Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 10

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I think we will find room for Paton before it's all done. He's a name onto his own amongst early goalies and is by far our earliest birth year.

I'm reading through Klondikers right now. Firstly, Weldy Young is talked about as the unmatched great of his era, though that the book is kind of about him underlines that. Paton gets mentioned a few times as a very respected elder statesman.

I struggle on how to separate the Montreal players. They all come and go but the team still finds success. And we know so little about them. But that Paton stuck around for as long as he did in the era he did is remarkable. And speaks to his quality as the talent pool exploded.

Our current oldest player is Weldy Young. Paton is 16 years older than him. Young is closer to Cyclone Taylor in age than Paton.

It's weird he's not in the HHOF, since everywhere his name comes up has respect attached to it.
 
Carson Cooper

Aizm4l0.png

Due to a lack of coverage of his amateur career, I looked a little bit deeper into Carson Cooper's professional career in the NHL. I have to say that I'm just not really seeing it with him. Unlike when he played in the OHA, there's no shortage of game reports for his NHL days and there isn't any sense that Cooper was seen as a star. And I don't think it's a situation like Dick Irvin where his best days were clearly behind him by the time he came to the NHL - there were plenty of clippings in Chicago and in his old stomping grounds where the papers acknowledged Irvin's age and the fact that he was past it, while Cooper doesn't see any of the same acknowledgement. Therefore, I'm led to believe that Cooper was about the same player in the NHL as he was in Hamilton.

I found a few articles that focused on him and his shot, which was about all he was known for. Both of these were near the end of his NHL career:

The Windsor Star - 28 January 1931 said:
Hockey writers in many cities, and particularly on the American side, persist in describing Carson Cooper of the Detroit Falcons as 'Shovel Shot.' Personally we never could vision one of Cooper's quick deliveries from right wing as being associated in the 'shovel shot' idea and 'Coop' himself laughs every time he reads that 'label.'

Cooper's puck shooting is accompanied by a highly emphasized wrist movement, just as a baseball players obtain a snap to their throw by the use of their wrists. Cooper has an unusually fast delivery. He gets the puck away at a lightning-fast pace, but his stick seldom travels as a 'follow through.' Because of this quick get-away of Cooper's, the puck is seldom blocked by a defenseman. It usually travels all the way to the nets.

Cooper has unusually powerful wrists for his size. He no doubt developed these wrists playing lacrosse, where wrists play an important part in the handling of a gutted stick. But Cooper didn't dig any ditches down around Cornwall and he didn't develop any such puck drive to warrant the label of 'shovel shot' that we can see. Neither can 'Coop.'

The Detroit Free Press - 4 December 1931 said:
Somebody once put 'Shovel Shot' in front of his name a few years ago. But that is a misnomer. There is nothing resembling the process of shovelling in the manner in which Cooper does his shooting. He is the only hockey player in the National League who gets immense power behind his shots without, 'winding up,' which accounts to a great extent his sniping success. Cooper can take a pass and get it away in one motion and there is not a harder or more accurate shot in any league....

There is not a more talkative hockey player than Cooper who never was checked or stymied in the art of repartee. He is the club's 'jockey' and an untiring one... Cooper is a journeyman electrician and works at his trade in Hamilton during the off-season.

It almost sounds like his 'Shovel Shot' nickname was not really complimentary, to be honest. I actually felt compelled to look into exactly what 'shovel shot' meant during this time, because it's a term that I've seen a few times. It's most frequently used when describing a player lifting the puck high into the air at the goal from far out, usually from just outside the blueline, using a shoveling motion. One article said specifically of Cooper that he was "called the shovel-shot artist because he scoops up the puck when he aims," which goes against what the two snippets above said. Appearing much less frequently were accounts of players using a 'shovel shot' in tight to roof the puck over the goaler. I saw reports of Cooper scoring 'shovel' goals via both of these methods. As an aside, I found a few clippings that described Harry Smith, of the famed Smith brothers, as being considered the original 'shovel shot' king, and also another clipping that referred to Babe Dye as 'Old Shovel Shot'.

I also found a few articles that talked about Detroit's cost structure during the time Cooper played for them. One in particular, from January 1931, was written through rose-tinted glasses, comparing the cost of the Falcons' players with what the editor believed they'd be able to command 'on the market.' At the end of the article it included this handy table:

eZWM14y.png

I find this pretty damning for Cooper, since this was in the middle of the 1931 season when he came 2nd on the team in scoring behind Goodfellow, so he was still an important piece of the team, and in the previous season he'd led the team in scoring and finished 15th in the league overall. Yet the homer sports editor of the Detroit Free Press thought he was one of the least valuable men on the team! Was it the fact that he was one of the older players on a team comprised mostly of youngsters? That would make sense, but he was still considered to be worth a little less than George Hay, two years older, and was considered to be worth much less than 35 year old Reg Noble, who was just voted in last round.

I'm also interested in the disparity between Cooper's cost and Jimmy 'Sailor' Herbert's cost, who was through as an NHLer by now and was playing with the Olympics minor league squad (managed by Bernie Morris). They were teammates briefly in Hamilton, and both came to the NHL in 1924 with the Bruins as rookies - Cooper at wing, Herbert at centre. In Cooper's first big NHL year, 1926, he finished 2nd in scoring, while Herbert finished 4th. Sailor received plenty of Hart attention and came 7th in voting (after coming 7th the year before) while Cooper didn't receive any Hart votes. Here, years later, we find out that Herbert cost Detroit nearly 4x to acquire him as what Cooper did. It seems to me like this all points to Cooper not being considered a particularly valuable player, but if anybody is more familiar with the finances of NHL teams from this period and could offer another explanation, it would be most helpful.

As for Cooper's defensive game, there isn't much mention of it good or bad, which for most players usually means they don't impact the game on that end. I did find this from the 1930 offseason:

The Detroit Free Press - 27 April 1930 said:
There will be others missing when the Cougars' roll call is made in October. There are rumours that Carson Cooper will not be back. 'Shovel-Shot,' who takes excellent care of himself, was not exactly an outstanding star under the forward passing rule which requires a lot of back-checking.

As we know, forward passing was introduced the season prior, which is the aforementioned season when he led his team in points and finished 15th leaguewide.

In all, I'm definitely less in on Cooper than I was before. I was looking for reasons to like him, since I've already advocated strongly for a player who gets underrated because of his split amateur/pro career, but I think I'm gonna have to pass on 'Shovel Shot' (or 'Coop').
 
Harry Hyland
I only have one season of Hyland’s (with the Montreal Shamrocks of the ECHA in 1909), so this will be short. He played another 9 seasons across the NHA, PCHA, and NHL before retiring in 1918, and was admitted to the HHoF in 1962.

Selection of Quotes:
“Hyland was developed into a clever scorer, and was useful until he tired, in the second half”

“Hyland was the choice of the forwards”

“Laviolette, Marshall and Hyland were the best for the visitors”

“Hyland, an intermediate who played with Shamrocks, is a fast skater but proved of small use to his side, as he spent much time with the penalty time-keeper”

“Hyland has a fine shot. He only scored one last night, but he got a dozen others in that Smaill or Hern had trouble handling”

“Hyland has a dangerous shot, but Ross and Hern robbed him of all but one tally”

“Hyland played the best hockey he has shown this season, his shooting being a feature”

Scoring Table (not counting the points that are disputed)
1909 (ECHA)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]League Rank[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Team Rank[/TD]
[TD]Goals[/TD]
[TD]Assists[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Herb Jordan[/TD]
[TD]Quebec HC[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Bruce Stuart[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Dubbie Kerr[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Chubby Power[/TD]
[TD]Quebec HC[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Shamrocks[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Jimmy Gardner[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-8[/TD]
[TD]Walter Smaill[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-8[/TD]
[TD]Cyclone Taylor[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-10[/TD]
[TD]Pud Glass[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-10[/TD]
[TD]Steve Vair[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Johnson[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-13[/TD]
[TD]Billy Gilmour[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-13[/TD]
[TD]Jack Marshall[/TD]
[TD]Shamrocks[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Scoring Table (counting disputed points; split points worth .5 (or .33) points, maybe points given full credit but not added to goals or assists)
1909 (ECHA)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]League Rank[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Team Rank[/TD]
[TD]Goals[/TD]
[TD]Assists[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]Marty Walsh[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]41.33[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]49.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Herb Jordan[/TD]
[TD]Quebec HC[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]31.5[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]36.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Bruce Stuart[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]20.83[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]33.83[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]Dubbie Kerr[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]19.83[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]26.83[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Chubby Power[/TD]
[TD]Quebec HC[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]3.5[/TD]
[TD]24.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Shamrocks[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]19.5[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]20.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]Jimmy Gardner[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]11.5[/TD]
[TD]8.5[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]Cyclone Taylor[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]10.5[/TD]
[TD]19.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]Pud Glass[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]1.33[/TD]
[TD]18.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-10[/TD]
[TD]Steve Vair[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]T-3[/TD]
[TD]12.5[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]17.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T-10[/TD]
[TD]Walter Smaill[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]T-3[/TD]
[TD]9.5[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]17.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Billy Gilmour[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa HC[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]9.5[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]15.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]Ernie Johnson[/TD]
[TD]Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]5.33[/TD]
[TD]15.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]Jack Marshall[/TD]
[TD]Shamrocks[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]5.5[/TD]
[TD]14.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Hyland has a pretty good stretch of seasons when he returns from the PCHA before his decline in 1916. I'll dig a bit deeper into my scans but I'm not finding much by way of mentions besides occasionally being called a star of the game

SeasonTeamTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1
1908-1909Montreal Shamrocks12Harry HylandRW11191203631%53%
1909-1910Montreal Wanderers12Harry HylandRight Wing10200202322%63%
1910-1911Montreal Wanderers16Harry HylandC15147214321%50%
1911-1912New Westminster Royals15Harry HylandR15260264433%96%
1912-1913Montreal Wanderers20Harry HylandRight Wing20264303827%63%
1913-1914Montreal Wanderers20Harry HylandRight Wing183012421826%93%
1914-1915Montreal Wanderers20Harry HylandRight Wing19236294917%85%
1915-1916Montreal Wanderers24Harry HylandRight Wing20140146912%36%
1916-1917Montreal Wanderers20Harry HylandRight Wing13122142112%29%
1917-1918Montreal Wanderers6Harry HylandRight Wing4617633%15%
1917-1918Ottawa Senators22Harry HylandRight Wing13819596%19%
 
From my bio about Eddie Oatman a big dump of quotes preceded with the table I make. Never a prolific scorer, but someone who carved out an incredibly long career.

SeasonTeamTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1
1910-1911Quebec Hockey Club16Eddie OatmanW16851361.0
15%​
31%​
1911-1912Quebec Hockey Club18Eddie OatmanRight Wing181942340.0
24%​
58%​
1912-1913New Westminster Royals13Eddie OatmanR13951446.0
21%​
48%​
1913-1914New Westminster Royals16Eddie OatmanRight Wing162252718.0
25%​
69%​
1914-1915Portland Rosebuds18Eddie OatmanRight Wing182283023.0
24%​
67%​
1915-1916Portland Rosebuds18Eddie OatmanRight Wing1811102124.0
20%​
60%​
1916-1917Toronto 228th Battalion14Eddie OatmanRight Wing121752220.0
26%​
46%​
1917-1918Portland Rosebuds18Eddie OatmanRight Wing1811102116.0
22%​
49%​
1918-1919Seattle Metropolitans20Eddie OatmanLW181151613.0
12%​
44%​
1919-1920Victoria Aristocrats22Eddie OatmanRight Wing2211142538.0
27%​
76%​
1920-1921Victoria Aristocrats24Eddie OatmanRight Wing226111711.0
14%​
53%​
1921-1922Victoria Aristocrats24Eddie OatmanRight Wing21961528.0
15%​
50%​
1922-1923Victoria Cougars30Eddie OatmanRight Wing291271949.0
13%​
35%​
1923-1924Calgary Tigers30Eddie OatmanRight Wing2331422.0
3%​
10%​
1924-1925Calgary Tigers28Eddie OatmanRight Wing26651120.0
7%​
33%​
1925-1926Calgary Tigers30Eddie OatmanRight Wing1600016.0
0%​
0%​

I called Oatman the ultimate glue guy earlier and I that remains an accurate descriptor. Lots of mentions referring to his hard work and leadership abilities

Quotes from the Calgary Herald unless otherwise noted

January 15, 1918

One feature that marred the game was a slight fracas in which Lloyd cook and Eddie Oatman engage with the result that both got major penalties that took them off the ice for the rest of the third period. Oatman came in on the local defense fast, and when he and Cook met, Cook lost a tooth....Referee George Irvin bravely stopping hefty swats as he stood between two angry athletes bent on making permanent dents in each other

October 18, 1923
Tigers Getting 60-minute player in Eddie Oatman

Both the Calgary lads have fine reps, but Eddie Oatman stands out as one of the pillars of ice hockey on the coast. He has been playing here for ten years and not one fan will point an admonishing finger at him and say he hasn't given of his best everytime he went out on the ice to play

As a hockey player Eddie Oatman is splendidly equipped for speed, good skating, back-checking, stick handling and goal-getting, but anyone will tell you that his outstanding qualification is his fighting spirit. The order to quit never went up from Eddie until the final gong sounded no matter how many goals down the Cougars were.

January 24, 1924
Keats who followed in to the box pushed Oatman aside by placing a husky mitt on the local skipper's face and this displeased Eddie, making him somewhat wrathful so he went at Keats. They didn't get very far in the battle before someone banged Keats on the head with the blade of a stick and blood trickled down his collar

March 6, 1924
Hay and Irvin were very slippery, but against the close checking of Oatman and Wilson coupled with Morris and Crawford they were well controlled.....

Oatman stepped into the limelight in the third period; in fact he was an outstanding worker in the second and pulled a series of stick-handling and back checking feats that puzzled the Caps.


March 7, 1924
Eddie Oatman the fighting leader of the Bengals has been suffering from a cold which is bothering his throat interfering with his breathing somewhat....Oatman gave wonderful service against Regina, his back checking and fighting spirit when hard pressed being a great incentive to his Tiger mates

February 22, 1919
Oatman was working like two men when the third period started and after seven minutes he evened up the game with a fine shot,

A series of quotes from @seventieslord

How did Oatman play?
For the past few drafts we really haven't had much evidence in regards to Oatman's play and that was a big question mark on him as a pick. Thanks to some old newspaper research by overpass and myself of actual in-game descriptions, we finally have many clues. Oatman was a well-balanced offensive player who was probably a better playmaker than goalscorer. He was chippy and gritty, a very hard worker, responsible defensively, and he could skate and shoot.

Toronto Star, January 17, 1911
Oatman did a lot of fighting, and was finally chopped down by McNamara, the Renfrew captain. Both were chased to the ice box for the balance of the match, about ten minutes of playing time remaining.

Here's Oatman taking on a guy 3 inches taller and 35 pounds heavier:
Montreal Gazette, February 27, 1911
A fist fight marked the closing minutes of the game... Ross and Oatman were the principals... There had been considerable rough play preceding the trouble, and Oatman, who is no drawing-room player himself, was a mark for some hammering. Smaill bored in on Quebec, but was checked by Oatman, who got the puck, but Smaill didn't let him pass, and gave him the knee. Following this, Oatman was thrown agains the rail by Ross. This so enraged the Quebec player that he struck the Wanderer point with his stick. Ross tried to retaliate but was prevented. Both players were then disqualified... With Oatman in the lead, the unruly pair skated to the penalty box, and as Oatman started to mount the rail, Ross, angered at the crack he received, pulled off his glove and struck Oatman a hard blow over the eye with his bared fist... Oatman was eager to continue the fray, but peacemakers kept the two belligerents separated.

Daily Telegraph, January 23, 1912
Eddie Oatman the Worker - Eddie Oatman is without a doubt the hardest worker in the league, and is effective. When Ottawas came down here a few weeks ago, he had **** played to a standstill and he did the same thing with Sprague Cleghorn last week, and last night he kept Payan guessing.

Toronto Star, December 11, 1912
Fred Taylor, the sensation of the N. H. A. for many years, stood out head and shoulders above every other player on the ice. Other players who showed exceptional class were: Eddie Oatman, late of Quebec, *****, of Winnipeg, and Si Griffis, the former Kenora player.
Look at the review of the 1913 NHA/PCHA All-Star Game. Seems Oatman was the only noteworthy western player on a team that featured Taylor and The Patricks:

Globe and Mail, March 27, 1913
Nighbor and Ross played a brilliant game for the Easterners, while Oatman was the only Westerner who played a good game.

Toronto Star, February 8, 1913
In the last period Griffis and Oatman came together and both were sent off for ten minutes for fighting.

Ottawa Citizen, December 13, 1913
Westminster's showing has been the surprise to date... The defense of Oatman and Johnson is one of the best ever seen at the coast.

Toronto Star, December 17, 1915
As a sequel to the fistic battle which was staged between Cully Wilson, who had the reputation of being the “bad man” of hockey in the East last season, and Eddie Oatman in Seattle Tuesday night, a warning went out from the office of President Frank Patrick yesterday that a repetition of such a scene would bring down a suspension, with the possibility of a more drastic penalty... Wilson, of the Seattle club, and Oatman, of Portland, collided shortly after the opening of the final period, both being sent off for fifteen minutes each and fined. Several stitches were necessary to repare Wilson’s anatomy and Oatman’s head.

NY Times, March 26, 1916
Lalonde of the Montreal team and Johnson and Oatman of Portland were threatened with arrest for striking eachother with sticks and fists.

NY Times, April 5, 1916
Moose Johnson, with Oatman as his chief assistant, made many daring and spectacular raids on the Canadien cage.
Half a minute later Oatman stole up while the whole Canadien team was gathered up in a convention around the cage and jabbed the puck through with the point of his stick.
 
A crude attempt at Iain Fyfe's point allocation for Harris, Roberts, Broadbent, Cleghorn, Oatman and Hyland of the top 20 (of the 78 seasons in total I have for these players). these values are scaled the same Fyfe describes but I've never been 100% sure that I've gotten all the intricacies and fudges sorted out. But it's a good discussion point for these contemporaries

This is strictly offensive point allocation. Gordon Roberts has 3 of the 4 best seasons by this metric. Smokey Harris looks surprisingly poor despite leading a league in scoring.

Hyland also looks pretty good by this analysis.

I was pretty shocked to see how highly it ranks some Cleghorn seasons

SeasonTeamTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %OPVs1
1914-1915Montreal Wanderers20Gord RobertsLeft Wing19295
34​
74​
20%​
15.4​
100%​
1916-1917Vancouver Millionaires23Gord RobertsLeft Wing234310
53​
42​
25%​
14.7​
98%​
1911-1912Montreal Wanderers18Odie CleghornRight Wing17274
31​
30​
28%​
14.7​
78%​
1913-1914Montreal Wanderers20Gord RobertsLeft Wing203113
44​
15​
27%​
14.1​
98%​
1913-1914Montreal Wanderers20Harry HylandRight Wing183012
42​
18​
26%​
13.5​
93%​
1909-1910Montreal Wanderers12Harry HylandRight Wing10200
20​
23​
22%​
13.2​
63%​
1914-1915Montreal Wanderers20Harry HylandRight Wing19236
29​
49​
17%​
13.1​
85%​
1921-1922Ottawa Senators24Harry BroadbentRight Wing243214
46​
28​
26%​
13.1​
100%​
1911-1912New Westminster Royals15Harry HylandR15260
26​
44​
33%​
12.5​
96%​
1912-1913Montreal Wanderers20Harry HylandRight Wing20264
30​
38​
27%​
11.9​
63%​
1914-1915Montreal Wanderers20Odie CleghornRight Wing15215
26​
39​
16%​
11.8​
76%​
1918-1919Montreal Canadiens18Odie CleghornRight Wing18216
27​
33​
22%​
11.6​
82%​
1916-1917Montreal Wanderers20Odie CleghornRight Wing18284
32​
49​
27%​
11.5​
67%​
1918-1919Vancouver Millionaires20Fred HarrisLW20206
26​
0​
22%​
11.4​
72%​
1914-1915Ottawa Senators20Harry BroadbentRight Wing20243
27​
115​
28%​
11.4​
79%​
1920-1921Vancouver Millionaires24Fred HarrisLeft Wing241517
32​
6​
22%​
10.5​
100%​
1910-1911Renfrew Creamery Kings16Odie CleghornRW16203
23​
66​
19%​
10.4​
55%​
1919-1920Victoria Aristocrats22Eddie OatmanRight Wing221114
25​
38​
27%​
10.0​
76%​
1919-1920Vancouver Millionaires22Fred HarrisLeft Wing221410
24​
19​
21%​
10.0​
73%​
1911-1912Quebec Hockey Club18Eddie OatmanRight Wing18194
23​
40​
24%​
9.8​
58%​
 
Just general thoughts on the table above

Roberts seems to have the best peak offense of the group
Hyland has remarkably the most top 10 seasons of the group
Cleghorn shows up pretty positively with 5 of the top 20
Fred Harris is largely a disappointment compared to the previous 3 even though he lead the PCHA in scoring in 1920
Oatman just isn't in this class offensively
Broadbent is just Oatman but with some more offensive pop
 
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A crude attempt at Iain Fyfe's point allocation for Harris, Roberts, Broadbent, Cleghorn, Oatman and Hyland of the top 20 (of the 78 seasons in total I have for these players). these values are scaled the same Fyfe describes but I've never been 100% sure that I've gotten all the intricacies and fudges sorted out. But it's a good discussion point for these contemporaries

This is strictly offensive point allocation. Gordon Roberts has 3 of the 4 best seasons by this metric. Smokey Harris looks surprisingly poor despite leading a league in scoring.

Hyland also looks pretty good by this analysis.

I was pretty shocked to see how highly it ranks some Cleghorn seasons

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]OP[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]

[TD]
34​
[/TD]

[TD]
74​
[/TD]

[TD]
20%​
[/TD]

[TD]
15.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
100%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]

[TD]
53​
[/TD]

[TD]
42​
[/TD]

[TD]
25%​
[/TD]

[TD]
14.7​
[/TD]

[TD]
98%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
31​
[/TD]

[TD]
30​
[/TD]

[TD]
28%​
[/TD]

[TD]
14.7​
[/TD]

[TD]
78%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]

[TD]
44​
[/TD]

[TD]
15​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
14.1​
[/TD]

[TD]
98%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]

[TD]
42​
[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
26%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
93%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]
20​
[/TD]

[TD]
23​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.2​
[/TD]

[TD]
63%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]
29​
[/TD]

[TD]
49​
[/TD]

[TD]
17%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.1​
[/TD]

[TD]
85%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1921-1922[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Harry Broadbent[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]

[TD]
46​
[/TD]

[TD]
28​
[/TD]

[TD]
26%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.1​
[/TD]

[TD]
100%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]New Westminster Royals[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]
26​
[/TD]

[TD]
44​
[/TD]

[TD]
33%​
[/TD]

[TD]
12.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
96%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912-1913[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
30​
[/TD]

[TD]
38​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.9​
[/TD]

[TD]
63%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]

[TD]
26​
[/TD]

[TD]
39​
[/TD]

[TD]
16%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.8​
[/TD]

[TD]
76%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918-1919[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Canadiens[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]
27​
[/TD]

[TD]
33​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.6​
[/TD]

[TD]
82%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
32​
[/TD]

[TD]
49​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
67%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918-1919[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Fred Harris[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]
26​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
72%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Broadbent[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]
27​
[/TD]

[TD]
115​
[/TD]

[TD]
28%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
79%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920-1921[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Fred Harris[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]

[TD]
32​
[/TD]

[TD]
6​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
100%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911[/TD]
[TD]Renfrew Creamery Kings[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]
23​
[/TD]

[TD]
66​
[/TD]

[TD]
19%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
55%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920[/TD]
[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]Eddie Oatman[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]

[TD]
25​
[/TD]

[TD]
38​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.0​
[/TD]

[TD]
76%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]Fred Harris[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]

[TD]
24​
[/TD]

[TD]
19​
[/TD]

[TD]
21%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.0​
[/TD]

[TD]
73%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Quebec Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Eddie Oatman[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
23​
[/TD]

[TD]
40​
[/TD]

[TD]
24%​
[/TD]

[TD]
9.8​
[/TD]

[TD]
58%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Cutting off at 20 was for brevity. If I added a couple mores rows (say to 25) we get another couple of Robert's seasons.
 
In all, I'm definitely less in on Cooper than I was before. I was looking for reasons to like him, since I've already advocated strongly for a player who gets underrated because of his split amateur/pro career, but I think I'm gonna have to pass on 'Shovel Shot' (or 'Coop').
Thanks for this post; I found it very useful in getting better familiarized with Cooper.

I think I'm sitting out on Cooper for at least this round as well, but among that offense only group of guys (such as Ernie Russell, Hyland, Trihey, and Routh, for example), his numbers look pretty good, right? Among the guys I just named he's behind only Ernie Russell in @seventieslord 's VsX over 3 years, (and only by 2 points), leads the bunch at 5 years (and is tied with Marty Walsh for first among all players eligible this round), and dominates the group at the 7 year mark (to be fair to the group, player's in Cooper's era had a greater incentive to play longer than guys like Routh, Russell, and Trihey).
 
Just general thoughts on the table above

Roberts seems to have the best peak offense of the group
Hyland has remarkably the most top 10 seasons of the group
Cleghorn shows up pretty positively with 5 of the top 20
Fred Harris is largely a disappointment compared to the previous 3 even though he lead the PCHA in scoring in 1920
Oatman just isn't in this class offensively
Broadbent is just Oatman but with some more offensive pop
Roberts is getting a high ranking for me this round. Your posts and @seventieslord 's VsX table shows him as having one of the better offensive peaks available, and then, unlike a lot of the other top offensive guys this round, Roberts made an impact without the puck.

Do you have a selection of quotes on Cleghorn (I should probably check the ATD bio thread too)?

So, if I am reading you right you are thinking Broadbent>Oatman>Harris? Where does Darragh fit in, if we are looking at similar-type players from the same rough time period?

And since you are my go-to for info on PCHA guys- it looks like all the defenders (if we don't consider Marshall purely a defender) were from the PCHA. I'm reading them Griffis>Cook>Duncan; am I way off base there?
 
Do you have a selection of quotes on Cleghorn (I should probably check the ATD bio thread too)?

I don't have one handy, assuming this round goes on a bit longer I can do some research on Saturday during the hockey games.

The problem I'm sure you've run into when you have a bunch of PDF scans it's hard to search for text within them
 
Voting for this round is now open. Please get your ballots in by Sunday (tomorrow) at 9:00 PM EST.
 
I don't have one handy, assuming this round goes on a bit longer I can do some research on Saturday during the hockey games.

The problem I'm sure you've run into when you have a bunch of PDF scans it's hard to search for text within them

So I'm really not finding much substantive on Cleghorn in terms of greatness at least in The Globe and Mail

There's one mention for an all-star team, but he's an after thought after the guy names like 6+ other people at each position and is lumped in confusingly with Malone and Lalonde.

@seventieslord's old bio from ATD #11 has no contemporary quotes and most mentions I'm finding are about him playing well is games but nothing lasting.
 
Roberts is getting a high ranking for me this round. Your posts and @seventieslord 's VsX table shows him as having one of the better offensive peaks available, and then, unlike a lot of the other top offensive guys this round, Roberts made an impact without the puck.

Do you have a selection of quotes on Cleghorn (I should probably check the ATD bio thread too)?

So, if I am reading you right you are thinking Broadbent>Oatman>Harris? Where does Darragh fit in, if we are looking at similar-type players from the same rough time period?

And since you are my go-to for info on PCHA guys- it looks like all the defenders (if we don't consider Marshall purely a defender) were from the PCHA. I'm reading them Griffis>Cook>Duncan; am I way off base there?

Darragh I have a hard time with, I'd say probably Oatman/Harris but with a strong playoff legacy? That's kind of Darragh's thing right? He was good in the playoffs, but I think I might like him less than Harris even. Harris played with some talent in the PCHA but pretty much every major team mate of Darragh's (sorry Punch) are already on our list.

SeasonTeamTeams GPNamePositionGPGAPPIMOC %Vs1
1910-1911Ottawa Senators16Jack DarraghR16186243616%57%
1911-1912Ottawa Senators18Jack DarraghRight Wing17161171914%43%
1912-1913Ottawa Senators20Jack DarraghRight Wing20183211720%44%
1913-1914Ottawa Senators20Jack DarraghRight Wing20235286928%62%
1914-1915Ottawa Senators20Jack DarraghRight Wing18112133214%38%
1915-1916Ottawa Senators24Jack DarraghRight Wing21165214120%54%
1916-1917Ottawa Senators20Jack DarraghRight Wing20265312522%65%
1917-1918Ottawa Senators22Jack DarraghRight Wing18145192612%40%
1918-1919Ottawa Senators18Jack DarraghRight Wing14113143312%42%
1919-1920Ottawa Senators24Jack DarraghRight Wing232214362220%73%
1920-1921Ottawa Senators24Jack DarraghRight Wing241115262018%60%
1922-1923Ottawa Senators24Jack DarraghRight Wing2469151012%41%
1923-1924Ottawa Senators24Jack DarraghRight Wing1820222%8%
 
And since you are my go-to for info on PCHA guys- it looks like all the defenders (if we don't consider Marshall purely a defender) were from the PCHA. I'm reading them Griffis>Cook>Duncan; am I way off base there?

That's kinda where I'm at with those 3

Duncan has that one excellent season but the rest of the time the results never line up
Cook was consistently strong but never super flashy and never was considered the best defender
Griffis came to Vancouver with great fanfare as a former member of the Thistles and seems that Vancouver fans believe he lived up to the hype
 
A crude attempt at Iain Fyfe's point allocation for Harris, Roberts, Broadbent, Cleghorn, Oatman and Hyland of the top 20 (of the 78 seasons in total I have for these players). these values are scaled the same Fyfe describes but I've never been 100% sure that I've gotten all the intricacies and fudges sorted out. But it's a good discussion point for these contemporaries

This is strictly offensive point allocation. Gordon Roberts has 3 of the 4 best seasons by this metric. Smokey Harris looks surprisingly poor despite leading a league in scoring.

Hyland also looks pretty good by this analysis.

I was pretty shocked to see how highly it ranks some Cleghorn seasons

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Teams GP[/TD]
[TD]Name[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]P[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[TD]OC %[/TD]
[TD]OP[/TD]
[TD]Vs1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]

[TD]
34​
[/TD]

[TD]
74​
[/TD]

[TD]
20%​
[/TD]

[TD]
15.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
100%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]

[TD]
53​
[/TD]

[TD]
42​
[/TD]

[TD]
25%​
[/TD]

[TD]
14.7​
[/TD]

[TD]
98%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
31​
[/TD]

[TD]
30​
[/TD]

[TD]
28%​
[/TD]

[TD]
14.7​
[/TD]

[TD]
78%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Gord Roberts[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]

[TD]
44​
[/TD]

[TD]
15​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
14.1​
[/TD]

[TD]
98%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]

[TD]
42​
[/TD]

[TD]
18​
[/TD]

[TD]
26%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
93%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]
20​
[/TD]

[TD]
23​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.2​
[/TD]

[TD]
63%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]
29​
[/TD]

[TD]
49​
[/TD]

[TD]
17%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.1​
[/TD]

[TD]
85%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1921-1922[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Harry Broadbent[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]

[TD]
46​
[/TD]

[TD]
28​
[/TD]

[TD]
26%​
[/TD]

[TD]
13.1​
[/TD]

[TD]
100%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]New Westminster Royals[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]R[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]
26​
[/TD]

[TD]
44​
[/TD]

[TD]
33%​
[/TD]

[TD]
12.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
96%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1912-1913[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Hyland[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
30​
[/TD]

[TD]
38​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.9​
[/TD]

[TD]
63%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]

[TD]
26​
[/TD]

[TD]
39​
[/TD]

[TD]
16%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.8​
[/TD]

[TD]
76%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918-1919[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Canadiens[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]
27​
[/TD]

[TD]
33​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.6​
[/TD]

[TD]
82%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Montreal Wanderers[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
32​
[/TD]

[TD]
49​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
67%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1918-1919[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Fred Harris[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]

[TD]
26​
[/TD]

[TD]
0​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
72%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Senators[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]Harry Broadbent[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]
27​
[/TD]

[TD]
115​
[/TD]

[TD]
28%​
[/TD]

[TD]
11.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
79%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920-1921[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]Fred Harris[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]

[TD]
32​
[/TD]

[TD]
6​
[/TD]

[TD]
22%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.5​
[/TD]

[TD]
100%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1910-1911[/TD]
[TD]Renfrew Creamery Kings[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]Odie Cleghorn[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]
23​
[/TD]

[TD]
66​
[/TD]

[TD]
19%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.4​
[/TD]

[TD]
55%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920[/TD]
[TD]Victoria Aristocrats[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]Eddie Oatman[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]

[TD]
25​
[/TD]

[TD]
38​
[/TD]

[TD]
27%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.0​
[/TD]

[TD]
76%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1919-1920[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]Fred Harris[/TD]
[TD]Left Wing[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]

[TD]
24​
[/TD]

[TD]
19​
[/TD]

[TD]
21%​
[/TD]

[TD]
10.0​
[/TD]

[TD]
73%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1911-1912[/TD]
[TD]Quebec Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]Eddie Oatman[/TD]
[TD]Right Wing[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]
23​
[/TD]

[TD]
40​
[/TD]

[TD]
24%​
[/TD]

[TD]
9.8​
[/TD]

[TD]
58%​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I added Darragh to this because yeah that was an omission.

His best two slot ahead of Hyland's streak of 3 and right after and then nothing for a long time.

Looking this new table and this offensive points allocated season by season. Just with my eyeballs I'd rank them

Peak
Roberts > Hyland > Cleghorn > Darragh >=Broadbent > Harris >=Oatman

Longevity
Cleghorn >= Hyland > Roberts > Darragh = Oatman = Harris > Broadbent
 
Bumping this... anybody got anything on Cooper? I tried doing a brief search on him on newspapers.com but the site is very light on Ontario papers. His amateur years with the Hamilton Tigers are a huge part of his excellent VsX, so quotes from that period would be very useful.

From the small amount of info I've found, he seems to suffer from Babe Dye syndrome, in that most of his praise focuses on how good of a shot he is rather than how good of a player he is. One article from the 1923 OHA playoffs says that Cooper is about equal to, or slightly better than, Harry Watson, for Carson was able to score from long distances rather than needing to work in tight like Watson did. However, another article from next year's playoffs stated that an injury to Johnny Brackenborough, who was Cooper's regular centreman on the Tigers, would put Cooper at a loss as Brackenborough "made it possible for Cooper to whang in the tallies" that year.

I certainly don't have enough on him to make anything more than a surface level judgment of him, which is why I had him around this range on my list to begin with.

I just saw this, having more luck in the Globe than I did for Odie.

02 Feb 1920

Cooper Stars
Hamilton fans were in a frenzy of delight right off the bat in the first period when Cooper landed the opening counter for them. This little chap was easily the best man on the ice, accounted for of the five counters credited to the Tigers. He was all over the ice, backchecking like a fiend and up with every rush and made several sallies(?) that resulted in goals.

08 Feb 1922

Carson Cooper the leading scorer of the OHA senior series added one more tally to his total when he netted his team's lone counter. He was fed regularly by his teammates but contented himself for the most part, with shooting from the outside of the opposing defense.


30 Jan 1923

Carson Cooper was held scoreless but he outplayed Harry Watson and that is a feat in itself.

21 Feb 1923

Cooper Scores Six
Carson Cooper was at his best against the students. His stickhandling was a treat and at no time during the entire game did he show any signs of selfishness. His fourth counter of the night was the result of a pretty piece of work. He secured the rubber in front of his own net and skated through the UofT forwards around the defense and in on top of Langley. Instead of shooting, he circled the net and pushed the rubber into the corner before Langley could change sides. Two of his six counters were long shots, but the other four came from close in.

14 Feb 1923

Cooper at His Best
Carson Cooper the Tigers dangerous right wing was the best man on the ice. His stickhandling was clever and though he got only one goal he made many dangerous plays and his checking was good.

26 Jan 1924
Save Gracy and and Sandy Somerville made the going hard for Carson Cooper, the pudge right wing player who has a habit of leading the OHA snipers. Cooper was not in as good condition as his opponents but he conserved his energy by playing a defensive game

01 Mar 1924

Cooper Effective
It as stated that Carson Cooper would not be as effective if heavily bodychecked, but he took some hard bumps and never showed to better advantage on local ice. Cooper missed the brainy co-operation usually supplied by Brackenborough but he never stopped trying and sacrificed good chances to score himself by passing the puck to a teammate.

13 Jan 1930

In the opinion of an argent Fergus hockey fan, so-called "bad men" in professional ranks get too much publicity, while clean players like Frank Nighbor, Frank Boucher, Carson Cooper and George Hay are not given the recognition they deserve..have shown that players can be highly effective without the necessity of resorting to rough-house tactics

There is another passage talking about who is going to takeover the mantle of top goalscorer from Babe Dye. Cooper gets a mention but the title is bestowed onto Morenz and Conacher
 
Last edited:
The biggest boost of Odie Cleghorn is Fyffe's point system. The contemporary reports aren't great. Is he our first post-1905 prime player not in the HHOF?

Fyffe's point system is based heavily on deployment, which is tied into longevity. Since Cleghorn's offense is middling, the logic is that he had defensive value to play for such a long time. To be fair to Fyffe, I fell for that trap too while making my original list.

The closest comparable in terms of impact is probably Mike Gartner?

Also, completely off-topic, but isn't "Blair Russell" actually Blair Russel with only one "L" at the end of his surname?
 
Longevity
Cleghorn >= Hyland > Roberts > Darragh = Oatman = Harris > Broadbent

You'd have Hyland and Roberts over Oatman for longevity? Neither of the former two stand out to me for length of prime, though Roberts's prime certainly would've continued on had he not rightly prioritized his medical career.

The biggest boost of Odie Cleghorn is Fyffe's point system. The contemporary reports aren't great. Is he our first post-1905 prime player not in the HHOF?

Bernie Morris.
 
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Also, completely off-topic, but isn't "Blair Russell" actually Blair Russel with only one "L" at the end of his surname?
I have no idea; this has been low-key bothering me for months. I have a hard time believing that the HHoF has it wrong, but most of the contemporary news reports write about him as "Russell". On the other hand, his obituary has just the one "L".
 
This is a reminder that voting for this round is open; please get your ballots in before 9:00 PM EST tonight.

I'll start sending reminder PMs at around 5:00 PM.
 
Here are some of the interesting excerpts from the Turning Back Hockey's Pages articles that ran in The Gazette for a couple years:

Ernie Russell, 11 January 1934 Page 13
“One of the shining stars of the old Wanderers, a name to conjure with almost three decades ago, was Ernie Russell, rover and centre of the famous ‘Red Bands’

“Russell retired in 1909 to devote all his time to business, but was finally coaxed out of retirement to return for one season. It is significant that over a period of five seasons, the only year in which the Wanderers failed to annex the trophy, Russell was not with them”

Note: whew, I don’t know what to do about this one. Russell did indeed retire in 1909, but the reason given here is rather speculative- I believe I saw his name involved in other endeavors that year (I believe he sailed across the Atlantic at one point?), so just claiming it was for business is iffy to me. Also- Russell returned for more than just the 1910 season. He played 4 seasons for the Wanderers after his 1909 hiatus, including the 1911-12 NHA season, where he finished tied for 2nd in goals (well behind Skene Ronan).

“Ernie Russell was one of the forerunners of the Nels Stewart style for no more accurate shot from close ever was seen in hockey. He had an uncanny ability to loaf offside, particularly in his later days, and along with Bowie was the most feared sniper in the major league. Ernie was a high-hand [sic] shot”

Doc Roberts, 25 January 1934 Page 16
“Big, rangy and fast as well as being an expert stick-handler Gordie Roberts was a terror to goal-tenders for over a decade in the National Hockey Association in the east and in the Pacific Coast League in the west. He had a terrific shot and Clint Benedict used to insist, even at the expense of being frequently laughed at, that Roberts’ shots had a curve”

The Jack Marshall piece (13 February 1934 Page 14) is mostly fluff/team accomplishments.

Odie Cleghorn, 20 February 1934 Page 13
“It will always be a matter of argument as to who was the greatest stick-handler that hockey has ever seen. The old-timers who can go back thirty years in their hockey memories might give the palm to Archie Hooper, captain of the Little Men of Iron, or to Russell Bowie, centre star of the Victorias, or to Harry Trihey, rover of the Shamrocks, all of whom were at their peak at the start of the present century, or to Art Ross, who rose to fame later with Wanderers, but J. Ogilvie Cleghorn, at present a referee in the National Hockey League, rates with the best. His playing career extended over a period of eighteen years, but when he was with Canadiens from 1918 until 1924, no more gifted stick-handler ever graced the ice”

“Relatively slow and pudgy, Odie could thread his way through the opposition with amazing ease, nursing the puck almost between his skates as he moved up the ice. He was a proponent of the short stick and along with his amazing stick-handling ability he had a shift that was deception itself. In the days when a hockey crowd delighted in exhibitions of stick-handling, Odie was the master showman. He could start behind his own cage and smoothly work his way through an entire team with a deftness that was dazzling, fake the goaltender out of position and score in an empty net”

Jack Darragh, 1 March 1934 Page 12
“The fact that he had previously developed a fine backhand shot had much to do with his success but in addition Darragh was an extremely polished performer and one of the best left wingers of his time”

Riley Hern, 8 March 1934 Page 14
“The little town of Stratford, Ont. has given two great stars to major professional hockey, for although the fame of Howie Morenz has somewhat dimmed that of another Stratford-born player, the name of Riley Hern was a great one in the sport, long before the Morenz comet blazed across the hockey sky”

“Riley Hern deserves a place among the immortals of the game. In his peak years with the Wanderers, he was one of the best goaltenders of his time. Paddy Moran, of Quebec, was probably the only netminder to challenge his claim of being the greatest of his day”

Harry Trihey, 13 March 1934 Page 13
“Harry Tirhey captained the cup-winning team and played rover. He was undoubtedly one of the greatest stickhandlers of all time, and he possessed in addition a deadly shot. Though not a fast skater, he was an amazingly clever one and his stickhandling ability enabled him to work close in to the goal. Once in position for his famous flip shot, he was poison to any goaltender”

Rat Westwick, 24 March 1934 Page 14
“... Harry (Rat) Westwick was a star in his own right. He played rover on the three-time Stanley Cup holders and, though the goal-getting feats of some of his more illustrious teammates have dimmed the scoring fame of Westwick, he left behind a record no less notable in Canada’s two great national games”

“Westwick was tagged with his unique nickname because of his style of play. It was to be sure a not very complimentary tag to hand on any player but the nickname ‘the rat’ so aptly described Westwick’s method of scurrying over sticks and other hurdles encountered in his goalward dashes that the name stuck to him through his career. He was nimbleness itself on skates and as elusive as the rodent after which he was named. His tricky puck-handling and crafty, weaving style would make him an outstanding and much desired played [sic] in present-day hockey as he is rated the nonpareil among the all-time ‘raggers’”

Harry Hyland, 10 April 1934 Page 18
“Hyland was one of hockey’s greatest scorers in his heyday and at the same time was the best goal-getter in lacrosse for almost a decade. He played centre for Shamrocks in hockey but when he went to Wanderers he moved over to right wing. In lacrosse, he was a home fielder. He packed a terrific shot in both games”

Blair Russell, 14 April 1934 Page 14
“Blair Russell, chosen at left wing on the all-star aggregation, was second only to Bowie as a star of Victorias. He was probably the most useful member of the club for he was a tireless skater, a great back checker and a fine scorer in his own right. In commenting on his right to be placed on the all-star squad, the News’ story states that Russell was worth his weight in gold to Victorias”

Tom Paton, 8 January 1935 Page 12
“In the field of sport, Tom Paton’s achievements were no less noteworthy. He excelled at both hockey and lacrosse and, although the ice game has changed much since his day, old timers rate him as one of the finest goaltenders that ever lived”
 

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