Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (A Game of Shadows)

[Dennis Bonvie]

I agree, but nothing good would come out of discussing McDavid in this project. Having him ranked 122th of all-time is meaningless for the future. Just an eyesore, like Chara's ranking in the Top Defensemen project.

I guess it depends on perspective.

Many would say the whole list is meaningless.

Others might say how could people who know so much about the game and its history not list Connor McDavid as a top 200 player when they all know he is one.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I guess it depends on perspective.

Many would say the whole list is meaningless.

Others might say how could people who know so much about the game and its history not list Connor McDavid as a top 200 player when they all know he is one.

The point is to have a final result that will stand the test of time, as much as possible. Injecting McDavid is like splashing black paint on a painting.

Edit: Or to have interesting discussions, which a player like McDavid will hijack to mirror the exact conversation we're having now.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The point is to have a final result that will stand the test of time, as much as possible. Injecting McDavid is like splashing black paint on a painting.

Well, we seem to disagree here.

I never looked at it that way. You are more of a big picture guy I guess.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Looks like it’s 16 participants. So a little lower than the number expected from our pre-project polling.

Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

I have to wrap up text normalization to more thoroughly flag duplicates, but I should be ready to send it out to screening today. However, if you haven’t yet submitted a list and you have some free time, don’t let this dissuade you from doing so.

 

[ted2019]

I didn't rank McDavid out of principle: I did rank Kucherov, however.

Kucherov, along with Rinne, are two players I absolutely didn't expect to rank (but ended up ranking).

Otherwise, it's a new top220, partly based on my submissions from the top 100.

I have McDavid at #171 and Kucherov at #212.

 

[ted2019]

How many available players have 3 first team all-star berths as centers?

How many have multiple Art Ross wins and a Hart trophy?

How many have top 3 in assists 4 times?

I though accomplishments were suppose to be a large part these rankings?

Curious, did you vote on Nathan MacKinnon?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Curious, did you vote on Nathan MacKinnon?

Yep.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If you ask me, McDavid has already produced atleast as much or more high-octane hockey as Lindros did. No one gives a shit about the backend of his career.

McDavid's domination was on the quieter side though. He didn't really leave his mark on the NHL in the way that Lindros did when he arrived. Nothing really changed because of McDavid's arrival, "he's just there".

 

[Professor What]

McDavid isn't the only player that's going to move. I don't think there's any good way to set some arbitrary cut off either. It's up to each voter to figure out where they think each player falls and go accordingly, recognizing that lists like this are always going to be fluid.

 

[Theokritos]

Looks like it’s 16 participants. So a little lower than the number expected from our pre-project polling.

I hate to say it, but that's much lower than projected. 20 people voted "yes" and 18 voted "maybe" in the poll. I think 25-30 voters were a reasonable expectation. The 2018-2019 project had 32 voters and none of the positional projects were below 23. When we only had 15 voters in the Europeans project, it was basically viewed as barely viable and we only went ahead because at least we had a group dedicated to breaking some new ground, even if the voting turnout would be subpar. I'm not sure that's the case here?

 

[quoipourquoi]

I hate to say it, but that's much lower than projected. 20 people voted "yes" and 18 voted "maybe" in the poll. I think 25-30 voters were a reasonable expectation. The 2018-2019 project had 32 voters and none of the positional projects were below 23. When we only had 15 voters in the Europeans project, it was basically viewed as barely viable and we only went ahead because at least we had a group dedicated to breaking some new ground, even if the voting turnout would be subpar. I'm not sure that's the case here?

I’m holding out hope based on the fact that the preliminary thread only really seemed to die down when we hit the original deadline. I think the discussions could be pretty lively, even if the voting panel is a little on the small side. No doubt that with only 16 ballots, there’s going to be more power in each ballot cast, which could lead to some volatility with greater strength in punitive voting. We could counter that with 5-4-3-2-1 balloting, but I don’t know that that would necessarily give us a better read of the room.

Even if we only run into a handful of players that turn heads and make us re-think previously held assessments, I can think of worse ways to spend my next few months. It’s like an investment into a wave of more diverse discussions on HOH (that aren’t centered around the same great players). I definitely think expectations should be lowered for the final list itself, but my expectations for the discussion rounds remain high.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Gotta say I’m impressed by the near perfect split of submissions with “Alex Ovechkin” and “Alexander Ovechkin”.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Every old-time hockey nickname is generating a false flag for a unique player, so once I have the normalized list of players submitted, would the group be okay with me posting an alphabetical list of player names (like we did last project) just in case I mistakenly have a player’s ballots split across a Harry and a Harold?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Gotta say I’m impressed by the near perfect split of submissions with “Alex Ovechkin” and “Alexander Ovechkin”.

I had this on deliberation for a second or two

 

[rmartin65]

I didn't submit a list, so, by all means, feel free to discard this opinion, but-

If the list is the top-200 players, then it needs to be the top 200 players, regardless of where they are in their career. If what they have done to-date is worth the entry, then it shouldn't matter how much more they are going to rise (or fall) in the next iteration of the list. I definitely don't advocate giving players credit for things that may happen in the future, but don't punish a player because he doesn't mean some arbitrary amount of games/seasons/whatever.

There are plenty of things to knock McDavid for- lack of longevity, certainly, lack of play-off success, and lack of all-around play come to mind- but there is no doubt to me that, if he hung up the skates tomorrow, we would all look at his resume and think he is a top-200 player of all time.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Every old-time hockey nickname is generating a false flag for a unique player, so once I have the normalized list of players submitted, would the group be okay with me posting an alphabetical list of player names (like we did last project) just in case I mistakenly have a player’s ballots split across a Harry and a Harold?

That definitely makes sense.

 

[MXD]

Gotta say I’m impressed by the near perfect split of submissions with “Alex Ovechkin” and “Alexander Ovechkin”.

Sorry for Rogatien

 

[Professor What]

Gotta say I’m impressed by the near perfect split of submissions with “Alex Ovechkin” and “Alexander Ovechkin”.

I had this on deliberation for a second or two

As did I, actually.

 

[quoipourquoi]

If I could get some extra eyes on this for potential duplicates, it would be much appreciated. Clean-up went pretty well, and I'll be reaching out to a few of you to confirm a few things.


Adam Oates
Al MacInnis
Alec Connell
Alex Delvecchio
Alex Ovechkin
Alex Pietrangelo
Alexander Maltsev
Alexander Mogilny
Alexander Ragulin
Alexander Yakushev
Alexander Yeryomenko
Alexei Kasatonov
Alf Smith
Allan Stanley
Anatoli Firsov
Andy Bathgate
Anze Kopitar
Art Coulter
Art Duncan
Art Ross
Aurele Joliat
Babe Dye
Babe Siebert
Bernie Federko
Bernie Geoffrion
Bernie Morris
Bernie Parent
Bert Olmstead
Bill Barber
Bill Cook
Bill Cowley
Bill Durnan
Bill Gadsby
Bill Quackenbush
Bill White
Billy Smith
Bob Gainey
Bobby Clarke
Bobby Hull
Bobby Orr
Boris Mikhailov
Borje Salming
Brad Marchand
Brad McCrimmon
Brad Park
Brendan Shanahan
Brent Burns
Brett Hull
Brian Leetch
Brian Propp
Bryan Hextall
Bryan Trottier
Busher Jackson
Butch Bouchard
Cam Neely
Carey Price
Carl Brewer
Cecil Dillon
Charlie Conacher
Charlie Gardiner
Charlie Hodge
Ching Johnson
Chris Chelios
Chris Pronger
Chuck Rayner
Claude Giroux
Claude Provost
Clint Benedict
Connor McDavid
Corey Perry
Craig Ramsay
Curtis Joseph
Cy Denneny
Cyclone Taylor
Dale Hawerchuk
Dan Bain
Daniel Alfredsson
Daniel Sedin
Darryl Sittler
Dave Andreychuk
Dave Keon
Dave Kerr
Denis Potvin
Denis Savard
Dickie Moore
Didier Pitre
Dit Clapper
Dominik Hasek
Doug Bentley
Doug Gilmour
Doug Harvey
Doug Wilson
Drew Doughty
Duke Keats
Duncan Keith
Earl Seibert
Ebbie Goodfellow
Ed Belfour
Eddie Gerard
Eddie Giacomin
Eddie Shore
Elmer Lach
Eric Lindros
Erik Karlsson
Evgeni Malkin
Fern Flaman
Frank Boucher
Frank Brimsek
Frank Foyston
Frank Fredrickson
Frank Mahovlich
Frank McGee
Frank Nighbor
Frank Patrick
Frantisek Pospisil
Gary Suter
George Armstrong
George Hainsworth
George Hay
Georges Boucher
Georges Vezina
Gilbert Perreault
Glenn Hall
Gordie Drillon
Gordie Howe
Grant Fuhr
Gump Worsley
Guy Carbonneau
Guy Lafleur
Guy Lapointe
Hap Holmes
Harry Cameron
Harry Howell
Harry Lumley
Harry Trihey
Harvey Pulford
Helmuts Balderis
Henri Richard
Henrik Lundqvist
Henrik Sedin
Henrik Zetterberg
Herb Gardiner
Hod Stuart
Hooley Smith
Howie Morenz
Hugh Lehman
Igor Larionov
Ilya Kovalchuk
Jack Darragh
Jack Stewart
Jack Walker
Jacques Laperriere
Jacques Lemaire
Jacques Plante
Jamie Benn
Jan Suchy
Jari Kurri
Jarome Iginla
Jaromir Jagr
JC Tremblay
Jean Beliveau
Jean Pronovost
Jean Ratelle
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Jeremy Roenick
Jimmy Thomson
Jiri Holecek
Jiri Holik
Joe Malone
Joe Mullen
Joe Nieuwendyk
Joe Primeau
Joe Sakic
Joe Simpson
Joe Thornton
John LeClair
John Ross Roach
John Tavares
John Vanbiesbrouck
Johnny Bower
Johnny Bucyk
Jonathan Quick
Jonathan Toews
Ken Dryden
Ken Reardon
King Clancy
Kirk Muller
Lanny McDonald
Larry Murphy
Larry Robinson
Lennart Svedberg
Lester Patrick
Lionel Conacher
Luc Robitaille
Marcel Dionne
Marcel Pronovost
Marian Hossa
Mario Lemieux
Mark Howe
Mark Messier
Mark Recchi
Markus Naslund
Martin Brodeur
Martin St. Louis
Marty Barry
Mats Sundin
Maurice Richard
Max Bentley
Michel Goulet
Mickey MacKay
Miikka Kiprusoff
Mike Bossy
Mike Gartner
Mike Grant
Mike Liut
Mike Modano
Milan Novy
Milt Schmidt
Moose Johnson
Nathan MacKinnon
Neil Colville
Nels Stewart
Newsy Lalonde
Nicklas Backstrom
Nicklas Lidstrom
Nikita Kucherov
Nikolai Sologubov
Norm Ullman
Paddy Moran
Pat LaFontaine
Pat Stapleton
Patrice Bergeron
Patrick Kane
Patrick Roy
Patrik Elias
Paul Coffey
Paul Kariya
Paul Thompson
Pavel Bure
Pavel Datsyuk
Pekka Rinne
Percy LeSueur
Peter Forsberg
Peter Stastny
Phil Esposito
Phil Housley
Pierre Pilote
Pierre Turgeon
PK Subban
Punch Broadbent
Ray Bourque
Red Kelly
Reg Noble
Rick Martin
Rick Middleton
Rob Blake
Roberto Luongo
Rod Brind'Amour
Rod Gilbert
Rod Langway
Rogie Vachon
Ron Francis
Roy Conacher
Roy Worters
Russell Bowie
Ryan Getzlaf
Ryan Suter
Scott Niedermayer
Scott Stevens
Serge Savard
Sergei Bobrovsky
Sergei Fedorov
Sergei Makarov
Sergei Mozyakin
Sergei Zubov
Seth Martin
Shea Weber
Sid Abel
Sidney Crosby
Sprague Cleghorn
Stan Mikita
Steve Larmer
Steve Yzerman
Steven Stamkos
Sven Tumba
Sweeney Schriner
Syd Howe
Syl Apps
Sylvio Mantha
Ted Kennedy
Ted Lindsay
Teemu Selanne
Terry Sawchuk
Theoren Fleury
Tim Horton
Tim Thomas
Tiny Thompson
Toe Blake
Tom Barrasso
Tom Johnson
Tom Paton
Tommy Dunderdale
Tommy Phillips
Tony Esposito
Turk Broda
Tuukka Rask
Vaclav Nedomansky
Valeri Kharlamov
Valeri Vasiliev
Viacheslav Fetisov
Victor Hedman
Vincent Damphousse
Vladimir Dzurilla
Vladimir Krutov
Vladimir Martinec
Vladimir Petrov
Vladislav Tretiak
Vsevolod Bobrov
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Wayne Gretzky
Woody Dumart
Yvan Cournoyer
Zdeno Chara

 

[MXD]

No duplicate noticed.
But I certainly want to make one or two changes to my list now (I did forget at least one player).
Best unranked player would be, on top of my head Johnny Gottselig? Cooney Weiland?

 

[quoipourquoi]

I’ve reached out to everyone that had a list flagged for too many players, too few players, or what may have been an unintentional omission (a player who appeared on 15/16 lists).

Once I have confirmation, we’ll get everything screened for subjectivity and move to the next step. January 4th might be tough, but January 11th should be doable.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I’ve reached out to everyone that had a list flagged for too many players, too few players, or what may have been an unintentional omission (a player who appeared on 15/16 lists).

Once I have confirmation, we’ll get everything screened for subjectivity and move to the next step. January 4th might be tough, but January 11th should be doable.

No rush. I'd rather wait a week and maybe even get a couple more lists if possible

 

[DitchMarner]

Kirk Muller, eh? Interesting...

Not sure he's that far ahead of Trevor Linden.

 

[quoipourquoi]

No rush. I'd rather wait a week and maybe even get a couple more lists if possible

Good news is we’re up to 17 now. seventieslord is joining all of the fun!

 

[ted2019]

I’ve reached out to everyone that had a list flagged for too many players, too few players, or what may have been an unintentional omission (a player who appeared on 15/16 lists).

Once I have confirmation, we’ll get everything screened for subjectivity and move to the next step. January 4th might be tough, but January 11th should be doable.

Sorry, that I forgot that player that was on my spreadsheet.