Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[Killion]

I agree that looking back after the process is over will yield a more complete picture, but that doesn't mean we can't praise a person for what they've done already and compare it against his peers, past and present. And what Crosby's done stacks up very well, IMHO, with others on this list.

This is where we disagree, I myself & others with the bolded. His peers are contemporary, present. One cannot equitably & objectively compare a current player with one of the past as the player of the past is a nice neat package all wrapped up & done, big bow on the top. You need the entire bio, whole cloth & career in order to objectively & honestly compare players of that magnitude to one another over generations. Chapters are yet to be written insofar as Crosby's concerned so... we'll see. When all is said & done. Its not a slight, its just the way many of us think, operate. Final chapters to be written. I'm a lot stricter perhaps than most whereby I dont even like & do not include Goalies in a Top 10, 20, 100 or whatever "List". I dont like comparing Centers to Wingers. Left to Right, nor do I compare Defenceman to anything but Defenceman & even do so Left / Right Handed & Side. Utility Player? They go over here..... Defensive Center? .... Over here. Defensive Left Winger? Next to the meatloaf & they DO NOT touch the peas. Savvy?

 

[VanIslander]

Even Morenz apologized when he won an award and publicly said: we all know who deserves this more. I'll cite his exact quote when the greatest two-way pivot ever becomes eligible for discussion and voting.

 

[ImporterExporter]

This is where we disagree, I myself & others with the bolded. His peers are contemporary, present. One cannot equitably & objectively compare a current player with one of the past as the player of the past is a nice neat package all wrapped up & done, big bow on the top. You need the entire bio, whole cloth & career in order to objectively & honestly compare players of that magnitude to one another over generations. Chapters are yet to be written insofar as Crosby's concerned so... we'll see. When all is said & done. Its not a slight, its just the way many of us think, operate. Final chapters to be written. I'm a lot stricter perhaps than most whereby I dont even like & do not include Goalies in a Top 10, 20, 100 or whatever "List". I dont like comparing Centers to Wingers. Left to Right, nor do I compare Defenceman to anything but Defenceman & even do so Left / Right Handed & Side. Utility Player? They go over here..... Defensive Center? .... Over here. Defensive Left Winger? Next to the meatloaf & they DO NOT touch the peas. Savvy?

Well I guess we could technically compare players of the past through their age 31 seasons to Crosby but I get where you're coming from and respect your point of view.

 

[Captain Bowie]

This is where we disagree, I myself & others with the bolded. His peers are contemporary, present. One cannot equitably & objectively compare a current player with one of the past as the player of the past is a nice neat package all wrapped up & done, big bow on the top. You need the entire bio, whole cloth & career in order to objectively & honestly compare players of that magnitude to one another over generations. Chapters are yet to be written insofar as Crosby's concerned so... we'll see. When all is said & done. Its not a slight, its just the way many of us think, operate. Final chapters to be written. I'm a lot stricter perhaps than most whereby I dont even like & do not include Goalies in a Top 10, 20, 100 or whatever "List". I dont like comparing Centers to Wingers. Left to Right, nor do I compare Defenceman to anything but Defenceman & even do so Left / Right Handed & Side. Utility Player? They go over here..... Defensive Center? .... Over here. Defensive Left Winger? Next to the meatloaf & they DO NOT touch the peas. Savvy?

But we are treating these two players as if the most recent chapter is the final chapter. We have to imagine they retired this morning. Sure, it makes it more challnging, but unless you are suggesting we ignore them all together, I'm not sure what your objection is to trying to compare them to past players.

Based on your last few sentences, I have to ask with the utmost respect, what are you doing in this project then? Because we are required to do the exact thing you don't want to do.

 

[Killion]

But we're obviously not going to exclude him or other current players from the list simply because they are still playing, so that doesn't really help us now.

I agree players really do need some time for their careers to breathe for us to better understand or appreciate them, however the challenge is trying to analyze them now without the breathing room, not just ignoring them all together.

Art, ART..... You mind I cal;l you Art?...... Ima gunna regardless..... See, you must Young Man. You MUST separate current players who's careers are still evolving, still active... from those who preceded them . Very simple. Golden Rule. Trust me Son. You'll be so much happier for the experience.... Now, I know I know, "so unfair"... you want your bread butters on BOTH SIDES but y'know what? Lifes not like that. One must view the ENTIRE canvas in order to understand and appreciate a work of art. Not 3/4's or a half. Whole ding dang shootin match. K? Ya follow?

 

[VanIslander]

Killion is not a voter in this project.

He can diss its premise all he wants.

There are merits to comparing only retired players. It would make the project less "expiry dated", more valuable ten years from now.

Anyways,...

 

[ImporterExporter]

Even Morenz apologized when he won an award and publicly said: we all know who deserves this more. I'll cite his exact quote when the greatest two-way pivot ever becomes eligible for discussion and voting.

I know the exact quote you are speaking of and the player that shall not be named yet.

 

[Killion]

But we are treating these two players as if the most recent chapter is the final chapter. We have to imagine they retired this morning. Sure, it makes it more challnging, but unless you are suggesting we ignore them all together, I'm not sure what your objection is to trying to compare them to past players.

Based on your last few sentences, I have to ask with the utmost respect, what are you doing in this project then? Because we are required to do the exact thing you don't want to do.

Im not participating. Never have never will. Dont like the GD Rules. Guys still playin?... IN-ELIGIBLE.

Buh bye. Uh?.... How is that "objective"? Its not. Its not fair to the current nor past player ('s).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Killion is not a voter in this project.

He can diss its premise all he wants.

Absolutely.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

 

[VanIslander]

... says the lion to another lion while drinking from the river moments before the hippo emerges and kills it in its enormous deadly aggressive jaws in a fit of territorial rage. Hippos and mosquitoes own Africa. Yet lions and gorillas have the star power.

 

[Killion]

But we are treating these two players as if the most recent chapter is the final chapter. We have to imagine they retired this morning.

You shouldnt be "imagining" anything. This is REALITY. The History of Hockey..... And I'll tell you something you already know.... writing fiction is a Hell of a lot easier than writing non-fiction, as TRUTH is always far stranger than FICTION and far more entertaining. Why? Because its REAL. People dont gravitate to this Board to read conjecture, speculation, fantasy. I mean come on. No business including current players in a Top 100 Players All Time breakdown. I wouldnt even approach it as a collective blurring the lines whereby one throws position & handedness etc out the window.... Id also & do consider things like Character, Leadership. Grit. Fight. Aggressiveness. Intangibles. Eff the Stats. Numbers. Cup wins & silverware. Theres a lot of luck involved in the game of hockey.

 

[VanIslander]

...People dont gravitate to this Board to read conjecture, speculation, fantasy...

15 of us voters in this project have been ATDers.

It comes natural to us.

Btw... Killion. Are you retired?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Id also & do consider things like Character, Leadership. Grit. Fight. Aggressiveness. Intangibles. Eff the Stats. Numbers. Cup wins & silverware. Theres a lot of luck involved in the game of hockey.

I think I passively did this. I put together my ballot with the mindset of “Maybe I’ll **** around and put Jagr #1.” Nah. 6th. I just don’t know that he’d be on my dream roster to fight the aliens for the fate of the Earth. And that’s just too important.

 

[VanIslander]

... I just don’t know that he’d be on my dream roster to fight the aliens for the fate of the Earth. And that’s just too important.

6'3 220 lbs and a mullet!

Reconsider.

(I know. I know. Your roster has that 5'9 165 lbs Montrealer, the Mitchell Meteor.)

But wait, check that: Jagr and Hasek ARE aliens, in actual fact. So BUILD THAT WALL.

 

[Doctor No]

People dont gravitate to this Board to read conjecture, speculation, fantasy.

Oh, great. So where am I supposed to put my "What if Kirk McLean played goal during the Civil War?" fan fiction? (Spoiler alert: there are real Blue Jackets.)

 

[Killion]

15 of us voters in this project have been ATDers.

It comes natural to us.

Btw... Killion. Are you retired?

"Retired"? Rust Never Sleeps. It just corrodes, gets more poisonous, toxic as it ages....

Yeah. You'll learn Young'un..... Patience all gone, memory full.

 

[VanIslander]

Quiz q: How many HHOFers have played for the Columbus Bluejackets?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Federov/Fedorov

 

[Killion]

Quiz q: How many HHOFers have played for the Columbus Bluejackets?

Like......... zero?..... Though I'd like to nominate Grant Clitsome..... just because.

 

[VanIslander]

One.

And he is on some top120 all time lists in this project (not mine) because of one great regular season, four great playoffs, worldclass wheels and a hounddog mentality. He did nothing great during his three seasons in Columbus as a 35+ year old.

 

[ted2019]

Fanboy arguments are never rational.

TBH, you are the last one who should bring up someone being a "fanboy". All you do is post positives about Canadiens in 95% of your posts. Still don't understand the video of Robinson trying to get Messier to fight him.

 

[Captain Bowie]

One.

And he is on some top120 all time lists in this project (not mine) because of one great regular season, four great playoffs, worldclass wheels and a hounddog mentality. He did nothing great during his three seasons in Columbus as a 35+ year old.

And embarrassingly high on at least one list that I know if.

 

[VanIslander]

VOTING STARTS IN 1 HOUR & 45 MINUTES.

And I need to figure out Mikita vs. Plante.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

A lot of the reason so many Bruins teams were over .500 was *because* of Bourque. And a lot of those teams even without Bourque - while not objectively bad - were no where close to having contending rosters. I'm trying to think of a modern team that encapsulates a comparison - maybe the Wild? Fine teams, but never really contenders.

A modern team that one could analogize to the Bourque-era Bruins would be a tough find. A Prez. A "retro-Prez." Two Final appearances (without winning). And more than half the time, being eliminated by a team with a worse regular season record. Naw... Boston wasn't always "Ray-and-the-Plugs."

 

[Killion]

One.

And he is on some top120 all time lists in this project (not mine) because of one great regular season, four great playoffs, worldclass wheels and a hounddog mentality. He did nothing great during his three seasons in Columbus as a 35+ year old.

... annnnnnd that would be?....... meanwhile: www.youtube.com/watch?v=thu8DWsirJo