Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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tarheelhockey

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Hainsworth 4 times led the NHL in wins, twice won the cup, 8 times was top 2 in wins.

Lu? Never was a 1st team all star, never won the cup, once in 19 years led the league in wins.

Hainsworth was inducted well before Clint Benedict and Frank Brimsek. Maybe we should read some history to find out why!

Revisionist stats-crunching re-ranking may be 21st century cool, but it seems historically hollow.

Stats aside, I've spent enough time working with primary sources from the 20s and 30s to notice a lack of special regard for Hainsworth. Even back then, people were able to make the common-sense distinction between leading the league in Ws and being the best goalie in the league. He's a lot closer to a Luongo than a Price.

Of the goalies you mentioned -- yes, Thompson and Worters and Lehman belong in this conversation. I would need to be convinced I've missed something major before I put Hainsworth in that category.
 
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Professor What

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I think goalie wins are one of the most overrated stats out there. For lack of a better way of putting it, I see them as more of a symptom since they usually reflect a guy that plays a lot and/or plays on a good team. Sure, some goalies have more of an impact on wins, but at their heart, they're a team stat. No offense meant to anyone that puts more weight on them, but I generally couldn't care less which goalie had the most wins in any given season. Hasek never led the league in wins until 2002, when he was a member of a loaded Detroit team. Does that mean he doesn't belong in the discussion as the best all time? Obviously it doesn't. Therefore, by no means does it eliminate Luongo from the discussion in this thread.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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I actually wouldn’t recommend people do this for goaltenders. The widespread availability of 1956-1983 statistics occurred 5 years after the goaltender project.

I would echo that people should be careful about taking the goalie project as gospel, although not so much because of the availability of stats but more because active goalies were massively underrated in that project. As informed historians who have a commitment to fairly comparing across eras, please do not just repeat the mistaken idea that any good starter from the '60s and '70s was better than everyone who played after 2000 because of awards/team success which are exponentially more difficult to achieve in an expanded league. It is in fact perfectly justifiable to rank Roberto Luongo ahead of the likes of Johnny Bower and Tony Esposito (I'd go so far as to argue that it is actually correct to do so).

Apparently, I'm not doing a very good job at expressing myself since it seems it's coming across as that I'm bagging on him, which I'm not trying to do. The fact of the matter is, I actually like Kiprusoff a lot. He's actually one of my favorite goalies in recent years. I just can't ride him as highly in this project as it appears that others are.

Just going to say that Kiprusoff might not make my top 220, and I'm very high on modern goalies relative to consensus here. I don't quite get the hype either, in my estimation a guy like Carey Price is easily better, and I don't see what clearly separates Kipper from contemporaries like Miller or Rinne.

I don't know, I feel like I'm missing something here...this guy was a terrific talent, and one of the few goalies (look at those names) that really handled the change over well because of how gosh darn good he was...

Given your very strong opinions on other goalies who only ever had success for one coach, I think you at the very least need to seriously grapple with the fact that Kiprusoff was never really that dominant other than when he was playing for Darryl Sutter and Sutter had the last change:

Home w/Sutter: 1.56 GAA, .939 save % (.907 exp)
Home w/o Sutter: 2.42 GAA, .913 save % (.912 exp)
Road w/Sutter: 2.54 GAA, .908 save % (.903 exp)
Road w/o Sutter: 2.85 GAA, .905 save % (.908 exp)

(That expected save percentage at the end is league average with an adjustment for goalies typically being a bit better at home than on the road)

That said, I do think Kiprusoff was a talented goalie, and it didn't help him that his team kept starting him 70+ games a year even on the wrong side of 30. I've said it before, but I think that when you take into account his workload and team context he was definitely not as good as he looked in his two-year peak on a team that knew how to shut up shop on home ice, but was also probably better than he looked in some of those down years when he was playing tired with weaker defensive support.
 

tarheelhockey

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I think goalie wins are one of the most overrated stats out there. For lack of a better way of putting it, I see them as more of a symptom since they usually reflect a guy that plays a lot and/or plays on a good team. Sure, some goalies have more of an impact on wins, but at their heart, they're a team stat. No offense meant to anyone that puts more weight on them, but I generally couldn't care less which goalie had the most wins in any given season. Hasek never led the league in wins until 2002, when he was a member of a loaded Detroit team. Does that mean he doesn't belong in the discussion as the best all time? Obviously it doesn't. Therefore, by no means does it eliminate Luongo from the discussion in this thread.

To put it in perspective, try taking this quiz.




Some of those wins leaders are pretty obvious. Others are... just really not.
 
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Michael Farkas

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they're a team stat

If it goes for wins, it goes for GAA, it goes for save%...there are major team influences to defensive play and structure...they're difficult to account for with these kind of numbers...that's why I lean towards talent evaluation, if you're (royal you) decent at that, you're less likely to get duped by fly-by-night goaltenders like Mason, Thomas, Elliott, etc.
 

quoipourquoi

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Please stop with the Luongo & Kiprusoff talk.

This project should be honoring top-200 players and that clearly includes Johnny Bower, Tiny Thompson, Roy Worters, George Hainsworth, Harry Lumley, Hugh Lehman and based on their highest level of performance: Billy Smith, Grant Fuhr, Gump Worsley & Jiri Holecek! Hands down. Let's not embarrass ourselves.

That's 10 out of 100.

How many more goalies should be considered?

We had 11 skaters drafted after 1990 on our top-100, and not a single goaltender. We can’t go through another 100 players without adding one.
 

Professor What

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If it goes for wins, it goes for GAA, it goes for save%...there are major team influences to defensive play and structure...they're difficult to account for with these kind of numbers...that's why I lean towards talent evaluation, if you're (royal you) decent at that, you're less likely to get duped by fly-by-night goaltenders like Mason, Thomas, Elliott, etc.

Which is why I pointed out that some goalies get ragged on for high GAA when they play for bad teams unfairly (and, for that matter, some get too much credit for a low one), but GAA and save percentage aren't nearly as team dependent as wins are. Yes, the team has an effect on how many chances and how high quality of chances get through, but there's still one determinant that's largely under the goalie's control: making the save on the individual shots. Some are gimmes and some are impossible, but overall, in general, a better goalie will have better stats in GAA and sv%.

Case in point: Hasek led the league in goals against average twice and in save percentage six times, while only leading the league in wins once, while Grant Fuhr never led the league in goals against average or save percentage, but twice led the league in wins (once while playing only 45 games). I think it's pretty clear that Fuhr had much better team support than Hasek, but Hasek's still level more than overrode that.

On top of that, a team's offensive output doesn't play nearly as much of a role in a goalie's GAA or sv% as it does "his" wins. Certain aspects of team play go into GAA and sv%, but literally everything goes into wins. I've been very clear during my time as a member here that stats aren't a be all, end all, but I don't think anyone can claim that they don't consider them, and the fact is, we do have to consider them, even if context is key. Sometimes, part of that context is knowing which stats to put more stock into that others (such as realizing that plus/minus doesn't mean anything like what so many make it out to be). I think pretty much everyone that's involved in this has a good grasp on taking everything relevant into consideration, even if we don't all put the same weight into various aspects.
 
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wetcoast

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Yes, Suchý is demostrably better defensively than Housley. Here's a link to get a read on Suchý's game.

I read it and there is alot of talk about his offense and creativity and also of risk taking.

In terms of the competition and circumstances of the WHD circa late 60's and early 70s doesn't sound very different than Housley in the 1980s NHL really.
 

wetcoast

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With all of the talk of Suchy, I wonder how people are considering another 2 time winner of the IIHF best Dman award in Brent Burns?

I doubt that he makes my list but I will have to take another look maybe?
 

tarheelhockey

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I have a feeling that I really missed out in not getting to know him based on the way people talk about him.

One of the reasons I like this forum as a history community... everything C58 ever said is still right here, searchable in an instant. In theory you can get to "know" him (in the internet sense) just as well as we did.
 
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Theokritos

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I read it and there is alot of talk about his offense and creativity and also of risk taking.

There is one (1) season where Suchý was criticized for taking risks. He wasn't criticized for that in the other seasons. Nor has anyone ever called him bad in his own zone, as opposed to Phil Housley. Is there any phase in Phil Housley's career where he was not bad defensively?
 
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Theokritos

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As much as I almost always disagreed with his points of view I'm sure missing Canadiens1958 in this discussion.

It's pretty much exactly 12 months since he's gone BTW.

Edit: One year, obviously.
 
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wetcoast

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There is one (1) season where Suchý was criticized for taking risks. He wasn't criticized for that in the other seasons. Nor has anyone ever called him bad in his own zone, as opposed to Phil Housley. Is there any phase in Phil Housley's career where he was not bad defensively?

The thing is that we are comparing international hockey in the late 60s and very early 70s and the rules are very conducive to a player like Suchy (who had a much shorter prime and even then didn't have the success that Hously did at 18 in the NHL).

To me it's much more impressive the jump Housley made at age 18 from us high school to the NHL and how well he did in that jump.

There were other references in the article to Suchy being a 4th forward (much like Housley).

I just don't see how Suchy gets ranked ahead of Housley as they are the same type of player.
 

wetcoast

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... Can Steven Stamkos even be kept out of this?

Pretty hard to make the case against him.

He is the top Canadian goal scorer and 2nd in points over a dozen year stretch and that's even with time missed to injuries.
 

Michael Farkas

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Given your very strong opinions on other goalies who only ever had success for one coach, I think you at the very least need to seriously grapple with the fact that Kiprusoff was never really that dominant other than when he was playing for Darryl Sutter and Sutter had the last change:

Home w/Sutter: 1.56 GAA, .939 save % (.907 exp)
Home w/o Sutter: 2.42 GAA, .913 save % (.912 exp)
Road w/Sutter: 2.54 GAA, .908 save % (.903 exp)
Road w/o Sutter: 2.85 GAA, .905 save % (.908 exp)

(That expected save percentage at the end is league average with an adjustment for goalies typically being a bit better at home than on the road)

That said, I do think Kiprusoff was a talented goalie, and it didn't help him that his team kept starting him 70+ games a year even on the wrong side of 30. I've said it before, but I think that when you take into account his workload and team context he was definitely not as good as he looked in his two-year peak on a team that knew how to shut up shop on home ice, but was also probably better than he looked in some of those down years when he was playing tired with weaker defensive support.

That first sentence mischaracterizes things in a way that's not worth going into.

I don't know what to make with the home Sutter stuff...I really only bother dive deep into the numbers like that when I have to explain a big gap between talent and stats. If a goalie is not talented and has good stats, then I check this kind of stuff. Seeing Kipper, it never crossed my mind because the numbers matched the talent. I'm assuming you're bringing this forward because there's a significant difference between what Kipper's off/on stuff is vs other goalies of the era in similar situations...?

And yes, they ran him into the ground because he was a load-bearing beam to say the least...it probably negative affected his ability to perform in the playoffs and extend his career...

in my estimation a guy like Carey Price is easily better, and I don't see what clearly separates Kipper from contemporaries like Miller or Rinne.

Carey Price is the best goalie of this generation and it may not be particularly close...

Pekka Rinne is fine...he has some holes that got filled (in a bad way) in the playoffs...but up and down, he was there throughout this generation...

Ryan Miller need not apply...not even close for me either. Miller is more like a better Cam Ward than someone that can compete with Miikka Kiprusoff...
 

Michael Farkas

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Which is why I pointed out that some goalies get ragged on for high GAA when they play for bad teams unfairly (and, for that matter, some get too much credit for a low one), but GAA and save percentage aren't nearly as team dependent as wins are. Yes, the team has an effect on how many chances and how high quality of chances get through, but there's still one determinant that's largely under the goalie's control: making the save on the individual shots. Some are gimmes and some are impossible, but overall, in general, a better goalie will have better stats in GAA and sv%.

Case in point: Hasek led the league in goals against average twice and in save percentage six times, while only leading the league in wins once, while Grant Fuhr never led the league in goals against average or save percentage, but twice led the league in wins (once while playing only 45 games). I think it's pretty clear that Fuhr had much better team support than Hasek, but Hasek's still level more than overrode that.

On top of that, a team's offensive output doesn't play nearly as much of a role in a goalie's GAA or sv% as it does "his" wins. Certain aspects of team play go into GAA and sv%, but literally everything goes into wins. I've been very clear during my time as a member here that stats aren't a be all, end all, but I don't think anyone can claim that they don't consider them, and the fact is, we do have to consider them, even if context is key. Sometimes, part of that context is knowing which stats to put more stock into that others (such as realizing that plus/minus doesn't mean anything like what so many make it out to be). I think pretty much everyone that's involved in this has a good grasp on taking everything relevant into consideration, even if we don't all put the same weight into various aspects.

Sure. (Just to say the words, this is not argumentative, it's purely conversational). But one thing to consider is that wins is gonna be the only stat that can possibly account for timeliness and quality of saves. I've said it here a thousand times, saves do not win games, bad goals lose games...and series.

You can 50 saves, load'em up in your truck, take them to the scorer's table and they'll give you absolutely nothing for them. Nothing - positive or negative - has a greater effect on a bench than a bad goal against...goals get guys excited, a big hit, maybe a fight, yada, yada, yada...but nothing has a bigger effect, and of course, it is negative, than a bad goal against or a poorly timed goal against...

Wins is in the best position (far from perfect) to account for that. The other two average outcomes. Save percentage in particular measure a very expected result (98% of seen shots are stopped these days...I heard from someone that a private company that does advanced analytics on this type of thing said that Jacob Markstrom stopped every non-tipped shot that he had a clear line of sight to this year, if I remember correctly).

Again, it's not without flaws...I don't live and die by it (or any stats, especially goaltending ones, which I find to be the least valuable on the whole)...but I get a little queasy when I see claims that some of those stats are team stats...they all are. More than any skater's stats, for me...
 

Michael Farkas

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Is it not true that over a long period of time, save percentage correlates strongly with the skill level of a goalie? It sure seems that way.

Possibly. Didn't work out for Rogie Vachon, for instance...from the expansion to the merger, Vachon was 15th in save pct. (min 100 GP). The majority of guys that are ahead of him are either less talented than him or played for the three main defensive teams during those years (Mtl, Phi, NYI) or both...so, I'm not entirely convinced...

seventies and I went through this exercise with modern goalies...the correlation between talent and save pct. it definitely exists on the whole, but isolated cases require individual review...
 

Michael Farkas

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There is one (1) season where Suchý was criticized for taking risks. He wasn't criticized for that in the other seasons. Nor has anyone ever called him bad in his own zone, as opposed to Phil Housley. Is there any phase in Phil Housley's career where he was not bad defensively?

He played wing sometimes...
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Sure. (Just to say the words, this is not argumentative, it's purely conversational). But one thing to consider is that wins is gonna be the only stat that can possibly account for timeliness and quality of saves. I've said it here a thousand times, saves do not win games, bad goals lose games...and series.

You can 50 saves, load'em up in your truck, take them to the scorer's table and they'll give you absolutely nothing for them. Nothing - positive or negative - has a greater effect on a bench than a bad goal against...goals get guys excited, a big hit, maybe a fight, yada, yada, yada...but nothing has a bigger effect, and of course, it is negative, than a bad goal against or a poorly timed goal against...

Wins is in the best position (far from perfect) to account for that. The other two average outcomes. Save percentage in particular measure a very expected result (98% of seen shots are stopped these days...I heard from someone that a private company that does advanced analytics on this type of thing said that Jacob Markstrom stopped every non-tipped shot that he had a clear line of sight to this year, if I remember correctly).

Again, it's not without flaws...I don't live and die by it (or any stats, especially goaltending ones, which I find to be the least valuable on the whole)...but I get a little queasy when I see claims that some of those stats are team stats...they all are. More than any skater's stats, for me...

Not sure how you can consider Carey Price the best of this generation (not even close) and say bad goals lose games more so than saves win games. Price gives up lots of bad goals.
 
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