Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1
- Thread starter quoipourquoi
- Start date
- Status
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,720
- 17,613
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
That was kinda my immediate first thought as well.
Also this has to be the only round without a goalie right?
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,720
- 17,613
In that group, he is clearly the player that ended up the highest in the "pecking order" of his days. In fact, Bowie has a claim (and, frankly, it's closer to a right than to a claim) to be called the best player in the world, and he's in the only one with such a "Right" in that group. That is probably not controversial. The only controversy here is how much is that worth.
The other player in that group that possibly have claim to be called the best player in the world (as opposed to the best player in a single season) would be Erik Karlsson. (That's mostly an opinion)
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Professor What
Registered User
Blake, Iginla, Karlsson, and Vasiliev all made my top 100.
Bowie would be on the outside of the top 10 looking in for me based on my initial ballot, but I feel like he's the one with the most movement potential for me. I found him very difficult to place to begin with.
Bowie would be on the outside of the top 10 looking in for me based on my initial ballot, but I feel like he's the one with the most movement potential for me. I found him very difficult to place to begin with.
Professor What
Registered User
I counted 14, but the original post did say "~15," so I'm guessing there might have been a noticeable dropoff creating a neat cutoff
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
7 year VsX records (for post-1926 NHL players):
Norm Ullman 89.5
Peter Stastny 88.4
Jarome Iginla 86.7
Toe Blake 86.3
Doug Gilmour 82.0
Erik Karlsson 74.3 (a rare defenseman to make the threshold to be included)
10 year VsX records for post-expansion players (remember 10 year VsX is likely unfair to pre-expansion players who had, on average, shorter primes/careers)
Norm Ullman 84.7
Jarome Iginla 81.5
Toe Blake 81.4
Peter Stastny 80.8
Doug Gilmour 77.1
Erik Karlsson 62.5
Norris Trophy/All-Star Trophy records of post-1926 NHL Defensemen:
Bill Quackenbush: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7, 10*
Drew Doughty: 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 9
Erik Karlsson: 1, 1, 2, 2, 7
Serge Savard: 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8
*war year
I used Norris records for the three Norris-era defensemen. See this thread for an explanation of what I consider a "nontrivial Norris finish:" Norris trophy voting: complete record
I used Quackenbush's All-Star record. See this thread for how I calculated All-Star records for pre-Norris defensemen: All-Star voting records for defensemen (1930-31 to 1967-68)
Norm Ullman 89.5
Peter Stastny 88.4
Jarome Iginla 86.7
Toe Blake 86.3
Doug Gilmour 82.0
Erik Karlsson 74.3 (a rare defenseman to make the threshold to be included)
10 year VsX records for post-expansion players (remember 10 year VsX is likely unfair to pre-expansion players who had, on average, shorter primes/careers)
Norm Ullman 84.7
Jarome Iginla 81.5
Toe Blake 81.4
Peter Stastny 80.8
Doug Gilmour 77.1
Erik Karlsson 62.5
Norris Trophy/All-Star Trophy records of post-1926 NHL Defensemen:
Bill Quackenbush: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7, 10*
Drew Doughty: 1, 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 9
Erik Karlsson: 1, 1, 2, 2, 7
Serge Savard: 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8
*war year
I used Norris records for the three Norris-era defensemen. See this thread for an explanation of what I consider a "nontrivial Norris finish:" Norris trophy voting: complete record
I used Quackenbush's All-Star record. See this thread for how I calculated All-Star records for pre-Norris defensemen: All-Star voting records for defensemen (1930-31 to 1967-68)
Last edited:
Iginla vs Gilmour is an interesting comparison. Both have tremendous longevity, and very strong prime/career numbers.
Does Iginla get the overall edge offensively on Gilmour? Because without it - I don't see a case for him above Gilmour. Gilmour has:
- Better peak (Iginla may have done better vs peers, but Gilmour had tougher competition at peak)
- Better playoffs (clearly)
- Better defensively (clearly)
I know Iginla is clearly better goal-scorer, but to me that's a component of overall offense.
Does Iginla get the overall edge offensively on Gilmour? Because without it - I don't see a case for him above Gilmour. Gilmour has:
- Better peak (Iginla may have done better vs peers, but Gilmour had tougher competition at peak)
- Better playoffs (clearly)
- Better defensively (clearly)
I know Iginla is clearly better goal-scorer, but to me that's a component of overall offense.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,720
- 17,613
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
First impressions:
- Norm Ullman and Jarome Iginla are probably my top 2 NHL players this round.
- Ullman has the best offensive record available, he scored most of his points at even strength without a ton of offensive help (he played with Gordie Howe for 2 seasons, but usually played on Detroit's 2nd line with relative scrubs or on a defensive Toronto team), and he was solid defensively.
- Iginla was the defining "power forward" of his era. His goal differential compared to his teammates is almost unreal - the kind of thing you'd expect to see from a superstar defensemen, let alone a forward - IMO, this is likely a result of his ability to win puck battles all over the ice.
- After Ullman and Iginla, I like the available defensemen better than the rest of the NHL forwards, except Serge Savard. Serge is, of course, the exact same type of player whose Norris record doesn't capture how good he was. That said, he's SO far behind the rest in that regards. To put it another way: Drew Doughty (perhaps a similar "type" defenseman to Serge) has to rank higher among his peers than Serge did, right?
- Martinec and Maltsev are the next non-NHL Euros who should be added, and both will be high on my list. There has to be some gap between them and Vasiliev, right?
- I have no idea what to do with Bowie, but first impression is to make him wait a couple of rounds until we add some of the true stars of stronger eras.
Among players listed I actually had him last. But I'm not nearly as familiar with his era - will look to read more to re-assess
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,720
- 17,613
Iginla has better "filler" (non-pejorative) seasons, unless I'm getting things wrong.
Iginla isn't just the better goalscorer : Gilmour will end up somewhere between the 2nd or 6th worse goalscorer (amongst forwards) whose career will get reviewed in this project (depending on who gets available), and most of these "suspects" at least did something better than Gilmour.
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,720
- 17,613
I can't quite see such similitude. Doughty got numbers and got to feature as the main man offensively (amongst other things) on an elite (or at least, a multi cup winning) team. If Doughty and Savard were 100% equal players, Doughty would get better Norris support due to his game and his situation.
(This was more an observation on their likeliness to get Norris support than on Doughty and Savard's cases).
Last edited:
Professor What
Registered User
My gut said that Iginla would fare significantly better offensively, but I found that an interesting question and didn't want to just take it for granted, so I did some era adjustment number crunching. With that, I got Iginla at 0.906 ppg and Gilmour at 0.870 ppg. So, it was closer than I expected. That said, I generally give goals a higher weight than assists when doing any statistical look at offense, so Iginla's very clearly better goal scoring record pads his margin. That really was a "weakness" for Gilmour. And also keep in mind that Iginla played on some pathetic teams and still put up the stats.
Professor What
Registered User
I agree with this. I think the two of them are pretty close honestly. I won't hash it out again in here since I know I've talked about it a good bit elsewhere, but I simply can't agree with Doughty's Norris win, and I think Savard fared too poorly in balloting. I don't think an apples to apples Norris comparison works very well for the two of them.
ted2019
History of Hockey
ted2019
History of Hockey
- Alexander Maltsev
- Bill Quackenbush
- Doug Gilmour
- Drew Doughty
- Eddie Gerard
- Erik Karlsson
- Jarome Iginla
- Norm Ullman
- Peter Stastny
- Russell Bowie
- Serge Savard
- Toe Blake
- Valeri Vasiliev
- Vladimir Martinec
Maltsev, Iginla, Martinec, Stastny, Quackenbush, Karlsson, Savard are in my next tier.
Sell me on Gilmour, Doughty, Bowie, Vasiliev with Doughty being lowest on my list.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Bowie is one of maybe 2 players on that list that was "the greatest" player of his time. Successor Fred Taylor has been ranked, Taylor's successor in Nighbor etc have all made the list.
In a project ranking the top 200 players of all time that carries a lot of weight for me. His competition for the time was Tommy Phillips, Frank McGee and Hod Stuart, none of which are on the top 100 list. And possibly all 3 will make this list (McGee is the closest to not making it IMO). We have no representation for the amateur era as of yet, which is fair since it's difficult to work out the hot mess that was hockey at the time.
But to me, his status and production almost speak for themselves.
Edit: My bio from ATD 2017
ted2019
History of Hockey
I see Doughty as being overrated. I find it interesting that his Norris win doesn't come in any of the 2 Kings cup seasons.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
The counter there is he probably could've won either of the Conn Smythe's if I recall the playoff runs accurately.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Bill Quackenbush and Drew Doughty interest me here. They are the only two candidates of this group of 14 that was not eligible in the final round of the previous project (which had 21 names). So they did some leapfrogging with this group of voters.
- Status
