Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[tarheelhockey]

I realize that Savard had much tougher competition, but still, we are comparing him to a guy who was probably the co-#1 defenseman in the world (along with Cleghorn) for half a decade.

One thing that struck me as I was putting together the post above: the pool of defensemen ~1920 was weaker than I expected, and the pool ~1977 was stronger. Not just because of generalized era differences, but because of the specific individuals involved.

I guess I tend to think of 1920 and 1925 as being more similar than they actually are. WWI era was pretty darn weak for D. Which is to say -- I'm kind of surprised that Gerard can make a legitimate case as co-#1. I'm willing to go to bat for him, but I feel like that status is more about the weakness of the era than any sort of transcendence he achieved.

If Orr hadn't been hurt, the mid-late 70s would have been pretty close to the early 90s as far as high-end defensemen are concerned. I'm not sure we have as many superstar D right now as there were (or at least should have been) in the late 70s. That seems kind of like random variance to me, because certainly I wouldn't say the same about forwards or goalies.

 

[BenchBrawl]

One thing that struck me as I was putting together the post above: the pool of defensemen ~1920 was weaker than I expected, and the pool ~1977 was stronger. Not just because of generalized era differences, but because of the specific individuals involved.

I guess I tend to think of 1920 and 1925 as being more similar than they actually are. WWI era was pretty darn weak for D. Which is to say -- I'm kind of surprised that Gerard can make a legitimate case as co-#1. I'm willing to go to bat for him, but I feel like that status is more about the weakness of the era than any sort of transcendence he achieved.

If Orr hadn't been hurt, the mid-late 70s would have been pretty close to the early 90s as far as high-end defensemen are concerned. I'm not sure we have as many superstar D right now as there were (or at least should have been) in the late 70s. That seems kind of like random variance to me, because certainly I wouldn't say the same about forwards or goalies.

I don't think the pool of defensemen was so bad in the early 1920s, mostly because it had a few defensemen that, while generally not ranked very high on our lists, had great peaks. I'm thinking of Art Duncan, Georges Boucher and Joe Simpson in particular. Their peak made them tough competition, albeit in a limited window.

If anything, it was a rather strong era for top-end defenders. Not comparable to the late-1970s, but the latter are reputed as arguably the toughest competition of defensemen of all-time.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I used to prefer Guy Lapointe, but Serge Savard has a lot of points in his favor:

• He has a much better big game legacy.
• He was a better leader.
• Scotty Bowman, in his Top 100 Canadian players of all-time list, ranked Savard 20th, Robinson 27th and Lapointe 39th.
• Most who saw them play favor Savard by a significant margin, despite what the voting says. (The more games I watch, the more I agree)
• Savard was more at ease playing both sides of the ice.
• Savard was elite at defense ; Lapointe more of a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none.

Not according to Dryden.

I saw them play. I'd take Lapointe.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't think the pool of defensemen was so bad in the early 1920s, mostly because it had a few defensemen that, while generally not ranked very high on our lists, had great peaks. I'm thinking of Art Duncan, Georges Boucher and Joe Simpson in particular. Their peak made them tough competition, albeit in a limited window.

If anything, it was a rather strong era for top-end defenders. Not comparable to the late-1970s, but the latter are reputed as arguably the toughest competition of defensemen of all-time.

If by early 1920s you mean 1923+, I agree.

But even just a couple years earlier, it’s really not strong at all. Duncan wasn’t yet the force he would become, and Simpson didn’t go pro until ‘21.

This doesn’t make Gerard a worse player, but I do think it impacts the way we view him relative to league competition.

 

[Batis]

Anyway, it's without a doubt that Maltsev had greater longevity as an impact player than Martinec, but I tend to think that Martinec's short prime was probably better. Would you disagree?

I would tend to agree with this as I think that Martinec's best 7-year period (72/73-78/79) probably is somewhat superior to any 7-year period of Maltsev's prime.

Taking a look at their voting finishes in their respective player of the year voting this is how Martinec's 72/73-78/79 period compares to Maltsev's best consecutive 7-year period in 69/70-75/76.

Martinec: 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 4, 7
Maltsev: 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 8, 9

Obviously this is not a perfect comparison considering that even if Martinec's prime was at a highpoint of Czechoslovakian hockey I think that it is fair to say that Maltsev on average faced at least somewhat higher competition in the Soviet player of the year voting than what Martinec on average faced in the Czechoslovak golden stick voting. But I would still probably rank Martinec ahead of Maltsev when it comes to their best consecutive 7-year periods. Then the question is if the possible edge that Martinec has there is big enough to overcome Maltsev's superior elite longevity? Personally I have not yet made my mind up when it comes to answering that question.

For completeness sake here are their career top 10 finishes in their respective player of the year voting.

Martinec: 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7
Maltsev: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9, 10

 

[MXD]

Toe Blake was also something of the blueprint for the players who would patrol LW for the Canadiens starting from the Tom Gorman era. I dont know if that's significant or not.

 

[buffalowing88]

I find Gilmour to be more and more overrated due to him playing in Toronto. Gilmour was an above average player until those 2 great seasons in Toronto. After that, he really went back to being a really good 2nd line center. I also will have Doughty ahead of Karlsson, but way below Vasiliev.

Have you seen the 86 or 89 playoff runs from Gilmour? Definitely acknowledged him as a hockey fan first because of the Toronto years, but he was a stud for some time before that.

Appreciate you giving Doughty credit, though. Figured we'd eventually find that player well regarded.

 

[buffalowing88]

Curious to know what you've been reading that would make you less enthusiastic about Ullman.

Totally been reading articles online/posts on here and the ATD. I'd rather be challenged than wrong so I bought Mr. Hockey and The Original Six Dynasties: Detroit Red Wings books. May take a minute for me to read them but I'd rather be better informed at this point. I still think this forum is the best for getting a true opinion on a player, but I'm also free in terms of time to delve into them.

 

[Theokritos]

I have no idea what to do with Bowie, but first impression is to make him wait a couple of rounds until we add some of the true stars of stronger eras.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I'm reading Bruce Berglund's The Fastest Game in the World at the moment and here's a sentence I've just came across that seems somehwat relevant (pages 30-31): "Historian Michel Vigneault has calculated that there were fewer than two hundred players in the whole of Montreal in 1890, only five of whom were French. A decade later, there were 744 English and 148 French players."

 

[tarheelhockey]

One thing that struck me as I was putting together the post above: the pool of defensemen ~1920 was weaker than I expected, and the pool ~1977 was stronger. Not just because of generalized era differences, but because of the specific individuals involved.

I guess I tend to think of 1920 and 1925 as being more similar than they actually are. WWI era was pretty darn weak for D. Which is to say -- I'm kind of surprised that Gerard can make a legitimate case as co-#1. I'm willing to go to bat for him, but I feel like that status is more about the weakness of the era than any sort of transcendence he achieved.

If Orr hadn't been hurt, the mid-late 70s would have been pretty close to the early 90s as far as high-end defensemen are concerned. I'm not sure we have as many superstar D right now as there were (or at least should have been) in the late 70s. That seems kind of like random variance to me, because certainly I wouldn't say the same about forwards or goalies.

If by early 1920s you mean 1923+, I agree.

But even just a couple years earlier, it’s really not strong at all. Duncan wasn’t yet the force he would become, and Simpson didn’t go pro until ‘21.

This doesn’t make Gerard a worse player, but I do think it impacts the way we view him relative to league competition.

OK, after reviewing the epic ATD profile on Gerard written by @BenchBrawl I'll argue against myself on the point about Gerard's competition.

In 1925, MacLean's published an article by Charles Good (here) which specifically addresses the question of which players were the best of all-time. The results were produced by a survey of hockey luminaries including Lester Patrick, W.A. Hewitt, Tommy Gorman, and several newspaper editors.

The consensus all-time AST had Gerard on the 2nd team, with Hod Stuart and Sprague Cleghorn at first D. That being said, here are the individual results:

W.A. Hewitt	Hod Stuart, Eddie Gerard
Lester Patrick	Hod Stuart, Sprague Cleghorn
J.E. Ahearn	Hod Stuart, Scotty Davidson
Tommy Gorman	Eddie Gerard, Sprague Cleghorn
W.J. Morrison	Sprague Cleghorn, Georges Boucher
Sandy Hook	Hod Stuart, Sprague Cleghorn
Druce Boreham	Eddie Gerard, Stan Brown
K.G.H. McConnell	Joe Simpson, Georges Boucher
Roy Halpin	Sprague Cleghorn, Art Ross
Ross McKay	Hod Stuart, Sprague Cleghorn
Harry Scott	Hod Stuart, Moose Johnson
O.F. Young	Doc Gibson, Roy Brown
Art Ross	Hod Stuart, Si Griffis, Lester Patrick
Frank Shaughnessey	Hod Stuart, Eddie Gerard
James T. Sutherland	Scotty Davidson, Babe Donnelly

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

We can draw a couple of conclusions from this list:

1) In 1925, the only thing close to a consensus was that Hod Stuart was the best D of all time. Even at this relatively late stage, we can still see a clear subculture where amateur play was regarded as being different and perhaps even superior to professionalism. And perhaps even more of a confounding factor is geography, whereby most of the newspapermen are speaking from regional expertise. Hence a very wide pool of candidates.

2) In 1925, Gerard was as good a candidate as any for the 3rd best defenseman of all time, not just of the past decade. And to rank him 2nd would have been a mainstream view.

@BenchBrawl reinforces that point with the following AST ballots provided by players who would have seen every star of the early 20th century play up close and personal. Each of these men listed Eddie Gerard as a starting D on their all-time all-star team:

Aurel Joliat, 1936
Red Dutton 1938
Shorty Green, 1943
Mickey Ion, 1943 (unranked list including 7 defensemen)
Frank Nighbor, 1944 (unranked list of including 5 defensemen)
Tommy Gorman, 1947
Aurel Joliat, 1948 (unranked list including 5 defensemen)
Hap Day, 1948 (asked to rank pre-1926 players)
Cyclone Taylor, 1956
Foster Hewitt, 1961
Ace Bailey, 1968
King Clancy, 1979 (said Gerard was the best of the era)

In Trail of the Stanley Cup, Charles Coleman selected Gerard as a top-4 defenseman for the period 1893-1926. Coleman selected Cleghorn and Johnson for his top pair, meaning Gerard joined Harry Cameron on the second team.

In 1945, Gerard was one of three defensemen inducted into the inaugural class. Hod Stuart and Harvey Pulford were the others.


Summary: Whether or not we give a lot of weight to the competition Gerard faced during the late 1910s and early 1920s, the bigger picture is that he was widely regarded as no worse than the 3rd best defenseman of the pre-1926 (pre-Shore) era.

Hod Stuart (not yet ranked) and Sprague Cleghorn (our #57) are the only D who receive mainstream recognition exceeding Gerard's. It was not out of the ordinary for Gerard to be listed #1 above Stuart and Cleghorn. So, it's a bit deceptive to note Gerard as the ~2nd best defenseman of 1920 when he was more like the ~2nd best defenseman of a 30+ year period.

 

[sr edler]

I realize that Savard had much tougher competition, but still, we are comparing him to a guy who was probably the co-#1 defenseman in the world (along with Cleghorn) for half a decade.

Gerard was not a better player nor a bigger overall star on D around 1915–1925 than Moose Johnson. Johnson carried the Rosebuds to a one-goal game 5 of the 1916 SCFs against the Montreal Canadiens as the undisputed best player of his team before Gerard even was a D. Gerard didn't carry his team's defense, or his teams in general, on the same scope, or to the same extent, but had lots of help from Georges Boucher & Company, plus his window as a D was pretty brief. 1920–1925 though Johnson broke down as an impact player because of injuries, but his career (both on forward & D) had more substance than Gerard's, in my humble opinion. That's not saying Gerard's substance was insignificant, it wasn't, but he did spend most of his career as a second scoring wave LW.

Gerard being in the 1st HHOF class is nice & all, but I think a lot of that probably had to do with his elder statesman image. Hobey Baker was also in the 1945 HHOF class, but we're not pitching him here right? I have a suspicion/theory that some of the players who left the East (NHA) to become long-time stars on the West (PCHA) were punished for it and had to wait little longer than some of the guys who stayed home. Even Cyclone Taylor had to wait for the 2nd class in 1947.

That said I don't think Gerard would look out of place on a top 200 list, but perhaps it's just a little early.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Gerard was not a better player nor a bigger overall star on D around 1915–1925 than Moose Johnson. Johnson carried the Rosebuds to a one-goal game 5 of the 1916 SCFs against the Montreal Canadiens as the undisputed best player of his team before Gerard even was a D. Gerard didn't carry his team's defense, or his teams in general, on the same scope, or to the same extent, but had lots of help from Georges Boucher & Company,

To be fair, Johnson would also not have carried the dynasty Sens the way he carried the Rosebuds. Johnson was paired with Del Irvine and Clem Loughlin, not Sprague Cleghorn and Georges Boucher. Had Johnson been paired with those much better guys, we'd be making the exact same argument about him instead of making it about Gerard.

It's no different than how Savard did not carry the Habs the way he would have carried the Capitals. It goes without saying... not sure what we're supposed to do with that information, though.

I have a lot of time for Moose Johnson, but I can't see him being on a different tier than Gerard. It's close between them, but that's largely because Johnson was also a top-tier star of the era, like Salming to Savard.

plus his window as a D was pretty brief... he did spend most of his career as a second scoring wave LW.

In my post here, I have Gerard playing 6 of his 10 years at full-time defense. Another 2 years doing spot-duty at D depending on the circumstance, including a very effective appearance at D in a Finals game way back in 1915, his sophomore season. He definitely did not play most of his career at LW.

I'm not sure what you mean by "second scoring wave LW". If that means a sub or second-liner, no, he was Ottawa's starting LW the entire time. His final season at LW, 1917, he started over Cy Denneny who had been a top-5 goal scorer the season before.

 

[Staniowski]

Gerard was not a better player nor a bigger overall star on D around 1915–1925 than Moose Johnson. Johnson carried the Rosebuds to a one-goal game 5 of the 1916 SCFs against the Montreal Canadiens as the undisputed best player of his team before Gerard even was a D. Gerard didn't carry his team's defense, or his teams in general, on the same scope, or to the same extent, but had lots of help from Georges Boucher & Company, plus his window as a D was pretty brief. 1920–1925 though Johnson broke down as an impact player because of injuries, but his career (both on forward & D) had more substance than Gerard's, in my humble opinion. That's not saying Gerard's substance was insignificant, it wasn't, but he did spend most of his career as a second scoring wave LW.

Gerard being in the 1st HHOF class is nice & all, but I think a lot of that probably had to do with his elder statesman image. Hobey Baker was also in the 1945 HHOF class, but we're not pitching him here right? I have a suspicion/theory that some of the players who left the East (NHA) to become long-time stars on the West (PCHA) were punished for it and had to wait little longer than some of the guys who stayed home. Even Cyclone Taylor had to wait for the 2nd class in 1947.

That said I don't think Gerard would look out of place on a top 200 list, but perhaps it's just a little early.

Eddie Gerard was likely in the first HHOF class because he had already passed away.

All 9 of the player inductees in the first class were inducted posthumously; all 7 player inductees in the second class were still living. I assume this is not a coincidence.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Blake's 3-year peak (1938-40) vs Iginla's 3-year peak (2002-04)

Blake 1938
Scoring

16th in scoring by raw points, would have been around 10th in a full season
11th in raw goals, would have been around 8th in a full season
Effectively 2nd on his team in scoring, behind Mantha​

Playoffs

Good in the playoffs, leading his team in goal scoring and points (a 3-way tie). Habs were the first team upset by the historically crazy Cinderella run by the 1938 Hawks.​

Nevertheless, he won 2AS. It should be said that it was one of those convoluted ballots where it's hard to understand what the voters intended. Paul Thompson was the clear-cut 1AS, while Blake emerged from a pile that included Lynn Patrick, Georges Mantha, Sweeney Schriner, and Busher Jackson. Schriner and especially his teammate Mantha had better numbers, so it's worth looking into how Blake overtook them in the hearts of the voters.

Blake 1939
Scoring

1st in points
2nd in goals
7th in assists (one guy ahead of him was his teammate)
Led his team in goals and points, 2nd behind his center Paul Haynes in assists​

Playoffs

Hard to judge. He had 1-1-2 in 3 games, in the context of his team only scoring 5 goals. In a matchup between two very bad teams, the Habs lost 1-0 in OT in the deciding 3rd game.​

Leading the league in scoring for an awful Habs team, Blake won the Hart running away over Syl Apps and Johnny Gottselig. It was a weird year for Hart voting as the other contenders for the scoring title, Schriner and Bill Cowley, saw Hart support go to G and D teammates. The Rangers, who were one of only 2 teams over .500, did not place a player in the Hart top-5. The result was Apps and Gottselig, who finished relatively low in scoring on bad teams, being Hart finalists behind Blake. Again this may be worth a longer look, to see what the voters were thinking about. Blake was the overwhelming 1AS choice over Gottselig and Schriner.

Blake 1940
Scoring

7th in points
7th in goals
9th in assists
Led his team in all scoring categories, including large margins for G and P​

Playoffs

Habs were unbelievably bad (10-33-5) and mercifully missed the playoffs​

Blake's 1AS in this context is interesting. Again it comes down to convoluted balloting: Blake had 14 first-team votes and 7 second-team votes, while Woody Dumart had 13 first-team votes and 9 second-team votes. Meaning Dumart actually had more votes than Blake, but I assume Blake won on a point system. Bryan Hextall was the only other LW to get a first-place vote, so it was very much a 2-horse race that Blake won by a nose over Dumart. For his part, Dumart was a top-3 scorer on the league's dominant team. Implicitly, the voters must have felt that Dumart's statistical edge was an illusion created by team support.


Iginla 2002
Scoring

1st in points
1st in goals
18th in assists
Led his team in G and P by large margins, 2nd in assists to his center Craig Conroy​

Playoffs/International

Flames finished 11th to miss the playoffs
Late addition to the Olympic team. Nothing noteworthy until the gold medal game, when he scored 2-1-3 including two late points to close out a 5-2 win.​

Iginla famously lost the Hart in a tiebreaker to Jose Theodore, with Roy and Burke the next two vote-getters. I don't know what to make of the goalies rating so highly that year, other than that Iginla was practically the only player to put up normal-looking offensive numbers that year. Iginla was, notably, the consensus 1AS at RW with a 60-0-0 showing. Bill Guerin, Glen Murray, Pavol Demitra trailed distantly.

Iginla 2003
Scoring

34th in raw points, would have finished about 25th on a full schedule
17th in raw goals, would have finished 7th on a full schedule
Despite missing some games, led his team in G and P, again finished behind only Conroy in assists​

Playoffs

Flames finished last in their division and didn't come close to the playoffs​

Iginla received no award recognition this year. Everyone who got a vote (with the exception of one 3rd place for Lehtinen) finished with better statistical numbers, so that's understandable, but it's a remarkably stark contrast from the prior season. Especially going from 60-0-0 to 0-0-0. He only missed 7 games so it's not like injuries were the only issue.

Iginla 2004
Scoring

t-1st in goals, lost the race on a GP tiebreaker to Rick Nash (81 games to 80)
18th in points
As before, led the Flames in G and P (now by disgusting margins) and was behind only Conroy in assists​

Playoffs/International

Extremely strong playoffs, leading the team in scoring in the context of a 7-seed making a Finals Game 7 run
Alternate captain for Canada's World Cup team. 2-1-3 was disappointing considering he skated with Lemieux and Sakic on a gold-medal winning team, and all the points came in a 5-0 win over Slovakia.​

Notably, the Flames captaincy was moved from Conroy (who did not leave the team) to Iginla prior to this season. Iginla finished a distant 2nd in Hart voting to Martin St. Louis, and was again in close company with goalies as Brodeur and his teammate Kiprusoff finished 3rd and 4th. He also finished 2nd to St. Louis in RW voting, decisively ahead of Hossa and Alfredsson.


Summary:

I think Blake's award voting in each of these seasons warrants a closer look. In my opinion there is real ambiguity about what each of them means. His 1938 AS finish is peculiar in context of his teammate Mantha, his 1939 Hart finish involved an unusual set of finalists, and his 1940 AS was by the slimmest margin imaginable over Dumart.

In contrast, it's pretty obvious that Iginla was regarded as either the 1st or 2nd best winger in hockey in 2002 and 2004, and was at least in the conversation as best overall player. That seems clear-cut. 2003 was a much weaker year, which probably warrants a closer look.

In my opinion, Iginla's peak is clearly higher than Blake's unless I have missed something pretty important about these seasons.

 

[overpass]

Leading the league in scoring for an awful Habs team, Blake won the Hart running away over Syl Apps and Johnny Gottselig. It was a weird year for Hart voting as the other contenders for the scoring title, Schriner and Bill Cowley, saw Hart support go to G and D teammates. The Rangers, who were one of only 2 teams over .500, did not place a player in the Hart top-5. The result was Apps and Gottselig, who finished relatively low in scoring on bad teams, being Hart finalists behind Blake. Again this may be worth a longer look, to see what the voters were thinking about. Blake was the overwhelming 1AS choice over Gottselig and Schriner.

I believe the ballots were submitted before the end of the season. Gottselig was top 3 in scoring for almost the whole season before falling behind in the final week or two.

NHL Stats

 

[MXD]

Tldr: 1st scorer in the league on a awful team with bad linemates in the 30ies (When the most valuable to team component of the Hart was most prevalent) = How is it a strange Hart win, exactly? It's one of the most obvious, if anything.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think he says strange Hart voting, not strange Hart win...

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think he says strange Hart voting, not strange Hart win...

Exactly. The pattern of finalists is odd, which makes a curious parallel to 2002.

 

[sr edler]

To be fair, Johnson would also not have carried the dynasty Sens the way he carried the Rosebuds. Johnson was paired with Del Irvine and Clem Loughlin, not Sprague Cleghorn and Georges Boucher. Had Johnson been paired with those much better guys, we'd be making the exact same argument about him instead of making it about Gerard.

It's no different than how Savard did not carry the Habs the way he would have carried the Capitals. It goes without saying... not sure what we're supposed to do with that information, though.

I have a lot of time for Moose Johnson, but I can't see him being on a different tier than Gerard. It's close between them, but that's largely because Johnson was also a top-tier star of the era, like Salming to Savard.



In my post here, I have Gerard playing 6 of his 10 years at full-time defense. Another 2 years doing spot-duty at D depending on the circumstance, including a very effective appearance at D in a Finals game way back in 1915, his sophomore season. He definitely did not play most of his career at LW.

I'm not sure what you mean by "second scoring wave LW". If that means a sub or second-liner, no, he was Ottawa's starting LW the entire time. His final season at LW, 1917, he started over Cy Denneny who had been a top-5 goal scorer the season before.

I didn't say Johnson's necessarily on a different tier than Gerard, one can prefer a player in front of another player without placing them on different tiers. That said we don't have any proof Gerard would have pulled off a Moose in Portland, I personally think that's a bit far-fetched.

As for Gerard being an LW or a D let's just say he was both. I'm including his New Edinburgh exploits in this equation, because he was there more than briefly.

I didn't mean Gerard was a 2nd liner but I've not seen much that indicates he was an out-of-the-ordinary game-breaker from the wing either, like say Jack Darragh or even Punch Broadbent. Gerard (outside of one year?) wasn't even the primary scorer on the Burgh, that was Charlie S to the Snelling.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I didn't say Johnson's necessarily on a different tier than Gerard, one can prefer a player in front of another player without placing them on different tiers. That said we don't have any proof Gerard would have pulled off a Moose in Portland, I personally think that's a bit far-fetched.

I don't think it's far-fetched at all, given that the people who actually played with and against both players seem to have held them (at worst) in equal regard at the time, and strongly preferred Gerard in hindsight.

"Far-fetched" implies that there's a strong reason to think Gerard could not have carried a team. What is that reason? Is it because he played on a team that didn't need to be carried?

As for Gerard being an LW or a D let's just say he was both. I'm including his New Edinburgh exploits in this equation, because he was there more than briefly.

I agree he was both. That's a positive, not a negative. He was a very good LW and a top-tier D.

In the context of your claim that his turn at D was "brief", I don't see how playing LW as an amateur has anything to do with playing the majority of his professional career at D (which is why we're comparing him to Johnson in the first place).

I didn't mean Gerard was a 2nd liner but I've not seen much that indicates he was an out-of-the-ordinary game-breaker from the wing either, like say Jack Darragh or even Punch Broadbent.

I don't think anyone's selling him as a Broadbent-level scoring winger. If that were true, he'd be on the Red Kelly level as an all-round tour de force. It's pretty clear that he was more impactful at D than at wing.

That being said, he was a starting wing on the best hockey team in the world, and he did take that position over Cy Denneny who was a top-tier scorer of the generation, and he was given the salary of an elite player.

Clearly he was a high-end winger when his entire game (offensive and defensive) is taken into consideration. How else would you explain his career path? The dynasty Sens didn't just hand out huge salaries and starting-lineup spots to whoever showed up.

Gerard (outside of one year?) wasn't even the primary scorer on the Burgh, that was Charlie S to the Snelling.

Let's be clear about this...

1909-10 (Gerard age 19 playing rover, Snelling age 24 playing center) - Snelling outscores Gerard 23-17; they finish 1-2 in the league.

1910-11 (Gerard age 20 playing rover, Snelling age 25 playing center) - Snelling outscores Gerard 11-9

1911-12 (Gerard age 21 playing mostly rover with a dash of LW, Snelling no longer playing) - Gerard scores 12 goals in 11 games; nevertheless finishes behind 4 teammates who were also the top 4 scorers in the league (including Punch Broadbent and Carl Kendall, who the following season led their NHA/PCHA teams in scoring)

1912-13 (Gerard age 22 playing LW, Snelling no longer playing) - Gerard led both his team and the league in scoring; captained the Ottawa All-Star team in exhibitions as a clear-cut sign of being the top player in the league; signed to a lucrative pro contract the following season


So yes, while playing rover he was indeed outscored by a much older centerman. He then proceeded to become the best scorer in the league and become a star professional, while the other guy apparently quit hockey to become a truck driver.

 

[sr edler]

That being said, he was a starting wing on the best hockey team in the world, and he did take that position over Cy Denneny who was a top-tier scorer of the generation, and he was given the salary of an elite player.

Denneny was new from Toronto that year, and probably had to pay his dues for a while. Also, I'm not super high on Denneny either.

He then proceeded to become the best scorer in the league and become a star professional, while the other guy apparently quit hockey to become a truck driver.

Snelling quit to become a truck driver? Where's this info from? He was a paddler too though. In the amateur/pro game break we don't know all the reasons why players didn't jump on the pro game. Off the top of my head, I believe Montreal tried to acquire Coo Dion, but Dion didn't want to because reasons. Canadiens tried to acquire lots of guys. Quebec HC and Toronto Shamrocks both tried to nab Harry McLaughlin of Grand'Mere, but for some reason he wasn't interested/didn't show up/didn't jump on it. Snelling in his only game with the Ottawa HC had a hat-trick. There's nothing nowhere that indicates he couldn't handle the pro game. And if you try to downplay Snelling, what does that really say about Gerard's offensive ceiling?

 

[sr edler]

1912-13 (Gerard age 22 playing LW, Snelling no longer playing) - Gerard led both his team and the league in scoring; captained the Ottawa All-Star team in exhibitions as a clear-cut sign of being the top player in the league; signed to a lucrative pro contract the following season

1912–13 I think Gerard was 2nd in league goal-scoring, behind Imbleau, while Brownie Baker & Harry McLaughlin also scored at a higher goal-scoring clip, they just appeared in fewer games. He led his team in goal-scoring though, which isn't bad, but it's not like he blew things away, Greg George 2 goals back, and Jerry Davidson 4 goals back. Gerard was good offensively, but nothing special in the pro game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Denneny was new from Toronto that year, and probably had to pay his dues for a while. Also, I'm not super high on Denneny either.

He was also a top-5 scorer in the NHA. Sitting him on the bench while Gerard started was a pretty clear-cut decision on who had a greater overall impact. That's the only reasonable way to read the decision. The dynasty Sens were not some community club team handing out roster spots to nice guys.

FWIW, Gerard finished 7th in league scoring while being a clearly better defensive player than Denneny.

Snelling quit to become a truck driver? Where's this info from?

His WWI draft card lists him as a "motor truck chauffeur" as of 1918.

In the amateur/pro game break we don't know all the reasons why players didn't jump on the pro game. Off the top of my head, I believe Montreal tried to acquire Coo Dion, but Dion didn't want to because reasons. Canadiens tried to acquire lots of guys. Quebec HC and Toronto Shamrocks both tried to nab Harry McLaughlin of Grand'Mere, but for some reason he wasn't interested/didn't show up/didn't jump on it. Snelling in his only game with the Ottawa HC had a hat-trick. There's nothing nowhere that indicates he couldn't handle the pro game. And if you try to downplay Snelling, what does that really say about Gerard's offensive ceiling?

I'm honestly not sure what this line of argument has to do with anything. Snelling was a centerman in his mid-20s, outscoring a teenage rover. This tells us what? Who exactly do you think was passing to Snelling when he scored those goals? Which of these guys was a top prospect on track to become a professional star while the other was winding down a respectable but trivial amateur career?

Jarome Iginla was outscored by his teammate Hnat Domenichelli as a 19-year-old amateur. Is this a relevant thing to bring up in context of his all-time ranking?

 

[tarheelhockey]

1912–13 I think Gerard was 2nd in league goal-scoring, behind Imbleau, while Brownie Baker & Harry McLaughlin also scored at a higher goal-scoring clip, they just appeared in fewer games. He led his team in goal-scoring though, which isn't bad, but it's not like he blew things away, Greg George 2 goals back, and Jerry Davidson 4 goals back. Gerard was good offensively, but nothing special in the pro game.

SIHR has Gerard tagged as the league leader, perhaps by including playoffs.

Again, if Gerard had been Broadbent-level special as a gamebreaking pro scorer while also being one of the very best D of his generation, then we would have ranked him in the top 100 somewhere between Red Kelly and Mark Howe.

We're talking about him now because it's recognized that at the pro level he was a "pretty good" scorer while being a star D.

 

[sr edler]

His WWI draft card lists him as a "motor truck chauffeur" as of 1918.

You don't know this is why he quit hockey. There could've been a million other reasons. As a 20-year old in his only game with the Ottawa HC he had a hat-trick. Now, Snelling is relatively irrelevant in the sense that Gerard didn't blow away any other relevant players in the city league offensively speaking. Also, you don't know Snelling was a goal-suck propped up by Gerard's playmaking, that seems like a foregone conclusion.