up he was the best man present.

Stanley Cup Game 9: Ottawa wins again, this time 5-4, to retain the Cup. Phillips scores 3 and gets the assist on his team’s fourth.

The Gazette 13 March 1905 said:
Pulford was more the leader than any man on his side and vied with Tom Phillips for the individual honors of the series of games which have been fought for the much-coveted trophy.

Phillips headed the list of scorers, notching 7 goals in the three games.

The Montreal Star 13 March 1905 said:
They look as if they must always be a team of individuals. This is on account of the great speed of Griffis and Phillips. No one else can live with them. Any combination there is exists between the two, but there it begins and ends.

The most brilliant players of the two teams over all the series were Phillips, Griffis and Pulford.

Phillips and Griffis the Best Ever
Of Phillips and Griffis it is sufficient to say that they were easily the finest forwards on the ice. They were the fastest, the best stickhandlers, and incomparably the greatest individual players. Nothing finer has ever been seen here than their great rushes. They were a perfect terror to the Ottawa defence and between them one or other accounted for every goal that Rat Portage scored. They are the cause of the lack of combination on the part of Rat Portage, for they are too fast for the others.

The Ottawa Journal 13 March 1905 said:
Tom Phillips
The Most Energetic and Brilliant Man on the Challengers

Phillips, despite the terrible grueling he sustained, gave as good (or as bad) as he received, and up to the last moment was as dangerous as ever. The strange part of his work, however, was his erratic shooting.

Next up is 1907, where Phillips plays for the Kenora Thistles. Kenora would take the Cup from the Wanderers in a two game series in January 1907, defend it against the Brandon Wheat City in early March in a two game series, but then lost the Cup back to the Wanderers in mid-March in a two game series.

Stanley Cup Game 10: Tom Phillips played LW for the Thistles against the Montreal Wanderers on 17 January 1907. Phillips scored 4 goals as Kenora won 4-2.

The Gazette 18 January 1907 said:
Wanderer men seemed speedy in matches in the league and against New Glasgow, but last night their speed was not sufficient, even Pud Glass, thought to be the lively man of the champions line, was fairly offset. Of course, Glass was in a difficult position, he was placed on right wing so that he might combat Tom Phillips. Glass was out of place and Phillips was right at home. The balance of power was in favor of the speedy Thomas, and he was there throughout.

Phillips fairly flew down his own wing, found it blocked, circled forwards and defence like a flash and netted the disc by a long shot from the opposite wing. It was a lovely piece of work…

Phillips was coming down the left wing like a whirlwind, he shot as the disc struck his stick and with Hern pinned to the side from which the shot was expected, landed the disc in the opposite corner of the net. It was a beautiful shot and a lucky enough one in that an inch or two to one side it would have missed the nets, and an inch or two to the other it would have struck Hern.

Finding no opening on his [Phillips’] own, with amazing speed he cut a semi-circle around the group of players, swinging over to the opposite wing. Before the Wanderer defence grasped the significance of the move he let fire and with a shot exactly the same as the one with which he had scored before, he again eluded Hern, again in the same manner.

The Montreal Star 18 January 1907 said:
He [Phillips] went so fast at times that the puck, good as the ice was, could not keep up with his speed, and he covered a good deal more ground than was absolutely demanded by the exigencies of the occasion.

Mr. Phillips must have received his early training from a cyclone.

The Ottawa Journal 18 January 1907 said:
Tom Phillips, captain and left wing of the Kenora Thistles is perhaps the most noted hockeyist in Canada today. In the hockey world his name has come to stand for marvellous speed, unerring shooting, magnificent endurance and generalship of Napoleonic brand.
He first became known in the east with the Montreals of Montreal [comment- likely meaning Montreal HC] when they defended the Stanley Cup agains the Winnipeg Vics. He next appeared in Toronto with the Marlboros, O.H.A. champions. For the past few years Phillips has stayed in Kenora, refusing all kinds of tempting offers. Phillips weighs [illegible] and stands 5 feet 8 ½ inches.

As a hockey player he is [illegible] for speed and endurance. As he makes his whirlwind dashes [illegible] long sweeping clean cut [illegible] down left wing, he brushes his opponents off like flies. Phillips [illegible] goal getter. His shot is swift and [illegible] comes from the most [illegible] places, and he is a stayer and never says die until the gong sounds.

The Ottawa Citizen 18 January 1907 said:
Tom Phillips, the Thistle’s captain, the greatest left wing in the game.

Tom Phillips, apparently, is as brilliant as yore

Stanley Cup Game 11: Phillips is again at LW as the Thistles defeat the Wanderers 8-6 on 21 January 1907. Phillips has 3 goals and at least 1 assist.

The Gazette 22 January 1907 said:
Phillips The Star
Phillips was once more the star of the visitors, but Griffis and Ross shared honors…

The Montreal Star 22 January 1907 said:
… but Phillips, as usual, outplayed them all”

The Ottawa Journal 22 January 1907 said:
Phillips put the next in for Kenora, working through the entire Wanderer defense…

Tom Phillips, as usual, was the star of the challengers. He is very speedy and a great stick handler.

Stanley Cup Game 12: Phillips leads Kenora over Brandon 8-6 on 16 March, scoring 4 goals. Kenora’s star cover, Si Griffis, didn’t play in this one, but the team enlisted the services of two Ottawa players, Alf Smith at RW and Rat Westwick at center.

The Ottawa Journal 18 March 1907 said:
Whitcroft of Peterboro, was the star for the Kenors, closely followed by Tom Phillips.

Phillips and Whitcroft had to do the greater part of the work.

The Ottawa Citizen 18 March 1907 said:
Smith and Westwick Did Not Exert Themselves While Phillips and Whitcroft Starred

Whitcroft, formerly of Peterboro, was probably the most spectacular performer in Kenora’s ranks, and was closely seconded by Tom Phillips, who did great individual work.

Stanley Cup Game 13: Phillips is again on LW as Kenora wins 4-1 on 18 March to defend the Cup against Brandon. Smith and Westwick again joined Kenora, and it looks like they were the main stars of the game. It appears Phillips was held off the scoreboard, and a quick scan of the sources I have decided to use for this scan don’t mention Phillips’ play.

Stanley Cup Game 14: The Kenora Thistles fell to the Wanderers 7-2 on 23 March 1907, Phillips contributing a goal. Smith and Westwick are still playing for Kenora. Phillips reportedly played poorly (reportedly due to the ice); Westwick and Smith, moreso the latter, were noted as the stars of the Kenora team. Hod Stuart was credited for fine play on the Wanderer side, as was Ernie Russell, and, to a lesser extent, Johnson.

The Gazette 25 March 1907 said:
The one regrettable feature about the game was the fact of it being played on such poor ice. To this the decisive defeat of the Thistles may be largely ascribed, although the Wanderers say they would have preferred a hard surface, so that they could work their combination to greater advantage. Both teams undoubtedly suffered, but the Thistles were especially handicapped, Tom Phillips’ great speed and scoring ability being practically nullified. Somehow or other the peerless wing man never seemed to get going, and he gave what was undoubtedly the poorest exhibition of his career. While this may be ascribed largely to the ice, it is a fact worth repeating that he was closely checked all the time, Blachford sticking to him like a long lost brother.

Hod takes down, but Phillips catches him after a sprint and takes the puck.

Phillips seems slow at times, the soft ice being a big handicap to his speed, and he frequently runs the disc.

The Ottawa Journal 25 March 1907 said:
Tom Phillips, after the first few minutes of play, lagged behind and seemed to have lost heart after Wanderers made it three straight.

The crowd were greatly disappointed with the work of Tom Phillips, who was away off color. Blachford outplayed him in every way and Phillips seemed to be played out. Phillips is not used to heavy going, and it proved too much for him.

The Ottawa Citizen 25 March 1907 said:
Time and again did Smith carry hostilities into the camp of the opposing team in brilliant rushes with only Westwick at his side, while the much-tooted Tom Phillips and other members of the Thistles, apparently overcome by the stupendous calamity which might overtake them, in a losing game, practically stood still or labored like wooden men, almost invariably doing the wrong thing when a little bit of generalship would have save the situation and scored a goal.

Phillips of Kenora, of whom great things were expected, made an exceedingly poor showing. He was never dangerous and seemed to have gone stale. His attempts at getting and retaining possession of the puck were weak and he was outplayed by Cecil Blachford in generalship and in speed. Phillips was one of the greatest disappointments of the team. It must be that he is not a mudhorse and the heavy going put him out of the running. Such was the conclusion from his performance last night.

Stanley Cup Game 15: Phillips and the Thistles defeated the Wanderers 6-5 on 25 March, but lost the Cup on goal differential. However, Phillips’ play was again not up to his usual standard, though he did manage to score at least one goal, and may have gotten up to five (the play by play disagrees with the scoring summary in a couple sources- all the summaries have Phillips with one, a single source has him with two in the play by play, and another source’s play by play has him with 5). Hod Stuart’s game was praised, as was Smith’s and Westwick’s again.

The Ottawa Citizen 26 March 1907 said:
The Thistles played with all the brilliancy that the public expected of a team, so made up except in the one respect, that the work of Tom Phillips was again disappointing. Tom has been badly off color in all the last four games he has played in this city. Only on one occasion did he show the vim and dash that earned him his reputation. He refused a greater part of the time to go in on the nets, but shot often from quarter ice or farther out, and frequently was so anxious to get rid of the puck by passing it that it then went to the players on the other team. Smith and Westwick were the best pair on the ice, and without them Kenoras would have been swamped. Alf. probably never played a better game. His checking back was great and he kept up his wonderful work to the very end of the game, appearing fresh and strong while the others were gasping for wind.

Phillips and Smith are the greatest wings in the game and Westwick is as good as any rover on skates; but three men cannot hold such a team as Wanderers at bay, and Kenora will have to get a better defence before they can hope to win the coveted silverware back again.

The Ottawa Journal 26 March 1907 said:
Phillips appeared again not to be in condition, and had none of that brilliant dash about his play that characterized him when the Kenoras were the challengers.

The Montreal Star 26 March 1907 said:
Tom Phillips Seems to Have Lost His Nerve

If any man on the Wanderers forward line did better work than any other that man was Cecil Blachford. The little fellow was a wonder and he had it over Tom Phillips from the word go. The fact of the matter is that the work done by Phillips in the last two games with Brandon and the two with Wanderers had been such that people here are beginning to wonder what has happened. In none of the four has he shown anything like his old time form. He showed speed on only rare occasions last evening.

He [Phillips] appeared to be afraid to go into close quarters for his shots were all long ones and many times he showed such anxiety to pass the puck that when he did get rid of it it was for some Wanderer to take and rush down the ice.

The Gazette 26 March 1907 said:
Phillips was also a different man in tonight’s game, and when he and Alf Smith started down the ice together they upheld their reputations as the two fastest wing men in Canada.

Phillips has not been playing up to his old-time form.

Phillips has been responsible for the two goals scored by his team.

Phillips is shining star for Thistles in this half.

Tommy Phillips would then agree to play for Edmonton HC against the Montreal Wanderers in December 1908. Edmonton would lose the first game 7-3, and Phillips would suffer and injury. As far as I am aware, this would be the last Stanley Cup game that Phillips would play, unless new information is uncovered.

Stanley Cup Game 16: Phillips manned the left wing as Edmonton lost to the Wanderers 7-3 on 28 December 1908. Phillips is credited with a goal.

The Ottawa Citizen 29 December 1908 said:
In the last 15 minutes of the match Tom Phillips was hardly able to stand on his skates, limping around helplessly. Phillips lost several grand opportunities to score by unfortunate shooting.

But outside of the brilliant rushes of Phillips, Whitcroft and Vair in the first half, Patrick’s forlorn dashes in the second half and occasional three man attacks by Smith, Glass and Johnston, combine with the work of the goal keepers, there was nothing to rouse one’s enthusiasm.

Their combination was seldom in evidence and they shot with little success, Phillips and Vair throwing chance after chance away.

Much criticism was heard regarding Tom Phillips’ work, but one is safe in saying that a gamer exhibition has never been seen at the Arena than that given tonight by the Kenora man.

Phillips was battered and bruised, tripped and slammed into the boards dozen of times. Every limb was swollen or cut. Three times Phillips was forced to take the count, but on each occasion the former Ottawa player jumped to his feet, smilingly accepting the assistance which his team mates offered him. Phillips was game to the core, so Wanderers evidently decided to “get to him” and they did. What Gardner did outside of watching Phillips was difficult to see. Phillips was not by any means his former self at any stage, nevertheless. Only once did he show his real form and that was when he went through every man on the Wanderer team and scored the second goal. Tom was not in shape for such a battering. Patrick was by long odds the most useful man on the challenging team.

The Montreal Star 29 December 1908 said:
Tom Philliips the Hero of Last Night’s Struggle
Played for Ten Minutes with a Broken Ankle and Never Let Out a Whimper

As to the visitors, Phillips showed all of his old dash…

Phillips Heroic Play For Ten Painful Minutes
The heroic behavior of Phillips in playing for ten minutes with a broken ankle is one of the brightest features of last night’s match. He knew that the team did not want him to go off and so he stayed on, though he much have suffered excruciating pain.
When the foot was bound up after the match and he was asked how he felt, he said “Alright” and apparently expected to be able to play again, but he was taken to the Western Hospital, where the verdict of the surgeons was to the contrary.

Patrick and Phillips made rush after rush till Edmonton received a heavy blow by Phillips being knocked out against the western fence.

Phillips individually came near scoring two or three times, but he had no support…

Tom Phillips received a lot of attention in the early stages of the game, but when he faded in the last half they all said he was a “quitter”. They did not know, of course, that he had been seriously injured.

The Gazette 29 December 1908 said:
Phillips, after playing brilliantly in the first, started off the second half with an ankle that was giving him intense pain, and toward the finish of the hour he was playing on his courage only and unable to give the exhibition of brilliant forward play that has made him the most talked about player in Canada. Both Pitre and Phillips were weak spots on the challenging seven when it came to the final test.

In the first half Phillips was playing brilliant hockey. Conditions were reversed in the second period of play. Phillips, after his ankle had been injured, lost most of his dash and in addition to this tired badly through lack of condition.

That appears to be it. What do we make of this? Honestly, I don’t know, and I’m going to have to sit on it for a bit. He was a huge star, that much is very easy to see. But I don’t know if going through these games helped me reconcile his reputation with his stats- he was famous for scoring and skating (and generalship), but his scoring doesn’t reach the same heights as other players of the day.
 
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overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
Here are some articles on Moose Johnson from after his top level pro career was over. (He continued playing in various minor league until he was 50 or so.)

Apparently Lester Patrick rated him over Ching Johnson, which says something considering Patrick coached the younger Johnson. And his Montreal teammate Jack Marshall rated him very highly.

Calgary Herald, March 7, 1924

Outstanding Heroes in Canadian Hockey by A.N. "Tony" McKinley

(Florid opening paragraphs about moose omitted)

When only a lad of nine years we have record of him playing in a school league (ed. that would be in 1894), and at 20 he was starring with the Wanderers, one of those great organizations that have heralded the fame of Montreal as a hockey centre to the four corners of the hockey world.

He was then a left winger and so speedily did he wing his way from end to end that he used to be upbraided for throwing the whole line out of kilter. He held down this position on the team from 1905 to 1912, when he was kidnapped by Frank Patrick to help plant the seed of Canada's winter game on the international shores of the Pacific Ocean.

The absence of two fingers on his shooting hand very seriously handicapped him in this department of the game.

When the Wanderers and Ottawa played the never-to-be-forgotten home and home series which decided a league tie and possession of the Stanley cup, in March 1906, the scores being 9 to 1 for Wanderers at home, and 9 to 3 for Ottawas in the capital city, Johnson was very much in the limelight and almost had the "daylights" knocked out of him as well.

The Montreal Star of March 19, 1906 very graphically describes Johnson's part in the game and how after "Rat" Westwick's stick knocked several of his teeth out, the "Moose" cut loose and played a remarkably aggressive game. So like his forest friend we find that he always loved piece, but when provoked would either stand at bay or go on a rampage of destruction.

In 1912 he went to the coast where chinooks or rainstorms do not interfere with hockey schedules. He played cover for Westminster, with Lehman, Tobin, Oatman, Ran. MacDonald and Jimmy Gardner, who were the first league champs.

After three years there the team was transferred to Portland, where he played for the next four years. He then joined the Victoria club, where he remained until he retired from the game in 1921.

He had the longest reach of any man in hockey. He used a stick with several inches spliced onto it, making his reach exactly nine feet, which was the distance opponents had to keep away from him if they desired clear sailing.

His great forte on defense was his wonderful poke check which he executed with lightning rapidity. His defensive tactics enabled him to use every inch of his reach when not using every pound of his weight, which happened to be 195.

During his career he got much more of his share of punishment, accidentally or otherwise, but he always "kept smiling."

He lost teeth and had seventeen stitches put in his league. He had his eye knocked out of the socket at Victoria on one occasion, but he had it bandaged up and finished the game after which he spent several weeks in a dark room at the hospital. He had several ribs cracked and when his jaw was smashed while with Portland, he got a head gear made and still kept playing and smiling.

He was invariably selected on all-star teams and has been given some of the most flattering write-ups in east and west that any star could wish for.

Like the moose that loves his forest home, Ernie "Moose" Johnson loved hockey and always played it well. His memory will surely never fade and his record of service in east and west will always grace the pages of Canadian hockey history.



The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Feb 7 1932, Harold C. Burr

(Since we were talking about nicknames…)

His other nickname was "Fruit", given him when he was a boy. The most highly prized sandwich with Canadian boys was called a fruit sandwich, made with a fried egg and a slice of onion. It was fodder that made the young Johnson mouth water.

"Give me a fruit sandwich," the hungry boy would command importantly, swaggering up to the lunchroom counter.

But when Johnson grew up and entered hockey they decided that "Fruit" wasn't such a good name to catch the imagination of the rush seats. Because of his size he became "Moose" and as Moose Johnson he was known through all the years he played with the Montreal Wing Wheelers, the Wanderers, New Westminster, Portland, and Victoria.

His baptismal name is Ernest. They still laugh over the way he used to confuse his own name. Johnson like to go visiting along Victoria's main street, halting at various ports of call where good fellows met in back rooms to do their bragging. About the fifth drink time the talk would switch to hockey.

"Two greatest hockey players in the world," Moose would declaim owlishly. "One's Ernie Johnson. The other's Moose Johnson."

One afternoon Patrick was one of the party and Johnson became broadminded in his selection. "Three greatest players in the world," he declared, rising shakily to his feet, "are Ernie Johnson, Moose Johnson, and Lester Patrick."

But no sooner had Patrick departed than Johnson had still another amendment. "All nonsense," he cried, blinking at the closing door. "Only two players--Ernie Johnson and Moose Johnson."

...The red lights are dimming for Moose Johnson. Though still playing, he belongs ot a past that's dimming too. He's a type that isn't being turned out of the hockey mold anymore. Hockey has become too regrettably civilized.



Montreal Gazette, Feb 27, 1934

Turning Back Hockey's pages by D.A.L. MacDonald.

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

Johnson played left wing and cover point for Wanderers. Jack Marshall who played point behind him consideres Johnson one of the best defencemen of his era. His only equals were Hod Stuart and Harvey Pulford, says Marshall. Big, rangy, and with a tremendous reach, Moose Johnson was particularly gifted for a defence position. "By the time they got around Johnson," explains Marshall, "the rest was easy. They were over somewhere by the boards." The Moose also had a tantalizing habit of "losing" his stick at the feet of the oncoming forward. In 1915?, Frank Calder had a rule put into the N.H.L. boook that if any player threw his stick it was a goal for the opposition. The rule still stands in the book, and although stick-throwing in the major pro circuit has almost died out, Ernie Johnson has left his mark behind him in the National Hockey League.

The Montreal Star, Feb 8, 1938, Baz O'Meara.

When Lester Patrick grows loquacious which he does with startling frequency he likes to hark back to the olden days. You cannot budge his opinion that Moose Johnson was one of the best defencemen of any era, a fit running mate for Hod Stuart who in the Patrick book stands alone.

Talking of Ching Johnson recently he remarked: "I do not think he could play as well as one side of Moose Johnson."

This may have been a slight exxageration because when Lester waxes eloquent, simile, hyperbole, comparisons and adjectives are mere adjuncts to point a moral as well as adorn a tale.

(discussion of the poke check being a dying art, reference to Frank Nighbor, Jack Walker, and Pit Lepine).

...Which brings us back to Moose Johnson. Because many of the old timers including Alf Smith of the famous Silver Seven will tell you that Johnson had the first real full blown, sweeping poke check, when he operated from the defence.

Those who remember Johnson recall that he was skilful poking the puck away from incoming forwards.

Most hockey writers credit Walker with being the man who brought it almost to perfection, and Nighbor was considered its greatest exponent. Frank Boucher had a fine hook check, but Lepine like Nighbor could operate both right and left.



Montreal Gazette Dec 30, 1948, Dink Carroll

Lester was asked how good Goheen was.

"He could play on any club in the National Hockey League," answered Lester.

"You mean he could play on any N.H.L. club you played on," corrected Art Ross.

Lester chose to ignore the gibe and went on "Now you'll want to know how good Moose Johnson was. I'll say he was better than Ching Johnson and Ching was quite a hockey player."

But one of Lester's listeners hadn't heard enough about Moose Goheen. "Was he as good a player as you were?" he wanted to know.

Art Ross had the answer to that before Lester could open his mouth. "Oh, my God, I should hope so," said the Boston Bruins' boss.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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Thanks for that, @overpass , I feel like Johnson was one of the forgotten men of this round.

I’m addition to Patrick coaching Johnson, they actually played together too for a couple years on those Wanderer teams, if I’m not mistaken.
 

Dr John Carlson

Registered User
Dec 21, 2011
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Did Moose exclusively play defense in the PCHA? It sounded like there was a question of which position he'd play for Victoria in the 1921-22 season:

The Victoria Daily Times - 17 November 1921 said:
'Moose' Johnson will be on the team between the forward line and the goal, but whether he will play on the defence or go out to the rover position where he can spill 'em sooner and before they get in too close is a question which Manager Patrick must lose sleep over.

The article later states that Wilf Loughlin's place on the team as rover was in jeopardy, due to poor performance in the prior season, so they may have been desperate.
 
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rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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Cross posting this from the contemporary all star thread- a 1908 ECAHA all-star team from an Ottawa paper:

Tom Phillips, of Ottawa, is stationed at left wing without further ado. Blair Russell, of Victorias, is a grand player, but will always be on the bench while the Kenora man is in the game. Gardner, of Shamrocks, is a good man, and Ernie Johnson, of Wanderers, has played effective and showy hockey, but neither can be rated with Phillips, or even Russell. Phillips can skate and score, is an inveterate hand at checking back, and a clever puck-getter.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
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I just wanted to leave this comment here, as my (to some extent previously-expressed) thoughts about Clint Benedict, PLUS the already-closed matter of Sprague Cleghorn:
HHOF induction year

1945: Eddie Gerard, Tommy Phillips, Hod Stuart (Note that all players in the first class were deceased at the time)
1947: Lester Patrick (technically inducted as a player, but we all know there was something of a builder-player hybrid thing happening)
1950: Joe Malone
1952: Moose Johnson, Mickey MacKay
1958: Frank Fredrickson, Hugh Lehman
1959: Cy Denneny
1960: George Boucher
1965: Clint Benedict
1970: Babe Dye

Back on the nick-names kick

"Praying Benny" for Benedict somewhat derogatory of a nickname given his tendency for flopping to save goals. How much of Benedicts success as a goalie can we consider a result of his "unorthodox" and technically "illegal" style considering the era? (I realize this is largely rhetorical).

It's all well and good, but he was clearly willing to skirt/break the rules of the time to keep the puck out of the net. Does that matter for anyone?
Two points: 1) I've speculated that contemporary accounts of Vézina's superiority, as well as Benedict's delayed induction, may owe something to the fact that Vézina was perceived to have played in the "clean-and-pure" style, as opposed to the flopping cheatmeister impression that many attached to Benedict. 2) Benedict was also harmed by a mid-career battle-with-the-bottle that resulted in his understandable dismissal from Ottawa. Eventually, he pulled out of his tailspin, starred for the Maroons, and had an 'Act II' renaissance to his career.

Benedict spent many of his later years watching Goaltenders that he KNEW to be inferior to him receive HoF inductions. The man had some understandable residual bitterness- but lived long enough to witness his induction- which didn't take place until he was well into his 70s.

If we're going to make this sort of argument, it probably should have started when we looked at Newsy Lalonde and Sprague Cleghorn because the real "bending the rules bullshittery" of that era was being able to absolutely belt someone with your stick and not have your team end up down a man.

This will come up again when we talk about Joe Hall, and maybe some others, but I consider this a strike against players of that ilk. If part of the reason a player was good at his job was that NHL./NHA rules allowed him to violently assault other players without much hurting his team (the NHA/NHL had a "deferred penalty" system until the 1921-22 season in which penalized players sat out, but the team didn't go down a man), that diminishes the player's legacy somewhat in my eyes.

Ultimately, Lalonde and Cleghorn probably belong around where they went in anyway, but I think this is something we should consider going forward. Which players succeeded by goonery and which were the victims of it (Mickey MacKay) in a way that looks obviously f***ed up (for lack of a better descriptor) to modern eyes?
And that reveals a sensible distinction of degree here. There's "rules-bending" that involves obstruction, hooking, holding, leaving one's feet when the rules say players should remain upright- and then there's assault made legal in a Lew Wallace "no-law-inside-the-arena" kind of way. When I made my HoH top-100 preliminary list, I had S. Cleghorn inside my top-40... higher than anyone else had him. If judging by what he meant to winning hockey games and ignoring all other concerns, I still think that's about where he should be. However, a modern-day Sprague Cleghorn allowed advanced training techniques but denied advanced psychiatric help would bid fair to be expelled from the league for life. [If he learned how to micro-dose PEDs, I could envision scenarios where he would be even worse on this front.]

After being (I believe suitably) horrified by the extent of the Sprague Cleghorn story, I nerfed him back to position #55- to date my biggest "re-think" on an already retired player. At the time, I referred to it as the "filthy-factor." It's a subjective element in my assessment as to how "top" a player is.

To conclude with a bromide, others' mileage may vary when assessing this issue.
 

rmartin65

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Alright everyone- ballots for round 2, vote 2 are open through Sunday. Please use the same PM that you used for round 2, vote 1 when submitting your ballots.
 
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Dr John Carlson

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Dec 21, 2011
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For me, the one that's been talked down is Hod Stuart. Without much of anything tangible to back up his outstanding reputation among those who saw him play, it's really hard to contextualize him against the rest of the group. I have no idea where to put Hod, which means I'll probably end up slotting him near the bottom.
 
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Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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For me, the one that's been talked down is Hod Stuart. Without much of anything tangible to back up his outstanding reputation among those who saw him play, it's really hard to contextualize him against the rest of the group. I have no idea where to put Hod, which means I'll probably end up slotting him near the bottom.

As far as I know, nobody even knows how Hod held his stick.

Certainly a remaining frontier for future spelunkers, and not a player whose eventual placement on the list is going to mean much.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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For me, the one that's been talked down is Hod Stuart. Without much of anything tangible to back up his outstanding reputation among those who saw him play, it's really hard to contextualize him against the rest of the group. I have no idea where to put Hod, which means I'll probably end up slotting him near the bottom.
You can kind of make the same argument against Phillips too, though, right? His aura/star power/whatever you want to call it exceeds what the stats we have portray, which makes ranking him difficult.

At the end of the day, I am placing a lot of value in the mentions of him being named one of/the best in the world, as that is coming from people who saw him play (or at least heard from people who saw him play). I will say that the WOWY comparisons were not flattering to Stuart, which does knock him down a bit or two for me.
 

jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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I don't want to overly punish Stuart because his stats don't pop. The contemporary opinion has him as pretty close to the consensus best defenseman pre 1915.

While he won't make it this round, I still be still ends up ahead of Boucher for third best defenseman next round.
 

Black Gold Extractor

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May 4, 2010
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You can kind of make the same argument against Phillips too, though, right? His aura/star power/whatever you want to call it exceeds what the stats we have portray, which makes ranking him difficult.

At the end of the day, I am placing a lot of value in the mentions of him being named one of/the best in the world, as that is coming from people who saw him play (or at least heard from people who saw him play). I will say that the WOWY comparisons were not flattering to Stuart, which does knock him down a bit or two for me.

To be fair to Stuart, Phillips' regular season "sorta WOWY" isn't any better. His ranking is going to be based largely on his Cup challenge heroics.

Phillips' first season in the CAHL, joining Montreal HC after leaving McGill:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Montreal 1902-03 (w/ Phillips)​
8​
34​
19​
4.25​
2.38​
64.2%​
Montreal 1901-02 (w/o Phillips)​
8​
39​
15​
4.88​
1.88​
72.2%​
Rel.​
-0.63​
+0.50​
-8.1%​

Obviously, that's effectively his rookie season, so that doesn't really count.

Phillips leaving Montreal HC for the Toronto Malboros in the OHA, plus Billy Nicholson leaving for the Wanderers devastates Montreal the following season:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Montreal 1902-03 (w/ Phillips and Billy Nicholson)​
8​
34​
19​
4.25​
2.38​
64.2%​
Montreal 1903-04 (w/o Phillips and Billy Nicholson)​
8​
34​
49​
4.25​
6.13​
41.0%​
Rel.​
0.00​
-3.75​
+23.2%​

Now, what about when Phillips in his prime rejoins the ECAHA when he signs with Ottawa:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Ottawa 1907-08 (w/ Phillips)​
10​
86​
51​
8.60​
5.10​
62.8%​
Ottawa 1906-07 (w/o Phillips)​
10​
76​
54​
7.60​
5.40​
58.5%​
Rel.​
+1.00​
-0.30​
+4.3%​

It makes sense. Phillips was the 3rd leading goal scorer in 1907-08 and a known defensive presence. Ottawa goes from overwhelmingly strong in 1906-07 to even more overwhelmingly strong in 1907-08.

Now what happened when Phillips left Ottawa for Edmonton the following season:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Ottawa 1907-08 (w/ Phillips)​
10​
86​
51​
8.60​
5.10​
62.8%​
Ottawa 1908-09 (w/o Phillips... but Marty Walsh scores 42 goals)​
12​
117​
63​
9.75​
5.25​
65.0%​
Rel.​
-1.15​
-0.15​
-2.2%​

Ottawa still becomes even stronger somehow. Phillips' defensive impact is missed, but Marty Walsh putting up 42 goals in 12 games more than makes up for Phillips' missing offensive impact.

So, who's a good comparison? Frank McGee leaving Ottawa between the 1905-06 and 1906-07 seasons:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Ottawa 1905-06 (w/ McGee for 7 of 10 games)​
10​
90​
42​
9.00​
4.20​
68.2%​
Ottawa 1906-07 (w/o McGee)​
10​
76​
54​
7.60​
5.40​
58.5%​
Rel.​
+1.40​
-1.20​
+9.7%​

Also worth noting that the goaltender for Ottawa in 1905-06 (McGee's final year) was Billy Hague, while the goaltender for 1906-07 onward was Percy LeSueur.

As far as I can tell, McGee had more of a "best player in the world" level of impact than Phillips in the regular season. Given that McGee also showed up in Cup challenge games, it's also entirely possible that McGee was a bigger impact player there too.

I can understand ranking Phillips ahead of McGee due to longevity (after all, McGee played a total of 3.5 regular seasons, 1 of which was in the FAHL)... but I can't really see how there can be a huge gap between the two players, especially when I'm not confident that Phillips was better than McGee despite all the glowing praise.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,675
2,155
To be fair to Stuart, Phillips' regular season "sorta WOWY" isn't any better. His ranking is going to be based largely on his Cup challenge heroics.

Phillips' first season in the CAHL, joining Montreal HC after leaving McGill:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Montreal 1902-03 (w/ Phillips)​
8​
34​
19​
4.25​
2.38​
64.2%​
Montreal 1901-02 (w/o Phillips)​
8​
39​
15​
4.88​
1.88​
72.2%​
Rel.​
-0.63​
+0.50​
-8.1%​

Obviously, that's effectively his rookie season, so that doesn't really count.

Phillips leaving Montreal HC for the Toronto Malboros in the OHA, plus Billy Nicholson leaving for the Wanderers devastates Montreal the following season:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Montreal 1902-03 (w/ Phillips and Billy Nicholson)​
8​
34​
19​
4.25​
2.38​
64.2%​
Montreal 1903-04 (w/o Phillips and Billy Nicholson)​
8​
34​
49​
4.25​
6.13​
41.0%​
Rel.​
0.00​
-3.75​
+23.2%​

Now, what about when Phillips in his prime rejoins the ECAHA when he signs with Ottawa:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Ottawa 1907-08 (w/ Phillips)​
10​
86​
51​
8.60​
5.10​
62.8%​
Ottawa 1906-07 (w/o Phillips)​
10​
76​
54​
7.60​
5.40​
58.5%​
Rel.​
+1.00​
-0.30​
+4.3%​

It makes sense. Phillips was the 3rd leading goal scorer in 1907-08 and a known defensive presence. Ottawa goes from overwhelmingly strong in 1906-07 to even more overwhelmingly strong in 1907-08.

Now what happened when Phillips left Ottawa for Edmonton the following season:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Ottawa 1907-08 (w/ Phillips)​
10​
86​
51​
8.60​
5.10​
62.8%​
Ottawa 1908-09 (w/o Phillips... but Marty Walsh scores 42 goals)​
12​
117​
63​
9.75​
5.25​
65.0%​
Rel.​
-1.15​
-0.15​
-2.2%​

Ottawa still becomes even stronger somehow. Phillips' defensive impact is missed, but Marty Walsh putting up 42 goals in 12 games more than makes up for Phillips' missing offensive impact.

So, who's a good comparison? Frank McGee leaving Ottawa between the 1905-06 and 1906-07 seasons:

Team​
GP​
GF​
GA​
GF/GP​
GA/GP​
GF%​
Ottawa 1905-06 (w/ McGee for 7 of 10 games)​
10​
90​
42​
9.00​
4.20​
68.2%​
Ottawa 1906-07 (w/o McGee)​
10​
76​
54​
7.60​
5.40​
58.5%​
Rel.​
+1.40​
-1.20​
+9.7%​

Also worth noting that the goaltender for Ottawa in 1905-06 (McGee's final year) was Billy Hague, while the goaltender for 1906-07 onward was Percy LeSueur.

As far as I can tell, McGee had more of a "best player in the world" level of impact than Phillips in the regular season. Given that McGee also showed up in Cup challenge games, it's also entirely possible that McGee was a bigger impact player there too.

I can understand ranking Phillips ahead of McGee due to longevity (after all, McGee played a total of 3.5 regular seasons, 1 of which was in the FAHL)... but I can't really see how there can be a huge gap between the two players, especially when I'm not confident that Phillips was better than McGee despite all the glowing praise.
This is great, thank you! The more we talk about them, the more questions I have about Phillips and Stuart. And since you brought up McGee- the record will reflect that my preliminary list had McGee ranked ahead of Phillips.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Unrelated (but including here, as I imagine the posts will just get merged if I make a new one)- I came across another nice quote about Johnson at forward;

The Montreal Star 4 March 1907 page 3 said:
The Wanderer forwards were steady and useful throughout; Russell sometimes rose to brilliancy, but on the whole their forte was steadiness rather than showiness. The pick of the line was Johnson, this despite the array of goals credited to Russell. Johnson worked with vim and life. He checked bravely and covered both wings on the follow back play. It was certainly the best game Johnson has yet played. The tall Wingman dashed back after Ottawa forwards, proving himself speedy on the heavy ice, and showing ability to catch the other fellows after a break away. Johnson showed ability to check as Ottawa forwards checked. He blocked in a useful way and his strength in this direction gave opportunities to his fellows.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,675
2,155
Today is voting day for Round 2, Vote 2! Please us the same PM thread that you used in submitting your ballots from last week.
 
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