Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time (The Third)

[GoldenKnight]

Malkin—Forsberg

Art Ross: 2—1
Lindsay: 1—0
Smythe: 1—0
Calder: 1—1
Hart: 1—1
Hart Finalist: 3—1
Hart Top 10: 5—3
Top 10 Points: 4—5
Top 10 P/GP: 10—8
Top 10 Goals: 3—0
AST: 3—3
Awards: 6—3


Forsberg was an elite player. Malkin passed him a while ago.

 

[sr edler]

Isn't Henrik Sedin better than Steve Yzerman per award counting and all-star nods?

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Consensus says they were near identical when this project was done.

So the simple question is: has Malkin added anything in the past 4 years to change his ranking?

Aside from a playoff scoring title, and two regular seasons where he finished top 10 in Hart trophy voting?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Malkin—Forsberg

Art Ross: 2—1
Lindsay: 1—0
Smythe: 1—0
Calder: 1—1
Hart: 1—1
Hart Finalist: 3—1
Hart Top 10: 5—3
Top 10 Points: 4—5
Top 10 P/GP: 10—8
Top 10 Goals: 3—0
AST: 3—3
Awards: 6—3


Forsberg was an elite player. Malkin passed him a while ago.

Plus/Minus

Malkin - regular season +59 playoffs +6
Forsberg- regular season +238 playoffs +54

Points per game

Malkin - regular season 1.17 playoffs 1.02
Forsberg - regular season 1.25 playoffs 1.13

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Aside from a playoff scoring title, and two regular seasons where he finished top 10 in Hart trophy voting?

Where did you get this misinformation from?

 

[K Fleur]

I don’t find Forsberg talk very interesting because I don’t think I’ve seen many takes on him that are grounded in reality.

 

[bobholly39]

Aside from a playoff scoring title, and two regular seasons where he finished top 10 in Hart trophy voting?

The top 100 project took place during the course of the 2018-2019 regular season.

In then 2016-2017 playoffs Malkin led scoring
in the 2017-2018 season Malkin was 7th in hart (very tough hart competition that year, very good season for him, probably could even have finished higher)

So - all he really added from your list is a 10th place hart finish in the 2019-2020 season. Real good season for him, but just 55 games. He wasn't good in 2018-2019, and last 2 seasons are kind of a write-off for him too, lots of games missed. And he hasn't done anything good in playoffs for past 4 years.

I think there's still value in actual games and season played with Forsberg's resume being so short - but Malkin definitely didn't add a lot of "big stuff" since the top 100 ranking was made.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Where did you get this misinformation from?

The playoff title was indeed there already.

The top 10 Hart Trophy finishes were from summer 2018 and summer 2020 though.

In addition to the Hart voting, Malkin also put up several seasons over point-per-game, eclipsed 1,000 career points, and was named to the IIHF all-time Russian team, all since this hfboards list was done.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I have them back to back at 20 and 21 for centres.

I never viewed Malkin as the best player in the world. Even in 2011-12, I still very much viewed Crosby as the better player.

I viewed Forsberg as the best player in the world from probably the 2002 playoffs until I accepted he would never be healthy/the rise of Crosby and Ovechkin some time in 2006.

It doesn't mean a whole lot, but it still feels relevant.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Aside from a playoff scoring title, and two regular seasons where he finished top 10 in Hart trophy voting?

The Forsberg/Malkin round was discussed and voted upon at the end of January 2019. If we start the clock at Feb 1, Malkin has added:

Finishing 2018-19: 7-10-17 in 18 regular season games and 1-2-3 in a 4-game sweep​

​

2019-20: 25-49-74 in 55 regular season games. In the playoffs, 0-1-1 in a four game qualifying round elimination. 0-0-0-1-5 on the Hart ballot. 0-0-0-0-2 on the Selke ballot. 0-0-1 on the AS center ballot.​

​

2020-21: 8-20-28 in 33 regular season games. 1-4-5 in four playoff games.​

​

2021-22: 20-22-42 in 41 regular season games. 3-3-6 in seven playoff games.​

​

Total: 60-101-161 in 147 regular season games, 5-10-15 in 19 playoff games. All award recognition noted above in 2019-20.​

​

Within the same age range, Forsberg missed two full seasons posting 33-111-144 in 126 regular season games, and 7-10-17 in 18 playoff games, with award recognition similar to Malkin's above.

That leaves Malkin with a very slight advantage in regular season points (worth about an additional 4 points per 82) and Forsberg an advantage in playoff points (12 per 82) with very similar team results, very similar award recognition, and international performances irrelevant to this conversation.

To me, this period of time seems damn near identical between the two of them. Prior to this period of time, consensus was that they're damn near identical. I'm inclined to rank them as... damn near identical.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

The Forsberg/Malkin round was discussed and voted upon at the end of January 2019. If we start the clock at Feb 1, Malkin has added:

Finishing 2018-19: 7-10-17 in 18 regular season games and 1-2-3 in a 4-game sweep​

​

2019-20: 25-49-74 in 55 regular season games. In the playoffs, 0-1-1 in a four game qualifying round elimination. 0-0-0-1-5 on the Hart ballot. 0-0-0-0-2 on the Selke ballot. 0-0-1 on the AS center ballot.​

​

2020-21: 8-20-28 in 33 regular season games. 1-4-5 in four playoff games.​

​

2021-22: 20-22-42 in 41 regular season games. 3-3-6 in seven playoff games.​

​

Total: 60-101-161 in 147 regular season games, 5-10-15 in 19 playoff games. All award recognition noted above in 2019-20.​

​

Within the same age range, Forsberg missed two full seasons posting 33-111-144 in 126 regular season games, and 7-10-17 in 18 playoff games, with award recognition similar to Malkin's above.

That leaves Malkin with a very slight advantage in regular season points (worth about an additional 4 points per 82) and Forsberg an advantage in playoff points (12 per 82) with very similar team results, very similar award recognition, and international performances irrelevant to this conversation.

To me, this period of time seems damn near identical between the two of them. Prior to this period of time, consensus was that they're damn near identical. I'm inclined to rank them as... damn near identical.

I don’t see the need in discussing Forsberg’s play in his early 30s in this context. His career was done well before this hfboards list was made. Malkin has added since then (see my post above), Forsberg has not.

If you really viewed the two as identical then, you should by definition have Malkin ahead now.

That said, all of this is based upon the flawed premise that this hfboards list should be taken as some sort of gospel. It’s about as close to gospel as a game of thrones book.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don’t see the need in discussing Forsberg’s play in his early 30s in this context. His career was done well before this hfboards list was made. Malkin has added since then (see my post above), Forsberg has not.

If you really viewed the two as identical then, you should by definition have Malkin ahead now.

There's an internal conflict between the idea that Forsberg's 32-35 added virtually no value at all to his career, and Malkin's 32-35 looking nearly identical in every way... and then the idea that Malkin has added significantly to his argument over Forsberg.

I'll grant you that Malkin is showing more staying power than Forsberg, in the sense that he's out there performing at a respectable level rather than watching the game on his sofa. Some people here don't give much credit in all-time arguments to the ones who stick around and continue to contribute at a sub-superstar level... I tend to be one who assigns a little more credit for that trait, especially if it's done in the context of contributing to team success (or making a very respectable attempt). To me that's worth a little bit of "icing on the cake" as @wetcoast put it.

But how much difference does Malkin's past 3 years really make? At this point he's simply keeping stride with Forsberg, not exceeding him. It's enough for me to buy into moving Malkin to #51 over Forsberg at #52, but there's no separation being created on account of these few seasons. Certainly not enough to elevate him to a higher tier than where he was before.

That said, all of this is based upon the flawed premise that this hfboards list should be taken as some sort of gospel.

It's not gospel, but it is consensus of the very wide variety of viewpoints that constitute this community.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The top 100 project took place during the course of the 2018-2019 regular season.

In then 2016-2017 playoffs Malkin led scoring
in the 2017-2018 season Malkin was 7th in hart (very tough hart competition that year, very good season for him, probably could even have finished higher)

So - all he really added from your list is a 10th place hart finish in the 2019-2020 season. Real good season for him, but just 55 games. He wasn't good in 2018-2019, and last 2 seasons are kind of a write-off for him too, lots of games missed. And he hasn't done anything good in playoffs for past 4 years.

I think there's still value in actual games and season played with Forsberg's resume being so short - but Malkin definitely didn't add a lot of "big stuff" since the top 100 ranking was made.

And the few votes he got were clearly rep votes. Several players out of the top 10 had clearly better seasons.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I don’t find Forsberg talk very interesting because I don’t think I’ve seen many takes on him that are grounded in reality.

I think I’ve spotted a user with a hangup.

Peak Forsberg
Peak Lindros
Peak Fedorov

HF’s holy trinity.

Nothing short of some divine holy power is going to beat “peak Forsberg” in an HF poll.

My personal favorite shot of Jagr and Forsberg playing hockey in the apocalyptic DPE.

“Peak Forsberg could beat Michael Jordan in a one on one basketball game”-Somebody on HF...probably

No, it has to be "Peak Forsberg". HF's version of "Peak Forsberg" is the greatest athlete to come from the land of make believe.

I think right now I’d take Peter Forsberg on my NBA team over Steph Curry.

Gotta put HF really to the test and try “Peak Forsberg” next time.

“Peak Forsberg could take Usain Bolt in a 100 meter dash”- an HF user...probably.

Fedorov
“Peak” Peter Forsberg
Eric Lindros

HF’s holy overrated trinity.

“Peak Peter Forsberg was a better dunker than Michael Jordan”- Somebody on HF…prolly

Lindros, Fedorov, and Forsberg are The overrated holy trinity of HF.

No, it has to be "Peak Forsberg". HF's version of "Peak Forsberg" is the greatest athlete to come from the land of make believe.

OP messed up. Should have put “Peak Peter Forsberg” as a poll option. That one is undefeated on this website.

 

[Wings4Life]

Isn't Henrik Sedin better than Steve Yzerman per award counting and all-star nods?

That's a disingenuous reply, assuming you're referring to the post right above yours. I guess you are willfully ignoring Malkin's superior points per game finishes, Hart Trophy voting record, and vastly superior goalscoring relative to Forsberg, all of which were detailed in that post you disagree with?

 

[seventieslord]

Forsberg

Seasons/Games: 13 / 708

Hart: 1

AS Center: 1, 1, 1, 3, 5

Scoring: 2, 4, 5

Goals: no top-5

Assists: 1, 2, 3, 4

Selke: 2, 4

Cups: 2

Smythe: none

International: Iconic in Sweden for his WJC and 1994 Olympic performances, but his record in best-on-best tournaments isn't remarkable.



Malkin

Seasons/Games: 16 / 981

Hart: 1, 2, 2

AS Center: 1, 1, 1, 4

Scoring: 1, 1, 2, 4

Goals: 2, 4, 4, 5

Assists: 1, 3

Selke: no top-5

Cups: 3

Smythe: 1

International: Has generally played well individually, even though Team Russia has fallen short of expectations.



McDavid

Seasons/Games: 7 / 487

Hart: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 5

AS Center: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3

Points: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2

Goals: 2, 6, 6, 7, 10

Assists: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3

Selke: no top-5

Cups: none

Smythe: none

International: Has never had the opportunity to play in an Olympics. Has performed well in successful lower-level international tourneys.



It's pretty clear that McDavid belongs above these guys, IMO.



I'll grant you that Malkin is showing more staying power than Forsberg, in the sense that he's out there performing at a respectable level rather than watching the game on his sofa. Some people here don't give much credit in all-time arguments to the ones who stick around and continue to contribute at a sub-superstar level... I tend to be one who assigns a little more credit for that trait, especially if it's done in the context of contributing to team success (or making a very respectable attempt).

There seems to be a mindset that's becoming more popular lately that says, "as soon as active player A has done something better than older player B did, then he's officially better". It seems to be really popular with Cale Makar fans (and I love Makar) but to an extent, you're doing it with McDavid here.

Without a doubt, McDavid's best 6 seasons have been better than Forsberg's best 6 and Malkin's best 6. Who could argue against that? You provided the bullet point case for all to see. But I don't agree with automatically saying that he's clearly better than they now, in an all-time sense. And you touched on why, in another post: in McDavid's seventh and eighth best seasons, what was he doing? Playing Junior hockey and watching NHL highlights on his sofa. In EM and PF's 8th and 9th best seasons, whichever those were, they weren't just doing nothing, just because they don't have a scoring finish or a Hart finish to point to. They were both among the league's ten best forwards, scoring over a point per game and contributing to a great deal of team success. Almost certainly only some missed games prevented then from earning bullet point achievements in those seasons.

I'm sure that in a career that was, as of three seasons ago, over twice as long as McDavid's still is now, Malkin had contributed much more to the goal of winning NHL hockey games than McDavid still has to this point. McDavid's better on the ice, yes, but is he twice as good?

I can't help but feel your second post directly contradicts what you had said when comparing McDavid to these two.

 

[buffalowing88]

It's certainly close and I love the arguments both sides are making in that they're generally in good-faith at least.

That said, I'm going to take the ceiling of a guy who was 3 inches taller and noticeably smoother with the way he used his size than Forsberg who could at times look like a pinball out there. Forsberg's play was fun and impressive but Malkin's ceiling is just higher.

Also, Forsberg definitely got a significant media push even in the US in the early 2000s as the "best player in the game" and I think that has influenced his legacy a bit more than his actual production.

Can't go wrong with either, but Malkin is as close to a prototypical 1C that I can remember since he came into the league.

 

[Wings4Life]

Points per game

Malkin - regular season 1.17 playoffs 1.02
Forsberg - regular season 1.25 playoffs 1.13

Forsberg's points per game is high because virtually his entire NHL career was played within his prime years. Forsberg started out as an old rookie. He was 21 years 6 months of age before he played his first NHL game. Elite forwards do not start their NHL careers so late in the modern era. As an older rookie, Forsberg therefore had a higher points per game in his lockout-shortened rookie season. After these first 47 games, ie. in his second season Forsberg was already in his prime and put up his career highs in points, assists, and goals. On the other hand, most modern NHL forwards will spend several full regular seasons building up to their career highs, as they start out younger. On the tail end of things, his prime went into the 2005-06 season, where Forsberg at age 32 scored 75 points in 60 games. After age 32, Forsberg only played 68 NHL games for the rest of his career, ie. less than one regular season where he was "passed his prime". Most HOF forwards will play at least for half a decade or more after the age of 32 (Malkin is already turning 36 himself), and during these years their points per game drops significantly. Forsberg avoided both the drop in points per game at the start of his career (due to being green), and the drop at the end of his career (from being old), because he simply did not play. He has a mere 115 games played outside of his prime (age 22 to 32), that's less than 1.5 seasons.

Does Forsberg deserve credit for simply not playing outside of his prime? Probably not.

Plus/Minus

Malkin - regular season +59 playoffs +6
Forsberg- regular season +238 playoffs +54

Plus minus is, by consensus, a worthless stat.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Does Forsberg deserve credit for simply not playing outside of his prime? Probably not.

Plus minus is, by consensus, a worthless stat.

A truly stupid comment.

Coaches and players site it all the time.

Watch them play the game. Forsberg was the better player.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I have them back to back at 20 and 21 for centres.

I never viewed Malkin as the best player in the world. Even in 2011-12, I still very much viewed Crosby as the better player.

I viewed Forsberg as the best player in the world from probably the 2002 playoffs until I accepted he would never be healthy/the rise of Crosby and Ovechkin some time in 2006.

It doesn't mean a whole lot, but it still feels relevant.

curious if i’m understanding you correctly, but are you suggesting that forsberg for a brief time being the best in the world is a point in his favour over malkin, even though the single player better than malkin in 2012 also would have been better than 02-03-04-05 forsberg if he was in his prime instead of being in high school?

it’s an interesting idea, tbh, greatness as contextual as opposed to some univerally comparable general equivalent. i don’t hate it.

 

[Michael Farkas]

By consensus...? Damn, I really must check my emails more often...

Plus/minus is what it is and you can value it as you see fit...like any other stat.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Seems the faulty Forsberg points-per-game argument has already been addressed, though I’ll add that comparing points-per-game (adjusted or not) across different eras should always be taken with a grain of salt. Otherwise you end up like our friend on the last page who rates Forsberg above Gordie Howe.

Several players out of the top 10 had clearly better seasons.

That would be your opinion, which would not be a majority view. The fact however is that Malkin did have another season in the top 10 in Hart voting that year.

 

[Wings4Life]

A truly stupid comment.

Seems like I touched a nerve?

Stay classy pal.

Watch them play the game. Forsberg was the better player.

I've seen their entire careers to date. Malkin was clearly the better player, both in the NHL and on the international stage.

 

[Neutrinos]

Seems the faulty Forsberg points-per-game argument has already been addressed, though I’ll add that comparing points-per-game (adjusted or not) across different eras should always be taken with a grain of salt. Otherwise you end up like our friend on the last page who rates Forsberg above Gordie Howe.

Forsberg was unquestionably better at hockey than Gordie Howe ever was

If you want to argue that Howe would've been as good or better than Forsberg had he been born half a century later, and therefore had all the advantages that Forsberg benefited from during his amateur career, that's open for debate, and could render an interesting discussion

But Gordie Howe as he was during his career simply wasn't on Forsberg's level

 

[TheGoldenJet]

There's an internal conflict between the idea that Forsberg's 32-35 added virtually no value at all to his career, and Malkin's 32-35 looking nearly identical in every way... and then the idea that Malkin has added significantly to his argument over Forsberg.

I'll grant you that Malkin is showing more staying power than Forsberg, in the sense that he's out there performing at a respectable level rather than watching the game on his sofa. Some people here don't give much credit in all-time arguments to the ones who stick around and continue to contribute at a sub-superstar level... I tend to be one who assigns a little more credit for that trait, especially if it's done in the context of contributing to team success (or making a very respectable attempt). To me that's worth a little bit of "icing on the cake" as @wetcoast put it.

But how much difference does Malkin's past 3 years really make? At this point he's simply keeping stride with Forsberg, not exceeding him. It's enough for me to buy into moving Malkin to #51 over Forsberg at #52, but there's no separation being created on account of these few seasons. Certainly not enough to elevate him to a higher tier than where he was before.

I am glad that we can agree on the fact that Malkin has added to his resume since the last hfboards list was made, while Forsberg has not. Where we diverge is our idea of where they were rated relative to each other in ~January 2019. You had them even at that time. I had Malkin significantly ahead by then already. He had already doubled Forsberg’s career accomplishments by that time in my eyes. He was also the better player peak for peak. I cannot envisage Forsberg winning a Conn Smythe from a peak Crosby, or taking the Ross from peak Ovechkin. Malkin just had another gear and showed his best against better competition.

It's not gospel, but it is consensus of the very wide variety of viewpoints that constitute this community.

To be a truly representative consensus though, the next list would need to be more representative of the hockey world as a whole. This current list was an honest attempt, and a couple of the voters are folks I look up to for their hockey knowledge. That said, it definitely has a western slant. Having more eastern voters involved would go a long way.