Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4

[MXD]

Ok, so you do consider being the 5th best goalie in the league in a given season to be equivalent to being the 5th best defenseman? Of course you have a right to do so, but I can't disagree more.

Twice as many defensemen as goalies in the starting lineup.

Plus all the 2nd pairing guys who could have career seasons.

When Parent played, 5th wasn't as virtually meaningless as it would have been in 6 team league, but it was still a really unbalanced league in the 1970s, where the goalies of the really crap teams basically don't count as competition.

I get your reasoning and I'm mostly agreeing with it, though Bernard Parent doesn't seem like a very good situation where to apply it.

The performances behind the AS voting results and the AS voting results are also two very different things. I'm sure you'll agree with me that in '69 and '70, Bernard Parent almost certainly outplayed and deserved more praise than Ed Giacomin, despite finishing below him in AS voting.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I get your reasoning and I'm mostly agreeing with it, though Bernard Parent doesn't seem like a very good situation where to apply it.

The performances behind the AS voting results and the AS voting results are also two very different things. I'm sure you'll agree with me that in '69 and '70, Bernard Parent almost certainly outplayed and deserved more praise than Ed Giacomin, despite finishing below him in AS voting.

Yes, I was speaking in a general sense. There are always special exceptions

 

[quoipourquoi]

And 5th goalie vs 5th D is kind of irrelevant. In any season the 5th goalie might be better than the top D, or vice versa.

Exactly. There’s not a hard-and-fast rule. 1994 and 2002 are examples of when the 3rd best goaltender (which is to say a top-5 player in Hart voting) may have been better than the best defenseman. On the flip side, there have been some years like 2000 and 2017 where you might find the opposite.

If I had to paint in broad strokes, 1970s goaltending was probably better than late-1940s defense, so a 4th/5th among goaltenders could certainly be better in some years. But ultimately, you’d have to look at the specific years to assess value in any thorough manner.

 

[overpass]

Do you still have anymore of these tables around???

I can put them together for players who played since 1953.

Gilbert Perreault.
You can see the seasons he played with his famous French Connection line of Martin-Perreault-Robert, from 1972-73 to 1977-78. Then he's back with Martin for part of the season again in 1979-80.

There was actually a strong relationship between Perreault's individual accomplishments and playing with Martin and Robert. His only significant individual regular seasons without them came in 1976-77 (when he did play with them some of the time, but also spent as much time with Terry Martin and Danny Gare), and 1979-80, when Rick Martin was his #1 linemate but not a full time linemate and he also played with Craig Ramsay and Danny Gare.

But did he benefit from playing with Rick Martin and Robert? Or was it just the benefit of having regular linemates? Look at his point collaboration totals (PC-1 and PC-2) with his linemates. Normally a player would have a PC total of 60-70% of their total even strength points with a regular linemate. Take away the French Connection linemates, and Perreault usually tops out at around 30% of even strength PC with his most common linemates. That means he never had a full-season linemate in his career other than Martin and Robert. And while Mike Foligno was his most common linemate in the 80s, he never had a winger play a full season with him after 1977-78.

Gilbert Perreault	ESP	Linemate 1	PC-1	Linemate 2	PC-2
1970-71	45	Eddie Shack	13	Gerry Meehan	9
1971-72	38	Rick Martin	20	Mike Byers/Kevin O'Shea	7
1972-73	62	Rene Robert	35	Rick Martin	34	Byng, 5th in Hart voting
1973-74	36	Rick Martin	23	Rene Robert	17
1974-75	58	Rene Robert	38	Rick Martin	26	9th in points, AS-3
1975-76	70	Rene Robert	35	Rick Martin	24	3rd in points, AS-2
1976-77	63	Rene Robert	16	Terry Martin	16	5th in points, AS-2
1977-78	65	Rene Robert	38	Rick Martin	16	8th in points
1978-79	64	Danny Gare	24	Tony McKegney/Derek Smith	13
1979-80	70	Rick Martin	28	Ric Seiling	23	4th in points, AS-3
1980-81	41	Ric Seiling	11	Rick Martin	9
1981-82	63	Mike Foligno	20	Dale McCourt/Alan Haworth	11
1982-83	51	Dale McCourt	14	Ric Seiling	12
1983-84	55	Real Cloutier	14	Mike Foligno	14
1984-85	50	Mike Foligno	19	Lindy Ruff	9
1985-86	47	Mike Foligno	22	Paul Cyr/Gilles Hamel	5
1986-87	14	Wilf Paiement	7	Paul Cyr	4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Peter Stastny
So it's well-known that Peter got to play with his brothers Anton and Marian. But we have to also note that he doesn't appear to have been full-time full-season linemates with them, except for possibly Anton in 1980-81. Other than 1980-81, neither Anton nor Marian ever collaborated on 50% of Peter's even strength points in a season. So either Peter was playing more minutes with them with other wingers, there was some line shuffling going on during the season, or a combination of the two.

Peter Stastny	ESP	Linemate 1	PC-1	Linemate 2	PC-2
1980-81	73	Anton Stastny	44	Jamie Hislop	21	6th in points
1981-82	87	Marian Stastny	36	Anton Stastny	33	3rd in points, AS-3
1982-83	89	Anton Stastny	41	Marian Stastny	36	2nd in points, AS-3
1983-84	86	Anton Stastny	30	Marian Stastny	27	4th in points, AS-4
1984-85	69	Anton Stastny	28	Marian Stastny	14
1985-86	68	Anton Stastny	28	Brent Ashton	17	6th in points, AS-3
1986-87	44	Anton Stastny	15	Michel Goulet	9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here are the overall even strength point collaboration counts for 1980-81 through 1986-87. You can see he still got to play with other wingers such as Michel Goulet and Alain Cote, even if they were never together for a full season.

Player	PC-EV	%
Anton Stastny	219	42.4%
Marian Stastny	113	21.9%
Michel Goulet	73	14.1%
Alain Cote	60	11.6%
Brent Ashton	28	5.4%
Real Cloutier	22	4.3%
Jamie Hislop	21	4.1%
Jacques Richard	17	3.3%
Bo Berglund	16	3.1%
Miroslav Frycer	15	2.9%
Wilf Paiement	12	2.3%
Dale Hunter	10	1.9%
Marc Tardif	10	1.9%
Total	516	100.0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ron Francis

The file I'm working with is missing some seasons from 1987-88 and 1992-93.

So Ron Francis had a few semi-regular to regular linemates in his career. Blaine Stoughton in his first 3 seasons. Then Kevin Dineen for at least 1985-86 and 1986-87. Skipping forward to Pittsburgh, he played with Jaromir Jagr from 1993-94 ( and possibly earlier) to 1997-98. All of his significant individual recognition for regular seasons came in those seasons playing with Jagr, except for the 2001-02 season in Carolina. This has already been discussed. Finally, he played with first Sami Kapanen and then Jeff O'Neill in Carolina.

Ron Francis	ESP	Linemate 1	PC-1	Linemate 2	PC-2
1981-82	43	Blaine Stoughton	26	Garry Howatt	16
1982-83	61	Blaine Stoughton	33	Mark Johnson	16
1983-84	45	Blaine Stoughton	18	Tony Currie	8
1984-85	50	Dave Lumley	16	Ray Neufeld, Pat Boutette	11
1985-86	44	Kevin Dineen	23	Sylvain Turgeon	19
1986-87	62	Kevin Dineen	37	John Anderson	21
1990-91	57	Pat Verbeek	26	Rob Brown	19
1993-94	48	Joe Mullen	25	Jaromir Jagr	24
1994-95	34	Jaromir Jagr	24	Luc Robitaille	11	5th in points, AS-3, Selke, Byng
1995-96	60	Jaromir Jagr	44	Petr Nedved	19	4th in points, AS-5, Selke-2
1996-97	51	Mario Lemieux	29	Jaromir Jagr	25	8th in points
1997-98	49	Jaromir Jagr	38	Stu Barnes	16	5th in points, AS-3, Byng
1998-99	34	Sami Kapanen	18	Gary Roberts	13
1999-00	44	Sami Kapanen	19	Bates Battaglia	14
2000-01	31	Jeff O'Neill	16	Sami Kapanen	14
2001-02	34	Jeff O'Neill	18	Sami Kapanen	14	9th in points, AS-3, Byng
2002-03	33	Jeff O'Neill	23	Ryan Bayda	8
2003-04	20	Jeff O'Neill	6	Josef Vasicek	5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Pavel Datsyuk

I only have the data handy through 2009-10. There are many other sources if you want to look up since 2010.

Datsyuk broke in with Brett Hull on his wing for his first 3 seasons before the lockout. His other linemate varied.

After the lockout, during Datsyuk's best individual seasons, he spent time with Henrik Zetterberg, Tomas Holmstrom, Brendan Shanahan, and Marian Hossa. However, he doesn't appear to have been a full-time full-season linemate with any of them, as he spent time with a variety of forwards.

Pavel Datsyuk	ESP	Linemate 1	PC-1	Linemate 2	PC-2
2001-02	24	Brett Hull	13	Boyd Devereaux	13
2002-03	37	Brett Hull	25	Henrik Zetterberg	16
2003-04	44	Brett Hull	26	Steve Thomas	8
2005-06	48	Brendan Shanahan	22	Henrik Zetterberg	15	Byng, AS-4
2006-07	55	Henrik Zetterberg	20	Tomas Holmstrom	19	Byng
2007-08	56	Henrik Zetterberg	27	Tomas Holmstrom	18	4th in points, Byng, Selke, AS-3
2008-09	57	Marian Hossa	18	Tomas Holmstrom	17	4th in points, Byng, Selke, AS-2
2009-10	45	Tomas Holmstrom	13	Henrik Zetterberg	12	Selke

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here are his overall EV point collaboration counts for 2005-06 through 2009-10.

Player	PC-EV	%
Henrik Zetterberg	80	30.7%
Tomas Holmstrom	78	29.9%
Johan Franzen	25	9.6%
Brendan Shanahan	22	8.4%
Daniel Cleary	19	7.3%
Marian Hossa	18	6.9%
Valtteri Filppula	15	5.7%
Todd Bertuzzi	14	5.4%
Kris Draper	14	5.4%
Jason Williams	10	3.8%
Total	261

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Pavel Bure

This has already been touched on but Bure had really poor linemates for a star player.

Pavel Bure	ESP	Linemate 1	PC-1	Linemate 2	PC-2
1993-94	58	Murray Craven	18	Gino Odjick	13	1st in goals, 5th in points, AS-1
1994-95	23	Josef Beranek	6	Cliff Ronning, Gino Odjick	4
1995-96	7	Alex Mogilny	3	Alex Mogilny	2
1996-97	35	Trevor Linden	14	Martin Gelinas	10
1997-98	56	Mark Messier	20	Alex Mogilny	5	3rd in goals, 3rd in points, AS-3
1998-99	9	Rob Niedermayer	3	Ray Whitney	2
1999-00	70	Viktor Kozlov	26	Ray Whitney	19	1st in goals, 2nd in points, AS-2, Hart-3
2000-01	59	Marcus Nilson	13	Viktor Kozlov	12	1st in goals, 7th in points, AS-2
2001-02	44	Eric Lindros	12	Martin Rucinsky	6
2002-03	17	Petr Nedved	7	Eric Lindros	4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I noticed that Bure seemed to have relatively low EV point collaboration numbers, so I ran his EV point collaboration numbers by position from 1993-94 to 2002-03 and compared them to other star wingers in that time period. The results are below. What this means is the average even strength goal that Pavel Bure got a point on had 1.10 forwards getting a point and 0.53 defencemen, on average. When compared to other top scoring wingers over this time period, Bure was combining for goals with defencemen more frequently -- about 10-20% more than the others per goal. And he was combining for goals with other forwards much less frequently than the others. This may have been because he played with weak linemates, and maybe also because of his style of play.

Player	ESP	PC with forwards	PC with defence	Forwards/point	Defence/point	Total/point
Pavel Bure	378	415	202	1.10	0.53	1.63
Jaromir Jagr	658	859	303	1.31	0.46	1.77
Mark Recchi	441	607	185	1.38	0.42	1.80
Keith Tkachuk	443	577	197	1.30	0.44	1.74
Theo Fleury	436	529	187	1.21	0.43	1.64
Brett Hull	419	519	179	1.24	0.43	1.67
Peter Bondra	382	470	170	1.23	0.45	1.68
Teemu Selanne	470	583	191	1.24	0.41	1.65
Paul Kariya	375	468	166	1.25	0.44	1.69

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[tarheelhockey]

Are his 1969, 1970, and 1978 (years when he was 3rd in save percentage with a starter’s schedule) so irrelevant that even with his 1974 and 1975, he wouldn’t be among this group in terms of best-five seasons? That seems to be the impression I get from people.

I wish we had time to really break down each player's best-5 and compare them head to head in detail. This group is somewhat characterized by extremes of longevity vs extremes of peak, so it would be helpful to know precisely how big the peak-gaps look, and then adjust from there for durability and consistency.

I'm going to take a very superficial shot at this, recognizing that I don't have time to do it with total accuracy, so this will be somewhat made to have holes poked in it. Also, the forwards took up all the time I have so if someone else wants to take a crack at D and G for cross-positional comparisons... please do!


X = Simply "not top 10"

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD][/TD]
[TD]Bentley[/TD][TD]Bure[/TD][TD]Datsyuk[/TD][TD]Delvecchio[/TD][TD]Francis[/TD][TD]Jackson[/TD][TD]Perreault[/TD][TD]Stastny[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Best[/TD][TD]1949

AS - 2nd at C behind Abel, ahead of Ronty

Hart - 4th, tied with 2 others (Lindsay/Ronty)

6th goals
1st assists
2nd points

No Max

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]1994

AS - 1st at RW over Neely, Hull

Hart - Fringe

1st goals
X assists
5th points

Playoffs - Excellent; led all players in goals, led his team in all offensive categories, fell 1 goal short of a Cup[/TD]
[TD]2009

AS - 2nd at C behind Malkin and ahead of Crosby

Hart - 3rd behind Ovechkin/Malkin

Selke - 1st, narrowly over Mike Richards

X goals
5th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Disappointing, largely due to playing through injury[/TD]
[TD]1953

AS - 2nd at C behind MacKell

X goals
2nd assists
4th points

Playoffs - Solid showing in a first-round upset[/TD]
[TD]1995

AS - 2nd at C, behind Lindros/Zhamnov and ahead of Sakic

Selke - 1st narrowly over Tikkanen

X goals
1st assists
5th points

Playoffs - Strong in 2 series

Half-season with split award voting[/TD]
[TD]1932

AS - 1st over Joliat/Kilrea

Hart - None

3rd goals
3rd assists
1st points

Playoffs - Very good in a Cup win

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1976

AS - 2nd at C behind Clarke, narrowly ahead of Mahovlich

Hart - Fringe

9th goals
3rd assists
3rd points

Playoffs - Slightly disappointing in a 2-round run

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1982

AS - 3rd at C, way behind Gretzky/Trottier and ahead of Maruk/Savard

Hart - Fringe

X goals
2nd assists
3rd points

Playoffs - Good in 3 rounds

Highest scoring period in modern NHL [/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2nd Best[/TD][TD]1943

AS - 2nd at LW ahead of Patrick

Hart - 2nd behind Cowley

1st goals
5th assists
1st points

Playoffs - None

Scored more raw points than Max, though Max had higher PPG


Wartime season[/TD]
[TD]2000

AS - 2nd at LW behind Jagr and ahead of Nolan

Hart - 3rd, close behind Pronger and Jagr

1st goals
X assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Decent individual showing in a sweep

Notorious for lack of defense during this period

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]2008

AS - 3rd at C, narrowly behind Thornton and ahead of Lecavalier/Crosby

Hart - Fringe

Selke - 1st over Madden/Zetterberg

X goals
2nd assists
4th points

Strong playoffs on the way to a Cup[/TD]
[TD]1959

AS - 2nd at LW behind Moore

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]2002

AS - 3rd behind Sakic/Sundin and ahead of Modano

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
9th points

Playoffs - Strong performance during an unexpected Finals run

Lemieux/Jagr influence

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]1933

AS - 2nd behind Northcott, ahead of Bun Cook

Hart - None

2nd goals
X assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Entire Kid Line was weirdly disappointing in a Finals run

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1977

AS - 2nd at C, narrowly behind Dionne and well ahead of Clarke

7th goals
9th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Good in 2 rounds

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1983

AS - 3rd at C, well behind Gretzky/Savard and well ahead of Pederson/Dionne

Hart - Fringe

x goals
3rd assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Solid in a first-round loss[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]3rd Best[/TD][TD]1947
AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Dumart

Hart - none

X goals
4th assists
6th points

Playoffs - None

Outscored by Max

Not wartime, but 1947 is a somewhat weak season[/TD]
[TD]2001

AS - 2nd at RW behind Jagr and ahead of Kovalev

Hart - Fringe

1st goals
X assists
7th points

Playoffs - None

Notorious for lack of defense during this period

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]2010

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

Selke - 1st narrowly over Kesler

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - Decent in 2 rounds. Increased his regular season output, but still lower than 2 teammates[/TD]
[TD]1966

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

3rd goals
9th assists
7th points

Playoffs - Productive yet odd. In a Finals run, he led all players in assists but didn't score any goals[/TD]
[TD]1996

AS - Fringe at both C and LW

Hart - None

Selke - 2nd behind Fedorov and ahead of Yzerman

X goals
1st assists
4th points

Lemieux/Jagr influence[/TD]
[TD]1935

AS - 1st at LW ahead of Gottselig/Thompson

Hart - None

3rd goals
X assists
5th points

Playoffs - Very strong; led league in playoff points despite losing a Finals sweep.

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1980

AS - 3rd at C, way behind Dionne and Gretzky and about even with Trottier

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Dominant in 3 rounds[/TD]
[TD]1986

AS - 3rd at C behind Gretzky/Lemieux and narrowly ahead of Savard

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
6th points

Playoffs - Disappointing in a first-round upset[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]4th Best[/TD][TD]1944

AS - 1st at LW, over Cain

Hart - 3rd behind Pratt/Cowley, narrowly over Seibert

1st goals
9th assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Strong 1st round, questionable Finals

No Max

The most talent-depleted season in history[/TD]
[TD]1993

AS - 3rd at RW, behind Selanne/Mogilny and narrowly over Tocchet and Recchi

Hart - None

5th goals
X assists
X points

Playoffs - Solid in 2 rounds, but below his regular season level[/TD]
[TD]2013

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

3rd in Selke voting behind Toews/Bergeron

Unranked goals
8th assists
10th points

Playoffs - Disappointing in 2 rounds[/TD]
[TD]1965

AS - Fringe at both C and LW

Hart - Fringe

8th goals
4th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Decent showing in a first-round loss[/TD]
[TD]1990

AS - None

Hart - None

Selke - 5th in a cluster of also-rans

X goals
7th assists
X points

Playoffs - Decent in a first-round loss

Weak Hartford team[/TD]
[TD]1937

AS - 1st ahead of Schriner/Lewis/Joliat

Hart - None

4th goals
9th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Scored Toronto's only goal in a 2-game series loss

No Kid Line[/TD]
[TD]1975

AS - 3rd behind Clarke/Esposito, ahead of Dionne

Hart - None

X goals
X assists
9th points

Playoffs - Good in 3 rounds

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1984

AS - 4th at center, close behind Pederson

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Good in 2 rounds[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]5th Best[/TD][TD]1948

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

Playoffs - None

X goals
1st assists
3rd points

No Max[/TD]
[TD]1998

AS - 3rd at RW, behind Jagr/Selanne and narrowly ahead of Bondra

Hart - None

3rd goals
X assists
3rd inpoints

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]2006

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

X goals
9th assists
X points

Very disappointing in a first-round upset

Weird post-lockout season[/TD]
[TD]1956

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

7th goals
X assists
9th points

Playoffs - strong in a Finals run
[/TD]
[TD]1998

AS - 3rd at C behind Forsberg/Gretzky and ahead of Allison

Hart - Fringe

Selke - 4th in a cluster of also-rans

x goals
4th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Decent in a 1st round upset

Jagr influence, but no Mario[/TD]
[TD]1934

AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Joliat

Hart - None

6th goals
10th assists
7th points

Playoffs - Very disappointing in a first-round upset[/TD]
[TD]1973

AS - None

Hart - 3rd behind Esposito/Clarke, ahead of Lemaire/Ratelle/MacLeish

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - Good in a first-round loss

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1980

CSSR Golden Stick, over Novy

8th in Izvestia Trophy (Best European Player) voting as the highest ranked CSSR player, behind the best Swede/Finn and a the Red Machine players

2nd in Olympic scoring behind Novy

@DN28 estimates a scoring finish around ~15th[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I noticed that Bure seemed to have relatively low EV point collaboration numbers, so I ran his EV point collaboration numbers by position from 1993-94 to 2002-03 and compared them to other star wingers in that time period. The results are below. What this means is the average even strength goal that Pavel Bure got a point on had 1.10 forwards getting a point and 0.53 defencemen, on average. When compared to other top scoring wingers over this time period, Bure was combining for goals with defencemen more frequently -- about 10-20% more than the others per goal. And he was combining for goals with other forwards much less frequently than the others. This may have been because he played with weak linemates, and maybe also because of his style of play.

Player	ESP	PC with forwards	PC with defence	Forwards/point	Defence/point	Total/point
Pavel Bure	378	415	202	1.10	0.53	1.63
Jaromir Jagr	658	859	303	1.31	0.46	1.77
Mark Recchi	441	607	185	1.38	0.42	1.80
Keith Tkachuk	443	577	197	1.30	0.44	1.74
Theo Fleury	436	529	187	1.21	0.43	1.64
Brett Hull	419	519	179	1.24	0.43	1.67
Peter Bondra	382	470	170	1.23	0.45	1.68
Teemu Selanne	470	583	191	1.24	0.41	1.65
Paul Kariya	375	468	166	1.25	0.44	1.69

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

i think this tells us something that i believe we already all know, out of almost any forward he took on/was given the most responsibilities moving the puck out of his own zone.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I wish we had time to really break down each player's best-5 and compare them head to head in detail. This group is somewhat characterized by extremes of longevity vs extremes of peak, so it would be helpful to know precisely how big the peak-gaps look, and then adjust from there for durability and consistency.

I'm going to take a very superficial shot at this, recognizing that I don't have time to do it with total accuracy, so this will be somewhat made to have holes poked in it. Also, the forwards took up all the time I have so if someone else wants to take a crack at D and G for cross-positional comparisons... please do!


X = Simply "not top 10"

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD][/TD]
[TD]Bentley[/TD][TD]Bure[/TD][TD]Datsyuk[/TD][TD]Delvecchio[/TD][TD]Francis[/TD][TD]Jackson[/TD][TD]Perreault[/TD][TD]Stastny[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Best[/TD][TD]1949

AS - 2nd at C behind Abel, ahead of Ronty

Hart - 4th, tied with 2 others (Lindsay/Ronty)

6th goals
1st assists
2nd points

No Max

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]1994

AS - 1st at RW over Neely, Hull

Hart - Fringe

1st goals
X assists
5th points

Playoffs - Excellent; led all players in goals, led his team in all offensive categories, fell 1 goal short of a Cup[/TD]
[TD]2009

AS - 2nd at C behind Malkin and ahead of Crosby

Hart - 3rd behind Ovechkin/Malkin

Selke - 1st, narrowly over Mike Richards

X goals
5th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Disappointing, largely due to playing through injury[/TD]
[TD]1953

AS - 2nd at C behind MacKell

X goals
2nd assists
4th points

Playoffs - Solid showing in a first-round upset[/TD]
[TD]1995

AS - 2nd at C, behind Lindros/Zhamnov and ahead of Sakic

Selke - 1st narrowly over Tikkanen

X goals
1st assists
5th points

Playoffs - Strong in 2 series

Half-season with split award voting[/TD]
[TD]1932

AS - 1st over Joliat/Kilrea

Hart - None

3rd goals
3rd assists
1st points

Playoffs - Very good in a Cup win

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1976

AS - 2nd at C behind Clarke, narrowly ahead of Mahovlich

Hart - Fringe

9th goals
3rd assists
3rd points

Playoffs - Slightly disappointing in a 2-round run

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1982

AS - 3rd at C, way behind Gretzky/Trottier and ahead of Maruk/Savard

Hart - Fringe

X goals
2nd assists
3rd points

Playoffs - Good in 3 rounds

Highest scoring period in modern NHL [/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2nd Best[/TD][TD]1943

AS - 2nd at LW ahead of Patrick

Hart - 2nd behind Cowley

1st goals
5th assists
1st points

Playoffs - None

Scored more raw points than Max, though Max had higher PPG


Wartime season[/TD]
[TD]2000

AS - 2nd at LW behind Jagr and ahead of Nolan

Hart - 3rd, close behind Pronger and Jagr

1st goals
X assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Decent individual showing in a sweep

Notorious for lack of defense during this period

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]2008

AS - 3rd at C, narrowly behind Thornton and ahead of Lecavalier/Crosby

Hart - Fringe

Selke - 1st over Madden/Zetterberg

X goals
2nd assists
4th points

Strong playoffs on the way to a Cup[/TD]
[TD]1959

AS - 2nd at LW behind Moore

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]2002

AS - 3rd behind Sakic/Sundin and ahead of Modano

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
9th points

Playoffs - Strong performance during an unexpected Finals run

Lemieux/Jagr influence

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]1933

AS - 2nd behind Northcott, ahead of Bun Cook

Hart - None

2nd goals
X assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Entire Kid Line was weirdly disappointing in a Finals run

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1977

AS - 2nd at C, narrowly behind Dionne and well ahead of Clarke

7th goals
9th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Good in 2 rounds

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1983

AS - 3rd at C, well behind Gretzky/Savard and well ahead of Pederson/Dionne

Hart - Fringe

x goals
3rd assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Solid in a first-round loss[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]3rd Best[/TD][TD]1947
AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Dumart

Hart - none

X goals
4th assists
6th points

Playoffs - None

Outscored by Max

Not wartime, but 1947 is a somewhat weak season[/TD]
[TD]2001

AS - 2nd at RW behind Jagr and ahead of Kovalev

Hart - Fringe

1st goals
X assists
7th points

Playoffs - None

Notorious for lack of defense during this period

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]2010

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

Selke - 1st narrowly over Kesler

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - Decent in 2 rounds. Increased his regular season output, but still lower than 2 teammates[/TD]
[TD]1966

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

3rd goals
9th assists
7th points

Playoffs - Productive yet odd. In a Finals run, he led all players in assists but didn't score any goals[/TD]
[TD]1996

AS - Fringe at both C and LW

Hart - None

Selke - 2nd behind Fedorov and ahead of Yzerman

X goals
1st assists
4th points

Lemieux/Jagr influence[/TD]
[TD]1935

AS - 1st at LW ahead of Gottselig/Thompson

Hart - None

3rd goals
X assists
5th points

Playoffs - Very strong; led league in playoff points despite losing a Finals sweep.

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1980

AS - 3rd at C, way behind Dionne and Gretzky and about even with Trottier

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Dominant in 3 rounds[/TD]
[TD]1986

AS - 3rd at C behind Gretzky/Lemieux and narrowly ahead of Savard

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
6th points

Playoffs - Disappointing in a first-round upset[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]4th Best[/TD][TD]1944

AS - 1st at LW, over Cain

Hart - 3rd behind Pratt/Cowley, narrowly over Seibert

1st goals
9th assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Strong 1st round, questionable Finals

No Max

The most talent-depleted season in history[/TD]
[TD]1993

AS - 3rd at RW, behind Selanne/Mogilny and narrowly over Tocchet and Recchi

Hart - None

5th goals
X assists
X points

Playoffs - Solid in 2 rounds, but below his regular season level[/TD]
[TD]2013

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

3rd in Selke voting behind Toews/Bergeron

Unranked goals
8th assists
10th points

Playoffs - Disappointing in 2 rounds[/TD]
[TD]1965

AS - Fringe at both C and LW

Hart - Fringe

8th goals
4th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Decent showing in a first-round loss[/TD]
[TD]1990

AS - None

Hart - None

Selke - 5th in a cluster of also-rans

X goals
7th assists
X points

Playoffs - Decent in a first-round loss

Weak Hartford team[/TD]
[TD]1937

AS - 1st ahead of Schriner/Lewis/Joliat

Hart - None

4th goals
9th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Scored Toronto's only goal in a 2-game series loss

No Kid Line[/TD]
[TD]1975

AS - 3rd behind Clarke/Esposito, ahead of Dionne

Hart - None

X goals
X assists
9th points

Playoffs - Good in 3 rounds

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1984

AS - 4th at center, close behind Pederson

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Good in 2 rounds[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]5th Best[/TD][TD]1948

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

Playoffs - None

X goals
1st assists
3rd points

No Max[/TD]
[TD]1998

AS - 3rd at RW, behind Jagr/Selanne and narrowly ahead of Bondra

Hart - None

3rd goals
X assists
3rd inpoints

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]2006

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

X goals
9th assists
X points

Very disappointing in a first-round upset

Weird post-lockout season[/TD]
[TD]1956

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

7th goals
X assists
9th points

Playoffs - strong in a Finals run[/TD]
[TD]1998

AS - 3rd at C behind Forsberg/Gretzky and ahead of Allison

Hart - Fringe

Selke - 4th in a cluster of also-rans

x goals
4th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Decent in a 1st round upset

Jagr influence, but no Mario[/TD]
[TD]1934

AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Joliat

Hart - None

6th goals
10th assists
7th points

Playoffs - Very disappointing in a first-round upset[/TD]
[TD]1973

AS - None

Hart - 3rd behind Esposito/Clarke, ahead of Lemaire/Ratelle/MacLeish

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - Good in a first-round loss

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1980

CSSR Golden Stick, over Novy

8th in Izvestia Trophy (Best European Player) voting as the highest ranked CSSR player, behind the best Swede/Finn and a the Red Machine players

2nd in Olympic scoring behind Novy

@DN28 estimates a scoring finish around ~15th[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

Fantastic!

Going to pour myself a cup of coffee and look over this. Definitely one of the scenarios where having 15 candidates is working against us.

 

[overpass]

i think this tells us something that i believe we already all know, out of almost any forward he took on/was given the most responsibilities moving the puck out of his own zone.

Yeah I would agree. I find it interesting that it shows up in the numbers like that.

These are the defencemen he combined with most often. Respect to Robert Svehla, there are some solid names in there, but not really any all stars, let alone HHOFers.

Players	EV PC with Bure
Robert Svehla	37
Bret Hedican	26
Jyrki Lumme	16
Dave Babych	15
Jaroslav Spacek	12
Dana Murzyn	8
Jiri Slegr	8
Mattias Ohlund	6
Grant Ledyard	5
Tom Poti	5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yeah I would agree. I find it interesting that it shows up in the numbers like that.

These are the defencemen he combined with most often. Respect to Robert Svehla, there are some solid names in there, but not really any all stars, let alone HHOFers.

Players	EV PC with Bure
Robert Svehla	37
Bret Hedican	26
Jyrki Lumme	16
Dave Babych	15
Jaroslav Spacek	12
Dana Murzyn	8
Jiri Slegr	8
Mattias Ohlund	6
Grant Ledyard	5
Tom Poti	5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

even jeff brown (who doesn't show up on that list and this is why) was not a great puck mover, one spectacular breakaway pass notwithstanding.

he was dynamite on the powerplay though, and i think it's safe to say bure benefited from playing with him there.

 

[blogofmike]

even jeff brown (who doesn't show up on that list and this is why) was not a great puck mover, one spectacular breakaway pass notwithstanding.

he was dynamite on the powerplay though, and i think it's safe to say bure benefited from playing with him there.

Bure was used on the PP, but he doesn’t seem to have the same high PP usage as the other stars of his day (the other Pond-dwellers for instance).

Might help to explain why he has lower totals, and might have cost him a chance to steal an Art Ross from an injured Jagr in 2000, when Bure did lead the league in ES scoring (again, Jagr missed a quarter of the season).

 

[MXD]

i think this tells us something that i believe we already all know, out of almost any forward he took on/was given the most responsibilities moving the puck out of his own zone.

However, compared to his contemporaries (read : the whole pool of players, not his inexistent contemporaries in the current vote), he wasn't at a significant disadvantage (or maybe even not at a disadvantage at all), and we aren't comparing Bure's numbers in the 1940ies, so claiming that Bure is disadvantaged compared to, say, Doug Bentley, because Bure only benefitted from non-HHOF puckmovers, while Bentley benefitted from... ehh... Earl Seibert at the tail end of the latter's career, and Bill Gadsby at the very beginning of the latter's career (when he became, as far as I now, only the 3rd D-Men* to skate something akin to a full season before reaching the age of 20) AND at what ended up being the end of HIS own career) is neither here or there.

Bure had MORE puck-moving support than Bentley had, since his numbers aren't studied in Bentley's context, but in his own. Also, giving him MORE support would probably have the effect of taking what's possibly his best "intangible" argument for his relevance in this group : rushing the puck himself, at least for the earliest part of his career.

* I can't remember about that : was Clancy mostly used as a forward on his first season? If so, that would make Gadsby the second.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Bure was used on the PP, but he doesn’t seem to have the same high PP usage as the other stars of his day (the other Pond-dwellers for instance).

Might help to explain why he has lower totals, and might have cost him a chance to steal an Art Ross from an injured Jagr in 2000, when Bure did lead the league in ES scoring (again, Jagr missed a quarter of the season).

Bure was also a very good even strength scorer on the road, which is kind of unexpected for a player who was usually by far his team's leading scoring threat. That tends to imply he was either very difficult to shut down, or his team didn't go all out to force-feed him offensive opportunities at home, or possibly both.

Even Strength Points Per Game, 1992-93 to 2002-03:

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Player[/TD][TD]Home[/TD][TD]Road[/TD][TD]Road GP [/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Jagr[/TD][TD]1.03[/TD][TD]0.81[/TD][TD]395[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Selanne[/TD][TD]0.74[/TD][TD]0.67[/TD][TD]400[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Bure[/TD][TD]0.72[/TD][TD]0.71[/TD][TD]325 [/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]LeClair[/TD][TD]0.71[/TD][TD]0.67[/TD][TD]365[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Kariya[/TD][TD]0.70[/TD][TD]0.57[/TD][TD]298 [/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Fleury[/TD][TD]0.71[/TD][TD]0.54[/TD][TD]398[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Recchi[/TD][TD]0.69[/TD][TD]0.56[/TD][TD]423[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Robitaille[/TD][TD]0.66[/TD][TD]0.44[/TD][TD]408[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Tkachuk[/TD][TD]0.66[/TD][TD]0.59[/TD][TD]384[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Shanahan[/TD][TD]0.60[/TD][TD]0.54[/TD][TD]411[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

It sure looks to me like Bure got significantly worse team support than the typical elite player of his time and didn't really get deployed in a way to maximize his stats other than maybe in Florida (and even there he was only 18th in PP TOI/GP among forwards in 1999-00 and 2000-01 combined while finishing 2nd to only Jagr in even strength points on the road).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bure was also a very good even strength scorer on the road, which is kind of unexpected for a player who was usually by far his team's leading scoring threat. That tends to imply he was either very difficult to shut down, or his team didn't go all out to force-feed him offensive opportunities at home, or possibly both.

Even Strength Points Per Game, 1992-93 to 2002-03:

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Player[/TD][TD]Home[/TD][TD]Road[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Jagr[/TD][TD]1.03[/TD][TD]0.81[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Selanne[/TD][TD]0.74[/TD][TD]0.67[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Bure[/TD][TD]0.72[/TD][TD]0.71[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]LeClair[/TD][TD]0.71[/TD][TD]0.67[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Kariya[/TD][TD]0.70[/TD][TD]0.57[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Fleury[/TD][TD]0.71[/TD][TD]0.54[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Recchi[/TD][TD]0.69[/TD][TD]0.56[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Robitaille[/TD][TD]0.66[/TD][TD]0.44[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Tkachuk[/TD][TD]0.66[/TD][TD]0.59[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Shanahan[/TD][TD]0.60[/TD][TD]0.54[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
It sure looks to me like Bure got significantly worse team support than the typical elite player of his time and didn't really get deployed in a way to maximize his stats other than maybe in Florida (and even there he was only 18th in PP TOI/GP among forwards in 1999-00 and 2000-01 combined while finishing 2nd to only Jagr in even strength points on the road).

Would it be easy for you to add a column with games played? Thanks. No biggie if not; I still haven't been able to totally figure out tables in the newish software...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

However, compared to his contemporaries (read : the whole pool of players, not his inexistent contemporaries in the current vote), he wasn't at a significant disadvantage (or maybe even not at a disadvantage at all), and we aren't comparing Bure's numbers in the 1940ies, so claiming that Bure is disadvantaged compared to, say, Doug Bentley, because Bure only benefitted from non-HHOF puckmovers, while Bentley benefitted from... ehh... Earl Seibert at the tail end of the latter's career, and Bill Gadsby at the very beginning of the latter's career (when he became, as far as I now, only the 3rd D-Men* to skate something akin to a full season before reaching the age of 20) AND at what ended up being the end of HIS own career) is neither here or there.

Bure had MORE puck-moving support than Bentley had, since his numbers aren't studied in Bentley's context, but in his own. Also, giving him MORE support would probably have the effect of taking what's possibly his best "intangible" argument for his relevance in this group : rushing the puck himself, at least for the earliest part of his career.

* I can't remember about that : was Clancy mostly used as a forward on his first season? If so, that would make Gadsby the second.

tbh, i wasn't even meaning to comment on bure vs anyone in this thread. i was more pointing that out to distinguish bure from his peers, as opposed to him just being another cookie cutter scoring winger, a la selanne kariya jagr hull etc. i mean they all have things that are their own, and this is bure's unique thing.

which imo is a pretty big contribution, a winger basically being your transition game the way cup winning teams of the time using a leetch or lidstrom or even ozolinsh.

 

[sr edler]

Bure was used on the PP, but he doesn’t seem to have the same high PP usage as the other stars of his day (the other Pond-dwellers for instance).

Might help to explain why he has lower totals, and might have cost him a chance to steal an Art Ross from an injured Jagr in 2000, when Bure did lead the league in ES scoring (again, Jagr missed a quarter of the season).

He often played the point on the power play, both in VAN (mostly) and FLA (a bit less). Though I think his roles fluctuated a bit season-to-season (or perhaps even in-season?), depending on the year. He did lead the league in PP goal scoring once (93–94) with 25, so he could do that too, but that was kind of an outlier season regarding his normal PP goal scoring (at least in VAN), outside of 00–01 in Florida when he had 19.

91–92: PP goals: 7 | PP assists: 9
92–93: PP goals: 13 | PP assists: 20
93–94: PP goals: 25 | PP assists: 18
94–95: PP goals: 6 | PP assists: 7
95–96: PP goals: 1 | PP assists: 4
96–97: PP goals: 4 | PP assists: 8
97–98: PP goals: 13 | PP assists: 12

VAN: PP goals: 69 | PP assists: 78

98–99: PP goals: 5 | PP assists: 0
99–00: PP goals: 11 | PP assists: 9
00–01: PP goals: 19 | PP assists: 9
01–02: PP goals: 9 | PP assists: 12

FLA: PP goals 44 | PP assists: 30

01–02: PP goals: 3 | PP assists: 0
02–03: PP goals: 5 | PP assists: 7

NYR: PP goals 8 | PP assists: 7

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I get your reasoning and I'm mostly agreeing with it, though Bernard Parent doesn't seem like a very good situation where to apply it.

The performances behind the AS voting results and the AS voting results are also two very different things. I'm sure you'll agree with me that in '69 and '70, Bernard Parent almost certainly outplayed and deserved more praise than Ed Giacomin, despite finishing below him in AS voting.

Is that based strictly on save percentage?

 

[blogofmike]

Is that based strictly on save percentage?

1969 Parent had the better save percentage on an expansion 6 team that was 3-12-5 with the other goalie while facing the 4th most PKs. Giacomin was behind an Original 6 team with the fewest PKs.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Would it be easy for you to add a column with games played? Thanks. No biggie if not; I still haven't been able to totally figure out tables in the newish software...

Sure, I added it in road GP since I still had that available. Bure doesn't look too bad in GP either because I'm selecting the seasons where he played and comparing to everyone else, but the main point was really more about the home/road split.

 

[ted2019]

At this point, these 3 are in my top 5.

I fully understand the Langway thing. Without seeing him play the accolades don't jive with the numbers.

I saw Langway play and he was dominant, controlled the game. He's VERY high on my list.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I wish we had time to really break down each player's best-5 and compare them head to head in detail. This group is somewhat characterized by extremes of longevity vs extremes of peak, so it would be helpful to know precisely how big the peak-gaps look, and then adjust from there for durability and consistency.

I'm going to take a very superficial shot at this, recognizing that I don't have time to do it with total accuracy, so this will be somewhat made to have holes poked in it. Also, the forwards took up all the time I have so if someone else wants to take a crack at D and G for cross-positional comparisons... please do!


X = Simply "not top 10"

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD][/TD]
[TD]Bentley[/TD][TD]Bure[/TD][TD]Datsyuk[/TD][TD]Delvecchio[/TD][TD]Francis[/TD][TD]Jackson[/TD][TD]Perreault[/TD][TD]Stastny[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]Best[/TD][TD]1949

AS - 2nd at C behind Abel, ahead of Ronty

Hart - 4th, tied with 2 others (Lindsay/Ronty)

6th goals
1st assists
2nd points

No Max

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]1994

AS - 1st at RW over Neely, Hull

Hart - Fringe

1st goals
X assists
5th points

Playoffs - Excellent; led all players in goals, led his team in all offensive categories, fell 1 goal short of a Cup[/TD]
[TD]2009

AS - 2nd at C behind Malkin and ahead of Crosby

Hart - 3rd behind Ovechkin/Malkin

Selke - 1st, narrowly over Mike Richards

X goals
5th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Disappointing, largely due to playing through injury[/TD]
[TD]1953

AS - 2nd at C behind MacKell

X goals
2nd assists
4th points

Playoffs - Solid showing in a first-round upset[/TD]
[TD]1995

AS - 2nd at C, behind Lindros/Zhamnov and ahead of Sakic

Selke - 1st narrowly over Tikkanen

X goals
1st assists
5th points

Playoffs - Strong in 2 series

Half-season with split award voting[/TD]
[TD]1932

AS - 1st over Joliat/Kilrea

Hart - None

3rd goals
3rd assists
1st points

Playoffs - Very good in a Cup win

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1976

AS - 2nd at C behind Clarke, narrowly ahead of Mahovlich

Hart - Fringe

9th goals
3rd assists
3rd points

Playoffs - Slightly disappointing in a 2-round run

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1982

AS - 3rd at C, way behind Gretzky/Trottier and ahead of Maruk/Savard

Hart - Fringe

X goals
2nd assists
3rd points

Playoffs - Good in 3 rounds

Highest scoring period in modern NHL [/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2nd Best[/TD][TD]1943

AS - 2nd at LW ahead of Patrick

Hart - 2nd behind Cowley

1st goals
5th assists
1st points

Playoffs - None

Scored more raw points than Max, though Max had higher PPG


Wartime season[/TD]
[TD]2000

AS - 2nd at LW behind Jagr and ahead of Nolan

Hart - 3rd, close behind Pronger and Jagr

1st goals
X assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Decent individual showing in a sweep

Notorious for lack of defense during this period

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]2008

AS - 3rd at C, narrowly behind Thornton and ahead of Lecavalier/Crosby

Hart - Fringe

Selke - 1st over Madden/Zetterberg

X goals
2nd assists
4th points

Strong playoffs on the way to a Cup[/TD]
[TD]1959

AS - 2nd at LW behind Moore

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]2002

AS - 3rd behind Sakic/Sundin and ahead of Modano

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
9th points

Playoffs - Strong performance during an unexpected Finals run

Lemieux/Jagr influence

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]1933

AS - 2nd behind Northcott, ahead of Bun Cook

Hart - None

2nd goals
X assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Entire Kid Line was weirdly disappointing in a Finals run

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1977

AS - 2nd at C, narrowly behind Dionne and well ahead of Clarke

7th goals
9th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Good in 2 rounds

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1983

AS - 3rd at C, well behind Gretzky/Savard and well ahead of Pederson/Dionne

Hart - Fringe

x goals
3rd assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Solid in a first-round loss[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]3rd Best[/TD][TD]1947
AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Dumart

Hart - none

X goals
4th assists
6th points

Playoffs - None

Outscored by Max

Not wartime, but 1947 is a somewhat weak season[/TD]
[TD]2001

AS - 2nd at RW behind Jagr and ahead of Kovalev

Hart - Fringe

1st goals
X assists
7th points

Playoffs - None

Notorious for lack of defense during this period

Dead Puck season[/TD]
[TD]2010

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

Selke - 1st narrowly over Kesler

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - Decent in 2 rounds. Increased his regular season output, but still lower than 2 teammates[/TD]
[TD]1966

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

3rd goals
9th assists
7th points

Playoffs - Productive yet odd. In a Finals run, he led all players in assists but didn't score any goals[/TD]
[TD]1996

AS - Fringe at both C and LW

Hart - None

Selke - 2nd behind Fedorov and ahead of Yzerman

X goals
1st assists
4th points

Lemieux/Jagr influence[/TD]
[TD]1935

AS - 1st at LW ahead of Gottselig/Thompson

Hart - None

3rd goals
X assists
5th points

Playoffs - Very strong; led league in playoff points despite losing a Finals sweep.

Kid Line influence[/TD]
[TD]1980

AS - 3rd at C, way behind Dionne and Gretzky and about even with Trottier

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Dominant in 3 rounds[/TD]
[TD]1986

AS - 3rd at C behind Gretzky/Lemieux and narrowly ahead of Savard

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
6th points

Playoffs - Disappointing in a first-round upset[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]4th Best[/TD][TD]1944

AS - 1st at LW, over Cain

Hart - 3rd behind Pratt/Cowley, narrowly over Seibert

1st goals
9th assists
2nd points

Playoffs - Strong 1st round, questionable Finals

No Max

The most talent-depleted season in history[/TD]
[TD]1993

AS - 3rd at RW, behind Selanne/Mogilny and narrowly over Tocchet and Recchi

Hart - None

5th goals
X assists
X points

Playoffs - Solid in 2 rounds, but below his regular season level[/TD]
[TD]2013

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

3rd in Selke voting behind Toews/Bergeron

Unranked goals
8th assists
10th points

Playoffs - Disappointing in 2 rounds[/TD]
[TD]1965

AS - Fringe at both C and LW

Hart - Fringe

8th goals
4th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Decent showing in a first-round loss[/TD]
[TD]1990

AS - None

Hart - None

Selke - 5th in a cluster of also-rans

X goals
7th assists
X points

Playoffs - Decent in a first-round loss

Weak Hartford team[/TD]
[TD]1937

AS - 1st ahead of Schriner/Lewis/Joliat

Hart - None

4th goals
9th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Scored Toronto's only goal in a 2-game series loss

No Kid Line[/TD]
[TD]1975

AS - 3rd behind Clarke/Esposito, ahead of Dionne

Hart - None

X goals
X assists
9th points

Playoffs - Good in 3 rounds

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1984

AS - 4th at center, close behind Pederson

Hart - Fringe

X goals
4th assists
4th points

Playoffs - Good in 2 rounds[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]5th Best[/TD][TD]1948

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

Playoffs - None

X goals
1st assists
3rd points

No Max[/TD]
[TD]1998

AS - 3rd at RW, behind Jagr/Selanne and narrowly ahead of Bondra

Hart - None

3rd goals
X assists
3rd inpoints

Playoffs - None[/TD]
[TD]2006

AS - Fringe

Hart - Fringe

X goals
9th assists
X points

Very disappointing in a first-round upset

Weird post-lockout season[/TD]
[TD]1956

AS - Fringe

Hart - None

7th goals
X assists
9th points

Playoffs - strong in a Finals run[/TD]
[TD]1998

AS - 3rd at C behind Forsberg/Gretzky and ahead of Allison

Hart - Fringe

Selke - 4th in a cluster of also-rans

x goals
4th assists
5th points

Playoffs - Decent in a 1st round upset

Jagr influence, but no Mario[/TD]
[TD]1934

AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Joliat

Hart - None

6th goals
10th assists
7th points

Playoffs - Very disappointing in a first-round upset[/TD]
[TD]1973

AS - None

Hart - 3rd behind Esposito/Clarke, ahead of Lemaire/Ratelle/MacLeish

X in major stat categories

Playoffs - Good in a first-round loss

WHA season[/TD]
[TD]1980

CSSR Golden Stick, over Novy

8th in Izvestia Trophy (Best European Player) voting as the highest ranked CSSR player, behind the best Swede/Finn and a the Red Machine players

2nd in Olympic scoring behind Novy

@DN28 estimates a scoring finish around ~15th[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

Coming back to this now that I’ve had time to actually read and digest what I was writing.

- This has Bure and Jackson looking pretty good in terms of peak, and Datsyuk’s best season is probably the best in the entire group (maybe Burke’s 1994 if we include playoffs). Delvecchio’s best season looks pretty weak in this group.

- This also has Bure and Jackson looking pretty good in terms of their 3rd-5th best seasons. To a lesser extent also Francis, Perreault, and Stastny. For some voters, the competitive difference between center and wing might flatten that out a bit.

- On the other side of the coin, Datsyuk looks pretty weak in his best off-peak seasons... the fact that you can see that so clearly on a 5-year analysis speaks to just how high and brief his peak really was.

- This format highlights the fact that Bentley had a year where he was 1st in assists and 3rd in points, while presumably good defensively (?) but got virtually no award support. That might be worth a closer look.

- I didn’t expect Delvecchio to compare well at the top end of the order, but I’m surprised how “blah” he looks in his 5th best season.

- Maybe Bure and Datsyuk can challenge Bernie Parent’s absolute peak, but I don’t see anyone else here who comes close.

 

[MXD]

- This also has Bure and Jackson looking pretty good in terms of their 3rd-5th best seasons. To a lesser extent also Francis, Perreault, and Stastny. For some voters, the competitive difference between center and wing might flatten that out a bit.

It's not "might". It REALLY, but REALLY should flatten that out.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's not "might". It REALLY, but REALLY should flatten that out.

I agree, but I don’t think everyone does.

 

[MXD]

I agree, but I don’t think everyone does.

...Then we have a problem.

 

[DN28]

Vasiliev, Quackenbush and Stewart look to be the 3 best d-men available this vote and I think it's time for these three to be enshrined on our list.

Vasiliev, Quackenbush and Stewart all had seasons where they likely were the best defensemen in the world; I wouldn't say the same about Lapointe, Savard and Langway.

1) Valeri Vasiliev. I don't know how people feel about my estimation of Vasiliev's 1979 but I guess my argument would go like this: It's generally agreed upon that by the early 1970s at most, the elite European players developed well enough to match equally with the best players of what NA had to offer. So how many times a Euro d-man or a Euro goalie would be able to overpower whoever the current best NHL d-man or a goalie would be in each individual 1970s seasons?

I've touched on this last vote with Holeček discussion. By my observation, the best goaltending seasons in 1970s Europe, the seasons where a goalie would be regarded as one of the best players in the game and thus not a tier below skaters of Kharlamov, Maltsev caliber - were Holeček's 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1978. The first 2 seasons of these happened to coincide with Parent's two-season stretch of arguably greatest goaltending ever. The third one coincides with Dryden's perhaps peak season of his career. Hence my, I think, very conservative estimation that a European goalie was the best at his position in the world only once throughout the decade (1978).

What about the European defensemen? Again by my observation, the 1970s seasons where a European defenseman stood out even among forwards and goalies were three: 1971 of Jan Suchý, 1972 of František Pospíšil and 1979 of Valeri Vasiliev. The first 2 coincide with Bobby Orr's years so no chance there. That leaves us again with just one season where a person can reasonably say that a Euro d-man happened to be at the top of the defensemen hierarchy (in the 1970s). I don't think it's too bold of a claim especially given what in fact happened when the Soviets and NHL all-stars clashed (results of the Challenge Cup). 1979 is sometimes brought up as the climax of Soviet hockey program and their clearly best d-man from that particular season should be given a treatment in line with that.

2) Bill Quackenbush. Quackenbush has an obvious case for the title of best d-man in the world for two consecutive seasons (1948, 1949). Two seasons are better one (1979 in Vasiliev's case) but the discussion has revealed a lot of question marks. Quackenbush's playoffs in these two seasons (and not just in those two) are definitely not what one would expect from a presumably #1 NHL defenseman.

3) Jack Stewart. Stewart looks like a clear-cut best d-man in the world in 1943 - best AST voting record by a solid margin and a Stanley Cup on top of that. After this - probably career year - he missed two seasons due to WW2. Stewart had primed for maybe two other elite seasons such as his 1943 but didn't have the opportunity due to no fault of his own.

4) Guy Lapointe & Serge Savard. I don't think these two players were considered best d-men in the world at any point in time. I get that they both have excellent playoff resumé but at the same time they spent their careers in a watered down league which lacked plenty of elite European and WHA players. Which is why I think their Norris records need no special adjustment. Overall, just not as good in terms of individual achievements as Stewart, Quackenbush and Vasiliev.

5) Rod Langway. Twice the Norris winner in 1983, 1984 - seasons which coincide with peak Fetisov (and prime Kasatonov). No chance for Langway being an actual best defenseman in the world when a much more balanced Fetisov was there too, in my humble opinion.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Vasiliev, Quackenbush and Stewart look to be the 3 best d-men available this vote and I think it's time for these three to be enshrined on our list.

Vasiliev, Quackenbush and Stewart all had seasons where they likely were the best defensemen in the world; I wouldn't say the same about Lapointe, Savard and Langway.

1) Valeri Vasiliev. I don't know how people feel about my estimation of Vasiliev's 1979 but I guess my argument would go like this: It's generally agreed upon that by the early 1970s at most, the elite European players developed well enough to match equally with the best players of what NA had to offer. So how many times a Euro d-man or a Euro goalie would be able to overpower whoever the current best NHL d-man or a goalie would be in each individual 1970s seasons?

I've touched on this last vote with Holeček discussion. By my observation, the best goaltending seasons in 1970s Europe, the seasons where a goalie would be regarded as one of the best players in the game and thus not a tier below skaters of Kharlamov, Maltsev caliber - were Holeček's 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1978. The first 2 seasons of these happened to coincide with Parent's two-season stretch of arguably greatest goaltending ever. The third one coincides with Dryden's perhaps peak season of his career. Hence my, I think, very conservative estimation that a European goalie was the best at his position in the world only once throughout the decade (1978).

What about the European defensemen? Again by my observation, the 1970s seasons where a European defenseman stood out even among forwards and goalies were three: 1971 of Jan Suchý, 1972 of František Pospíšil and 1979 of Valeri Vasiliev. The first 2 coincide with Bobby Orr's years so no chance there. That leaves us again with just one season where a person can reasonably say that a Euro d-man happened to be at the top of the defensemen hierarchy (in the 1970s). I don't think it's too bold of a claim especially given what in fact happened when the Soviets and NHL all-stars clashed (results of the Challenge Cup). 1979 is sometimes brought up as the climax of Soviet hockey program and their clearly best d-man from that particular season should be given a treatment in line with that.

2) Bill Quackenbush. Quackenbush has an obvious case for the title of best d-man in the world for two consecutive seasons (1948, 1949). Two seasons are better one (1979 in Vasiliev's case) but the discussion has revealed a lot of question marks. Quackenbush's playoffs in these two seasons (and not just in those two) are definitely not what one would expect from a presumably #1 NHL defenseman.

3) Jack Stewart. Stewart looks like a clear-cut best d-man in the world in 1943 - best AST voting record by a solid margin and a Stanley Cup on top of that. After this - probably career year - he missed two seasons due to WW2. Stewart had primed for maybe two other elite seasons such as his 1943 but didn't have the opportunity due to no fault of his own.

4) Guy Lapointe & Serge Savard. I don't think these two players were considered best d-men in the world at any point in time. I get that they both have excellent playoff resumé but at the same time they spent their careers in a watered down league which lacked plenty of elite European and WHA players. Which is why I think their Norris records need no special adjustment. Overall, just not as good in terms of individual achievements as Stewart, Quackenbush and Vasiliev.

5) Rod Langway. Twice the Norris winner in 1983, 1984 - seasons which coincide with peak Fetisov (and prime Kasatonov). No chance for Langway being an actual best defenseman in the world when a much more balanced Fetisov was there too, in my humble opinion.

I agree that Vasiliev should make it this round. But I don't really think he was the best in the world at any time, and nor should that matter.