Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[VMBM]

YouTube footage also shows the quality of the opposition.

And it also shows how Firsov compares to his teammates, including "'70s players" like Kharlamov (already ranked in this project), Mikhailov, Maltsev, i.e. the footage from 1969-71... And it all looks pretty good for him imo, since he was WHC All-Star LW in 1969-71 over Kharlamov, for example.
Maybe at some point you can state the reasons why you think that Firsov would have struggled against NHL opposition more than, say, Kharlamov did (if that is your main problem with Firsov, that is).

 

[Canadiens1958]

And it also shows how Firsov compares to his teammates, including "'70s players" like Kharlamov (already ranked in this project), Mikhailov, Maltsev, i.e. the footage from 1969-71... And it all looks pretty good for him imo, since he was WHC All-Star LW in 1969-71 over Kharlamov, for example.
Maybe at some point you can state the reasons why you think that Firsov would have struggled against NHL opposition more than, say, Kharlamov did (if that is your main problem with Firsov, that is).

Simply Firsov never played against NHL competition.

Even future NHLers, best North American forward Firsov faced for a few years was Fran Huck.

You cannot compare Fran Huck to the NHL players Kharlamov, Maltsev, Mikhailov faced starting,in 1972.

1965 facing Jacques Plante, Firsov did not impress. Likewise in other trips to North America. Smaller NHL rinks may have been a factor.

 

[VMBM]

Simply Firsov never played against NHL competition.

Even future NHLers, best North American forward Firsov faced for a few years was Fran Huck.

You cannot compare Fran Huck to the NHL players Kharlamov, Maltsev, Mikhailov faced starting,in 1972.

1965 facing Jacques Plante, Firsov did not impress. Likewise in other trips to North America. Smaller NHL rinks may have been a factor.

Did we have anything else than your (subjective) word for it? According to Chidlovski's site, he scored 26 goals in 35 games against various Canadian teams and was also a playmaker, not just goal-scorer, so it's slightly hard for me to believe that he never impressed in his 'trips'. Team CCCP Players Info: Anatoly FIRSOV (Анатолий ФИРСОВ)

And who has compared Fran Huck to anybody? But the idea that Soviet hockey players suddenly became much better in 1972 is ridiculous imo. Firsov was still considered better than Kharlamov at least by the media at the World Championships until 1971.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Did we have anything else than your (subjective) word for it? According to Chidlovski's site, he scored 26 goals in 35 games against various Canadian teams and was also a playmaker, not just goal-scorer, so it's slightly hard for me to believe that he never impressed in his 'trips'. Team CCCP Players Info: Anatoly FIRSOV (Анатолий ФИРСОВ)

And who has compared Fran Huck to anybody? But the idea that Soviet hockey players suddenly became much better in 1972 is ridiculous imo. Firsov was still considered better than Kharlamov at least by the media at the World Championships until 1971.

Does Chidlovski distinguish between playing Canadian junior and senior(various) teams compared to NHL teams?

How many European media actually saw games featuring NHL elite players before 1972?

 

[Ben Grimm]

Does Chidlovski distinguish between playing Canadian junior and senior(various) teams compared to NHL teams? How many European media actually saw games featuring NHL elite players before 1972?

Agreed. As you say what Canadian teams did they play and how many European media saw NHL elite players before 1972. Chidlovski's opinion is subjective also and his having a website shouldn't give him greater validity. The written word and especially websites have a powerful effect on us, but we forget they're just guys like us with an opinion.

 

[VMBM]

Does Chidlovski distinguish between playing Canadian junior and senior(various) teams compared to NHL teams?

How many European media actually saw games featuring NHL elite players before 1972?

How many of the Soviets who played against Team Canada in 1972 crumbled?

I know that the Soviets themselves weren't happy with Vladimir Vikulov's performance, and apparently thus he did not get many chances to play on the Soviet national team after that, even though he was only 25-26 back then. But that's basically one Soviet star player who did not perform very well. So why would a superstar like Firsov fail? He was not considered soft (like Vikulov), and unlike almost all of his '60s teammates, he (super)starred also in the 1970s (Starshinov was the other forward, but clearly less impressive). To me it's easy to give him the benefit of a doubt, but, heh heh, I can see that it's an issue for some other people.

 

[VMBM]

Agreed. As you say what Canadian teams did they play and how many European media saw NHL elite players before 1972. Chidlovski's opinion is subjective also and his having a website shouldn't give him greater validity. The written word and especially websites have a powerful effect on us, but we forget they're just guys like us with an opinion.

What ******* opinion?

The "26 goals in 35 games" stat isn't 100 % reliable, but it isn't a "subjective opinion" at all...

 

[Canadiens1958]

How many of the Soviets who played against Team Canada in 1972 crumbled?

I know that the Soviets themselves weren't happy with Vladimir Vikulov's performance, and apparently thus he did not get many chances to play on the Soviet national team after that, even though he was only 25-26 back then. But that's basically one Soviet star player who did not perform very well. So why would a superstar like Firsov fail? He was not considered soft (like Vikulov), and unlike almost all of his '60s teammates, he (super)starred also in the 1970s (Starshinov was the other forward, but clearly less impressive). To me it's easy to give him the benefit of a doubt, but, heh heh, I can see that it's an issue for some other people.

Project is not based on projection.

Regardless.Soviets made a decision that regardless of the reason, Firsov was not getting a chance to fail against Canada in 1972.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Guess we have a pretty good idea of why Firsov hasn't come up for vote yet.

 

[VMBM]

Project is not based on projection.

Regardless.Soviets made a decision that regardless of the reason, Firsov was not getting a chance to fail against Canada in 1972.

Yeah, I'm sure it was especially Bobrov's main concern ("We cannot give Firsov a chance to fail"). Knowing the relationship between the two, Bobrov would have rather hated to see him succeed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yeah, I'm sure it was especially Bobrov's main concern ("We cannot give Firsov a chance to fail"). Knowing the relationship between the two, Bobrov would have rather hated to see him succeed.

Bobrov chose players that had been successful playing the NA rules adopted by the IIHF for the fall of 1969.

Soviets complaining about strength of junior opposition:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Ironically Memorial Cup Champion Junior Canadiens beat the Soviets 9-3 days later:

Ottawa Citizen - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Firsov did not play. He would not have made a difference,

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bobrov chose players that had been successful playing the NA rules adopted by the IIHF for the fall of 1969.

Soviets complaining about strength of junior opposition:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Ironically Memorial Cup Champion Junior Canadiens beat the Soviets 9-3 days later:

Ottawa Citizen - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Firsov did not play. He would not have made a difference,

Given that Firsov led the IIHF World Championships in both goals and points, and was voted best forward of the tournament, as late as 1971, he would be one of those players who was successful under the post-1969 rules.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Given that Firsov led the IIHF World Championships in both goals and points, and was voted best forward of the tournament, as late as 1971, he would be one of those players who was successful under the post-1969 rules.

Except 1970 and 1971 the Soviets did not face NA pros in the IIHF World Championships. Actually from 1970-1977 Canada did not go to the worlds.

1970 World Ice Hockey Championships - Wikipedia

Soviets reneged on an agreement to face quality opposition. So as stated, Firsov's efforts were not against quality NA players.

 

[Theokritos]

Except 1970 and 1971 the Soviets did not face NA pros in the IIHF World Championships.

Actually from 1970-1977 Canada did not go to the worlds.

Your claim was that "Bobrov chose players that had been successful playing the NA rules adopted by the IIHF for the fall of 1969", ergo he didn't choose Firsov.

Then it's pointed out that Firsov had been successful playing under those rules.

Your counter? Bringing up that Firsov did not face NA pros. Well, the same is true for all the players Bobrov decided to pick for the Summit Series. So...

I've seen people move around the goal post. But moving it around in a manner that defeats your own original argument? That's a new one. I'm almost impressed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Your claim was that "Bobrov chose players that had been successful playing the NA rules adopted by the IIHF for the fall of 1969", ergo he didn't choose Firsov.

Then it's pointed out that Firsov had been successful playing under those rules.

Your counter? Bringing up that Firsov did not face NA pros. Well, the same is true for all the players Bobrov decided to pick for the Summit Series. So...

I've seen people move around the goal post. But moving it around in a manner that defeats your own original argument? That's a new one. I'm almost impressed.

It was clearly stated that Firsov missed the 1969 game vs the Junior Canadians which featured quality NHL first and second year pros. These pros and the juniors - Gilbert Perreault, Richard Martin, Bobby Lalonde, only knew the NA rules. But Firsov unlike other Soviets who played against the 1969 Memorial Cup Champions, was held-out. Team was coached by Anatoli Tarasov, not Bobrov.

1970 IIHF World Championships were held under the 1969 IIHF rules but did not include Canada and the USA. 1971 included a weak USA team that was last and was relegated. So at best Firsov showed he could play 1969 IIHF rules against Europeans not Canadian pros like in the 1972 Summit Series.

The goal posts were never moved, facts were presented in a fashion that did not sit well with certain views.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Your claim was that "Bobrov chose players that had been successful playing the NA rules adopted by the IIHF for the fall of 1969", ergo he didn't choose Firsov.

Then it's pointed out that Firsov had been successful playing under those rules.

Your counter? Bringing up that Firsov did not face NA pros. Well, the same is true for all the players Bobrov decided to pick for the Summit Series. So...

I've seen people move around the goal post. But moving it around in a manner that defeats your own original argument? That's a new one. I'm almost impressed.

1969 game against the Memorial Champion Junior Canadiens - some were first year pros, included: Tretiak, Maltsev, Petrov, Kharlamov, Ragulin, Gusev, Vikulov, Liapkin, Solodukhin, and others.

So contrary to your misstatement Bobrov picked a fair number of the 1969 Canadian Tour players who faced pros.

 

[VMBM]

Bobrov chose players that had been successful playing the NA rules adopted by the IIHF for the fall of 1969.

Soviets complaining about strength of junior opposition:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Ironically Memorial Cup Champion Junior Canadiens beat the Soviets 9-3 days later:

Ottawa Citizen - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

Firsov did not play. He would not have made a difference,

And if Firsov had played in the game vs Junior Canadiens, what would you say then? "Look how poorly the Soviets did with Firsov" or...? It could just as well be speculated that with Firsov, the team would have done a little bit better. Who the hell knows?

Anyhoo, it's interesting that you seemingly claim to know the coaches' motives in every situation. FYI, Bobrov had not chosen Firsov to Team USSR for the 1972 World Championship either, and it was held a few months before the 1972 Summit Series; what was his motive then? It can't be anything to do with Canada, let alone NHL professionals, since they did not participate. It is known that Firsov was a Tarasov loyalist and he had critisized the change of coaches (national team) publicly. Furthermore, by the fall of 1972, Firsov was 31 and very likely past his prime.

 

[Canadiens1958]

And if Firsov had played in the game vs Junior Canadiens, what would you say then? "Look how poorly the Soviets did with Firsov" or...? It could be just as well speculated that with Firsov, the team would have done a little bit better. Who the hell knows?

Anyhoo, it's interesting that you seemingly claim to know the coaches' motives in every situation. FYI, Bobrov had not chosen Firsov to Team USSR for the 1972 World Championship either, and it was held a few months before the 1972 Summit Series; what was his motive then? It can't be anything to do with Canada, let alone NHL professionals, since they did not participate. It is known that Firsov was a Tarasov loyalist and he had critisized the change of coaches (national team) publicly.

First, I am not going to indulge hypotheticals or conspiracy theories about roster selections.

Firsov did not dress for other games of the eight games that comprised the Canadian Tour. Tarasov was the coach. Decision speaks for itself.

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

1969 Soviet Tour, with or without Firsov, the Soviets lost four games out of eight. Worst Canada tour ever. Offensive forecheck-new rules gave them problems.

From the write-ups in newspapers, the team was loaded with Tarasov players, chosen in 1972 by Bobrov despite claims to the contrary for the World's and the Summit Series. Seems that hockey decisions prevailed. Even if Firsov was a Tarasov loyalist he did not influence the other players nor was Tarasov shy about benching Firsov in 1969, long before Bobrov was named as the 1972 Summit Series or National team coach.

 

[Theokritos]

It was clearly stated that Firsov missed the 1969 game vs the Junior Canadians which featured quality NHL first and second year pros.

1969 game against the Memorial Champion Junior Canadiens - some were first year pros, included: Tretiak, Maltsev, Petrov, Kharlamov, Ragulin, Gusev, Vikulov, Liapkin, Solodukhin, and others.

So contrary to your misstatement Bobrov picked a fair number of the 1969 Canadian Tour players who faced pros.

Unfortunately you just keep defeating your own original claim, which was:

Bobrov chose players that had been successful playing the NA rules adopted by the IIHF for the fall of 1969.

If the Soviets (without Firsov) were defeated 2-9 by the Junior Canadiens, then how exactly did Bobrov chose players "that had been successful playing the NA rules" when he chose Maltsev, Petrov, Kharlamov etc instead of Firsov?

First, I am not going to indulge hypotheticals or conspiracy theories about roster selections.

The only one indulging hypotheticals is you. See here:

Firsov did not play. He would not have made a difference,

Seems that hockey decisions prevailed.

In reality you have no insight into the coaching and line-up decisions by Tarasov and Chernyshov in 1969, despite of making claims like these:

Decision speaks for itself.

...nor was Tarasov shy about benching Firsov in 1969.

One of the few statements on your part that actually has merits is this one:

1969 Soviet Tour, with or without Firsov, the Soviets lost four games out of eight. Worst Canada tour ever. Offensive forecheck-new rules gave them problems.

No doubt the Soviets struggled when they first played under the new rules against quality opposition long used to those rules.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Unfortunately you just keep defeating your own original claim, which was:

​

If the Soviets (without Firsov) were defeated 2-9 by the Junior Canadiens, then how exactly did Bobrov chose players "that had been successful playing the NA rules" when he chose Maltsev, Petrov, Kharlamov etc instead of Firsov?





The only one indulging hypotheticals is you. See here:




In reality you have no insight into the coaching and line-up decisions by Tarasov and Chernyshov in 1969, despite of making claims like these:




One of the few statements on your part that actually has merits is this one:



No doubt the Soviets struggled when they first played under the new rules against quality opposition long used to those rules.

Tarasov and Bobrov had a history of making successful decisions based on solid hockey criteria. +/-, and other internal evaluations. Tarasov had a history of experimenting. Example, using very young goalies on the 1969 tour.

1969-70 Canadian Nationals featured past - Billy Harris, Brian Conacher, and future NHL pros Chuck Lefley, Bill Heindl, Wayne Stephenson, amongst the pros on their roster.

So the Soviets had a sufficient sample space to evaluate their players. Contrary to your false assertion of zero players,Bobrov loaded the 1972 Summit Series team with players who toured Canada in 1969 including old Tarasov players, Ragulin, Starshinov and others.

Your positions have two characteristics. Deny without a counter argument. Ignore actual substantiated numbers that are counter-balances to your false allegations. The five games against the Canadian National suddenly and conveniently disappear. Focus shifts to one game vs the Junior Canadiens.

Show how well Firsov did against the 1969 Canadian pros as defined per agreements if you can.

 

[Theokritos]

Your positions have two characteristics. Deny without a counter argument.

You made factually wrong respectively contradictory statements. To disprove them it's not necessary to provide a counter argument. All I needed to do was to cite the facts that disprove you and point out why your claims are contradictory, which I did. That is still lost on you.

Ignore actual substantiated numbers that are counter-balances to your false allegations.

No false allegations were made on my part. Instead I pointed out the logical and factual inconsistencies of your claims.

The five games against the Canadian National suddenly and conveniently disappear. Focus shifts to one game vs the Junior Canadiens.

You were the one who brought this particular game up two times to emphasize that the Soviets faced first and second year NHL level pros at this occasion. If you want to blame anyone of focusing on the Junior Canadiens game, blame yourself.

Show how well Firsov did against the 1969 Canadian pros as defined per agreements if you can.

Which agreements?

Also, there is one thing you don't grasp. If someone makes a logically flawed/wrong statement in favor of Firsov, I will point out that it is logically flawed/wrong. That doesn't tell you anything about my own stance on Firsov. Your view seems to be: If A makes an argument against Firsov and B criticizes that argument, then B is surely trying to make a case for Firsov. That view is false. IMO there are certainly arguments that can be made (and in fact often have been made) against Firsov's case to rank here or there on the top 100 list. I will try to write something on that topic later, when I'm done refuting the flawed arguments brought up so far.

Contrary to your false assertion of zero players,Bobrov loaded the 1972 Summit Series team with players who toured Canada in 1969 including old Tarasov players, Ragulin, Starshinov and others.

Contrary to your false assertion, none of the players Bobrov picked had played any more successfully under NA rules from 1969-1972 than Firsov.

1969-70 Canadian Nationals featured past - Billy Harris, Brian Conacher, and future NHL pros Chuck Lefley, Bill Heindl, Wayne Stephenson, amongst the pros on their roster.

No-one is denying that. I will even add something you have overlooked so far: the 1969-1970 Canadian national team not only faced the Soviets on their Canada tour in December 1969, in fact the Canadians themselves had toured the USSR earlier on, in autumn 1969. That was the first taste the Soviets got of Canadian pro-calibre players employing the aggressive NA forecheck.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You made factually wrong respectively contradictory statements. To disprove them it's not necessary to provide a counter argument. All I needed to do was to cite the facts that disprove you and point out why your claims are contradictory, which I did. That is still lost on you.



No false allegations were made on my part. Instead I pointed out the logical and factual inconsistencies of your claims.



You were the one who brought this particular game up two times to emphasize that the Soviets faced first and second year NHL level pros at this occasion. If you want to blame anyone of focusing on the Junior Canadiens game, blame yourself.



Which agreements?

Also, there is one thing you don't grasp. If someone makes a logically flawed/wrong statement in favor of Firsov, I will point out that it is logically flawed/wrong. That doesn't tell you anything about my own stance on Firsov. Your view seems to be: If A makes an argument against Firsov and B criticizes that argument, then B is surely trying to make a case for Firsov. That view is false. IMO there are certainly arguments that can be made (and in fact often have been made) against Firsov's case to rank here or there on the top 100 list. I will try to write something on that topic later, when I'm done refuting the flawed arguments brought up so far.



Contrary to your false assertion, none of the players Bobrov picked had played any more successfully under NA rules from 1969-1972 than Firsov.



No-one is denying that. I will even add something you have overlooked so far: the 1969-1970 Canadian national team not only faced the Soviets on their Canada tour in December 1969, in fact the Canadians themselves had toured the USSR earlier on, in autumn 1969. That was the first taste the Soviets got of Canadian pro-calibre players employing the aggressive NA forecheck.

As usual you contradict yourself given enough time and opportunity.

First the use of the Junior Canadiens alumni game.

In dispute at that time was the relationship between the pros and NHL teams. Canadian National Team players even though former or future pros had contracted to the program for the season and could not be called-up to the NHL. The first and second year pros like the JUNIOR Canadiens used, were not contracted to the Canadian National Team, so they could play in the NHL AND then be loaned to the National Team for the worlds.

Yes the CanadianNationals had toured the USSR earlier. You overlook that USSR rinks were international dimensions. 1970 Worlds were scheduled for Montreal and Winnipeg. Smaller NHL dimensions and the Soviets saw the difference(lost four games) in performance and which individual players were impacted. 1972 Summit Series was split between NHL and International sized rinks. Bobrov seems to have chosen his team accordingly. Including appropriate 1969 participants which you claimed,falsely that he never chose. The World's results from 1970-72 did not factor in since they were attained on larger International rinks.

 

[Theokritos]

As usual you contradict yourself given enough time and opportunity.

That's pretty rich. I've pointed out where and how you have contradicted yourself. You on the other hand have yet to demonstrate any contradiction on my part. Consider this an invitation to do deliver that demonstration. I'm all ears.

First the use of the Junior Canadiens alumni game.

In dispute at that time was the relationship between the pros and NHL teams. Canadian National Team players even though former or future pros had contracted to the program for the season and could not be called-up to the NHL. The first and second year pros like the JUNIOR Canadiens used, were not contracted to the Canadian National Team, so they could play in the NHL AND then be loaned to the National Team for the worlds.

That isn't a counter point to anything I've said. But feel free to continue moving the goal post back and forth and switching from one issue to the other. The smoke and mirrors approach doesn't work, but at least it's somewhat entertaining.

Yes the CanadianNationals had toured the USSR earlier. You overlook that USSR rinks were international dimensions. 1970 Worlds were scheduled for Montreal and Winnipeg. Smaller NHL dimensions and the Soviets saw the difference(lost four games) in performance and which individual players were impacted. 1972 Summit Series was split between NHL and International sized rinks. Bobrov seems to have chosen his team accordingly. Including appropriate 1969 participants which you claimed,falsely that he never chose.

Earlier you accused others of using hypotheticals. There you go.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That's pretty rich. I've pointed out where and how you have contradicted yourself. You on the other hand have yet to demonstrate any contradiction on my part. Consider this an invitation to do deliver that demonstration. I'm all ears.



That isn't a counter point to anything I've said. But feel free to continue moving the goal post back and forth and switching from one issue to the other. The smoke and mirrors approach doesn't work, but at least it's somewhat entertaining.



Earlier you accused others of using hypotheticals. There you go.

Recognizing and understanding a traditional evaluation process is not hypotheticals.

You seem to be trying to isolate everything to one game or event(tournament) which is not my intent or reflective of a selection process.

Any worthwhile evaluation process includes adapting to the opposition strategies - but this is the evil moving the goalposts that you imagine. Soviets includig Bobrov did a great job of selecting their 1972 Summit Series roster. Only variable they did not account for was how NHL pros at the elite level would adapt to the larger International rink.

Enjoy the last word.

 

[Tweed]

Good list guys. "Cyclone" Taylor > Ron Francis