Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[VanIslander]

near the top in a few categories in a few polls. Top-10 in points per game twice. Two stanley cup finals (one without Hull). I know it's not much. I imagine in ten years we'll be asking the same about Crosby 2018-2026.

Well that puts both of them on step with Morenz, a whole floor below Bourque and Hasek.

At least in terms of excellent longevity.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I really don't think putting one over the other is indefensible, I do think putting OV's 13/14 season in the same tier as any of Jagr's Art Ross winning years is.

Perhaps I can be swayed in this whole "Ovechkin vs Jagr" debate. I see the pendulum swinging the other way...

 

[Sentinel]

All Star Games literally do not matter

I was just making a point that a goalscoring leader will be invited to an ASG 100 times out of 100. He is "elite" by definition.

 

[Sentinel]

And Peter Bondra wasn't an elite player. At least, wasn't elite the way we'd use this word to refer to players ranging from 10th to 21st of all-time.

He was an elite player. He lead the league in goalscoring twice. If he did it seven times, he would be hard to keep off of this list.

 

[bobholly39]

People are getting too caught up in the definition of the word elite.

Next thing we know someone will start asking who was generational

 

[overpass]

If you need a reason other than age for Mikita’s scoring dropping off in his 30s, he had a back injury in 1969 that affected his skating for the rest of his career.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I was just making a point that a goalscoring leader will be invited to an ASG 100 times out of 100. He is "elite" by definition.

They invite ~40 players to the all star game. Are they all elite by virtue of being "invited" to the All-Star game?

He was an elite player. He lead the league in goalscoring twice. If he did it seven times, he would be hard to keep off of this list.

You're being far too liberal with the word elite.

 

[MXD]

I just realized something ....

We all know, or should be knowing at least, that longevity comparisons can't exactly be made on a 1-for-1 basis, and that some kind of adjustments have to be made in order to account for a ton of factors. In other words, while Mikita arguably has some kind of advantage of Howie Morenz in terms of "raw seasons" when it comes to longevity, it's good practice to give Howie Morenz some kind of mulligan, due to playing in an earlier era. Or else, we aren't comparing apples to apples.

But would it be fair to say that D-Men have an intrinsical advantage when it comes to longevity?

In other words, Niklas Lidstrom has an advantage over Jaromir Jagr when it comes to longevity as an elite player, but how much of that is directly related to the fact he is a D-Men? If the answer to this question is other than "None", should we even bother, considering forwards and goalies have built-in advantages of their own?

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Captain Obvious Non-Controversial Statements

(or, at least they should be non-controversial)

1. All other considerations equal, a goal is more valuable than an assist.
2. An Even-Strength goal is more valuable than a Power Play goal.
3. Leading the entire league in goal-scoring is not necessarily an automatic indication of an elite season, but (to paraphrase the old Damon Runyon tag) 'it's safest to bet that way.'

 

[MXD]

He was an elite player. He lead the league in goalscoring twice. If he did it seven times, he would be hard to keep off of this list.

Had Peter Bondra led the league in scoring 7 times, he'd have been a totally different player and he wouldn't have been, you know, Peter Bondra.

 

[The Macho King]

Captain Obvious Non-Controversial Statements

(or, at least they should be non-controversial)

1. All other considerations equal, a goal is more valuable than an assist.
2. An Even-Strength goal is more valuable than a Power Play goal.
3. Leading the entire league in scoring is not necessarily an automatic indication of an elite season, but (to paraphrase the old Damon Runyon tag) 'it's safest to bet that way.'

I don't understand that argument.

 

[bobholly39]

Captain Obvious Non-Controversial Statements

(or, at least they should be non-controversial)

1. All other considerations equal, a goal is more valuable than an assist.
2. An Even-Strength goal is more valuable than a Power Play goal.
3. Leading the entire league in scoring is not necessarily an automatic indication of an elite season, but (to paraphrase the old Damon Runyon tag) 'it's safest to bet that way.'

Disagree with all of that.

1. Mostly agree but to a small extent only

2. Disagree COMPLETELY. Like not even close. A goal is a goal.

3. Disagree as well. But again this is becoming more about vocabulary and each persons definition of the word elite more than anything - which is a waste of time.

 

[sr edler]

We don't need to discuss definitions. Contextualize everything (what actually happened on the ice) and the problem in question is solved.

 

[MXD]

I don't understand that argument.

I'll rephrase it for him :

Ceteris Paribus, I'm taking the 40-50-90 player who went 30-40-70 at ES a hundred times out of 100 over the 40-50-90 player who went 22-32-54 at ES, assuming both players go 2-3-5 on the PK.

 

[The Macho King]

I just realized something ....

We all know, or should be knowing at least, that longevity comparisons can't exactly be made on a 1-for-1 basis, and that some kind of adjustments have to be made in order to account for a ton of factors. In other words, while Mikita arguably has some kind of advantage of Howie Morenz in terms of "raw seasons" when it comes to longevity, it's good practice to give Howie Morenz some kind of mulligan, due to playing in an earlier era. Or else, we aren't comparing apples to apples.

But would it be fair to say that D-Men have an intrinsical advantage when it comes to longevity?

In other words, Niklas Lidstrom has an advantage over Jaromir Jagr when it comes to longevity as an elite player, but how much of that is directly related to the fact he is a D-Men? If the answer to this question is other than "None", should we even bother, considering forwards and goalies have built-in advantages of their own?

How many Dmen had absurd longevity (a la Bourque and Lidstrom)? I mean - Chelios had a random peak at 40 but overall from 36 on he was a much different player than before. Those two might just be kind of random outliers, like Howe or Messier are for forwards.

 

[The Macho King]

I'll rephrase it for him :

Ceteris Paribus, I'm taking the 40-50-90 player who went 30-40-70 at ES a hundred times out of 100 over the 40-50-90 player who went 22-32-54 at ES, assuming both players go 2-3-5 on the PK.

I understand he was saying that - I just don't get why. A goal counts as much if you're a man up as it does if you're at evens.

 

[bobholly39]

I'll rephrase it for him :

Ceteris Paribus, I'm taking the 40-50-90 player who went 30-40-70 at ES a hundred times out of 100 over the 40-50-90 player who went 22-32-54 at ES, assuming both players go 2-3-5 on the PK.

Why?

 

[DannyGallivan]

I don't understand that argument.

I think he meant to say something along the lines that it's harder to score an even strength goal. I don't think he meant that a power play goal is worth two points.

 

[quoipourquoi]

How many Dmen had absurd longevity (a la Bourque and Lidstrom)? I mean - Chelios had a random peak at 40 but overall from 36 on he was a much different player than before. Those two might just be kind of random outliers, like Howe or Messier are for forwards.

MacInnis and Stevens. But I also wouldn’t call Chelios’ 2001-02 a random spike any more than Bourque’s 2000-01; he was similarly killing it in 1999-00.

 

[Sentinel]

They invite ~40 players to the all star game. Are they all elite by virtue of being "invited" to the All-Star game?

You're being far too liberal with the word elite.

And you are far too restrictive. 40 out of 600 is certainly elite to me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

So the same person who in a previous thread had the Ricky Bobby mentality when it came to trophies "if you're not first, you're last" essentially...winning it means so much more, no matter what, than second place...

Is the same person who thinks 40th out of 600 is elite?

[MOD]

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Don't want to spend too much time on this- but fortunately, it shouldn't take too long to send the "a-goal-is-a-goal" canard off-to-bed without supper.

Two 60 goal scorers, one is 25% power-play dependent (15 Pwr Play G), and one is 40% power-play dependent (24 Pwr Play G). Now, you're going to The Playoffs, where you KNOW whistles are going to stay in the pockets more. Here, it's not really a close call which player's goal-scoring pattern counts for more.

 

[MXD]

How many Dmen had absurd longevity (a la Bourque and Lidstrom)? I mean - Chelios had a random peak at 40 but overall from 36 on he was a much different player than before. Those two might just be kind of random outliers, like Howe or Messier are for forwards.

MacInnis and Stevens. But I also wouldn’t call Chelios’ 2001-02 a random spike any more than Bourque’s 2000-01; he was similarly killing it in 1999-00.

And Eddie Shore. And Dit Clapper/Babe Seibert/Ebbie Goodfellow who turned into star D when their career at F was going down. And Zdeno Chara/Chris Pronger (it took them some time to get there, but they were contributors for a while).

 

[bobholly39]

Don't want to spend too much time on this- but fortunately, it shouldn't take too long to send the "a-goal-is-a-goal" canard off-to-bed without supper.

Two 60 goal scorers, one is 25% power-play dependent (15 Pwr Play G), and one is 40% power-play dependent (24 Pwr Play G). Now, you're going to The Playoffs, where you KNOW whistles are going to stay in the pockets more. Here, it's not really a close call which player's goal-scoring pattern counts for more.

If the question is who do you take going forward - sure. That could have some worth. But thats not the question were asking here.


Were looking at the past ONLY here. All goals have already been scored. ES or PP ones. They all count and are worth the same.

 

[The Macho King]

Don't want to spend too much time on this- but fortunately, it shouldn't take too long to send the "a-goal-is-a-goal" canard off-to-bed without supper.

Two 60 goal scorers, one is 25% power-play dependent (15 Pwr Play G), and one is 40% power-play dependent (24 Pwr Play G). Now, you're going to The Playoffs, where you KNOW whistles are going to stay in the pockets more. Here, it's not really a close call which player's goal-scoring pattern counts for more.

Study: NHL Referees Routinely Call Fewer Penalties In Game 7s
Game 7 is a Great Time to Get Physical

Game 7s, yes. Games 1-6 don't seem that far off from the regular season.