Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (The Third)

[quoipourquoi]

Biggest snub on this list is Pavel Bure. Incredible peak, comparable to Lindros in that aspect. I think those few legendary seasons put him above guys like Thornton, Mark Howe, Keon and Abel if not higher.

With respect to Pavel Bure, did he have seasons that were any more legendary than the ones Joe Thornton had?

I think in a few years when it really sinks in how rare a goaltender with ten top-10 finishes in save percentage, ~500 wins, and multiple Pearson nominations is, we’ll see who was truly the biggest snub. Right now, I think we’re still a little too stuck in the mindset that every truly great player wins the Stanley Cup when in a 30-team league, it’s a tougher standard to be held to.

 

[Nick Hansen]

It has to be Luongo you are referring to, right? Strange how Hockey-Reference seemingly suddenly stopped updating its information. I've asked this before but did the guy running it die one day or what? The omissions are so random and strange.

 

[quoipourquoi]

From '87 - '93, Yzerman lead the Red Wings in scoring each year by an average of 35 points per season

Sakic was never asked to carry the offense to that extent, and in many seasons during his prime he wasn't even the best offensive player on his own team

1990 and 1991 Quebec Nordiques?

I don’t know that we gave bonus points for playing on bad teams though. In a lot of ways, that benefits players as they don’t have to share offensive responsibilities - and voters don’t have to question the “valuable” aspect of the performance, which certainly hurt Sakic’s Hart chances in years like 1996 and 2004.

 

[quoipourquoi]

It has to be Luongo you are referring to, right? Strange how Hockey-Reference seemingly suddenly stopped updating its information. I've asked this before but did the guy running it die one day or what? The omissions are so random and strange.

Indeed. Lundqvist should be too. Something we discussed in the other threads - how it is incredibly unlikely that there hasn’t been a top-100 goaltender since the 1990 draft.

Had either come up for vote in the final rounds (which Pavel Bure actually did), I wouldn’t have been surprised to see either become instant #1s in their round like Ed Belfour was 15 spots earlier.

 

[Perennial]

1990 and 1991 Quebec Nordiques?

I don’t know that we gave bonus points for playing on bad teams though. In a lot of ways, that benefits players as they don’t have to share offensive responsibilities - and voters don’t have to question the “valuable” aspect of the performance, which certainly hurt Sakic’s Hart chances in years like 1996 and 2004.

Re: '90 and '91

Sakic had some seasons where he had to carry the load, when I said 'to that extent' I meant for such a prolonged period of time

It's possibly one of the reasons why Yzerman didn't age as well

As for bonus points, we certainly should be giving them to players who dominated without the luxury of an all-star supporting cast

 

[Perennial]

Keith's inclusion in the top 100 seems out of place considering he never finished higher than 15th in Hart voting...

Duncan Keith
2x Norris finalist, 2x Norris winner, 2x 1st Team All-Star, 1x 2nd Team All-Star, Smythe winner

Scott Niedermayer
3x Norris finalist, 1x Norris winner, 3x 1st Team All-Star, 1x 2nd Team All-Star, Smythe winner, 2x top 10 in Hart voting

Erik Karlsson
4x Norris finalist, 2x Norris winner, 4x 1st Team All-Star, 4x top 10 in Hart voting

 

[Toronto Maple Beast]

With respect to Pavel Bure, did he have seasons that were any more legendary than the ones Joe Thornton had?

1993-94 and 1999-00 Bure better than any Thornton season except for his 2005-06 MVP year. For the all-time ranking it's a close call because of Thornton's longevity but Bure's skill should have at least gotten him on the list. Possibly the fastest skater in hockey history.

 

[Perennial]

I'll echo the sentiment that Bure was snubbed...

 

[sr edler]

Strange how Hockey-Reference seemingly suddenly stopped updating its information. I've asked this before but did the guy running it die one day or what? The omissions are so random and strange.

I cruised by its sister site sports-reference a while ago and it was down or something. Or perhaps it was the Olympics (same site? on my phone right now too lazy to check). It could be about rights, or money. Never trust sites anyway.

 

[bobholly39]

Josh Yohe - local Pittsburgh man - from The Athletic put together his top 25 of all time (could be paywall'd): Yohe mailbag: Ranking the best players in history, the NHL's...

High (?) lights:

1. Lemieux
3. Gretzky
4. Crosby
6. Howe
8. Jagr
10. Ovechkin
11. Bossy
12. Bobby Hull
18. Ron Francis (I know about 20 people here who just spilled coffee onto their crotch)
22. Dionne
23. Bourque
24. Malkin

One-quarter them of spent at least some time in Pittsburgh at a glance...

In the very next line of his mail bag article, he has the Pens winning the lottery and putting #1 pick Alexis Lafreniere on RW, when he's a career LW. So, if it's any consolation, he hates the past and the future...

Nice to see Ron Francis get some love. Now to be fair - even i'm not crazy enough to argue him as #18. But i still feel he doesn't get proper respect around here. 5th all-time in points, and he didn't exactly play in a super high scoring era his whole career, as he played in the dead puck era too. He outdid both Yzerman and Sakic in points, as a reference for overlapping years.

Just like Sakic and Yzerman - he was also very good defensively. 7 years top 10 selke, including one win. That's practically better than both Sakic and Yzerman combined in that respect.

It's true that his overall offensive peak isn't as high as others. - but his consistency and longevity are commendable. Very strong playoffs too - if again no actual individual smythes. He did win 2 cups and was very important in both runs - and did great as a 38 yr old leading Carolina to finals as well.

i'm more of a peak guy than career/longevity usually - but in some cases I think career consistency and longevity should matter more

 

[quoipourquoi]

Ron Francis has a very Johnny Bucyk feel to me. They retired way higher on the all-time scoring charts than expected, but had the benefit of being in an incredibly fortunate situation right when contemporaries and predecessors would be slowing down statistically. Ron Francis landing alongside Jaromir Jagr would be like Mike Gartner landing alongside Joe Sakic; it wouldn’t make Gartner a better player but he would sure look like it on the scoresheet.

And Francis got little Selke appreciation until ending up in the narrative of someone must be responsible for allowing Jagr to run free. His only year receiving votes in Hartford had him on just 12 of 63 ballots.

I think he’s fringe top-100. 2001-02 does some heavy lifting in that regard, even if it was a one-off. But he was also up for vote in the final rounds and didn’t make it, so I don’t think of him as a snub the way I would for others who we could probably make great cases for (but didn’t do well enough in the aggregate).

 

[bobholly39]

Ron Francis has a very Johnny Bucyk feel to me. They retired way higher on the all-time scoring charts than expected, but had the benefit of being in an incredibly fortunate situation right when contemporaries and predecessors would be slowing down statistically. Ron Francis landing alongside Jaromir Jagr would be like Mike Gartner landing alongside Joe Sakic; it wouldn’t make Gartner a better player but he would sure look like it on the scoresheet.

And Francis got little Selke appreciation until ending up in the narrative of someone must be responsible for allowing Jagr to run free. His only year receiving votes in Hartford had him on just 12 of 63 ballots.

I think he’s fringe top-100. 2001-02 does some heavy lifting in that regard, even if it was a one-off. But he was also up for vote in the final rounds and didn’t make it, so I don’t think of him as a snub the way I would for others who we could probably make great cases for (but didn’t do well enough in the aggregate).

That's a hell of a way to completely discard his selke record lol. I'm not one to usually care much about defense, but I figure selke voting is a good representation, especially compared to others.

How much better is #2 vs #1 in Selke voting results below:

Finishes of 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8
Finishes of 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9

The first row is Ron Francis. The second row is the career combination of Sakic/Yzerman/Forsberg - 3 renown 2-way forwards with excellent defense. Francis' selke record alone rivals almost the 3 of them combined.

 

[Perennial]

I'm surprised Iginla didn't make the list...

Lead the Flames in scoring for 11 straight seasons, won 2 Richard trophies, an Art Ross, was a 3x 1st Team All-Star, and was a 3x Hart finalist

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think he might have gone next round...maybe...? I feel like we discussed him at the end...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm surprised Iginla didn't make the list...

Lead the Flames in scoring for 11 straight seasons, won 2 Richard trophies, was a 3x 1st Team All-Star, and was a 3x Hart finalist

Iginla was easily the biggest snub on the list.

 

[quoipourquoi]

That's a hell of a way to completely discard his selke record lol. I'm not one to usually care much about defense, but I figure selke voting is a good representation, especially compared to others.

How much better is #2 vs #1 in Selke voting results below:

Finishes of 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8
Finishes of 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9

The first row is Ron Francis. The second row is the career combination of Sakic/Yzerman/Forsberg - 3 renown 2-way forwards with excellent defense. Francis' selke record alone rivals almost the 3 of them combined.

I don’t really regard the Selke record as being terribly effective in terms of measuring defense. The only years Ron Francis appeared on 20% of the Selke ballots in a season were 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998... and I think it doesn’t take a mullet and a jar of peanut butter to see the pattern there.

And Francis’ worst Selke finish of those four seasons just happened to be the one where Jagr was injured and therefore Ron Francis wasn’t a top-5 scorer that people felt inclined to shoehorn onto a ballot.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I think he might have gone next round...maybe...? I feel like we discussed him at the end...

We did. In the #95-99 voting block, just 5 of 21 voters had Iginla in a top-6 position (which would be a de facto top-100 player), whereas all 5 players who landed #95-99 received double the support with 10+ votes in a top-6 position, including Iginla’s contemporary Martin St. Louis.

Ultimately, Iginla landed #101 in the wide-open run-off for the final spot.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don’t really regard the Selke record as being terribly effective in terms of measuring defense. The only years Ron Francis appeared on 20% of the Selke ballots in a season were 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998... and I think it doesn’t take a mullet and a jar of peanut butter to see the pattern there.

And Francis’ worst Selke finish of those four seasons just happened to be the one where Jagr was injured and therefore Ron Francis wasn’t a top-5 scorer that people felt inclined to shoehorn onto a ballot.

All that said, Francis was very good defensively. Over a career, much better than Sakic or Yzerman.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Iginla was easily the biggest snub on the list.

Disagree.

Take "easily" out and I probably don't respond.

For me Bure is the biggest snub.

 

[quoipourquoi]

For those of you believing Iginla and Bure were the biggest snubs, how far deep would you have them on your top-100 lists? Just wondering how much we feel we missed the mark on them.

When I re-did my top-100 this year, I had Tony Esposito (my highest player who went unranked on our list) at #65, so he was pretty comfortably within my list. Seems to me that his career will age better, as the NHL’s official release of pre-1984 save percentages was too new at the time of our project to make an impact (same with Johnny Bower).

But for Iginla and Bure and Francis, I’m just not sure I see something there that’s under-reported that is going to make them make a bigger splash on these lists if they’re run again in 5-10 years. And by then, there’s going to be even less room as Karlsson and McDavid and Kucherov and others (perhaps Draisaitl and MacKinnon, though they’re more up in the air) start bumping off our fringe players.

 

[Toronto Maple Beast]

But for Iginla and Bure and Francis, I’m just not sure I see something there that’s under-reported that is going to make them make a bigger splash on these lists if they’re run again in 5-10 years.

This video convinced me on Bure

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

For those of you believing Iginla and Bure were the biggest snubs, how far deep would you have them on your top-100 lists? Just wondering how much we feel we missed the mark on them.

When I re-did my top-100 this year, I had Tony Esposito (my highest player who went unranked on our list) at #65, so he was pretty comfortably within my list. Seems to me that his career will age better, as the NHL’s official release of pre-1984 save percentages was too new at the time of our project to make an impact (same with Johnny Bower).

But for Iginla and Bure and Francis, I’m just not sure I see something there that’s under-reported that is going to make them make a bigger splash on these lists if they’re run again in 5-10 years. And by then, there’s going to be even less room as Karlsson and McDavid and Kucherov and others (perhaps Draisaitl and MacKinnon, though they’re more up in the air) start bumping off our fringe players.

Checking my original list, I actually had Tony O. higher (68) than Bure (76). But by the last vote I put Bure ahead of Esposito.

Also had Russell Bowie at 56 and Krutov at 65. Not surprised at all that neither made the final 100. Also had Johnnie Bower at 80.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

We did. In the #95-99 voting block, just 5 of 21 voters had Iginla in a top-6 position (which would be a de facto top-100 player), whereas all 5 players who landed #95-99 received double the support with 10+ votes in a top-6 position, including Iginla’s contemporary Martin St. Louis.

Ultimately, Iginla landed #101 in the wide-open run-off for the final spot.

The wingers project had it right with regards to Iginla vs St Louis. It really is too bad that all the old tables got destroyed when this site changed servers. I know I mentioned that "I remember Iginla's goal differentials vs his teammates were insane - as good as you'd normally see from a superstar defensemen - you just don't see forwards with that statistical impact." But that's no substitute for actually seeing the data.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This video convinced me on Bure

Bure is up there among the greatest ever YouTube players, but in terms of accomplishments, I'd take Sweeney Schriner, among offense-only wingers.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Jarome Iginla has the peak but I can't shake the impression that he was no better than Mats Sundin or Mike Modano as a franchise player (and neither made the list, along with a myriad of other centers in the same range).

Of course that's just a special case of the general wingers vs. centers problem of figuring out their relative value.

I find it difficult to believe any real-life GM would pick Martin St. Louis over Mats Sundin, for example.