Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

[Midnight Judges]

Maybe next time there's a list, you should participate and not just complain about things?

I wanted to, but it wasn't good timing. Life got in the way.

 

[Fantomas]

What is the argument for Jagr over Ovechkin? I figured Ovy's big run would help him overtake Jagr, who constantly shat the bed in the playoffs after winning two rings on the back of other players.

 

[bobholly39]

What is the argument for Jagr over Ovechkin? I figured Ovy's big run would help him overtake Jagr, who constantly shat the bed in the playoffs after winning two rings on the back of other players.

Their playoff record arent that far apart. Ovechkin has the mvp run - which is great and important - that Jagr lacks but Jagr has more outside of it. It evens out or close.

Jagrs regular season resume is better. Longer (Ovi can overtake him with more elite seasons but he hasnt yet) and i also think his actual peak is better too.

Its not a huge gap but to me i clearly had Jagr ahead.

 

[Fantomas]

Their playoff record arent that far apart. Ovechkin has the mvp run - which is great and important - that Jagr lacks but Jagr has more outside of it. It evens out or close.

Jagrs regular season resume is better. Longer (Ovi can overtake him with more elite seasons but he hasnt yet) and i also think his actual peak is better too.

Its not a huge gap but to me i clearly had Jagr ahead.

Maybe a couple more all-star seasons by Ovechkin will do it. Still hard to escape the fact that Ovechkin has carried his team to the cup while Jagr has not.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Give me Ovechkin over Jagr, now that he has his signature Cup, something Jagr never managed. I do think 8's last Hart was very weak, because A, Sid got hurt on a freak play and was clearly the most dominant player in hockey in 2012-13 and B, because it was a shortened season. Still, he's got 2 very strong Hart wins, which is more than Jagr. And Ovechkin can at least lay claim to best goal scorer of this era, and IMO, the 2nd best in history.

Plus Ovechkin could say he gave Crosby a run for his money as best player on the planet and one could argue he was slightly better than Sid 2007-2010....at least as far as regular seasons go.

But hey, what's this?!? A Pens/Crosby fan willing to admit that!

Merry Christmas to everyone btw!

 

[sr edler]

What is the argument for Jagr over Ovechkin?

That he was a more well-rounded player offensively and not as much of a one-trick pony, is one thing. He didn’t have to reinvent himself as a post-peak Brett Hull (with better skating) type of player after he fell off from his 3 year peak, for instance.

I figured Ovy's big run would help him overtake Jagr, who constantly shat the bed in the playoffs after winning two rings on the back of other players.

Jagr obviously didn’t shit the bed in the playoffs anymore than Ovechkin did. It’s amazing how fast people forget Ovechkin played on teams that won 3 Presidents’ Trophies but couldn’t battle themselves out of the 2nd round, twice losing 3-1 series leads, during a 10 year period. That obviously wasn’t only on Ovechkin, but also on his teammates, but we can’t pretend he just wasn’t on all those teams and the leader/best player on those teams.

Still hard to escape the fact that Ovechkin has carried his team to the cup while Jagr has not.

Ahah, the new definition of "carrying your team to the Cup" is getting firmly outscored and outplayed by your center linemate? Good to know, because I like to stay updated on all things hockey.

 

[BenchBrawl]

So I wanted to cancel my subscription to the New York Times, which turned out to be useless in researching Bill Cook, and they don't even let you cancel it quickly online.You need to start a chat with some ''technical assistant'', which is a salesperson in disguise trying to change your mind and throwing a bunch of different subscription offers at you and wasting your time.After they insisted for about 5-10 minutes they finally cancelled it.

This is the last time I ever subscribe to the NYT or to any newspaper using similar shady practices.I am disgusted and will make sure to speak against this journal any opportunity I get from now on.

 

[wetcoast]

What is the argument for Jagr over Ovechkin? I figured Ovy's big run would help him overtake Jagr, who constantly shat the bed in the playoffs after winning two rings on the back of other players.

3 things here

1) Ovi's big run wasn't as big as the Conn smythe suggests

2) Jagr being a slug in the playoffs is a huge exaggeration around these parts.

He isn't elite in the playoffs, for a top 100 player but there are plenty of guys that will make this list with worse resumes in the playoffs.

3) Jagr had alot more on Ovi than just one big run separating them.

 

[wetcoast]

Maybe a couple more all-star seasons by Ovechkin will do it. Still hard to escape the fact that Ovechkin has carried his team to the cup while Jagr has not.

Did you even watch the SC playoffs last year?

Ovi didn't carry the capitals to the SC.

Ovi had 27 points, his center had 32.

Backstrom had 23 points despite missing 4 games.

Oshie had 21, Eller had 18 and 14 ESP to Ovi's 15.

I get the narrative for Ovi winning the Conn Smythe but to say that he "carried" the capitals to the Cup win is pure balderdash.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Plus Ovechkin could say he gave Crosby a run for his money as best player on the planet and one could argue he was slightly better than Sid 2007-2010....at least as far as regular seasons go.

But hey, what's this?!? A Pens/Crosby fan willing to admit that!

Gee thanks for admitting being outscored by 21 goals and 16 points per season for three straight seasons is arguably "slightly" better.

How big of you.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Did you even watch the SC playoffs last year?

Ovi didn't carry the capitals to the SC.

Ovi had 27 points, his center had 32.

Backstrom had 23 points despite missing 4 games.

Oshie had 21, Eller had 18 and 14 ESP to Ovi's 15.

I get the narrative for Ovi winning the Conn Smythe but to say that he "carried" the capitals to the Cup win is pure balderdash.

No player has ever carried a team to a cup. Not Gretzky, not Howe, not Orr, not Lemieux. Nobody.

 

[wetcoast]

So I wanted to cancel my subscription to the New York Times, which turned out to be useless in researching Bill Cook, and they don't even let you cancel it quickly online.You need to start a chat with some ''technical assistant'', which is a salesperson in disguise trying to change your mind and throwing a bunch of different subscription offers at you and wasting your time.After they insisted for about 5-10 minutes they finally cancelled it.

This is the last time I ever subscribe to the NYT or to any newspaper using similar shady practices.I am disgusted and will make sure to speak against this journal any opportunity I get from now on.

It's sad to see how newspapers are following the mistakes that record companies made when Napster appeared.

They need to adapt to survive and I think there is a model for them to do this but will they learn?

 

[wetcoast]

No player has ever carried a team to a cup. Not Gretzky, not Howe, not Orr, not Lemieux. Nobody.

Correct teams win SC's not players.

We both agree that Ovi winning the Conn Smythe isn't the huge feather in his cap as Fantomas is claiming, right?

That being said Ovi has never had a playoff as good as any of the big 4 that you mentioned either.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's interesting that Ovechkin getting out of the divisional round one time in 13 years is suddenly a positive for him...what a crazy game of wack-a-mole these guys play...I guess you gotta setup a lot of mirrors to add some dimension...

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ahah, the new definition of "carrying your team to the Cup" is getting firmly outscored and outplayed by your center linemate? Good to know, because I like to stay updated on all things hockey.

Ovechkin was the Capitals' best player in these past playoffs.

Kuznetsov was great but there are big holes in his game - he sucks at defense, faceoffs, battling for the puck, and he's not physical at all. He also benefits from all the space Ovechkin creates (as does Backstrom when they're on the ice together).

You obviously didn't watch much, but the Caps won the TB series by dominating center ice physically. Those last two games were shutouts - largely due to Ovechkin/Wilson/Orpik establishing a physical game.

 

[wetcoast]

Gee thanks for admitting being outscored by 21 goals and 16 points per season for three straight seasons is arguably "slightly" better.

How big of you.

from 07-10 is 4 seasons were Ovi had a line of

315-217-206-423 and sid was

290-144-260-404

That defines slightly better.

I think you are using 08-10 and sure Ovi was slightly better also in those years, health had something to do with the difference in counting stats.

Remember your claim on Ovy's per game rating in the playoffs?

Speaking of playoffs, Crosby blows Ovi out of the water in the playoffs those 3 years, just for some context.

57-27-50-77
28-20-20-40

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ovechkin was the Capitals' best player in these past playoffs.

Is this the part where I suggest you're a liar. If you said second best, fine, I'd look the other way...he was the third best player on the Capitals. Holtby should have won the Smythe, Kuznetsov was 2.

After watching every second of every game this year, I came away with this as my Smythe ballot in 2018...

Final:
1. Braden Holtby
2. Evgeni Kuznetsov
3. Marc-Andre Fleury
4. Alexander Ovechkin
5. William Karlsson

HM: Lars Eller, Jonathan Marchessault, John Carlson, Colin Miller, T.J. Oshie

That said, Ovechkin's performance was still really strong...don't get me wrong. He adapted his game, fit into a structure that was bigger than him, and still led the playoffs in goals, pp goals and shots (IIRC)...that's a sign that he's a great player (as if we had any doubt)...but to sit here and try to pimp him as the best player in these playoffs, again, is either just pumpin the guys tires for effect or it has such a weight towards goal-scoring wingers, who cover the least amount of ice in the game, that it's just a funhouse mirror look at how the game is played...it's just EA Sports jibber jabber in my eyes...

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin was the Capitals' best player in these past playoffs.

Once again that's highly subjective and even if one has that view, at least 5 other players had playoffs that were either as good or very close to Ovi last year.

Kuznetsov was great but there are big holes in his game - he sucks at defense, faceoffs, battling for the puck, and he's not physical at all. He also benefits from all the space Ovechkin creates (as does Backstrom when they're on the ice together).

I guess that's why Trotz started Kuz in the offensive zone 70% of the time in those playoffs...oh wait that's Ovi starting 70% there.

And somehow everyone but you failed to realize that Ovi was robbed of the selke last year, right?

Although he did finish 50th and 28th 2 years in a row in 09 and 10 (something to file under the trivia file).

Some clown in 10 actually voted Ovi 1st for the Selke, might have been the same guy who voted some Scott Niedermayer 2nd is my guess.

You obviously didn't watch much, but the Caps won the TB series by dominating center ice physically. Those last two games were shutouts - largely due to Ovechkin/Wilson/Orpik establishing a physical game.

Lucky for Hotlby getting those shutouts as goalies have such a minimal impact on stopping pucks right?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Correct teams win SC's not players.

We both agree that Ovi winning the Conn Smythe isn't the huge feather in his cap as Fantomas is claiming, right?

Depends on where you are coming from.

I was never one of these people who claimed Ovechkin needed it to be an all-time great, so yeah, it's nice but not a huge deal for me. I've always understood that hockey is a team sport. Peak Lemieux couldn't even get his team into the playoffs back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. That ought to tell you something.

But if I was one of these people who thinks all-time greats need a cup, it would necessarily be a huge deal.

 

[wetcoast]

Depends on where you are coming from.

I was never one of these people who claimed Ovechkin needed it to be an all-time great, so yeah, it's nice but not a huge deal for me. I've always understood that hockey is a team sport. Peak Lemieux couldn't even get his team into the playoffs back when 16 out of 21 teams made it in. That ought to tell you something.

But if I was one of these people who thinks all-time greats need a cup, it would necessarily be a huge deal.

Fair enough if you aren't one of these people.

Going forward though that argument, for those that might want to make it, is going to be a really weak one in a 32 team league.

Heck even for current players in the NHL who have played in a 30 team league their entire careers.

 

[Fantomas]

Did you even watch the SC playoffs last year?

Ovi didn't carry the capitals to the SC.

Ovi had 27 points, his center had 32.

Backstrom had 23 points despite missing 4 games.

Oshie had 21, Eller had 18 and 14 ESP to Ovi's 15.

I get the narrative for Ovi winning the Conn Smythe but to say that he "carried" the capitals to the Cup win is pure balderdash.

If you don't like the word "carried" then we can use a different word. But the point is that he led his team, as captain, and won the Conn Smythe trophy for it.

 

[wetcoast]

If you don't like the word "carried" then we can use a different word. But the point is that he led his team, as captain, and won the Conn Smythe trophy for it.

It's not that I don't like the word, it's that it's totally not true as a description of what happened.

 

[Midnight Judges]

from 07-10 is 4 seasons were Ovi had a line of

315-217-206-423 and sid was

290-144-260-404

That defines slightly better.

I think you are using 08-10 and sure Ovi was slightly better also in those years, health had something to do with the difference in counting stats.

Remember your claim on Ovy's per game rating in the playoffs?

Speaking of playoffs, Crosby blows Ovi out of the water in the playoffs those 3 years, just for some context.

57-27-50-77
28-20-20-40

I like how you include the 2006-2007 season in 7-10. That's neat.

I also like how you think Crosby's 1.35 PPG / .35 GPG blows Ovechkin's 1.43 PPG / .71 GPG "out of the water."

I don't know what you think you are proving.

 

[Fantomas]

from 07-10 is 4 seasons were Ovi had a line of

315-217-206-423 and sid was

290-144-260-404

That defines slightly better.

This seems like a really heated debate and I'm too full of Christmas cheer to want to get in the middle of this, but c'mon mate. The disparity in goals is significant here.

Adjust your focus a little bit with different metrics - like goals created rather than points - and Ovechkin is clearly the better player. Not close at all.

 

[sr edler]

Ovechkin was the Capitals' best player in these past playoffs.

No, he wasn’t.

he sucks at defense

He's still better at it than Ovechkin.

faceoffs

He’s probably better at them than Ovechkin, who doesn’t even take them.

battling for the puck, and he's not physical at all.

You don’t have to hit everything that moves to be an effective player. Ask Lidström about it. And while Ovechkin is stronger and better physically than Kuznetsov, it’s still the big item that fell off from his peak game post his Brian Campbell suspension in 09–10, transforming him into a tamer version of himself.

He also benefits from all the space Ovechkin creates (as does Backstrom when they're on the ice together).

Uh, yeah, right. One of the best skaters/puck carrying/zone entering centers in the league can’t create space/scoring chances on his own.

You obviously didn't watch much

I didn’t watch every second of every game but from what I saw Kuznetsov was tap-dancing all over the ice, setting up guys all over the rink, driving the play, scoring crucial goals.

Ovechkin was good to, and had an inspirational run scoring some nice goals, after Holtby and Eller turned the ship around in game 3 against CBJ, but no, he wasn’t carrying the team at all.