Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread
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ted2019
History of Hockey
do you have Suchy?
Burns does have those 2 excellent WHC best Dman awards (when you look he really dominated as well) and Norris finishes of 1,2,3, 8 along with a 12th and 21st.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
That’s fair, and makes sense when team factors are taken into consideration. LA and Detroit were pretty miserable teams during that phase... I think we’d go into that review with an expectation of giving their goalies a benefit of the doubt.
Maybe the way to think about it is, start with the save % list and then adjust for what we know.
Back to the original subject, I don’t think I’d do the same with goalie wins. Maybe the Chris Osgood era soured me or something.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Fine. We disagree.
But you must admit, Montreal has blown more third period leads than most teams over the last 3 years or so. Correct?
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
I have no idea of that stat off-hand, to be honest...but assuming you looked it up, then sure haha
VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
That's what Henrik Lundqvist is for!
The 2006 Olympic gold medal hero.
Drop Kiprusoff certainly and marginalize Luongo (given there are 11 better goalies than Lu to be selected - see my last post for details).
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ted2019
History of Hockey
ted2019
History of Hockey
I started to look into Vachon the other day and will continue hopefully this weekend.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
Even with Lundqvist, only one 'post-Brodeur's-prime' goalie is too low. We're probably (I think?) gonna see that goaltending dead zone between Dryden and Roy become populated with Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith some time over the span of this next 100, so having the past 10 years be represented by only one goalie in the top 200 players ever while all other stretches of NHL history have multiple representatives doesn't seem right. And for the record, I'm also against quotas.
Lundqvist, Luongo, and Price are all making my list. Hank and Lu both made my list for the last project.
Lundqvist, Luongo, and Price are all making my list. Hank and Lu both made my list for the last project.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
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Era and level of competition? That's an argument one can make. Same type of player? Both were offensive defenceman, but:
1) There is only one season Suchý was accused of not finding the balance between offence and defence. Was there any period in Housley's career when he was balanced?
2) Suchý wasn't accused of being bad in his own zone. He was a #1 defenceman and ice-time leader. The same can't be said for Housley, right?
They were not the same type of player.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
You should not assume.
Just going by observation so I could be proven wrong.
Wondering what you think of Hockey Outsider's goalie evaluation thread (Adjusted save percentage 1956-2020). There are 8 tables. Which ones would you consider most significant?
Then I'd recommend you to go back and read that post again. I've spent a lot of time researching Suchý and other European defensemen and I did find some references about his rushes potentially costing his team in one season (1970). I haven't found anything suggesting that Suchý was a one-way d-man incompetent in his own end. Do you have any evidence of Suchý being weak defensively?
Your Housley comparison is very strange. This is the European hockey of the 1960s and 1970s we are talking about. Every European defenseman who played in that era had to always take care of his own zone first and foremost. Anything that a Euro d-man would provide above that (= contributing offensively) was just a bonus. Suchý's fame rested on him being the first defenseman in Europe (although this is debatable..) who merged offensive actions and defensive duties successfully into his game. In other words, there were no Phil Housleys in European hockey at that era.
That is not to say Suchý was a perfect player but a lack of defensive awareness is not the angle from which we can reasonable criticize him. I'll be the first one writing a negative information about Suchý in a discussion if he appears in some vote in the future.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
At a glance, tables 3 and 6 caught my eye as having the most elite talent near the top...
Manipulating save% itself around seems to not have great results...
I have watched some of the limited video we have of Suchy and he does play like a fourth forward he is alot closer to Housley than say Serge Savard here.
Housley also was a #1 Dman so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
The Czech National team and international hockey circa late 60s and early 70 when Suchy has has short prime certainly wasn't as demanding for the type of player both were in terms of defensive play plain and simple.
I guess if one were purely a peak guy and didn't give much weight to the level of competition but like I pointed out upthread Housley's level of offense at the highest level was matched by perhaps a handfull of Dmen in NHL history period.
He certainly has a stronger case for the top 220 IMO.
I think there are 2 problems in how we are viewing this differently.
1) the difference in the level of competition (and relative team strength to the league or tournament) makes a huge difference in exposing an offensive Dmans weakness.
Everyone that has watched or played the games knows that at one level guys can look pretty decent but notch the level of play up a bit then suddenly weaknesses are exposed.
2) We have tons of "evidence" that enhances the narrative around Housley for Suchy there is much less video and direct comparisons to a higher standard on which to judge him.
I'm not a huge fan of relying too much on written accounts as there are often narratives behind those accounts or put another way a clear lack of critical analysis.
Also the reference to the European Bobby Orr (this isn't directed at you but in the comments I have seen about him here and elsewhere) simply enhances a narrative that doesn't make any sense either it's about as useful as calling Tony Hand the Scottish Gretzky.
Continuing with me making brief cases for the upper-tier non-NHL Euros, I haven't yet talked about Jiří Holeček.
Jiří Holeček is a player whom I've already covered extensively. Interested in season-by-season breakdown of Holeček? Interested in Holeček's international stats and awards? Interested in Holeček's league stats? Or are you curious about Holeček's goaltending style? Only thing I haven't got to post yet is some background about him being kicked-off temporarily from the National team in 2nd half of the 1960s and - related to that - Holeček's ambitious and umm... say, weird personality which seems a necessary requirement to have as an all-time great goalie.
In any case, you can comfortably rank Holeček on the basis of information already provided. I personally see Holeček as a very similar in value to his contemporary Bernie Parent, so if you don't know - just rank Holeček right next to Parent. With regards to his overall ranking, I am struggling to figure out appropriate ranking of goalies vs. skaters, so I'm not sure where Holeček should fit. For now, I have him as a top 110-140 player.
Igor Larionov is the next Soviet in line. He did not reach nearly the same heights as his two Green Unit linemates but he was very talented on his own. Definitely one of the best players outside NHL specifically in the 2nd half of 1980s. Larionov, I think, rightfully won the Soviet Player of the Year award in 1988 as he scored at pretty much the same pace as Makarov & Krutov on domestic and international level along with diligent fulfilling of defensive duties typically assigned more to centers in the Soviet system. I am saying that to make a point that Larionov is not just a player with extreme durability as an effective member of a team. Having said that, Larionov's long career is what impresses me a lot about him. It is incredible that after going through Tikhonov's military regime, the "Professor" was still able to contribute to Stanley Cups for Detroit (even with some timely goals such as 3rd OT goal vs. Carolina in '02 Finals). Even 41 y/o Larionov helped out the Russian team to win Olympic bronze medal at '02 Salt Lake City, where he led the team as a captain. A top 150 player.
Vladimir Petrov is a biggest mystery among the Soviets. He has incredible scoring numbers - on the same level as Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Maltsev internationally - and better than all of them domestically. He was a big and strong center able to go and measure head-to-head with anybody. I think he was also solid defensively for a majority of his career. In spite of this, Petrov has a mediocre Soviet Player of the Year record. He was only 4 times declared a top 5 player within his own country. I'm eagerly waiting for someone to explain why Petrov was so lowly regarded in the Soviet Union. But until that happens, I am going to put my trust to those observers who watched him on a regular basis and rank him accordingly. I must also say that Czech hockey experts of the 1970s also held Petrov's linemates or teammates (Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Maltsev) in a higher respect as well. A top 150-160 player.
Alexei Kasatonov. I am going to be short and say: a top 160-170 player.
František Pospíšil was already mentioned in this thread as well as Kasatonov. He is player who under close inspection is probably end up being a favourite to many of you. He was a charismatic leader who commanded instant respect in the room. Pospíšil was a balanced, two-way defenseman with tremendous CSSR league career. SONP Kladno was an upper-tier Czechoslovak team in the early 70s solely thanks to Pospíšil. With Milan Nový hitting his prime, Kladno became the League's dynasty in the 2nd half of 1970s. Pospíšil's on-ice impact was impossible not to notice. For example, I have a game report Slovan Bratislava vs. SONP Kladno from 1973 which ended up with 4:3 win for Slovan with Václav Nedomanský scoring 2 goals including the game winning goal in 59th minute. Yet, the reporter raved only about Pospíšil's game, whereas Nedomanský's play was critized... This being said, Pospíšil over time went through many highs and lows. Younger Pospíšil had some good to great league seasons in late 60s which were followed by disappointing performances at Championships. Then he had his peak years, particularly excellent 1972 season which was on par with any other Euro skater. But then he was benched the last game of '74 WHC and removed from the National team for good.. Now of course, as I've said few days ago, that Pospíšil rised back into prominent role subsequently only testifies to his greatness. He did adjust his game and stayed in tip top shape past 30. As late as in 1977, there were Canadian writers claiming Pospíšil would have been a sure thing for the NHL All-Star teams. However, his overall career achievements left something to be desired. Not sure if he should be ranked below or above Kasatonov. Anyway, a top 160-180 player.
Jiří Holeček is a player whom I've already covered extensively. Interested in season-by-season breakdown of Holeček? Interested in Holeček's international stats and awards? Interested in Holeček's league stats? Or are you curious about Holeček's goaltending style? Only thing I haven't got to post yet is some background about him being kicked-off temporarily from the National team in 2nd half of the 1960s and - related to that - Holeček's ambitious and umm... say, weird personality which seems a necessary requirement to have as an all-time great goalie.
In any case, you can comfortably rank Holeček on the basis of information already provided. I personally see Holeček as a very similar in value to his contemporary Bernie Parent, so if you don't know - just rank Holeček right next to Parent. With regards to his overall ranking, I am struggling to figure out appropriate ranking of goalies vs. skaters, so I'm not sure where Holeček should fit. For now, I have him as a top 110-140 player.Igor Larionov is the next Soviet in line. He did not reach nearly the same heights as his two Green Unit linemates but he was very talented on his own. Definitely one of the best players outside NHL specifically in the 2nd half of 1980s. Larionov, I think, rightfully won the Soviet Player of the Year award in 1988 as he scored at pretty much the same pace as Makarov & Krutov on domestic and international level along with diligent fulfilling of defensive duties typically assigned more to centers in the Soviet system. I am saying that to make a point that Larionov is not just a player with extreme durability as an effective member of a team. Having said that, Larionov's long career is what impresses me a lot about him. It is incredible that after going through Tikhonov's military regime, the "Professor" was still able to contribute to Stanley Cups for Detroit (even with some timely goals such as 3rd OT goal vs. Carolina in '02 Finals). Even 41 y/o Larionov helped out the Russian team to win Olympic bronze medal at '02 Salt Lake City, where he led the team as a captain. A top 150 player.
Vladimir Petrov is a biggest mystery among the Soviets. He has incredible scoring numbers - on the same level as Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Maltsev internationally - and better than all of them domestically. He was a big and strong center able to go and measure head-to-head with anybody. I think he was also solid defensively for a majority of his career. In spite of this, Petrov has a mediocre Soviet Player of the Year record. He was only 4 times declared a top 5 player within his own country. I'm eagerly waiting for someone to explain why Petrov was so lowly regarded in the Soviet Union. But until that happens, I am going to put my trust to those observers who watched him on a regular basis and rank him accordingly. I must also say that Czech hockey experts of the 1970s also held Petrov's linemates or teammates (Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Maltsev) in a higher respect as well. A top 150-160 player.
Alexei Kasatonov. I am going to be short and say: a top 160-170 player.
František Pospíšil was already mentioned in this thread as well as Kasatonov. He is player who under close inspection is probably end up being a favourite to many of you. He was a charismatic leader who commanded instant respect in the room. Pospíšil was a balanced, two-way defenseman with tremendous CSSR league career. SONP Kladno was an upper-tier Czechoslovak team in the early 70s solely thanks to Pospíšil. With Milan Nový hitting his prime, Kladno became the League's dynasty in the 2nd half of 1970s. Pospíšil's on-ice impact was impossible not to notice. For example, I have a game report Slovan Bratislava vs. SONP Kladno from 1973 which ended up with 4:3 win for Slovan with Václav Nedomanský scoring 2 goals including the game winning goal in 59th minute. Yet, the reporter raved only about Pospíšil's game, whereas Nedomanský's play was critized... This being said, Pospíšil over time went through many highs and lows. Younger Pospíšil had some good to great league seasons in late 60s which were followed by disappointing performances at Championships. Then he had his peak years, particularly excellent 1972 season which was on par with any other Euro skater. But then he was benched the last game of '74 WHC and removed from the National team for good.. Now of course, as I've said few days ago, that Pospíšil rised back into prominent role subsequently only testifies to his greatness. He did adjust his game and stayed in tip top shape past 30. As late as in 1977, there were Canadian writers claiming Pospíšil would have been a sure thing for the NHL All-Star teams. However, his overall career achievements left something to be desired. Not sure if he should be ranked below or above Kasatonov. Anyway, a top 160-180 player.
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You're free to consider Suchý and Housley as similar-style players. All I can say to that is that there is no evidence for it other than your opinion.
Some would also say that Housley's level of defensive incompetence and play-off failures were matched by perhaps a handfull of d-men in NHL history as well.
You're also free to question the level of Suchý's competition. I'd only point out that Housley's 1980s part of career was played out in the league which hadn't yet integrated all the world's top talent.
There actually is quite a bit of evidence that they were both offensive minded Dmen and are known as such.
Sure I have seen highlights of that playoff game in Vancouver many times but playoff failures are very team oriented as well and didn't hurt a guy like Gadsby a great deal in the top 100 project.
I think everyone should evaluate the level of competition and team situation for every player in this project.
True enough and I'm the last person around here that needs to know this.
The fact of the matter is that in the 80's the NHL saw a concentration of talent in a 21 team league that was greater than in the 70s.
In the 80's one also saw the emergence of good to very good to elite players form outside of Canada part of the wave that Housley was included in.
The NHL in the 80s was a completely different animal than when and where Suchy played and even when integration happened in full in the 90s Housley still looks extremely good.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
So, to help aid (in my own way, with my own eyes)...I went back and watched most of the 1969 World Championships Czech vs USSR (group play). I didn't look up rosters to not bias myself, I just affirmed that Suchy was playing. I took a couple of very casual notes on players that stuck out to me while taking a long lunch...
CZE 3 - Good skill, puck rush, decent wheels. Revs it up a good bit. If he's a young player, I'd bet he has a decent future if he progresses.
CZE 17 - Late touch player, terrific skater. Really loves to join the rush. Forces himself into some situations that he doesn't really belong in. You never know where he's going to show up...I saw him as last guy back, I saw him as fifth man in, I saw him accept a two-line zone entry pass for a breakaway where he split the d-men...all in the 1st period. He plays an aggressive style of D, he's small but he tries to hit players up at the entry point - it's a gamble, when it pays off it's really something, when it doesn't, it's a guaranteed scoring chance against. To his credit, he was put out to defend a two-goal lead for the last 90 seconds or so and really buttoned it up. Didn't chase a lot, played within his zone of control. It really went a long way to selling me on his hockey sense.
CZE 7 - Really balanced, composed defenseman. Can rush and play defense. Decent skill level. Wish he was a little better skater (he gets around fine, but he'd be more dangerous with more pop to his stride) and a little bit more accurate passer. If he put more right on the tape, he has a Fetisov Jr. look to him, but Fetisov seemed to never miss a pass. He ended fading as the game went on though.
CZE 14 - Absolute horse. Terrific skill level in the interior, big shot. Beast. Not a great skater in small area, but he did rev it up a couple times. One of those big powerful stride guys that can pull away if he has a three-stride runway. He might be the most technically skilled player on the rink, him and CZE 17 probably.
CZE 20 - Doesn't suck, but he's not on the level of the other players I've seen.
SOV 11 - Has some real nice hands on him. Needs to be a little better with coordination and finishing his plays. He was just a little off on some real nice opportunities. He'll make a nice move or a nice skating play, and then just kind of heel the pass or the shot. Just misses being a super impactful player.
SOV 17 - Has some interesting east-west skill and some giddyup to him. I question his spatial awareness though. He gets pushed into the margins on plays that he shouldn't...if he didn't drift into useless ice, he'd be better because there's a skill+shot combo there.
SOV 12 - Had a few nice rushes, especially late in the game when he really stood out as one of the best players out there. Real good technical skill. He's a late add to the podium for most technically skilled player on the rink for me after a fairly slow start.
##
Again, just very casual notes in the blind...if EP has the correct roster numbers, this is the legend...
CZE 3 = Josef Horesovsky
CZE 17 = Jan Suchy
CZE 7 = Frantisek Pospisil
CZE 14 = Vaclav Nedomansky
CZE 20 = Jiri Holik
SOV 11 = Anatoli Firsov
SOV 17 = Evgeni Zimin
SOV 12 = Valeri Kharlamov
##
I don't know who Horesovsky I don't think...it's promising to me that I know the rest though and they're the ones that stuck out. I also didn't see who I might have "missed"...
I'll also say that this 1969 international game is better than any NHL game I've seen between 1981-1985 by a not-insignificant step except for maybe the Oilers/Islanders series...this is a quality game with quality players, from the goalies out.
Suchy can really play. He's better defensively in this game, even with the flaws, than anything I saw of Housley really...but he has a lot of the same offensive pop. He plays the game very uniquely for the time. I don't know what his career accolades look like, but on pure technical skill among d-men in 1969 he might well be in the conversation for second best in the world (Orr)...check that, he's 100% in the conversation, but he actually might be the answer. I don't think I need to see a second game to say that he's a lock for the top 200, or at the very least, I'll need a lengthy list of d-men that surpass him.
Nedomansky is a [bleepin'] horse, boys...I have a lot of time for Mahovlich, so it's no surprise that I liked this player as well. I don't really know what we think of him or if he left some meat on the bone like The Big M did, but man alive, this guy can play too...
It was cool to find out that 11 was old Firsov, who is like 37 or 38 in this game [edit: he is 28, the author cannot do math, who knows if he's even 11 at this point...yikes]...he must have been a cut above in the 1960's and this Soviet group isn't nearly as impressive as what we see even by 1976...I think he's considered something like a Morenz or whatever for Soviet hockey, as like the first real bonafide superstar, and that seems to have merit considering he was still standing out at the beginning of the next generation...
There's that Zimin again @Theokritos haha...maybe I'm not that good at this after all, that's the second time this month he's stood out to me and I had never heard of him before you pointed me in the right direction...
Young Kharlamov, you look back and see he's 21 and doing that...you know that player is gonna be unreal, and sure enough...
CZE 3 - Good skill, puck rush, decent wheels. Revs it up a good bit. If he's a young player, I'd bet he has a decent future if he progresses.
CZE 17 - Late touch player, terrific skater. Really loves to join the rush. Forces himself into some situations that he doesn't really belong in. You never know where he's going to show up...I saw him as last guy back, I saw him as fifth man in, I saw him accept a two-line zone entry pass for a breakaway where he split the d-men...all in the 1st period. He plays an aggressive style of D, he's small but he tries to hit players up at the entry point - it's a gamble, when it pays off it's really something, when it doesn't, it's a guaranteed scoring chance against. To his credit, he was put out to defend a two-goal lead for the last 90 seconds or so and really buttoned it up. Didn't chase a lot, played within his zone of control. It really went a long way to selling me on his hockey sense.
CZE 7 - Really balanced, composed defenseman. Can rush and play defense. Decent skill level. Wish he was a little better skater (he gets around fine, but he'd be more dangerous with more pop to his stride) and a little bit more accurate passer. If he put more right on the tape, he has a Fetisov Jr. look to him, but Fetisov seemed to never miss a pass. He ended fading as the game went on though.
CZE 14 - Absolute horse. Terrific skill level in the interior, big shot. Beast. Not a great skater in small area, but he did rev it up a couple times. One of those big powerful stride guys that can pull away if he has a three-stride runway. He might be the most technically skilled player on the rink, him and CZE 17 probably.
CZE 20 - Doesn't suck, but he's not on the level of the other players I've seen.
SOV 11 - Has some real nice hands on him. Needs to be a little better with coordination and finishing his plays. He was just a little off on some real nice opportunities. He'll make a nice move or a nice skating play, and then just kind of heel the pass or the shot. Just misses being a super impactful player.
SOV 17 - Has some interesting east-west skill and some giddyup to him. I question his spatial awareness though. He gets pushed into the margins on plays that he shouldn't...if he didn't drift into useless ice, he'd be better because there's a skill+shot combo there.
SOV 12 - Had a few nice rushes, especially late in the game when he really stood out as one of the best players out there. Real good technical skill. He's a late add to the podium for most technically skilled player on the rink for me after a fairly slow start.
##
Again, just very casual notes in the blind...if EP has the correct roster numbers, this is the legend...
CZE 3 = Josef Horesovsky
CZE 17 = Jan Suchy
CZE 7 = Frantisek Pospisil
CZE 14 = Vaclav Nedomansky
CZE 20 = Jiri Holik
SOV 11 = Anatoli Firsov
SOV 17 = Evgeni Zimin
SOV 12 = Valeri Kharlamov
##
I don't know who Horesovsky I don't think...it's promising to me that I know the rest though and they're the ones that stuck out. I also didn't see who I might have "missed"...
I'll also say that this 1969 international game is better than any NHL game I've seen between 1981-1985 by a not-insignificant step except for maybe the Oilers/Islanders series...this is a quality game with quality players, from the goalies out.
Suchy can really play. He's better defensively in this game, even with the flaws, than anything I saw of Housley really...but he has a lot of the same offensive pop. He plays the game very uniquely for the time. I don't know what his career accolades look like, but on pure technical skill among d-men in 1969 he might well be in the conversation for second best in the world (Orr)...check that, he's 100% in the conversation, but he actually might be the answer. I don't think I need to see a second game to say that he's a lock for the top 200, or at the very least, I'll need a lengthy list of d-men that surpass him.
Nedomansky is a [bleepin'] horse, boys...I have a lot of time for Mahovlich, so it's no surprise that I liked this player as well. I don't really know what we think of him or if he left some meat on the bone like The Big M did, but man alive, this guy can play too...
It was cool to find out that 11 was old Firsov, who is like 37 or 38 in this game [edit: he is 28, the author cannot do math, who knows if he's even 11 at this point...yikes]...he must have been a cut above in the 1960's and this Soviet group isn't nearly as impressive as what we see even by 1976...I think he's considered something like a Morenz or whatever for Soviet hockey, as like the first real bonafide superstar, and that seems to have merit considering he was still standing out at the beginning of the next generation...
There's that Zimin again @Theokritos haha...maybe I'm not that good at this after all, that's the second time this month he's stood out to me and I had never heard of him before you pointed me in the right direction...
Young Kharlamov, you look back and see he's 21 and doing that...you know that player is gonna be unreal, and sure enough...
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Fantastic work! Thank you for doing this.
Many of your notes are spot on. For example, I appreciate how you were able to notice Pospíšil's deficiency at skating. This was his Achilles heel throughout his career - a slow and little bit sloppy skating. Pospíšil even revealed in his autobiography by the way, that he was always the slowest skater in any team since childhood.
Re: CZE 3, aka Josef Horešovský - you're not the only one who was impressed by him. Horešovský debuted at OG 1968 and St. Louis Blues scouts tried to immediately lure him into NHL. He had one of the strongest shots in Europe. Back in 1972 they measured CSSR players' shots, Horešovský won the contest when his shot clocked over 164 km/h.
Other than that, Horešovský was famous, or should I say infamous, for discrepancies between league play and international play. All throughout his career, he was refered as a player lacking discipline / motivation by coaches and others. He coasted off domestic season and then got to play at Championships only on the belief that a better competition will push him to perform. It usually happened - Horešovský had mostly strong international career but a very short one. By the 1973 or 1974, coaches couldn't stand him anymore and he was done as a serious player when he was 27 y/o.
ted2019
History of Hockey
It's pretty self evident.
When one hears talk of Suchy it's about the European Orr. In the link provided upthread there is alot of talk about Suchy being a fourth forward and his creativity.
Frankly I'm surprised this is even a question really as both players are known for their offense.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Considering most of us think that center is historically the strongest position in NHL history (ESPECIALLY since we included rovers on our "centers" list), it is useful to look at the centers who came closest to making our top 60 list.
The 60th spot, was ultimately won by Neil Colville in a tiebreak vote. These were the candidates to make the runoff for the last spot:
Neil Colville
Frank Foyston
Pat Lafontaine
Joe Primeau
Jeremy Roenick
Henrik Sedin
Foyston/Lafontaine/Primeau/Roenick/Sedin should be unofficially considered this forum's 61st-65th best centers (as of 2014 of course), in no particular order.
Round 2, Vote 16 (HOH Top Centers)
Note that as this was a tiebreak round, all the above centers placed in the top 6 in the last week of Round 2 voting, so these were their rankings after the more detailed discussion phase.
(Unfortunately, the full results of the tiebreak vote were destroyed in the forum migration)
- Status
