Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[ResilientBeast]

Those were all excellent players on Vancouver though. No dead weight.

True, but on paper looking at how they're remembered the only players somewhat close are Nighbor and Taylor. But I guess compared to some of the names on that 1915 team they are world beaters.

Boucher and Gerard were voted top 60 D and Cook and Duncan did not make the list.

I wasn't apart of the project so I don't know how close they were to even making it up to vote or if they were even really considered by voters.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Joe Sakic's consistency as a top 20 scorer

Points finishes listed:

1989-90: 10th
1991-91: 6th
1991-92: 14th
1992-93: 17th
1993-94: 19th
1994-95: 4th
1995-96: 3rd
1996-97: missed 17 games, but 11th in points-per-game
1997-98: missed 18 games, but 17th in points-per-game
1998-99: 5th
1999-00: 8th
2000-01: 2nd
2001-02: 5th
2002-03: missed 24 games, but 16th in points-per-game
2003-04: 2nd
2005-06: 17th
2006-07: 6th

For 17 straight seasons, Sakic was either top 20 in points or top 20 in points per game

 

[BenchBrawl]

Judging Taylor based on 1921 is unfair to him anyway.He wasn't in his prime anymore.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

REPOST FROM HOH TOP CENTERS PROJECT

Joe Sakic's underrated prime

Joe Sakic has a reputation as a guy who was an elite player for a long time, but who didn't necessarily have the peak of some of these other guys. And while I agree that Sakic was an elite player for an extraordinary period of time (first top 10 finish in scoring in 1989-90; last top 10 finish in scoring in 2006-07), I think he did have a standout mid/late career peak that is incredibly underrated historically.

I think Sakic's peak is underrated for three main reasons:

1) Scoring dropped like a rock in the mid 90s, right as Sakic was entering his peak, so his raw stats don't stand out at you.

2) Sakic (like Jagr) had the bad luck of following in the footsteps of Gretzky and Lemieux, probably the two greatest offensive threats of all-time. Hockey fans got spoiled watching Gretzky and then Lemieux, and the greatest players after then just couldn't live up to the eye test. I think this most affected perceptions of Sakic (the best center to follow Gretzky/Lemieux domination) and Jagr.

3) Of Colorado's three superstars, Sakic was the quietest and least flashy.

Joe Sakic's 1995-2004 prime in statistics

Early peak
1994-95: 4th in points, 5th in points per game
1995-96: 3rd in points (behind Mario and Jagr), 5th in points per game

1996 playoffs: 18 goals (3rd all time behind Kurri and Leach), 34 points
2nd place in the playoffs (Mario Lemieux) had 27 points. 2nd best on Colorado was Valeri Kamensky with 21 points.

Injury troubles

Sakic missed 18 then 17 games in 1996-97 and 1997-98. He still had good stats (74 points in 65 games, 63 points in 64 games), but not good enough to finish top 10.

Sakic did finish with 25 points in the 1997 playoffs, however, only 1 point behind 1st place Eric Lindros, despite not making the finals.

Later career peak - Sakic's absolute peak - 1998-2004

This is the period to really focus on, and where I think Sakic is really hurt by the fact that his absolute peak corresponds almost perfectly to the deadest of the dead puck era.

1998-99: 5th in points with 96 points in 73 games. 3rd in points-per-game behind Jagr and Selanne.

1999-00: 8th in points, despite playing 60 games. 2nd in points-per-game to Jagr:

Points Per Game
1. Jaromir Jagr-PIT 1.52
2. Joe Sakic*-COL 1.35
3. Pavel Bure*-FLA 1.27
4. Pierre Turgeon-STL 1.27
5. Paul Kariya-MDA 1.16

Would Sakic have kept up his pace over a full 82 games? His performance the next season indicates he probably would have.

2000-01: Sakic was the best player in the league by a wide margin:

1. Jaromir Jagr-PIT 121
2. Joe Sakic*-COL 118
3. Patrik Elias-NJD 96
4. Martin Straka-PIT 95
Alex Kovalev-PIT 95

Sakic was 20 points ahead of Jagr around Christmastime before Mario Lemieux came out of retirement and starting boosting Jagr's stats. (Lemieux actually finished ahead of Jagr in Hart voting). In addition to his offense, Sakic had become an excellent defensive player by this point,* regularly killing penalties and being matched up against the opponent's best lines.

*he finished 2nd in Selke voting. Probably didn't deserve to finish that high, but it was a normal finish under the standards of the time (best defensive player among the league's leading scorers always got a lot of votes).

2001 playoffs: Sakic led the NHL in goals and points, while also taking on a large defensive role. He and Roy carried the Avalanche after Forsberg's spleen injury.

2001-02: Sakic followed up his 2000-01 season by being named MVP of the 2002 Olympics. All that hockey (and Colorado's new defensive system that they adopted after losing Forsberg for the season and Bourque to retirement) took a toll on Sakic, as he dropped to 5th in NHL scoring in a fairly weak year for forwards. Sakic looked somewhat tired by the time the playoffs came around

2002-03: Sakic is injured and Forsberg takes over the team. Sakic did score 58 points in 58 games, however.

2003-04: 2nd in points, 7th in points per game.

Forsberg was the better player at this point when healthy, but how many people remember that Sakic quietly tied for 2nd in NHL scoring in 2003-04?

Sakic's Selke record

All the above focuses on Sakic's offense. And while that was the best part of his game, he developed into an excellent two-way player during the second half of his career, often taking the toughest defensive assignments for Colorado and killing penalties. And unlike a lot of other players, Sakic was at his offensive best when he was also at his defensive best.

Via Hockey Outsider, Sakic was top 10 in points and Selke voting three times in his career:

1999-00: 8th in points (and 2nd in points-per-game), 10th in Selke voting
2000-01: 2nd in points (to Mario-aided Jagr), 2nd in Selke voting
2001-02: 5th in points, 9th in Selke voting

Kurri was 1st with 6 seasons in the top 10 in points and Selke voting, with Francis 2nd with 4 of each. Sakic, Gilmour, Datsyuk, and Forsberg were next best, with 3 each.

Top 10 in Scoring & Selke Voting

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not as hard. Ottawa had a better team on paper but the 1921 finals went 5 games and all were 1 goal games.

Played out west where western teams could compete. West never won an SC in the east.

 

[sr edler]

Played out west where western teams could compete. West never won an SC in the east.

Yes, that 1915 Ottawa team with Duford and Graham would have won out east, sure.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 20 scoring finishes among the two-way centers this round.

I'm including Yzerman, since he's often compared to Sakic, as they were playoff rivals for a number of years. Because someone is going to say "how can I vote for Sakic before Yzerman is available?"

Sakic: 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 10, 14, 17, 17, 19
Trottier: 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14
Clarke: 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 8, 10, 13
Yzerman: 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10, 12, 12, 13, 16, 19

Top 5 finishes:
Sakic 6
Clarke 3
Trottier 3
Yzerman 3

Top 10 finishes
Sakic 10
Clarke 7
Trottier 6
Yzerman 6

Top 20 finishes
Sakic 14
Yzerman 11
Clarke 8
Trottier 8

Conclusion: Sakic easily trumps Trottier, Clarke, and Yzerman as a regular season offensive producer.

I think that Clarke's all-time elite defense MIGHT be enough to make up the gap... maybe. Trottier and Yzerman were probably both better defensively than Sakic, but not enough to make up for the large gap in offensive longevity.

 

[seventieslord]

True, but on paper looking at how they're remembered the only players somewhat close are Nighbor and Taylor. But I guess compared to some of the names on that 1915 team they are world beaters.

Boucher and Gerard were voted top 60 D and Cook and Duncan did not make the list.

I wasn't apart of the project so I don't know how close they were to even making it up to vote or if they were even really considered by voters.

You've been in enough ATDs to have a good idea of Duncan and Cook's value. They're very strong ATD caliber players. Stanley and Adams are fringe ATDers. Duford and Graham? Never mentioned in the deepest possible drafts, that have gone 2200 picks deep.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think that Clarke's all-time elite defense MIGHT be enough to make up the gap... maybe. Trottier and Yzerman were probably both better defensively than Sakic, but not enough to make up for the large gap in offensive longevity.

Trottier also brought considerable physical play to the table.

 

[ResilientBeast]

You've been in enough ATDs to have a good idea of Duncan and Cook's value. They're very strong ATD caliber players. Stanley and Adams are fringe ATDers. Duford and Graham? Never mentioned in the deepest possible drafts, that have gone 2200 picks deep.

I don't disagree, I was slightly premature in my burying of the 1921 Millionaires

I've had Duncan trust me I've tried to sell him before.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Trottier also brought considerable physical play to the table in his defense.

Yes, he did. But I don't think Trottier's physical play was gamebreaking in a way that Clarke's defense was. And IMO, with Sakic clearly the better offensive player both regular season and playoffs, any of those guys needs a gamebreaking nonoffensive skill to compete with Sakic overall.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yes, he did. But I don't think Trottier's physical play was gamebreaking in a way that Clarke's defense was. And IMO, with Sakic clearly the better offensive player both regular season and playoffs, any of those guys needs a gamebreaking nonoffensive skill to compete with Sakic overall.

Maybe not, but Trottier did everything at a high level; defense, faceoffs, special units, physicality.Maybe none of those at a gamebreaking level (I'd need to check for faceoffs, can't now), but the combination of all of them might be gamebreaking.

I just think Trottier was a far superior player than Sakic without the puck, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm not saying Sakic has to go in this round, though he may. But I sure hope I don't see any clamoring for a Sakic vs. Yzerman round or voting against Sakic on that basis. That should really be "settled law" by now.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'd still love for anyone to convince me Lidstrom is better than Sakic, even if it's off-topic.Or point me to a post I might have missed where this is addressed.

 

[sr edler]

Played out west where western teams could compete.

1920 finals, Millionaires vs Arenas, played out east. Goes 5 games, game 5 a 1 goal game. Seems pretty close to me, but what do I know.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'd still love for anyone to convince me Lidstrom is better than Sakic, even if it's off-topic.Or point me to a post I might have missed where this is addressed.

Maybe Lidstrom just got injured less often. Sakic, while generally a fairly durable player, had a few bad-timed injuries in his prime where he either missed about 20 regular season games (see my post above) or a few playoff games.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Of the candidates up right now I think Makarov and Fetisov are probably in my top 4 going into this round.

I'm also interested in adding either Brodeur or Hall

Sakic probably is the next center who should get voted in, I would like Taylor but he's probably a vote too early

 

[VanIslander]

Trottier holds the NHL record for most consecutive playoff point-scoring streak: 27 games.

He started scoring in the 1980 playoffs and didn't stop until a game in the 1982 playoffs.

So, he holds the single postseason point streak as well, scoring in every 1981 playoff game, a record even Gretzky at his most prolific pace never matched.

Me thinks Trottier has an edge over Sakic in terms of peak.

 

[tony d]

What @VanIslander said. Both Trottier and Sakic are excellent players but Trottier has the edge. I do expect Sakic to be put onto the list relatively quickly but can't see Trottier going behind Sakic.

 

[bobholly39]

Joe Sakic's consistency as a top 20 scorer

Points finishes listed:

1989-90: 10th
1991-91: 6th
1991-92: 14th
1992-93: 17th
1993-94: 19th
1994-95: 4th
1995-96: 3rd
1996-97: missed 17 games, but 11th in points-per-game
1997-98: missed 18 games, but 17th in points-per-game
1998-99: 5th
1999-00: 8th
2000-01: 2nd
2001-02: 5th
2002-03: missed 24 games, but 16th in points-per-game
2003-04: 2nd
2005-06: 17th
2006-07: 6th

For 17 straight seasons, Sakic was either top 20 in points or top 20 in points per game

Are top 20 finishes really that impressive? I get you're just trying to show the full picture and so it's good to have - but in a lot of those seasons they're actually pretty disappointing ones, and probably not super relevant.

He has a lot of top 10 finishes which to me I care more about.

I'm not saying Sakic has to go in this round, though he may. But I sure hope I don't see any clamoring for a Sakic vs. Yzerman round or voting against Sakic on that basis. That should really be "settled law" by now.

I agree but you technically said no Bossy before Cook in an earlier post =/

 

[ResilientBeast]

Are top 20 finishes really that impressive? I get you're just trying to show the full picture and so it's good to have - but in a lot of those seasons they're actually pretty disappointing ones, and probably not super relevant.

He has a lot of top 10 finishes which to me I care more about.



I agree but you technically said no Bossy before Cook in an earlier post =/

I'm not sure what Bossy has on Cook.

I agree with 70s Cook should go in first

 

[seventieslord]

I agree but you technically said no Bossy before Cook in an earlier post =/

Let me be clear... Bossy doesn't compare well to any forwards in this round.

 

[bobholly39]

Let me be clear... Bossy doesn't compare well to any forwards in this round.

i look forward to discussing him here. I probably don't disagree with you at first glance - but he does have some pretty strong positives in his resume. I remember you seemed pretty low on Ovechkin last round so I could see feeling that way about Bossy.

His playoffs are pretty strong - and i'd like to have some context applied to his goal-scoring in the regular season. On the one hand - it's staggering. On the other - he's like a child vs Gretzky in head to head. Not fully sure how I feel about it.

 

[blogofmike]

I'm not sure what Bossy has on Cook.

I agree with 70s Cook should go in first

Playoffs.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Playoffs.

Three straight 17 goal playoffs (almost a goal a game each season) is amazing. However, he only led the playoffs in points once.
Bossy's resume smacks of a one-trick pony who happened to have an amazing trick - he was an incredible, incredible goal scorer. Competition was tough in the 80's, though, and he only led the league in goals twice despite being known as a lamp-lighter. If you want to play the Gretzky card, Bossy still would have won the pre-Maurice Richard Trophy only two more times, and would have a single Art Ross Trophy (the same as his line-mate Trottier).