Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[The Macho King]

It's all fake... ?!?!?!?!

I KNEW IT!!!!!

Even the Macho Man Randy Savage respects Big Bird.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Vezina meant something different back then, it was purely statistical

Plante in AST voting 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2

And AST voting was not? Counting of games missed.

On the expansion Blues Plante showed how much better he was than Glenn Hall.

 

[DannyGallivan]

20 career NHL fights.

That's certainly surprising.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Unlike Howe, Messier was a coward, stick man, who would turtle and run:

Unwilling to fight Larry Robinson man to man:

I guess he loved life too much.

 

[sr edler]

Robinson dared him to swing it but he wouldn't even do that.

It's easier and less consequences cross-checking Mike Hough from behind.

 

[bobholly39]

This is one of those times where I want to point out how underrated Bourque is as a playoff performer, since it's going to be the main argument that will be used to place Lidstrom over him.

First - the elephant in the room. The majority of those Boston teams were not very talented. Rick Middleton is okay, Barry Pederson was pretty good early in Bourque's career, and you have a few other decent players during the early parts of the 80s, but that still wasn't a super talented team. Until Adam Oates came to the team in 1992, Ray Bourque led the team in *scoring* five times, and was often in the top 3 (being a handful of points behind the top scorer). Even after that, Bourque often finished second or third in team scoring. This is in marked contrast with Lidstrom (who never led his team in scoring, was second a few times but often by pretty big numbers), and the only real comparable of the players available is Potvin's early years before Bossy and Trottier broke out. Despite being so reliant on Bourque for scoring, the Bruins made the playoffs every year of his career until 1997, and they didn't qualify his final year in 2000. 1997 is notable because Bourque missed 20 games (still put up 50 points), and 2000 was the year he was traded.

So I say that just to note that at times it was impressive that the Bruins *even made the playoffs* during almost the entire span of Bourque's career.

The other thing is - they actually went pretty damn deep considering. Of all those runs, they at least made the second round 10 times, the third round five times, and the Finals twice. Each time to the Finals they lose to the Oilers, and in one of their third rounds they lost to the dynasty Islanders (one of their second round eliminations was also to the dynasty Islanders). Then they got knocked out by the Pens in 91 and 92 in the third round (not a dynasty but probably should have ended up being one).

I say that to establish that the Bruins were not disappointments in the playoffs. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find a run where you would say they disappointed. They lost four straight series to the Habs in the mid-80s (one of those Habs teams went on to win the Cup), but those Habs teams were pretty good.

So how was Bourque's performance in those runs? Well, you can track a deep run often by how well Bourque played. The first second-round lost he had 11 points in 10 games. When they got knocked out in the third to the last year of the dynasty Islanders, he had 23 points and was a +15 in 17 games. When they went to the Finals against the Oilers the first time he was 21 points in 23 games and a +16. Similarly in 1990 he was a PPG over 17 games and a +11. When they were getting rocked by the Pens? 25 points in 19 games, followed by 9 points in 12 (minus both of those playoffs, but considering the *insane* runs that Mario had I'm going to assume Bourque was tasked with shutting him down while also being the entirety of the offense).

Over his career in Boston, he played 180 playoff games and was a +14 with 161 points. While that's a slight dip back from his RS PPG, it's not significantly so (.89 PPG in the playoffs, .99 in the regular season). Additionally, in no fewer than four of the runs, he basically dragged the team as far as they could humanly go (Leading the team in scoring in one playoff, coming in second or third the other two). One season I'd note - in 88 Bourque was a +16, first on the team by 7 (and the top forwards were pretty far back with Linesman being +4, Neely being +1).

In this class of players - outside of Potvin who I think has a case for one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time and Plante (although once again on those Habs teams I have a hard time giving individual credit) - Bourque is at least on the same level as the best in this bunch.

Good write up and i think i've come around to the idea that Bourque's playoff are quite strong after some of the discussion in the last round.

Couple of things I want to point out though:

Bad team for Bourque = too bad for him and great teams for Lidstrom (and Messier, and few others in this round) net positive for them. Playing on good teams (let alone multiple cup champions) will get you more opportunities to go far in the playoffs - and long playoff runs should be a differentiating factor in ranking playoffs. I know your post was more about pimping Bourque up in the playoffs then necessarily comparing him head on to Lidstrom's playoffs - but i just feel that even if you think Bourque had less to play with in Boston and did as good as could be in that scenario - if Lidstrom did more thanks to his teammates allowing him to do more, it's still advantage Lidstrom in the end.

This is also why so many of the Habs have all-time great playoff records - even if as you say Plante is the 4th member of the 50s Habs who'd be getting ranked.

As to your very last sentence - I'd say both Messier (did you forget him, or purposefully leave out?) and Crosby are ahead of Bourque for playoffs. But everyone else is fair game - maybe even Lidstrom (warrants closer look at Lidstrom)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As to your very last sentence - I'd say both Messier (did you forget him, or purposefully leave out?) and Crosby are ahead of Bourque for playoffs. But everyone else is fair game - maybe even Lidstrom (warrants closer look at Lidstrom)

Don't forget Plante - the playoffs (in both Montreal AND St Louis) are the main reason he's the 1st Original 6 goalie to become available, rather than Glenn Hall.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Unlike Howe, Messier was a coward, stick man, who would turtle and run:

Unwilling to fight Larry Robinson man to man:

I'd warn against cherry-picking videos to represent a 20 year career, however...

What this video did was make me wish I had Robinson even higher than I had him on my list. Not as good as the video of him spanking Dave Schultz, or rag dolling Ted Irvine, but man, Robinson was the total package. To reiterate what I said earlier, I'd take him and Potvin in their prime over almost any defenseman who ever played.

 

[bobholly39]

Don't forget Plante - the playoffs (in both Montreal AND St Louis) are the main reason he's the 1st Original 6 goalie to become available, rather than Glenn Hall.

He was saying only Potvin and Plante are ahead of Bourque for playoffs. I was saying I agree - but also add Messier and Crosby. Plante's already included in there

 

[The Macho King]

I forgot Messier honestly. I disagree on Crosby. Crosby has quite a few disappointing runs (pretty much 12-15 were some variations of bad to very bad). And 16 was really unimpressive and I award a retro non-Smythe for that one (Kessel or Letang had better arguments, and failing that Murray at least had a solid run).

I also disagree with your contention that the state of their teams shouldn't play a factor. Lidstrom behind the RW not only inflates his numbers, it gives far more opportunities, and that should absolutely be taken into account. We're judging players based on their impact, so saying "oh well, should've had a better team" seems pretty stupid in that context. That's a big reason why the 50s Habs are so over-represented in this and we aren't contextualizing other performances well enough.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Backstrom in particular drops heavily... I'm not being biased when I say that Backstrom was a bigger culprit than Ovechkin during these years, maybe similar to how many say Mikita was a bigger culprit than Hull for the 60s Blackhawks relative lack of success...

I'm going to piggyback off this post to just say that it was recently shown by the newly released NHL data that the biggest culprit in the Black Hawks lack of success was an atrociously poor penalty killing performance in the playoffs. And yes, Mikita and Hull both had big roles on that PK, but maybe they shouldn't have. If I had to pick one of the 4 Black Hawks stars made to look bad by their terrible PK, it would be Pierre Pilote, but we'll get to that when he's available.

Anyway carry on, minor point. I do think there are reasons to vote against Mikita; I just don't think he was the single biggest "culprit" among the Black Hawks stars.

 

[Michael Farkas]

And 16 was really unimpressive

Just before this gets out of control...I watched every single second of every single playoff game in 2016 and kept a running Conn Smythe tracker from about a week into the playoffs...Crosby was the second best player in the playoffs, narrowly behind Kessel for me.

 

[The Macho King]

Just before this gets out of control...I watched every single second of every single playoff game in 2016 and kept a running Conn Smythe tracker from about a week into the playoffs...Crosby was the second best player in the playoffs, narrowly behind Kessel for me.

I thought Letang was more significant as I was watching, although Letang also had some Letang moments that you can mark against him.

Also - frankly that win felt like a huge team win. Rolling three scoring lines wave after wave, and playing great team D, while getting timely goaltending from Murray. So this is also one of those years where whoever won the Smythe was going to kind of be a weak winner historically, because it was such a team effort.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I forget who said it, but I heard Crosby described as the most talented grinder in the history of the game.

I've heard and in some ways it's true. His work ethic is unparalleled.

Here's the section I did for his ATD bio last year on work ethic and leadership. It's loaded with quotes from coaches, teammates, other players around the league, analysts, etc. It's a testement to how well respected he is but also how much proof there is that he's the hardest working player in the league and you don't always see that from elite superstars. You certainly didn't from Mario for much of his career. It's an area that Sid compares well with somebody like Gretzky.

Sidney Crosby, the best player in the world!

Does Crosby ever pick his brain?

“Eh, not much,” said Toews, with a laugh.

“But he actually does. I think that’s a quality the best players in the world have. He’s always looking for ways to better himself, even if it’s from a guy like me.”

In Sochi, Ralph Krueger was part of the Team Canada brain trust as they won Olympic gold. He worked with Crosby, and marveled at, among many things, his curiosity about the game.

“He’s just the ultimate professional in his preparation,” said Krueger, who coached Team Europe at the World Cup. “I was impressed by his hunger to figure out what to do on the big ice, the conversations we had about it. I think he’s the best example of playing the complete game.”

Shea Weber calls it “imposing his will on the game” when Crosby makes a play like that.

“He’s one of those guys that’s got the ability to switch momentum. He switched the momentum after they scored and went up 2-1, and got the momentum back at the end of the second so we could regroup and come back in with a little bit more confidence,” said Weber.

The concept of leadership is pretty specious in hockey, from the overstating of the captaincy to the nebulous concept of having “rings in the room,” i.e. veterans that have won championships before.

But leadership in hockey gains clarity when you see a play like that by Crosby, at that time for Team Canada, and in a tournament like this.

“You see plays like that, that’s where the leadership comes in,” said Marchand. “When you’re able to lead at this level, of a group of leaders, then you’re able to take control, that just shows how special of a player he is and he created that whole goal and ultimately, that did lead to turning the game around.”

Crosby's leadership manifesting itself in subtle ways

Most people think leadership means being vocal in the dressing room, motivating the team, rallying the players together and making sure everyone feels involved. But it can also come in the form of one of the world's best players not being afraid to ask questions if he doesn't understand something, showing others they should do the same while also making sure everyone is pulling in the right direction.

"Sid doesn't say a lot, but what he says makes sense," Canada assistant coach Ken Hitchcock said. "And I think he's got similar personalities in support. Jonathan [Toews] is the same way. He's a quiet guy, very sincere. What these guys do is they bring a seriousness to the way we go about our business. So they're the ones asking all the questions at practice. They're asking all the questions post-practice. They want all the details in place before we play. That's what brings a seriousness to our business and makes it really professional."

Crosby's second Cup puts him with greats

"I think his leadership, for me, especially when we called a lot of young guys up," said assistant coach Rick Tocchet, citing one of Crosby's bigger contributions. "I think he really took that to heart. He really wanted to lead these guys. He had them over to the house for dinner.

"Any time it got a little hairy in games, he was talking to them. I guess the cherry on top, he was incredible tonight. He was such an animal on the ice. I think that was the cherry for him, the process that he went through this year. I'm really proud of the way he played today, he wanted it tonight."

Well, how about when Crosby took the Stanley Cup and handed it to Trevor Daley, whose season ended because of a broken ankle in the Eastern Conference finals? And Crosby knew that Daley had visited his ailing mother before the finals. She told Daley she'd love to see him raise the Cup.

And Crosby made sure it happened.

Daley could not say enough about the gesture and the man who made it.

"I was thinking about that earlier," Daley said. "He's a great hockey player, but he's an even better person. What much more can you say about that guy? He's a special guy."

"He can adapt and change his game to different things," said Chris Kunitz, one of a small group of holdovers from that '09 championship.

"Early in his career, he went out and got points and did everything, but that didn't make him satisfied," Kunitz added. "He had to go out and lead through example, and became a better player. Offense, defense, he goes out with nine seconds left, takes a faceoff for our team. He's the all-encompassing guy, one of the greatest players to ever play the game because of how he can adapt to the game and how hard he works at everything."

Mark Recchi won a Stanley Cup with Pittsburgh as a young man in 1991 but didn't win another until 15 years later. He won a third in 2011 with the Boston Bruins.

In Crosby, Recchi sees someone who has evolved from being a great player to a great leader.

"I see a mature leader that played the right way every night, regardless of whether he got points or not, and he led the team that way," Recchi said. "And that's important when your leader leads like that. He didn't let things get to him. He just played the game every night as hard as he could and led the way with a great example."

Barry Trotz Talks About the Best Player in the World: Sidney Crosby

In addition to appreciating the success everyone saw Crosby have on the ice, the Caps’ coach and Crosby also connected off of it.

“My son was in for a day,” Trotz said, referring to Nolan, one of his children who has Down syndrome. “Just sitting there playing an iPad and Sid went down and sat with him and played on the iPad for a minute with him and stuff like that. He didn’t have to do that. He just did. I’ve got a lot of respect for guys like that.”

Crosby finishing off a year for the ages

"What I always go back to is his work ethic," Sullivan said. "He is a tireless worker. He's the hardest-working player I have ever been around, and I've been around a lot of players. He, without a doubt, has the highest work ethic that I've seen. He's not as good as he is by accident. He's a very talented player, but his work ethic is tremendous. It's relentless."

Crosby is on an amazing run. His body of work and practice habits make him this good. And defensively, there's no reason Crosby shouldn't be considered for the Selke Trophy. His defense, which tends to go unnoticed, is just as good as his offense.

"Most elite players tend to lean towards the one-dimensional side," Sullivan said. "If you go through the league of superstars, the challenge for coaching staffs is to get those guys to be a little bit more committed away from the puck. I don't have that conversation with Sid."

Crosby chasing the impossible

Carolina Hurricanes' Bill Peters coached Crosby in the 2015 World Championships. After a long morning of meetings before playing the Czech Republic, Peters asked the Team Canada defensemen to stay late and huddle around him in the hallway for one more meeting. He wanted to show five clips on his laptop very specific to Jake Muzzin, Brent Burns and the rest of the Canadian defensemen.

"I look over my shoulder, and there's Sid standing there," Peters said.

He showed the clips to his defensemen and then pulled Crosby aside afterward.

"I said, 'Sid, real quick, why did you come to the D meeting?'" Peters said. "He goes, 'If you thought it was important they should see it, I thought I should see it too, and it would help me.'"

He does that all the time. Crosby attended Penguins penalty-kill meetings for years before he ever played regularly on the PK. He relentlessly studies the game.

On the morning Canada played Russia for the gold medal at the Worlds, Crosby stayed after practice to work on one particular shot over and over. He had assistant coach Jay Woodcroft feed him passes in the high slot. He one-timed the puck repeatedly in the same spot of the net -- far side.

That night, he scored against the Russians on a similar shot.

"It's not a coincidence," Peters said. "That's Sid. He outworks you. His will is unbelievably strong. That's just what he does."

Sidney Crosby and the soul of winning everything - Sportsnet.ca

Babcock believes Crosby has matured, grown more comfortable with who he is.

“He’s under a microscope all the time, as you know, but he’s a joy to be around,” Babcock said. “You can be a fierce competitor in everything you do and still be a great human being.”

Runner-up Thomas Vanek said Crosby inspires him. Losing coach Ralph Krueger labeled No. 87 “the ultimate professional.” Shea Weber, embracing his captain during one final O Canada said Crosby wields the power to “impose his will or change the game at any time.”

Sidney Crosby: 100 Greatest NHL Players

At 7, Crosby was enrolled in a Halifax hockey school for the best young players in the Maritime Provinces where future NHL forward Brad Richards was an instructor. Noting Sidney was "head and shoulders above everyone else his age," Richards told Richer: "He never stopped learning, he just kept going. Kids usually peak. He never did."

http://blog.triblive.com/chipped-ic...sidney-crosby-appreciation-day/#axzz4kO5O0nnY

Winnipeg coach Paul Maurice actually recognized Crosby’s ambassador tendencies when his turn to opine about No. 87 arrived on Thursday.

“You listen to him talk, and you can flip over and listen to Gretzky talk, and with the legends, they have that same presence, that same care of the game,” Maurice said.
Maurice also waded into the sometimes tricky waters of chatting about Crosby’s place in the league during his “down” seasons.

“(It was) not an easy story for him,” Maurice said. “You know the injuries. Then, to his credit, with character and will, he pushed himself back to being the elite player. And even when he was banged up, he still was elite in terms of top 10. But to get back to being the primary guy in the National Hockey League must’ve taken a lot of commitment and a lot of dedication to being great and loving the game.”

http://blog.triblive.com/chipped-ic...sidney-crosby-appreciation-day/#ixzz4l8utF6Oa

Ah yes, commitment and dedication to greatness and the game of hockey. Cue coach Mike Sullivan’s latest offering on Crosby.

“I think what I’ve grown to really respect and admire about Sid is just the character of the person and his commitment and his appetite to be the best,” said Sullivan, reiterating what he has said on several instances over the past month. “His work ethic is second to none.

“I’ve been associated with the NHL for 25, 26 years now, and I don’t know that I’ve been around a player that has a work ethic like Sid. He comes to the rink every day, and he’s working on some aspect of his game. And it’s tireless. He has an appetite to be the best, and he’s willing to make the commitment and put the time in both on the ice and off the ice, whether it be in the weight room or how he lives his life, his nutrition. He controls everything within his power to be the best.

“Even video meetings, we’ll run power play meetings, and you can see the wheels turning when we show him film. He’s always talking after the fact with his teammates about what they saw on the video and how they’re going to try to take advantage of certain situations. It’s that constant engagement that I’ve noticed since I’ve been here that I’ve really grown to respect.”

It’s all in the details for Penguins’ Sidney Crosby | The Star

“When (Crosby) came into the league he was seen as a playmaker,” defenceman Kris Letang said. “After that, he worked on his shot and he was a 50-goal scorer. After that, he worked on his draws and now he’s over 50-something per cent on faceoffs. He works on every detail and that’s why we’re a successful team.”

Sidney Crosby's work ethic second to none

One person who wasn’t surprised by Crosby’s performance was former Penguins teammate Sergei Gonchar, now with the Ottawa Senators.

“Sid is Sid,” Gonchar told Ken Warren of the Ottawa Citizen. “Those things are abnormal for everyone else, but for him, it’s normal. He’s coming back like he never missed a step.”

Gonchar added that it’s Crosby’s work ethic that sets him apart from other NHL stars.

“The most important thing is, probably, that ability to work,” Gonchar said. “I’ve never seen a superstar work as hard as he does. He’s probably the most prepared player that I’ve ever played with.

“I kind of expected that he would be in great shape and play the way he did, but I didn’t expect him to score that many points in one game. I thought, timing wise, it might take him a while longer.”

Crosby got Toews' OK to accept Canada 'C'

Maybe maintaining that chemistry was behind Crosby's motivation to include Toews in the conversation. Either way, Toews said it's a good example of Crosby's leadership.

"For Sidney to ask the other guys for their approval, I don't think he needed to do that," Toews said. "That just shows the kind of guy he is and obviously a great captain in Pittsburgh."

Sidney Crosby and Jonathan Toews have plenty of similarities

“[Toews] and Sid are pretty similar guys,” said Marian Hossa, who has played with both. “Great leaders. Super talents. Great in the dressing room. Great people.

“The way Sid has handled himself from such a young age, I think it’s tremendous; not many guys could handle that. The same thing with Johnny.”

Blackhawks coach Joel Quenneville has observed both, Toews with the Blackhawks and the two of them together in the Olympics and World Cup of Hockey.

“Extremely competitive,” Quenneville offered as a description. “Expect a lot of themselves. Lead by example. Don’t say a whole lot. How they carry themselves, they know the time and what needs to be said. They say it the right way. Good spokesmen for their teams.

“They just have the right feel for that leadership role.”

https://www.nhl.com/news/hitchcock-...-canada-to-olympic-gold-in-vancouver/c-602850

Hitchcock, who once called Crosby a "diver" because of his perceived ability to embellish plays and draw penalties, now might be Crosby's biggest fan. To Hitchcock, Crosby is the ultimate class act, and not just because of his world-class ability or his long list of accomplishments.

Two weeks in Vancouver convinced Hitchcock of that.

As Hitchcock was reflecting Wednesday on Canada's golden moment on ice, he suggested that Crosby's leadership skill was the biggest factor. He didn't even mention Crosby's gold medal-clinching overtime goal that decided Canada's 3-2 rematch win over the United States ??? arguably one of the greatest hockey games ever played.

"It was 8 o'clock in the morning and we (the coaches) are going for breakfast and he's coming back with the whole crew," said Hitchcock. "The coaches really appreciated that. It made a huge difference."

In Vancouver, the NHL players had the option of staying in hotels rather than the more Spartan accommodations in the Olympic Village. But once Crosby eschewed an expensive room, the other players did, too.

"By just his presence and his disposition, he just brought everybody into the village," Hitchcock said. "It made a huge difference. Everybody was having fun together. You talk about building chemistry, the chemistry became instant. Everybody started hanging out on the (village dormitory's) 12th floor and having fun together."

For that moment on, Hitchcock said, a collection of highly skilled and highly paid NHL players of different backgrounds, organizations and ages became a true team, not just an all-star team.

"He's such a good player, such a good person," said Hitchcock, now the coach of the St. Louis Blues. "There's leaders, and then there's leaders of players. He gets along with the guys good. It's not surprising. Everything he does has got class to it. I just like the way he leads the guys."

"Some guys get it with their teammates. Some guys are leaders in the media and some guys are leaders with management or coaches or a combination," Hitchcock said. "He just digs in with the players, he has fun with the guys. He led the fun parade in the Olympics. He connected everybody with the other athletes in the village and made a huge difference for us moving forward."

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/12/sidney-crosby-leadership/

Crosby won his second straight Conn Smythe Trophy after collecting 27 points (eight goals and 19 assists) during the Penguins’ playoff run. He now has led the Penguins to three Stanley Cup titles.

But his contributions went beyond those numbers, as it also was evident from the way he helped nurture Pittsburgh’s young talent.

“I can’t put that into words,” Sheary said Sunday night after the Penguins clinched a second straight championship with a 2-0 Game 6 victory in Nashville. “Just to be alongside him for most of this year, how he’s helped me personally and get through these struggles. Just to watch him play and be alongside him, I’m pretty lucky to have that opportunity.”

This year, Guentzel was the rookie who burst onto the scene. The 22-year-old Nebraska-born forward raised in Minnesota had 13 goals and eight assists in the postseason to tie for the NHL record for playoff points by a rookie. Guentzel shares the record with Dino Ciccarelli and Ville Leino.

“From the day I walked in, Sidney Crosby took me under his wing,” Guentzel said. “He always talked to me. He went out of his way to make me feel welcome.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-...ics--hoists-stanley-cup-as-mvp-064228899.html

According to GM Jim Rutherford, the reason the Penguins passed that chemistry test this season was Crosby.

“He’s really a great leader,” he said. “Everybody judges Sid on his points and how many goals he gets and all of that. But he’s really an all-around player. He plays in all zones of the rink. He leads by example. But he does things quietly.”

https://www.nhl.com/news/gordie-howe-reveals-what-career-advice-he-gave-to-sidney-crosby/c-364336

DETROIT - Gordie Howe, who was such a great player in his day that he was christened Mr. Hockey, had some simple words of advice when he spoke with Sidney Crosby.

"I sat down and talked to him for a little while and I was impressed because he could stare a hole through you," said Howe, who is 80 now. "There's not a word goes by he doesn't connect with.

"When he was leaving, I said, 'Do me one favour and don't change anything. Just be the kid you are, the player you are.'

"I met him and I've seen him play. Unless you put two guys on him, he'll kill you in a game. Don't worry about him. He's going to be successful in the long run. Everywhere you look you see Crosby's picture, and it's earned."

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/a...s-sidney-crosbys-commitment-to-getting-better

PALM BEACH, Fla. - The more Steve Yzerman watches Sidney Crosby play, the more things he finds to like.

The Tampa Bay Lightning general manager believes Crosby has taken his game to another level this season for the Pittsburgh Penguins.

"He's a great example for all young players that here we have one of the best players in our game, a young guy just driven to get better in all areas," Yzerman said Tuesday after the NHL's board of governors meeting. "It's so important because he can play in all situations and score the goal, set up the goal, he can win the faceoff, he'll block a shot.

"How valuable is that?"

Crosby has been on a tear for the last month, putting up 18 goals and 33 points during a 16-game point streak. He'll look to extend it when the Toronto Maple Leafs visit Pittsburgh on Wednesday.

The 23-year-old entered Tuesday with an eight-point lead in the scoring race over Lightning forward Steven Stamkos.

"He's just getting better every year," Yzerman said of Crosby. "He really works at every part of his game. You've just watched him develop in all aspects of the game whether it be his faceoff percentage, his shot—he's scoring goals in different ways—he's always been a goal-scorer, but he's added a wrist shot coming down the wing, a one-timer on the power play."

"He's just continually adding to it."

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports...Predators_an_appreciation___Mike_Sielski.html

"He's amazing," said former NHL goaltender Kevin Weekes, who analyzes the league for the NHL Network. "The thing with Sid is he wants to be great every night. For as skilled as he is, it's his willingness every night to compete, to battle. As much as those things are inherent for any player in the league, for him it's at a different level. It's like wanting to be Michael Jordan every time on the floor. The greats have that."

"You ask anybody in Pittsburgh - they never worry about that with Sid," Weekes said. "Whatever it is, whatever the one-on-one battle, you know you're getting a max effort and max attention to detail with Sidney Crosby. You can't put a price on that. Sometimes that supersedes your skill set. Sometimes it complements it."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/spo...ckey-game-is-a-full-time-job/article33664473/

But ask the Pittsburgh Penguins captain’s teammates about the most memorable, striking aspect of his play and the odds are they won’t cite anything he’s done in a game.

“We get to marvel at Sid during practice, watching him do different things … when people don’t get to watch him,” veteran winger Chris Kunitz said.

Youngster Bryan Rust, who has spent much of this season on Crosby’s line, remarked on the attention his centre pays to preparation, and his unrelenting competitiveness.

“Even in a shooting drill in practice, he’s battling out rebounds, he’s trying to get the puck in the net as much as he can. He has that drive, he does that hard work, and he stays on the ice after practice to do those little things like batting [pucks] out of the air, things you wouldn’t necessarily work on,” said Rust, a 24-year-old in third season.

https://www.nhl.com/penguins/news/mvp-puts-sidney-crosby-in-rare-company/c-282269592

"I don't think much about that company, I just think about serial winners, and that's what he is, he just wins," Team Canada coach Mike Babcock said of Crosby. "Sid's unbelievable. He's great to be around. I've been real lucky, I've been around him now three times and we win every time."

"[Crosby] does it right," Babcock said. "He works hard. He doesn't complain. If he gets 15 minutes (of ice time), he doesn't say a word. If he gets 20 minutes, he doesn't say a word. If he misses three shifts in a row, he doesn't say a word. If the penalty kill is out there and he's not playing -- whatever he's gotta do -- and then in the biggest moments he turns it up.

"When you look at guys like him and [Bergeron] and obviously [Jonathan Toews], in the biggest moments, they're better. They can't help themselves. They're addicted to winning and they just make it happen."

https://www.nhl.com/news/sidney-crosby-legacy-lifted-by-second-stanley-cup/c-280923982

Adding his second Stanley Cup to gold medals won in 2010 and 2014 garnered the respect of the hockey community too.

"When you're able to combine both the Stanley Cup and the gold medal, I think it says a lot about the leadership you have, the player, the performance," said Brodeur, a three-time Cup champion. "Doing both one time is one thing, but when you start adding 'em up, I think it justifies a little more who you are. When you win the second one, it just validates that the first one wasn't a fluke."

"That is another part of his journey that, to me, is impressive," said Niedermayer, a four-time Cup champion. "I'm sure he's had times when there has been a lot of frustration and questioning, whether it be his own game, his teammates, the organization or whatever. You wonder when things aren't going well. The expectations were that they would have been back in more Finals than they've been and maybe won a couple more along the way. To have the determination to stick with it is something that he should be proud of and it should be regarded highly from other people."

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...y-crosby-evgeni-malkin-dominant-one-two-punch

"He score, I want to score, too. If he scores one more, I want to score one more, too. If he score hat trick, I stop," said Malkin, joking. "I want to be better every day. Because I watch Sid every practice, he is so much professional guy. Most professional I've ever seen. I want to be the same. I want to be professional and be better every day."

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/penguins/s_570113.html

That steely focus is one of Crosby's many attributes Yzerman finds appealing.

"I've watched how he conducts himself, and I like the way he plays," said Yzerman, who retired in 2006 as the sixth-leading scorer in NHL history and a three-time Cup champion. "He's an extremely talented kid, but he competes hard.

"I've been very impressed watching from afar."

"You look at the guy, and it's, like, amazing - what he does," forward Max Talbot said. "He's been the center of attention since he was (14). Yes, the kid has got skill, but that's not what impresses me the most. At practice he is always 110 percent. He's got that fire in his eyes. He's all about the game, and he wants to win.

"He's one of the best players in the game. But it's not about the skill that he brings. It's about everything else. He's the best."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/ducks/la-sp-penguins-crosby-elliott-20161102-story.html

Ducks right wing Corey Perry, Crosby’s World Cup and Olympic teammate, has seen Crosby’s work ethic up close and marvels at it.

“He’s a heck of a hockey player and he puts in a lot of work, a lot of time, and he takes care of himself,” Perry said. “When you see a guy like that, the talent and all the accolades he’s accomplished over the years, to still do that and still want to be the best player in the world speaks volumes for the kind of guy he is.”

As for that search for the next Crosby, hold off. This one is still pretty good.

“And will be for some time, because of his preparation and his determination,” Rutherford said. “He’s taken such good care of himself. We know there’s players that get to a certain point in their careers and they start to drop a little bit, but that is a number of years away for Sid.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/halifa...-for-gala-and-golf-tournament-in-halifax.html

“He’s an incredible person,” Lemieux said of Crosby. “He does so much on the ice, but also off the ice with his foundation here. He’s a great kid and I love having him around.”

Which is good, since Crosby moved in with Lemieux’s family when he moved to Pittsburgh at 18 years old, after being drafted first overall in the 2005 NHL Draft.

“We thought we would add him to our house for a year or two, and he ended up staying eight years,” Lemieux said with a chuckle.

“But it was incredible to have him around the kids. The kids were young at the time – and they love Sidney and Sidney loves the kids.”

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/19611090/2017-stanley-cup-finals-sidney-crosby-best-all

"There are a lot of veterans who have played in the National Hockey League who would say to those guys, 'Hey, get me the puck,'" Boucher said. "But he's very inclusive and very supportive, and he's a big reason those young players are having success. They feel comfortable playing with a star like Sidney Crosby, and that tells me he's a tremendous teammate."

"He can go down the entire Penguins lineup," Armstrong said, "and tell you five good things about every guy and how much he means to the team, even the guy who isn't playing. He has a large amount of respect for what everyone brings to the team. I hate to use a cliché term like down-to-earth, but when you have a guy like him being that inclusive, it bleeds through your whole locker room."

"The thing that stands out to me is this guy is so driven and so tenacious. I told my son this: 'If you're going to watch one guy play hockey and model your game after, it's Sidney Crosby. He doesn't give up on plays, he gets his nose in there and he works. He's driven.'"

https://www.nhl.com/news/sidney-cro...-with-third-cup-win/c-289892518?tid=287345494

And drive. Don't forget drive. That's what defenseman Kris Letang first noticed in the days after the Penguins won the Stanley Cup last year.

"Right after we won the Cup he said, 'I'm going right back skating and I want to win the World Cup, and I want to keep that momentum going into the season to win another Cup,'" Letang said. "The way he came into training camp after the World Cup, we knew he wanted to accomplish something. I knew right away this could happen."

http://www.tsn.ca/with-three-cups-sid-passes-super-mario-as-emperor-penguin-1.776140

“He’s a guy that just knows how to win,” Mike Sullivan said, who is now 8-0 in playoff series as coach of the Penguins. “He’s done it in all different venues, whether it be the NHL and the Stanley Cup to the World Cup to the Olympics. He has a willingness to go the extra mile, to control what he can, to be the very best, and he cares so much for this team and this organization helping us win. I have to believe that it would be hard to not have him in that conversation of the all-time greats.”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tories/201702160215+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

He had chances. His line with Kunitz and Jake Guentzel was plenty productive. They simply weren’t going in. And Crosby was getting asked more and more about shooting for 1,000.

“He could have been done way earlier than that,” Kris Letang said. ?We didn’t care about it. Sid is a guy that doesn’t focus on that. The team winning is more important than anything for him.”

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...offs-best-quotes-stanley-cup-finals-media-day

"I'm fortunate to play with one of the best players in the world," Hagelin said. "It's fun to see him in practice and that's something people may not think about. He's a real grinder, always out there trying to get better. He skates extremely hard in practice and for me to come to a team like this, he's welcomed me with open arms and has been great. He's been extremely kind to me and has definitely made this whole transition easy."

http://www.startribune.com/penguins-young-and-old-benefit-from-sidney-crosby-s-leadership/426230971/

Veteran Matt Cullen said Crosby is not only this way with youngsters.

“He’s one of the best just all-around teammates I’ve ever had,” said Cullen, 40. “He doesn’t get enough credit for that. Obviously he’s one of the best players to ever play the game, and everybody agrees with that, but I was impressed off the ice how he really makes a point of going out of his way to make everybody feel a part of the team. I was a 38-year-old veteran coming to the team last year, but he went out of his way to offer to help me look for houses or help me with any transitions that I needed for the kids. He has a lot on his plate. I think there’s more asked of him than any player in the league, and he’s accommodating when it comes with the media, with everything. He’s as good as they get. And it’s all genuine.

“You see that with young guys like Guentzel or [Conor] Sheary last year. He goes out of his way to make people feel comfortable within the group. That goes a long way. Think it’s easy for a kid like Guentzel to come up and immediately be put on a line with Sid? No way, but when Sid makes you feel comfortable on the side, it goes a long way to making you feel comfortable playing next to him on the ice.”

https://www.nhl.com/news/penguins-win-one-for-injured-crosby/c-425579

Max Talbot, who scored the Penguins' two goals Friday night, has known Crosby for almost a decade. He know the pressure that Crosby has been under throughout that time, first in junior hockey and then with Team Canada at the World Juniors and finally with the Penguins, where Crosby was ordained as the "Next One," the inheritor of the mantle of greatness handed down from Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux, the former star player and current owner of the Penguins.

"You know what, he is our team," Talbot said. "He is the heart and soul of the Pittsburgh Penguins. I think everybody knows that. If they don't, well, I'm telling you, he is our leader. What he brings every day to the rink is special. The pressure he had to go through to become that player is really special.

"He respects the game. He loves the game. And you know what, today is so special to win that for him, with him.

http://www.pittsburghsportsreport.com/2009Issues/psr0906/09060101.html

"He can just take over a game," said teammate Mark Eaton. "In particular you could see it the last games of the Washington series, where he just kind of tried to put the team on his back. He's our leader, and you can tell from the get-go he wants to go out there and lead by example.

"When he's on the way he's been, he's tough to stop. He's inspiring all of us in the dressing room, to see him go out there every night and throw it all out there on the line, you can only try and do the same." Both Eaton and Rob Scuderi, however, point out that Crosby's focus in the cauldron of the playoffs really isn't anything different than they see every day once training camp starts.

"Pretty much from the first day I've played with him, he's been the same," Scuderi said. "He's grown as a player, but as far as the way he works and the way he practices, I don't think anything has changed. It's all about leadership. You want your leaders to go out there and play the same way, whether it's a practice or a game, you want them to try hard, you want them to do the right things and play the right way, and he's certainly done that since the first day he's been in the league."

But with that being said, I think people also forget how damn talented he is and was in his prime. Just some random compilation highlights of his. He's done some things that very few players in league history were/are capable of. Pens fans and true hockey fans have been very blessed to see him over the years. Great, great player, but every bit as good a person as you'll find.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I thought Letang was more significant as I was watching, although Letang also had some Letang moments that you can mark against him.

Also - frankly that win felt like a huge team win. Rolling three scoring lines wave after wave, and playing great team D, while getting timely goaltending from Murray. So this is also one of those years where whoever won the Smythe was going to kind of be a weak winner historically, because it was such a team effort.

This was my final "ballot"

1. Phil Kessel
2. Sidney Crosby
3. Kristopher Letang
4. Brent Burns
5. Logan Couture

Letang was ahead of Crosby going into the Final, but Crosby was really, really good in the Final. That said, I think if Kessel had buried one of his last five A+ chances, he might have won it anyway...

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'd warn against cherry-picking videos to represent a 20 year career, however...

What this video did was make me wish I had Robinson even higher than I had him on my list. Not as good as the video of him spanking Dave Schultz, or rag dolling Ted Irvine, but man, Robinson was the total package. To reiterate what I said earlier, I'd take him and Potvin in their prime over almost any defenseman who ever played.

Enlighten us.

How is one video/incident Robinson v Schultz representative while another Robinson v Messier is "cherry-picking"?

Overlooking that you did not post Robinson v Messier.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Enlighten us.

How is one video/incident Robinson v Schultz representative while another Robinson v Messier is "cherry-picking"?

Overlooking that you did not post Robinson v Messier.

Power in words...
I said it made me "wish" I had Robinson higher, because as much as I admired him, isolated incidences like that made me admire the player even more. He was a steadying force as well as a game-changer.

And you're right, I did not post Robinson versus Messier because we try not to spend too much time comparing players who aren't up yet.

 

[bobholly39]

I forgot Messier honestly. I disagree on Crosby. Crosby has quite a few disappointing runs (pretty much 12-15 were some variations of bad to very bad). And 16 was really unimpressive and I award a retro non-Smythe for that one (Kessel or Letang had better arguments, and failing that Murray at least had a solid run).

I also disagree with your contention that the state of their teams shouldn't play a factor. Lidstrom behind the RW not only inflates his numbers, it gives far more opportunities, and that should absolutely be taken into account. We're judging players based on their impact, so saying "oh well, should've had a better team" seems pretty stupid in that context. That's a big reason why the 50s Habs are so over-represented in this and we aren't contextualizing other performances well enough.

Okay I figured you forgot on Messier.

Crosby - 12-15. He has 36 points in 38 playoff games. Not bad at first glance. Let's ignore whether I agree or disagree with your assessment that those years were disappointing for him - my big issue with you stating that (and apparently holding those as a negative mark against him) is - are you doing the same for other players in this project whose playoffs you didn't witness first hand and are instead judging based on stats and results? I'd expect for the majority of players it's no.

It's easy to get a bit too caught up in judging current players based on what we saw and holding negatives against them - but we're unable to hold similar negatives against players of past eras who we didn't see. That's why i try to rank positives more then deduct points for negatives, to a certain extent.

How many of Messier's playoff runs were disappointing? Does he have more than 4 and do you similarly hold those against him? Potvin? Plante? I'm just saying all players likely have some, and i'm hearing too much of those accounts for active players (and this is not only Crosby - it's true of Jagr and Ovi so far as well in this round).

No point to go down the rabbit hole of the 16 smythe. Suffice it to say he was a top performer in a cup winning performance and was awarded a smythe. Big plus for his playoffs overall - even if you maybe don't count that smythe as much as others, it's still a positive for his resume.

Finally the last comment about teams not playing a factor. My line of thinking is - players who play on good teams (let alone dynasties) get more opportunities to play games and series than those who play on bad teams. Well good for them and too bad for others. Opportunities aren't created equally in the playoffs, and those with more games should still get the benefit of longevity.
Of course a better playoff player with less games played can still be better. And quality of teammates/team and what you accomplished individually with a weak team can help.
But i'm talking strictly in terms of longevity. Guys who played on dynasties get more long playoff runs and often it'll end up being a diffentiating factor to rank them ahead of a slightly better player but with much less games played.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Why would Lidström skate around and hit people when he can stay in position and execute his subtle holding instead? It's all about the effectiveness.

Yeah because Bourque, Stevens, Potvin and all other all time great physical defensemen were not...

It's hockey and hockey is a physical game and Bourque could deliver something that Lidstrom couldn't when it was necessary.

 

[The Macho King]

Okay I figured you forgot on Messier.

Crosby - 12-15. He has 36 points in 38 playoff games. Not bad at first glance. Let's ignore whether I agree or disagree with your assessment that those years were disappointing for him - my big issue with you stating that (and apparently holding those as a negative mark against him) is - are you doing the same for other players in this project whose playoffs you didn't witness first hand and are instead judging based on stats and results? I'd expect for the majority of players it's no.

It's easy to get a bit too caught up in judging current players based on what we saw and holding negatives against them - but we're unable to hold similar negatives against players of past eras who we didn't see. That's why i try to rank positives more then deduct points for negatives, to a certain extent.

How many of Messier's playoff runs were disappointing? Does he have more than 4 and do you similarly hold those against him? Potvin? Plante? I'm just saying all players likely have some, and i'm hearing too much of those accounts for active players (and this is not only Crosby - it's true of Jagr and Ovi so far as well in this round).

No point to go down the rabbit hole of the 16 smythe. Suffice it to say he was a top performer in a cup winning performance and was awarded a smythe. Big plus for his playoffs overall - even if you maybe don't count that smythe as much as others, it's still a positive for his resume.

Finally the last comment about teams not playing a factor. My line of thinking is - players who play on good teams (let alone dynasties) get more opportunities to play games and series than those who play on bad teams. Well good for them and too bad for others. Opportunities aren't created equally in the playoffs, and those with more games should still get the benefit of longevity.
Of course a better playoff player with less games played can still be better. And quality of teammates/team and what you accomplished individually with a weak team can help.
But i'm talking strictly in terms of longevity. Guys who played on dynasties get more long playoff runs and often it'll end up being a diffentiating factor to rank them ahead of a slightly better player but with much less games played.

Frankly - the last point is why I (generally) rank playoffs pretty low in my criteria. In the regular season, opportunity is spread pretty evenly. In the playoffs - less so. But to your point - we've dissected a lot of players playoffs/season by season that I haven't seen. Howe's playoff performances were dissected (as were Richard and others). Also - I'd note that statistically Crosby's playoffs from 12-15 were *not* that impressive stastitically, even looking beyond the PPG. He was a minus player in each of those four seasons, and disappeared in some big series (most notably the CF against Boston in '13).

For me it's Peak/Prime/Longevity/Playoffs/Other, but Playoffs are an important factor in distinguishing players that are otherwise close. I don't think Bourque is close to many people in this ranking. Hasek is #1, but after that I don't see anyone who I would take over him. His peak is competitive with anyone's other than Hasek (probably a smidge behind Potvin's), his Prime is better than anybody's by a big distance, longevity is no friggin contest, and I think (outside of the players previously mentioned), his playoffs - even despite the relative dearth of opportunities for him - compare favorably to anyone else.

 

[seventieslord]

Vezina meant something different back then, it was purely statistical

Plante in AST voting 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2

Agree, thank you for the much needed reminder. Don't quote number of Vezinas pre-1982 unless you care about the number of Jennings trophies post-82. Allstar voting is what's telling us about contemporary opinion.

I say this as someone with a great deal of respect for Plante and his highly balanced resume. There's no way I'd vote for Glenn Hall over him. But let's be clear about who observers actually thought was having better regular Seasons (narrowly on three occasions, I should mention)

 

[overg]

I also disagree with your contention that the state of their teams shouldn't play a factor. Lidstrom behind the RW not only inflates his numbers, it gives far more opportunities, and that should absolutely be taken into account. We're judging players based on their impact, so saying "oh well, should've had a better team" seems pretty stupid in that context. That's a big reason why the 50s Habs are so over-represented in this and we aren't contextualizing other performances well enough.

Teams should definitely be factored into the equation. No man is an island, and all of that. But it's important not to overcompensate. Yes, Bourque probably outperformed his teammates more than Lidstrom did. But Lidstrom's teams significantly outperformed Bourque's. During Lidstrom's career, Detroit (1) never missed the playoffs (the only team to make that claim) and in fact had the longest active string of playoffs in NA professional sports, (2) won more playoff rounds than any other team in the NHL, (3) played in more Stanley Cup finals than any other team (six) and (3) won more Stanley Cups than any other team. In short, the Wings were the best playoff team in the league during Lidstrom's career, and I don't believe anyone else really came all that close.

If Bourque overperformed his teammates more than Lidstrom *and* the Bruins equaled or exceeded the Wings, *then* you could call Bourque the better playoff performer.

Which brings me to the playoff R-On figures which Hockey Outsider posted yesterday.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm having a hard time seeing how these numbers paint Lidstrom as anything other than one of the best playoff performers this round. The "R-Off" and "Increase" columns only show that Lidstrom played for a really strong team. Given that his team was the most successful NHL team over his career, that really shouldn't be surprising, or any kind of indictment against Lidstrom.

"R-On" would seem to be the column which shows how well Lidstrom performed. If I follow correctly, anything over a 1.0 means a player's team "won" when he was on the ice (scoring more goals than they gave up), while anything below a 1.0 means the team "lost" while he was on ice (giving up more goals than they scored). By this metric, Potvin had the best playoff peak, averaging an R-On of 2.034 over his five longest runs. Here's how they shake out by my math.

Potvin 2.034
Lidstrom 1.852
Mikita 1.834
Messier 1.708
Bourque 1.650
Jagr 1.290
Crosby 1.262
Ovechkin 1.15 (4 runs)

One big point in Lidstrom and Messier's favor. They are the only two players who did not have a run under 1.0 during their longest 5 playoffs. So while neither of them peaked as high as, say, Potvin (who was simply ridiculous a couple of years), they showed up and beat their opponents during every deep run.

On the flip side, Crosby was below 1.0 in two of his five runs, while Ovechkin dipped below that mark 3 out of 4 times.

So unless I'm misunderstanding these charts, I draw pretty different conclusions from them than Hockey Outsider did. While Messier and Lidstrom both suffer in the "increase" columns due to having strong teammates, they were the most consistently valuable skaters from this round. And as far as Lidstrom v. Bourque, Lidstrom is closer to Potvin than Bourque is to Lidstrom.

 

[Doctor No]

And AST voting was not? Counting of games missed.

No, All-Star Team voting was not "purely statistical". Yes, voters surely considered numbers available, but it's far different from pre-1980s Vezina Trophy awards.

 

[The Macho King]

Before I give this credence - wtf is R-on. I'm assuming it's measuring *something* during the time a player is on ice versus off-ice, but what exactly is it measuring.

Moreover, does it factor in the quality of players a player is on ice *with* when quantifying their R-on. For instance, I'd much rather have Chris Chelios or Brian Rafalski as a D partner than whatever anchor Bourque was hauling around.

Third - this:

If Bourque overperformed his teammates more than Lidstrom *and* the Bruins equaled or exceeded the Wings, *then* you could call Bourque the better playoff performer.

My mind is fried. There's no logical coherence to this statement. I didn't base my assessment of Bourque entirely on the fact that he (as a Dman) outperformed his teammates - it was to highlight that the success the Bruins *did* have, which is actually fairly impressive considering, is disproportionately owed to Bourque. There was no qualitative assessment of Lidstrom's playoffs in there at all, so I don't really see where this statement comes from.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yeah because Bourque, Stevens, Potvin and all other all time great physical defensemen were not...

It's hockey and hockey is a physical game and Bourque could deliver something that Lidstrom couldn't when it was necessary.

Subtle holding only goes so far.

Zero Norris wins before Chelios arrived tells plenty.