Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
• A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, December 7th at midnight and continue through Sunday, December 9th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, December 10th.


Vote 6 Candidates

• Bobby Clarke
• Bryan Trottier
• Cyclone Taylor
• Glenn Hall
• Joe Sakic
• Martin Brodeur
• Mike Bossy
• Phil Esposito
• Sergei Makarov
• Terry Sawchuk
• Viacheslav Fetisov

Click to read more...

 

[The Macho King]

Nice adds.

Interesting discussions this round:

Trottier v. Clarke
Fetisov v. Makarov
Bossy v. Trottier/Potvin

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

First impressions: Slava Fetisov, Sergei Makarov, and Glenn Hall are locks for my top 5. Brodeur starts there too, but could fall out, if good arguments are made for certain forwards.

Mike Bossy an option over Bill Cook? Terrible. We spent a long time on the wingers project deciding which order to place Lafleur, Makarov, and Cook, with Bossy a clear step below. And Cook isn't even an option, one round after Lafleur gets in? Heck, why is Taylor an option before Cook?

I still prefer Sakic to Clarke, but that could change. Prefer both to Trottier, and doubt it changes. Prefer Trottier to Bossy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

REPOST FROM THE HOH TOP NON-NHL EUROPEANS PROJECT AND LAST ROUND

The Case for Slava Fetisov as the best non-NHL European hockey player of All-Time

A. He was easily the best Soviet Defenseman of all-time, as shown by Player of the Year voting:

Top 5 finishes for "best player of the season," defensemen only:

Fetisov: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5
Vasiliev: 3, 5
Pervukhin: 5, 5
Ragulin: 5
Kasatonov: 5

(I had to recalculate these because the original table by @Theokritos was destroyed in the site migration).

(Note that the Soviet Player of the Year award existed from 1968-1990)

B. Best awards record at the World Championships of any Player at any position

1. Voted Directorate Best Defenseman 5 Times (1978, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1989)

• Jiri Holecek - Directorate Best Goaltender 5 Times (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978) is the only other player who was voted best at his position more than 3 times.
• Players who won the Directorate award at his position 3 times: Directorate Best Defenseman: Vasiliev (1973, 1977, 1979) and Sologubov (1956, 1957, 1960) Directorate Best Forward: Firsov (1967, 1968, 1971) and Maltsev (1970, 1972, 1981). Diretorate Best Goaltender: Tretiak (1974, 1979, 1983)

2. Voted Media All-Star Defenseman 9 Times (1978, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991)

• Note that there were no WCs in the Olympic years of 1984 and 1988. Fetisov was an All-Star in every World Championships held between 1982 and 1991 (plus 1978).
• Most Times All-Star Forward: 8 (Makarov - All-Star in Every WC Between 1979 and 1989)
• 2nd Most Times All-Star Defenseman: 5 (Vasiliev, Ragulin, Kasatonov)

C. Recieved more votes for the IIHF All-Time All-Star Team than any other player

Out of 56 voters:
Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak (Soviet Union) 30 votes
First defenceman: Viacheslav Fetisov (Soviet Union) 54 votes
Second defenceman: Börje Salming (Sweden) 17 votes
First winger: Valeri Kharlamov (Soviet Union) 21 votes
Second winger: Sergei Makarov (Soviet Union) 18 votes
Centre: Wayne Gretzky (Canada) 38 votes
IIHF Centennial All-Star Team - Wikipedia

D. Offensive dominance

• Led the Soviet league in scoring by a defenseman in 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1988. 2nd in 1983, 1985, 1989.
• Led 3 straight Olympic games in scoring by a defenseman (1980, 1984, 1988).
• 2nd in defenseman scoring (to Kasatonov then Bourque) in the 1981 and 1987 Canada Cups (didn't play in 1984).

E. Easily the best European defenseman of all-time. Whereas there really isn't a consensus best non-NHL European or goalie.

• I've seen all of Kharlamov, Firsov, Makarov, Maltsev, and Mikhailov argued as the best Soviet forward of all time.
• In North America, Tretiak is usually the only non-NHL goalie talked about, but there is a contingent in Europe who prefers Jiri Holecek. Indeed, Holecek's awards record at the World Championships when both were in their primes at the same time is a lot better.
• On the other hand, no other defenseman touches Fetisov. Jan Suchy might have peaked as high, but his prime was very short. Vasiliev, who does have a full career, was never as highly thought of as Fetisov.

F. Contribution to Team Success

• Fetisov was the long-serving captain of both CSKA and the Soviet National Team at a time when the teams were the most dominant they ever were.
• His teams won 11 Soviet League championships, 11 European Cups, 2 Olympic Golds, 7 World Championship Golds, and 1 Canada Cup

G. Was talked about as the best (non-Gretzky) player in the World in the NORTH AMERICAN media. I don't think the same could be said about any other non-NHL European at any time. (Kharlamov is probably the closest, but I don't think many North American really thought he was better than Phil Esposito or Guy Lafleur).

The following quotes are all in the Fetisov profile linked to previously. I'm focusing on specific instances of him being referred to as "the best player in the world" or the "best defenseman in the world" from North American sources.

Viacheslav Fetisov, the Soviet Union's premier defenseman and generally regarded by hockey people everywhere as the world's best defenseman.

Yesterday, a tremendous young Russian defenseman named Vyachesav Fetisov waited patiently for Gretzky to finish his bluff, then blithely skated off with the puck. Fetisov was a tower of strength all day, a fact that stunned us Canadians who had been contemptuous until now of Russian defensemen ("Can never learn to get it out of their own end").

(emphasis mine)

Viacheslav Fetisov, 24, is the star of the Soviet defense and the team captain for the tour. He stands 6-1 and 198, and is sometimes called "the Bobby Orr of Europe". Edmonton's Wayne Gretzky says Fetisov is the best defensemen he has ever played against.

If you can look past the red of his uniform, Fetisov may be the closest thing you'll ever see to Bobby Orr. In one particular sequence, he was skating so fast with the puck backwards that none of the Flyers could catch him.

Although both teams are coming off shutouts, the Soviets hold a strong defensive edge with the pairing of Viacheslav Fetisov and Alexsei Kasatonov, not so arguably the best defensive pairing ever to play the game. And, despite what you read about Wayne Gretzky, many people outside Alberta consider Fetisov to be the hands-down best all-around player in the world. Some even compare him to Bobby Orr.

Vyacheslav Fetisov, the giant Soviet defenseman who is regarded as the best in the world at that position, isn't in the latest Canada Cup lineup. He's suffering from an ankle injury..

He (Wayne Gretzky) said that Fetisov was excellent both offensively and defensively.

Defenseman Viacheslav Fetisov, considered by many the best defenseman in the world, broke his leg...

The 27-year-old defenseman was generally regarded as the best hockey player in the world last year... normally a hard-hitting but clean player...

You just don't find this level of respect from North Americans about any other non-NHL European

H. More anecdotal descriptions of his play style, plus praise from NHL players

See this profile: ATD 2012 Bios Thread (as complete as possible: pic, quotes, stats, sources, etc)

 

[ResilientBeast]

Yes! Taylor has finally become available

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

REPOST FROM LAST ROUND

Posts about Brodeur, Hall, and Sawchuk from the HOH Top Goalies project (mostly links)

Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall from Sports Illustrated (if you only click on one link in this post, click on this one):
Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

One thing I take away is how often the 60s Chicago Blackhawks are described as a "run and gun" team. Relevant to this project, it really helps explain how Hall was the one who broke the mold of "1st Team All Star = lowest GAA."

Relevant to future projects, it really helps put the offensive stats of Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita into perspective.

Hall clearly the best regular season goalie of his era (11 time 1st or 2nd Team All-Star!!!):

Hall was clearly regarded as the best goalie of his era if we look at Hart voting. Additionally, if we look at his all-star voting record (7 first all-star selections and 11 total; Sawchuk and Plante both have 3 first and 7 total), Hall again distinguishes himself from his peers. Eleven all-star nods in fourteen seasons is a staggering level of high-quality consistency, almost on par with Howe and Bourque (the epitome of high quality consistency at their respective positions). This presents a strong prima facie case that Hall should be ranked higher than Sawchuk and Plante.

However, this assumption could be overcome if we demonstrate that 1) the Hart and all-star voters ranked Hall too high and/or 2) Hall has a weaker playoff resume than the others. I haven't seen any support for the first point (in fact, there's an interesting linksuggesting that Hall is really the only goalie from 1935 to 1970 to beat the "best GAA = best goalie" mindest which shows that, if anything, the people who watched Hall play looked deeper than the conventional statistics). Overpass had a great post showing that Hall was a fairly weak playoff performer*. Is that enough to offset Hall's clearly superior regular season performance? I'm not sure, that's why I'm throwing the question out there.

Hall would have been my #1 LAST round if it weren't for the playoffs. See the posts below on his playoffs - he wasn't terrible (better career stats than Sawchuk...) but probably should have been better.

Glenn Hall in the playoffs

For what it's worth, Hall actually has a 91.3% career playoff save percentage, as documented in Klein & Reif's "The Hockey Compendium" (2001 edition), compared to Plante's 92.2% and Sawchuk's 91.4%.

Glenn Hall in the playoffs summary 1956-1967: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Falling behind in the first period was a major problem for Hall and his teammates. It looks like the skaters should receive a bit more blame for their inability to score, but Hall could have performed better as well.

Hall struggled when his team had fallen behind, performing the worst in these situations in both the second and third period. Considering that his team tended to fall behind, this was a bad combination.

Hall played well with the lead - he just didn't get a lead very often.

The team had mixed results with the score tied. They struggled in the second period but did well in the third - but the difference was almost entirely because the skaters could score in the third but not the second. Hall's individual stats were stronger in the second than in the third when tied, and were about average overall.


Overall it's clear Hall had a bit of an uphill battle much of the time. His teams tended to be outshot by their opponents and he would have had to win the goaltending battle for his team to have a chance. He didn't do so often enough.

Glenn Hall in the playoffs year by year: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Overall, it looks as if Hall had more shaky playoff performances than strong playoff performances. He had some tough matchups in the late 1950s against the dynasty Canadiens, but other than that his teams lost some very winnable series.

One thing to consider is that his teams were almost always outshot, so there's certainly blame to go around

Sawchuk's mediocrity after his 5 year peak:

When Goalie's World did their all-time goalie ranking in 2000, they said their biggest argument against Sawchuck being #1 is that he was never a 1st All-star after Hall and Plante were in the NHL.

Sawchuck first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (15 years, from 55-56 on)
345 games 199 wins 57 shutouts 1.94 GAA 3 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 3 Cups
626 games 248 wins 46 shutouts 2.82 GAA 0 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 1 Vezina 1 Cup

Plante first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (11 years, from 59-60 on)
331 games 187 wins 44 shutouts 2.02 GAA 2 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 4 Vezina 5 Cups
506 games 250 wins 38 shutouts 2.61 GAA 1 1st A-S 2 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 1 Cup

Hall first 5 (full) years vs rest of career (11 years, from 60-61 on)
358 games 154 wins 31 shutouts 2.52 GAA 3 1st A-S 1 2nd A-S 0 Vezina 0 Cups
548 games 253 wins 53 shutouts 2.48 GAA 4 1st A-S 3 2nd A-S 3 Vezina 1 Cup

Regular season dynasty years (1950-51 to 1954-55)
195-78-65 W-L-T
56 shutouts
3 1st Team All Stars; 2 2nd Team All Stars
+186.8 Goals Versus Threshold (+38.6 +38.6, +34.3, +41.0, +34.3)

Regular season rest of career
252-252-107 W-L-T
47 shutouts
2 2nd Team All Stars
+55.1 Goals Versus Threshold

Playoffs dynasty years
28-17
8 shutouts
3 Cups in 5 years
+6.4 Goals Versus Threshold (-15.3, +13.7, -3.9,, +6.9, +5.0)

Playoffs rest of career
26-31
4 shutouts
-10.2 Goals Versus Threshold

Detailed look at the playoffs of Sawchuk:
Sawchuk 1951 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
Sawchuk 1952 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
Sawchuk 1953 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
Sawchuk 1954 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
Sawchuk 1955 playoffs: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Did Sawchuk lack stamina?
The awards voters voted twice during the O6 period - at the halfway point and at the end of the season. Most of Sawchuk's recognition after the dynasty came in first half of the season votes; he received very little recognition at the end of the season: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

The case for Sawchuk

The case for Terry Sawchuk is pretty straightforward. Peak and career. He had an incredible five year run after breaking into the NHL, to the point where he was considered the greatest goaltender ever by many after those five seasons. And while the rest of his career was up and down due to his alcoholism and injury issues, he still set the all-time record for wins and shutouts.

I'm not sure that Sawchuk's peak has been fully discussed yet. Comtemporary observers wrote about his performance in the early 50s like we write about Hasek in the late 90s.

The effects of modern goalie competition (1 year wonders + Europeans) on Brodeur's trophy case:
Brodeur actual All-Star Teams = 3 First Teams, 4 Second Teams.
Brodeur no Europeans = 9 First Teams, 1 Second Teams.
Brodeur no Europeans or Americans = 10 First Teams, 1 Second Teams.

Full post on why is significantly more difficult to repeat as the top goalie in the modern league than it was in the original 6: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
Full post on Brodeur's awards recognition in a league without Europeans: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

The effects of NJ's historically stingy shot counter on Brodeur's save percentages:
Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
Summary - His Vezina year save percentage rankings of 3, 8, 13, 14 skyrocket to 1, 2, 4, 6 if we only look at road save percentages

More on the difference in shotcounting between arenas: Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Brodeur 2012 playoffs
Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

 

[MXD]

My first reactions are :

- This isn't exactly the group I wanted (and I really expected Robinson, even if I wouldn't have ranked him super high).
- I MIGHT not be NR'ing Terry Sawchuk. Unbelieveable
- Bill Cook was ahead of Mike Bossy in the wingers project, yet Mike Bossy is eligible before Cook.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Glenn Hall = the Gordie Howe or Ray Bourque of goaltenders in terms of consistently being voted top 2 at his position?

Most times 1st or 2nd Team All-Star Goalie:

Glenn Hall 11
Frank Brimsek 8
Terry Sawchuk 7
Jacques Plante 7
Bill Durnan 6
Ken Dryden 6
Dominik Hasek 6
Patrick Roy 6
Martin Brodeur 6

Added: Most times 1st Team All-Star Goalie

Glenn Hall 7
Dominik Hasek 6
Bill Durnan 6
Ken Dryden 5
Patrick Roy 4

Now, competition for goalie is definitely tougher in a 30 team league, with the chance of a hot one-year wonder vastly increasing. But Hall's record vs his contemporaries is still very strong. And Hall's competition (including prime Plante and post-prime Sawchuk among other HHOFers) was definitely stronger than Brimsek and especially Durnan faced.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

- Bill Cook was ahead of Mike Bossy in the wingers project, yet Mike Bossy is eligible before Cook.

Ahead of Bossy by a landslide. I feel Bossy is more comparable to Ted Lindsay.

 

[The Macho King]

First impressions: Slava Fetisov, Sergei Makarov, and Glenn Hall are locks for my top 5. Brodeur starts there too, but could fall out, if good arguments are made for certain forwards.

Mike Bossy an option over Bill Cook? Terrible. We spent a long time on the wingers project deciding which order to place Lafleur, Makarov, and Cook, with Bossy a clear step below. And Cook isn't even an option, one round after Lafleur gets in? Heck, why is Taylor an option before Cook?

I still prefer Sakic to Clarke, but that could change. Prefer both to Trottier, and doubt it changes. Prefer Trottier to Bossy.

My gut instinct is Bossy or Sawchuk will be my NR player here (going with my tendency to dislike one-way wingers in general, but also I just don't think he has a very good case this round).

Sakic and Trottier seem to me as insanely close comparisons. Both put up good offense, have a Hart, and are known for two-way play. I think Sakic might have a Selke (can't remember off-hand), and if I recall Trottier doesn't, but at the same time Trottier has a Ross and Sakic doesn't (although just barely). Playoffs are obviously pretty much a wash if not a slight edge to Trottier.

Sakic might have a slight edge in longevity, but I don't think it's a huge one. Big knocks on Trottier v. Sakic is Trottier had Potvin and Bossy to help him out, while Sakic didn't have the same level of winger/D support to help him produce (although did get to play with Forsberg on the PP if I remember). Both teams dominated during rather lean years in competition (DPE had the top teams of the Avs, Stars, RW, and Devils, with some second-tier "okay" teams like the Caps and Flyers, but the league depth was pretty abysmal - Islanders period has rapid expansion, although by the last couple of years of their dynasty the talent level was picking up with more Euros and WHA adds).

I think they're pretty close. Personal preference at the moment is Trottier, but a lot of that is just because he's one of my favorite players for a reason I have a hard time articulating.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Fetisov, Brodeur, and Hall are locks for me. First 2 were last round already.

Makarov will almost surely be 4th or 5th.

Congrats to Sawchuk. Bossy's inclusion means he won't get NR'd this time.

4th-9th will be pretty fluid for me.

I hope to help add a good deal on Cyclone Taylor this go.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Fetisov, Brodeur, and Hall are locks for me. First 2 were last round already.

Makarov will almost surely be 4th or 5th.

Congrats to Sawchuk. Bossy's inclusion means he won't get NR'd this time.

4th-9th will be pretty fluid for me.

I hope to help add a good deal on Cyclone Taylor this go.

I haven't been as active lately (I of course have been voting), but Taylor brings me back in to the fold.

 

[seventieslord]

No bossy before Cook. I'm not budging on that.

 

[Batis]

Here is a somewhat upgraded version of my preliminary discussion post about Sergei Makarov.

Regular season offence:

It was recently discussed what Makarovs scoring dominance in the Soviet League roughly translates to compared to the NHL and most things seems to suggest that Makarovs regular season dominance offensively would put him in the 102.2-108.3 range when it comes to 7-year VsX.

Great work. Your adjusted 7-year VsX for Makarov is very close to the range (102.2-108.3) where I estimate his score to be. If we look at how high the second highest scoring player from any of the countries which made up the Soviet Union (A Russian in every season but one) has ranked among Canadian players in the NHL-scoring race from the first season (92/93) that the majority of the top former Soviet players played in the league and had at least one year of adjustment time under their belt we can see that the second highest scoring "former Soviet" player in modern times on average has fallen somewhere between the sixth and the seventh highest scoring Canadian player. Since I consider the Soviet hockey of the 80´s to have been on a somewhat higher level than modern Russian hockey I decided that assuming that the second highest scoring Soviet on average was as good as the sixth highest scoring Canadian would be more accurate. So what I did was that I looked at how Makarovs 7-year Vs2 in the Soviet League compared to some all time great players 7-year Vs6 among Canadian players only. While I made some changes to the system I took the inspiration for doing this from this post from Seventieslord. ATD 2017 Draft Thread I

Makarovs 7-year Vs2 in the Soviet League is 123.1. And this is how some of the forwards who have cases for being in the 5-20 range all-time does when it comes to 7-year Vs6 among Canadians. (Only post-consolidation numbers for Morenz)

Mikita 124.6
Beliveau 124.5
Crosby 123.4
Richard 122.8
Hull 121.8
Lafleur 117.5
Morenz 114.9

Makarov compares very well to any of them and considering that all of these players are in the 102.2-108.3 range when it comes to 7-year VsX I think that this range is a good estimate for Makarov as well.

Yes it is definitely encouraging when different methods gives similar results and I would also agree that Makarov probably belongs closer to the top of that range for the reasons that you bring up here.

For transparency of the method here is how the second highest scoring "former Soviet" player ranked among Canadians each season from 92/93 and onwards.

92/93: 8th (P.Bure)
93/94: Tied for 4th (P.Bure)
94/95: Tied for 9th (S.Fedorov)
95/96: 6th (A.Mogilny/S.Fedorov tied)
96/97: 15th (A.Mogilny)
97/98: 8th (A.Yashin)
98/99: 10th (D.Khristich)
99/00: 7th (V.Bure)
00/01: 3rd (P.Bure)
01/02: Tied for 6th (A.Yashin)
02/03: 7th (A.Mogilny)
03/04: Tied for 10th (P.Datsyuk)
05/06: 5th (I.Kovalchuk)
06/07: Tied for 10th (P.Datsyuk)
07/08: 1st (Y.Malkin)
08/09: 1st (A.Ovechkin)
09/10: 6th (I.Kovalchuk)
10/11: Tied for 27th (I.Kovalchuk)
11/12: 4th (I.Kovalchuk)
12/13: Tied for 7th (P.Datsyuk)
13/14: 10th (Y.Malkin)
14/15: Tied for 5th (V.Tarasenko)
15/16: 4th (A.Panarin/Y.Kuznetsov tied)
16/17: 6th (V.Tarasenko)
17/18: 3rd (Y.Malkin)

The median score is 6 and if we take out the outliers (i:e the two best seasons where the second highest scoring "former Soviet" was 1st among Canadians and the two worst seasons where they ranked outside of the top 10) the average score is 6.57. Another reason for why I consider it more likely that the 2nd highest scoring Soviet is roughly equal to the 6th highest scoring Canadian rather than the 7th is that in the majority of the seasons here the "former Soviet" player had more points than the Canadian scorer who in reality was in the position that the Soviet occupied. To take an example in 95/96 Mogilny and Fedorov ranked 6th among Canadians with 107 points while the actual 6th highest scoring Canadian Gretzky was 5 points behind them with 102. In this case the 2nd highest Soviet scorer was closer to the 5th highest scoring Canadian (Kariya, 108 points) than they were to the actual 6th Canadian scorer.

Using Gabriel Desjardins' "league equivalencies" (here) to adjust for league strength, and the VsX benchmarks here:

Season	Makarov	Benchmark	Notes	VsX (PTS/GP)	VsX adj.	Adj. GP	NHL PTS (est.)
1980	1.55	1.22	#3 (Mikhailov)	127.0	115.6	80	138
1981	1.61	1.39	#2 (Kasputin)	115.8	105.4	80	142
1982	1.63	1.51	#2 (Kozhevnikov)	107.9	98.2	78	141
1983	1.4	1.4	#2 (Makarov)	100.0	91.0	55	85
1984	1.66	1.28	Top 6	129.7	118.0	80	143
1985	1.63	1.33	#2 (Krutov)	122.6	111.5	80	151
1986	1.55	1.3	#2 (Larionov)	119.2	108.5	80	153
1987	1.33	1.28	#2 (Krutov)	103.9	94.6	80	102
1988	1.33	1.19	#2 (Sukhanov)	111.8	101.7	80	133
1989	1.23	1.17	#2 (Krutov, *fudge*)	105.1	95.7	80	133
TOTALS	773	1321
7-year VsX	119.2
w/ league adj. (x0.91)	108.4
10-year VsX	114.3
w/ league adj. (x0.91)	104.0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Without Gretzky in the mix, Makarov probably wins the Art Ross the bolded years with roughly those point totals. It's possible for 1979-80 to still go to Dionne given that it's basically a lucky bounce or two from going either way. Either way, I suspect that it's four or five Art Ross wins for Makarov without Gretzky.
Also, I noticed an anomaly for 1988-89 where the VsX benchmark would have gone to #3 (0.93 PTS/GP) under standard VsX rules, but it's such a drop that I decided to go "fudge it" (or something that sounds vaguely like that) leave the benchmark as #2. It's pretty unlikely that Makarov had his best season when it was his actual weakest season in the Soviet league.

So where does that leave us over the 80's?

Rk	Player	GP	PTS	PTS/GP
1	Wayne Gretzky*	774	1837	2.37
2	Sergei Makarov (est.)	773	1321	1.71
3	Peter Stastny*	675	986	1.46
4	Marcel Dionne*	729	980	1.34
5	Jari Kurri*	676	950	1.41
6	Denis Savard*	676	933	1.38
7	Bernie Federko*	750	914	1.22
8	Mike Bossy*	599	909	1.52
9	Bryan Trottier*	755	905	1.20
10	Michel Goulet*	756	901	1.19

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

International scoring:

This is how Makarov did scoringwise in major and minor international tournaments compared to Soviet and Czechoslovakian players.

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1978/79 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy, Rude Pravo Cup)
1. Vladimir Petrov 14 gp, 11 g, 11 a, 22 pts
2. Valery Kharlamov 14 gp, 9 g, 11 a, 20 pts
3. Sergey Kapustin 15 gp, 12 g, 6 a, 18 pts
3. Helmuts Balderis 15 gp, 9 g, 9 a, 18 pts
3. Boris Mikhailov 14 gp, 8 g, 10 a, 18 pts
6. Bohuslav Ebermann 15 gp, 11 g, 5 a, 16 pts
7. Sergey Makarov 15 gp, 10 g, 5 a, 15 pts
7. Alexander Golikov 14 gp, 7 g, 8 a, 15 pts
9. Viktor Zhluktov 15 gp, 9 g, 5 a, 14 pts
9. Vladimir Martinec 14 gp, 5 g, 9 a, 14 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1979/80 (WOG, Izvestia Trophy, Rude Pravo Cup, Sweden Cup)
1. Peter Stastny 18 gp, 12 g, 13 a, 25 pts
1. Sergey Makarov 19 gp, 12 g, 13 a, 25 pts
3. Alexander Golikov 15 gp, 12 g, 12 a, 24 pts
4. Valery Kharlamov 19 gp, 8 g, 15 a, 23 pts
5. Boris Mikhailov 19 gp, 10 g, 11 a, 21 pts
6. Milan Novy 18 gp, 10 g, 9 a, 19 pts
7. Jaroslav Pouzar 18 gp, 9 g, 9 a, 18 pts
7. Anton Stastny 18 gp, 8 g, 10 a, 18 pts
7. Viktor Zhluktov 15 gp, 7 g, 11 a, 18 pts
10. Marian Stastny 14 gp, 9 g, 8 a, 17 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1980/81 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Alexander Maltsev 11 gp, 8 g, 10 a, 18 pts
2. Vladimir Golikov 12 gp, 8 g, 6 a, 14 pts
2. Nikolay Drozdetsky 11 gp, 6 g, 8 a, 14 pts
4. Viktor Shalimov 12 gp, 8 g, 5 a, 13 pts
5. Sergey Shepelev 12 gp, 8 g, 4 a, 12 pts
5. Vladimir Krutov 12 gp, 7 g, 5 a, 12 pts
7. Sergey Makarov 12 gp, 5 g, 6 a, 11 pts
7. Viktor Zhluktov 12 gp, 4 g, 7 a, 11 pts
9. Jiri Lala 12 gp, 7 g, 3 a, 10 pts
9. Vladimir Martinec 12 gp, 5 g, 5 a, 10 pts
9. Vladimir Petrov 8 gp, 4 g, 6 a, 10 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1981/82 (WHC, Canada Cup, Izvestia Trophy, Rude Pravo Cup)
1. Sergey Makarov 29 gp, 15 g, 16 a, 31 pts
2. Sergey Shepelev 29 gp, 17 g, 7 a, 24 pts
2. Viktor Shalimov 28 gp, 13 g, 11 a, 24 pts
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 29 gp, 5 g, 19 a, 24 pts
5. Vladimir Krutov 25 gp, 12 g, 10 a, 22 pts
6. Igor Larionov 29 gp, 13 g, 8 a, 21 pts
7. Sergey Kapustin 22 gp, 8 g, 12 a, 20 pts
8. Jiri Lala 28 gp, 14 g, 5 a, 19 pts
8. Jindrich Kokrment 27 gp, 9 g, 10 a, 19 pts
10. Aleksey Kasatonov 29 gp, 3 g, 15 a, 18 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1982/83 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy, Rude Pravo Cup)
1. Vladimir Krutov 18 gp, 17 g, 8 a, 25 pts
1. Darius Rusnak 18 gp, 14 g, 11 a, 25 pts
3. Igor Liba 19 gp, 10 g, 13 a, 23 pts
4. Sergey Makarov 12 gp, 13 g, 9 a, 22 pts
5. Jiri Lala 19 gp, 10 g, 10 a, 20 pts
6. Igor Larionov 19 gp, 6 g, 13 a, 19 pts
7. Aleksey Kasatonov 20 gp, 2 g, 16 a, 18 pts
8. Vincent Lukac 18 gp, 12 g, 3 a, 15 pts
8. Vyacheslav Fetisov 20 gp, 5 g, 10 a, 15 pts
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 20 gp, 8 g, 5 a, 13 pts
10. Viktor Zhluktov 18 gp, 4 g, 9 a, 13 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1983/84 (WOG, Izvestia Trophy, Sweden Cup)
1. Nikolay Drozdetsky 14 gp, 12 g, 6 a, 18 pts
1. Sergey Makarov 14 gp, 8 g, 10 a, 18 pts
3. Vyacheslav Fetisov 14 gp, 6 g, 11 a, 17 pts
4. Viktor Tyumenev 14 gp, 3 g, 13 a, 16 pts
5. Vladimir Ruzicka 14 gp, 7 g, 7 a, 14 pts
6. Darius Rusnak 14 gp, 6 g, 7 a, 13 pts
6. Vincent Lukac 14 gp, 6 g, 7 a, 13 pts
8. Jiri Hrdina 13 gp, 6 g, 6 a, 12 pts
8. Alexander Kozhevnikov 10 gp, 8 g, 4 a, 12 pts
10. Vladimir Krutov 14 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts
10. Igor Liba 14 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts
10. Aleksey Kasatonov 14 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1984/85 (WHC, Canada Cup, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Sergey Makarov 20 gp, 18 g, 11 a, 29 pts
2. Vladimir Krutov 20 gp, 9 g, 17 a, 26 pts
3. Vyacheslav Fetisov 14 gp, 9 g, 10 a, 19 pts
3. Aleksey Kasatonov 19 gp, 9 g, 10 a, 19 pts
5. Mikhail Varnakov 20 gp, 11 g, 7 a, 18 pts
6. Jiri Lala 19 gp, 10 g, 6 a, 16 pts
6. Sergey Svetlov 20 gp, 8 g, 8 a, 16 pts
6. Igor Liba 19 gp, 7 g, 9 a, 16 pts
9. Vincent Lukac 17 gp, 8 g, 7 a, 15 pts
10. Nikolay Drozdetsky 14 gp, 6 g, 8 a, 14 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1985/86 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Vladimir Krutov 14 gp, 10 g, 11 a, 21 pts
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 14 gp, 8 g, 11 a, 19 pts
2. Sergey Makarov 14 gp, 5 g, 14 a, 19 pts
4. Vladimir Ruzicka 14 gp, 7 g, 11 a, 18 pts
5. Jiri Hrdina 14 gp, 8 g, 8 a, 16 pts
6. Igor Larionov 14 gp, 9 g, 5 a, 14 pts
7. Vyacheslav Bykov 10 gp, 6 g, 6 a, 12 pts
8. Petr Rosol 14 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts
9. Dusan Pasek 14 gp, 6 g, 3 a, 9 pts
10. Aleksey Kasatonov 14 gp, 4 g, 4 a, 8 pts
10. Igor Liba 13 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts
10. Darius Rusnak 14 gp, 2 g, 6 a, 8 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1986/87 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy, Calgary Cup)
1. Sergey Makarov 18 gp, 8 g, 12 a, 20 pts
1. Igor Larionov 18 gp, 7 g, 13 a, 20 pts
3. Vladimir Krutov 17 gp, 12 g, 6 a, 18 pts
4. Jiri Hrdina 18 gp, 9 g, 8 a, 17 pts
5. Dusan Pasek 18 gp, 9 g, 7 a, 16 pts
6. Vyacheslav Bykov 16 gp, 6 g, 9 a, 15 pts
7. Vyacheslav Fetisov 18 gp, 4 g, 10 a, 14 pts
8. Andrey Khomutov 17 gp, 8 g, 5 a, 13 pts
9. Valery Kamensky 14 gp, 8 g, 4 a, 12 pts
9. Jiri Dolezal 17 gp, 4 g, 8 a, 12 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1987/88 (WOG, Canada Cup, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Vladimir Krutov 22 gp, 15 g, 17 a, 32 pts
1. Sergey Makarov 22 gp, 12 g, 20 a, 32 pts
3. Vyacheslav Fetisov 22 gp, 6 g, 16 a, 22 pts
4. Igor Larionov 22 gp, 6 g, 12 a, 18 pts
4. Vyacheslav Bykov 21 gp, 5 g, 13 a, 18 pts
6. Andrey Khomutov 22 gp, 7 g, 10 a, 17 pts
7. Dusan Pasek 14 gp, 10 g, 6 a, 16 pts
8. Sergey Svetlov 18 gp, 8 g, 7 a, 15 pts
8. Aleksey Kasatonov 21 gp, 5 g, 10 a, 15 pts
8. Igor Liba 19 gp, 4 g, 11 a, 15 pts
8. Andrey Lomakin 22 gp, 3 g, 12 a, 15 pts

Major and Minor International Tournaments 1988/89 (WHC, Izvestia Trophy)
1. Sergey Makarov 14 gp, 8 g, 9 a, 17 pts
2. Vladimir Krutov 14 gp, 8 g, 6 a, 14 pts
2. Vladimir Ruzicka 10 gp, 7 g, 7 a, 14 pts
2. Vyacheslav Bykov 14 gp, 7 g, 7 a, 14 pts
5. Andrey Khomutov 14 gp, 5 g, 7 a, 12 pts
6. Valery Kamensky 14 gp, 5 g, 5 a, 10 pts
6. Vladimir Svitek 10 gp, 4 g, 6 a, 10 pts
8. Sergey Fedorov 10 gp, 6 g, 3 a, 9 pts
8. Vyacheslav Fetisov 14 gp, 3 g, 6 a, 9 pts
10. Zdeno Ciger 10 gp, 2 g, 5 a, 7 pts

Since I also wanted to analyze the numbers posted by the the top players I decided to take a look at how they compared to the field (the average score of the 2nd-10th scorer) over their 5 strongest seasons.

5-season Vs2-10 average among Soviet and Czechoslovakian players in Major and Minor International Tournaments during the 64/65-88/89 time frame:

1. Sergey Makarov: 154.4
2. Anatoly Firsov: 153.5
3. Valery Kharlamov: 147.6
4. Vladimir Krutov: 145.6
5. Alexander Maltsev: 144.7
6. Boris Mikhailov: 144.1
7. Vladimir Petrov: 140.7
8. Vyacheslav Fetisov: 119.1
9. Vladimir Vikulov: 118.7
10. Vladimir Martinec: 118.0
11. Vaclav Nedomansky: 115.4
12. Igor Larionov: 105.5
13. Vyacheslav Starshinov: 99.6
14. Alexander Yakushev: 98.7
15. Ivan Hlinka: 98.5

The players who fits in the first tier when it comes statistical performance in major and minor international tournaments among Soviet and Czechoslovakian players are in my opinion Makarov, Firsov and Kharlamov. While Makarovs five best years may only have been marginally stronger than Firsovs when it comes to dominance over the field Makarov was clearly the most consistent point producer of all as evidenced by him finishing first or tied for first in scoring a record number of 7 times and finishing top 7 in scoring in all 11 season between 78/79 and 88/89. It is however clear that while Makarov was the most dominant Soviet player compared to his peers internationally as well it is not quite as clearcut as it is domestically. I would say that Firsov probably had the statistically most impressive consecutive stretch of any player in 66/67-70/71 when he was the leading scorer 4 times and finished third the other year. Kharlamovs 70/71-75/76 stretch is also very impressive especially when it is taken into account that the 70´s quality-wise was the height of the Soviet-Czechoslovakian rivalry with both countries having a truly great generation of players.

Voting records:

Soviet player of the year voting:

To keep going on the subject Soviet player of the year voting shares here is how Kharlamov and the other 70's forwards compares to all Soviet forwards.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.747
2. Anatoly Firsov 0.650
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.630
4. Valery Kharlamov 0.628
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.592
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.434
7. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.432
8. Vladimir Petrov 0.411
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.304
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.303

5-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.660
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.522
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.469
5. Anatoly Firsov 0.418
6. Boris Mikhailov 0.358
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.287
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.264 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Helmuts Balderis 0.192
10. Vyacheslav Bykov 0.189

7-year average
1. Sergey Makarov 0.551
2. Valery Kharlamov 0.440
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4. Alexander Maltsev 0.383
5. Boris Mikhailov 0.316
6. Anatoly Firsov 0.299 (Only recieved votes in 5 seasons)
7. Vladimir Petrov 0.218
8. Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.189 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9. Igor Larionov 0.144
10. Alexander Yakushev 0.140

1. Sergey Makarov: Being the clear leader in all of the 3-, 5- and 7-year averages makes Makarov a pretty easy choice as the forward with the most impressive SPOTY voting record. When including the Izvestia golden stick voting from 78/79 Makarov recieved votes in 12 straight seasons starting at age 19 in 77/78 and keeping the streak going for the rest of his career in Europe. Makarovs peak voting share of 0.871 from 84/85 is the 3rd strongest single season voting share among forwards behind only Krutovs 0.985 from 86/87 and Firsovs 0.895 from 67/68. Additionally Makarovs second strongest single season voting share of 0.754 from 79/80 is 4th on that list.

Izvestia golden stick voting:

Sergey Makarov
Voting finishes: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th and 6th
While Makarov "only" won the award 2 times he does in my opinion have the most impressive Izvestia voting record. Makarov finished top 4 in the voting 10 times and top 6 in the voting for 11 straight years. This is a consistency over time that no other player even came close to matching over the 78/79-88/89 time frame when the Izvestia golden stick was awarded. Had the award been around before 78/79 it is possible that Tretiak could have rivaled Makarovs number of seasons near the top though.

Penalty killing:

Additionally Makarov was the greatest Soviet penalty killing forward of his generation and arguably the greatest Soviet penalty killing forward of all time. Honestly I would say that Makarov probably was the greatest penalty killing forward from the eastern bloc. His main competition for the top spot there being Jiri Holik. Here is the post about Makarov from my Soviet penalty killing study.

Here comes the first half of the ranking list of the players who had the majority of their primes in the 80's. (1980-1990). The second half of the list and some additional comments on this era will be posted as soon as I find the time to finish them. Edit: Which should be sometime in the end of the coming week.

1. Sergey Makarov
Ice time finishes: 1st at the 1984 Canada Cup, 1st at the 1985 WHC, 1st at the 85/86 Super Series, Tied for 1st at the 1987 WHC, 1st at the 1988 WOG, 1st at the 88/89 Super Series, 2nd at the 1987 Rendezvous, 2nd at the 1989 WHC, Tied for 3rd at the 1981 WHC, 3rd at the 1983 WHC, Tied for 3rd at the 1987 Canada Cup, 4th at the 1981 Canada Cup, 4th at the 1986 WHC, 4th at the 1990 WHC, 6th at the 1982 WHC, 8th at the 1980 WOG, 8th at the 79/80 Super Series
Overall stats: 9 goals forward and 11 goals against over 117 min, 16 sec

Throughout the 80's Makarov and Krutov formed what in my opinion was the greatest penalty killing forward pairing that the Soviets ever had. Between 1984 and 1989 one of Makarov and Krutov was either 1st or tied for 1st in ice time at 10 of the 11 tournaments/series played during that time frame and at 6 of those they finished 1st and 2nd to each other. Both of them were incredible penalty killers and while Makarov probably has an edge over Krutov during that time frame (84-89) as well what clearly separates them in my opinion is Makarovs longevity as a top notch penalty killer considering that Makarov was the significantly stronger penalty killer in the early 80's and also had a reasonably strong performance at the 1990 WHC.

Doing this study made it even more obvious for me that standing out among the top Soviet forwards when it comes to puck possession while penalty killing was something extremely difficult to do considering how many of them mastered the skill to near perfection. But standing out in that company was exactly what Sergey Makarov still managed to do. Throughout his prime Makarov time and time again made his opponents realize that even if you are one of the very greatest players in the world (or of all time for that matter) you are still gonna have to work very hard to get the puck back even when you are on the powerplay. What made Makarov such a outstanding puck possession player was his combination of skating, stickhandling, vision and strenght/balance.

While Makarovs ability to play keep-away with the puck probably was his greatest strenght when playing shorthanded it was far from the only one. His skating ability also made him an extraordinary forechecker and backchecker throughout his prime years. Interestingly his mobility and ability to help out his defencemen was actually pointed out by Viktor Kuzkin to be the main reason why Tikhonov used him so much on the penalty kill. Makarovs mobility also meant that he was able to quickly cover much ice in his own zone which made him very useful on the 3 on 5.


A great example of what made Makarov such a dominant penalty killer. First Makarov kills off about 15 seconds of penalty time against the NHL All-Stars at the 1987 Rendezvous. Then he backchecks hard and pokechecks the puck away from Gretzky.


Really great 3 on 5 shift from Makarov against Sweden at the 1989 WHC. Then when Krutov comes on to the ice to make it a 4 on 5 they show some strong puck possession as usual.


Another great example of Makarovs ability to play keep-away with the puck while shorthanded. This time against Canada at the 1987 Canada Cup.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Bryan Trottier first forward since Gordie Howe who brought everything to the table.

About Mike Bossy vs Bill Cook: In Bossy's favor, he is clearly a much superior playoff performer.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Link to my ATD bio on Taylor Cyclone Taylor, 2018

He's clearly after Nighbor player pre-consolidation that should be elected in.

Pros
- Tremendous star power
- Was an excellent (cover) point in the NHA before playing Rover and Center in the PCHA
- A long sustained peak with his best statistical seasons happening in his 30s in the PCHA where he was far an away the best player

Cons
- Weak playoff resume, he played in 3 challenge cup finals 14/15, 17/18 and 20/21 at ages 30, 33 and 36
- His only win came with Nighbor on the Millionaires

Boring counting statistics

2x Stanley Cup Champion
2x 2nd in NHA Points Among Defensemen
2nd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 06-07
3rd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 07-08
36 points in 29 games in IHL as Forward
5x Led PCHA in Assists
5x Led PCHA in Points (Also led in PPG one more season having played half the season)
3x Led PCHA in Goals
1st all-time points in PCHA
1st all-time assists in PCHA
Inducted into the HHOF in 1947 (the first year they inducted still-living members)

 

[Nick Hansen]

Sakic's longevity must be considered much better than Trottier's, no?... He scored 100 pts as a 37-year old and finished 6th in points. His ten top 10 seasons in points took place between 89/90-06/07 whilst Trottier's six top 10 seasons in points all took place between 77/78-83/84. Not to say he was washed up after that but I think Sakic held up better for quite a bit longer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Link to my ATD bio on Taylor Cyclone Taylor, 2018

He's clearly after Nighbor player pre-consolidation that should be elected in.

Pros
- Tremendous star power
- Was an excellent (cover) point in the NHA before playing Rover and Center in the PCHA
- A long sustained peak with his best statistical seasons happening in his 30s in the PCHA where he was far an away the best player

Cons
- Weak playoff resume, he played in 3 challenge cup finals 14/15, 17/18 and 20/21 at ages 30, 33 and 36
- His only win came with Nighbor on the Millionaires

Boring counting statistics

2x Stanley Cup Champion
2x 2nd in NHA Points Among Defensemen
2nd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 06-07
3rd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 07-08
36 points in 29 games in IHL as Forward
5x Led PCHA in Assists
5x Led PCHA in Points (Also led in PPG one more season having played half the season)
3x Led PCHA in Goals
1st all-time points in PCHA
1st all-time assists in PCHA
Inducted into the HHOF in 1947 (the first year they inducted still-living members)

The downside to Taylor as far as I'm concerned is that his offensive prime is actually quite short. He was dominant for 5 years, but not even close otherwise, right? I realize things are confounded by him starting his career as a defenseman.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Surprised to see Bossy, but expected the rest of the new eligibles.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The downside to Taylor as far as I'm concerned is that his offensive prime is actually quite short. He was dominant for 5 years, but not even close otherwise, right? I realize things are confounded by him starting his career as a defenseman.

Ultimately yes, I like to throw in a 6th season since he suffered a freak appendicitis that nearly killed him, but in terms of full seasons played he had 5 in the PCHA as well as what ever value you'd give for his time in the NHA and ECAHA as a point/cover point. (Finishes given below)

Additionally, his PCHA career was at ages 30+ which I think is relevant, of players in this time he aged well.

2x 2nd in NHA Points Among Defensemen
2nd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 06-07
3rd in ECAHA Points Among Defensemen, 07-08

*I think the finishes themselves are from Dreakmur's consolidation project* For those that were unaware a poster here attempt to normalize scoring and assist rates between the PCHA/NHA/NHL/WCHL to gauge the relative scoring between players in different leagues. There are a load of caveats with this method.

1913 - 2nd in Assists, 9th in Points
1914 - 6th in Goals, 1st in Assists, 4th in Points
1915 - 1st in Assists, 2nd in Points
1916 - 2nd in Goals, 1st in Assists. 1st in Points
1917 (Appendicitis) would be 3rd in Points
1918 - 1st in Goals, 2nd in Assists, 1st in Points
1919 - 1st in Goals, 1st in Assists, 1st in Points

 

[The Macho King]

Quick Q - when you say "2nd in assists", what are the numbers here? Because a lot of time you could be "1st in assists" with like... 9 assists.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Quick Q - when you say "2nd in assists", what are the numbers here? Because a lot of time you could be "1st in assists" with like... 9 assists.

1913 all players were still in single digits and Taylor had 8
1914 Taylor was one of two players in double digits with 15 (4 ahead of the leader)
1915 Taylor doubled teammate McKay (in 2nd) and had 22 for the lead

You need to remember we're talking about a sample size of ~20 games

We're also talking about a split league situation so those finishes are not directly comparable to modern post 1926 finishes

 

[MXD]

... I don't even hate Bossy THAT much at this juncture (I really dislike that he's available before Cook, however...), honestly.

 

[BenchBrawl]

1915 Stanley Cup Finals

VANCOUVER MILLIONAIRES VS. OTTAWA SENATORS

Cyclone Taylor was 30 years old, Frank Nighbor 22 years old.Both finished with 10 points.

Game 1: Vancouver Daily World, 23 Mar 1915 (6-2 Win)

Lineups

Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
Taylor-----Rover-----Gerard
MacKay-----Center-----Duford
Nighbor-----RW-----Broadbent
Stanley-----LW-----Graham

Frank Nighbor was the bright and shining light of the forward line, although "Cyclone" Taylor's work is not to be underrated.The local wing displayed great speed and stick handled in a manner which brought forth expression of admiration from the fans.He was more than a match for Darragh and was especially good on defensive work.

Game 2: Vancouver Daily World, 25 Mar 1915 (8-3 Win)

Lineups

Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
Taylor-----RW-----Broadbent
Mackay-----Centre-----Duford
Nighbor-----LW-----Gerard

Frank Nighbor again demonstrated the fact that he is about the best all-around hockey player in the business.He had speed to burn last night and he seldom allowed a man to get by him.His back checking was a marvel and he swiped the rubber with his low, sweeping hook on numerous occasions.

"Cyclone" Taylor played a grand game, his great speed and wonderful stick-handling showing to still greater advantage at the six-man game.

Game 3: Vancouver Daily World & Ottawa Citizen, 27 Mar 1915 (12-3 Win)

Lineups

Vancouver-----TEAM-----Ottawa
Lehman-----Goalie-----Benedict
Patrick-----Point-----Merrill
Cook-----Coverpoint-----Ross
Taylor-----Rover-----Gerard
Mackay-----Centre-----Darragh
Nighbor-----RW-----Broadbent
Stanley-----LW-----Graham

Vancouver Daily World

Frank Nighbor, the fastest all-around hockey player in the game today, was in the limelight all the time.His work last night was a marvel.Time and time again he would steal the puck from an opposing forward and start the forward line bustling towards Benedict.He was credited with two fine goals and assisted in the scoring four times, so that he was practically responsible for half of the goals made by his team.Frank is still one of the young players, and has ten years of good hockey in him.

Taylor was also in brilliant form and toyed with his opponents to the delight of the crowd.He was a marked man and closely checked as usual, but was too fast for his opponents.His brilliant rushes down the ice were countless and he scored twice and assisted in notching up another.

Ottawa Citizen (Special to The Citizen)

Frank Patrick and his teammates played magnificient hockey.Nighbor and Stanley were the stars with Lehman as reliable as ever.Taylor was held down, but the Ottawas paid too much attention to him and let others run loose.He took things leisurely and had the honor of scoring the last goal.Nighbor, Stanley and McKay were brilliant at all times.

VANCOUVER WINS THE STANLEY CUP!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yeah, I think the fact that Taylor was a strong point/cover point (quasi rover) puts him in that poor man's Red Kelly range of 2 position stars. Just worked the opposite of Red, with Taylor's best work coming at C vs D, although he was pretty well regarded as a latter.