Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[K Fleur]

Red Wings won 4 SCs also. Penguins 5 SCs since 1990.

Sorry maybe I should have been more clear, that statement wasn’t meant to be strictly cup counting

The Oilers 4 cup winning teams of the 80’s were Gretzky’s teams.

There are distinct differences between the star/core players of the Penguins two 90’s cup winning teams, and their 3 00’s- cup winning teams.

Same for the Red Wings in the difference between their 3 championships from 97-02 and their one in 2008.

 

[pappyline]

Should Hull's 7 years in the WHA be ignored completely?

303 goals (2nd in WHA), 638 points (3rd) and the highest points per game average with two league championships and 7 goals in 8 games against the Soviets in the 1974 Summit Series. Hull led the tourney in goals and in points, ahead of Yakushev (8), Kharlamov and Petrov (7 each), Mikhailov (6). 46-year-old Gordie Howe scored 7 points against Tretiak. The WHA team lost the series, but not due to either Hull or Howe, producing at the highest level.

Most certainly, Hull's WHA years should be taken into account. Note that bobby Hull was 35 when he led the 1974 summit in scoring. He was also playing with an arm injury during the last few games. At age 37 in Canada cup 1976 he had 5 goals and 3 assists. That was tops in goals for Canada and tied with a Soviet and a Czech for tops in the tournament. I think this serves as proof that he would continue as a top NHL player if he stayed.

As far as the WHA is concerned, 70'slord came up with a factor of 70% to convert WHA numbers to NHL numbers. If we accept this that means his 77 goals would convert to 54.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

No there is zero case for him to crack the top 4.

We're still awaiting your explanation as to why Lemeiux is indisputably top 4 or better, despite both the data and verbal recollections of his career suggesting strongly that he is by far the weakest defensive player available in this round.

At this point, Lemieux is my #4 by acclamation. Nobody has made a compelling case for anyone besides Gretzky, Howe, or Orr to rank ahead of him. But nobody has cemented #66's standing as an automatic top-4 either.

I will add to this. Harvey finished 6th in scoring on his own team that season and 7th among defenseman in the league while sporting his -9 on a team that made the playoffs but had a .0457 winning percentage. The other guy you mentioned and his team fared much better in these metrics so you've got it backwards. Don't let facts get in the way.

Well, we're left with two possibilities to consider here: One, Harvey was totally overrated in his own time and the Hart Trophy voters were simply stupid. Or two, his impact can't be well appreciated by scraping a few basic stats 60 years down the road, and further investigation of his career is necessary to square the available data with his reputation as the greatest pre-Orr defenseman.

 

[MXD]

Most certainly, Hull's WHA years should be taken into account. Note that bobby Hull was 35 when he led the 1974 summit in scoring. He was also playing with an arm injury during the last few games. At age 37 in Canada cup 1976 he had 5 goals and 3 assists. That was tops in goals for Canada and tied with a Soviet and a Czech for tops in the tournament. I think this serves as proof that he would continue as a top NHL player if he stayed.

As far as the WHA is concerned, 70'slord came up with a factor of 70% to convert WHA numbers to NHL numbers. If we accept this that means his 77 goals would convert to 54.

Yep.
I think we can reasonably surmise that Bobby Hull would've been good enough to be key contributor in the NHL up to +/- 1978. Nowhere near his mid-sixties level, not winning Art Ross, not leading the league in goalscoring, but still contributing.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sorry maybe I should have been more clear, that statement wasn’t meant to be strictly cup counting

The Oilers 4 cup winning teams of the 80’s were Gretzky’s teams.

There are distinct differences between the star/core players of the Penguins two 90’s cup winning teams, and their 3 00’s- cup winning teams.

Same for the Red Wings in the difference between their 3 championships from 97-02 and their one in 2008.

Exactly which goes to the point that a key Detroit defenceman could rally the diverse units for success.

Likewise Gretzky's rival on the Oilers rallied his Oiler faction to success in 1990 integrating new players then took his entourage to New York( 7 former SC Oilers) creating SC winning conditions in 1994.

Penguins, similarly with Lemieux kept his players, churning the rest yet maintained winning conditions until Mario disagreed with Scotty. Similarly later 3 SCs.

The mantra about post Edmonton Gretzky is bad teams. Really it comes down to a non-winning entourage. Best chance 1993. Gretzky and five former SC Oilers are SC finalists.

 

[VanIslander]

Well, we're left with two possibilities to consider here: One, Harvey was totally overrated in his own time and the Hart Trophy voters were simply stupid. Or two, his impact can't be well appreciated by scraping a few basic stats 60 years down the road, and further investigation of his career is necessary to square the available data with his reputation as the greatest pre-Orr defenseman.

The "reputation as the greatest pre-Orr defenseman" will be referenced later, as the guy isn't among the 10 we're allowed to talk about here. Suffice it to say, whatever reputation Harvey has to that title, it's likely to be revisionist if not in fact HfBoards or Habs fans based.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The "reputation as the greatest pre-Orr defenseman" will be referenced later, as the guy isn't among the 10 we're allowed to talk about here. Suffice it to say, whatever reputation Harvey has to that title, it's likely to be revisionist if not in fact HfBoards or Habs fans based.

I'm not suggesting it's a consensus opinion or anything. But yes, it will be visited closer in the next round.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Being the only guy who had to compete with Gretzky was a pretty high bar to begin with.

Based on what Lemieux actually did, Wayne Gretzky may have prevented Mario Lemieux from winning up to 6 Harts and 8 Art Ross Trophies in 12 years from 1985 to 1997 (omits 1995 lockout year that he skipped). You have to project Messier down by a couple points and assume the Ross is worth the Hart in 1987.

But even with missed time, he played well enough to have earned those awards against almost any other competition. Lemieux has a 141 point year where he was second in Hart voting and it's completely worthless in this thread because a peak Gretzky scored 215 (and could have won the Ross with only his 163 assists or only his 143 even strength points or I don't know, only however many points he scored on weekdays) and won the Hart instead.

But assuming it's Lemieux's 5th-7th best year (88, 89, 93, 96, probably better than but in the ballpark of 92 or 97) is it not a better year than the other 2 had against lesser competition? Say Howe's 1960 Hart season or one of Orr's first 2 Norrises?

Or maybe I need sleep. To that end, I'd say Roy has the best shot at 4 just by being a different position and playoffs and such, but that flies in the face contemporary opinions given that the likely #4 has the same birthday no matter how difficult it is to compare goaltenders to forwards.

a few thoughts—

i don’t think anyone is discounting mario’s monster totals in the few years pre-1989, when he clearly establishes himself in year two as already in a different league than stastny, savard, hawerchuk.

is mario’s comp in his 5th-7th best season (hull without oates, kariya/selanne) really better than the best of orr’s comp (clarke, espo—remember orr’s 5th and 6th best years are not his first two seasons) or howe’s (the better hull, beliveau)?

and re: mario in a gretzky-less world, by the same token if orr didn’t propel his own teammate (a great player in his own right, don’t get me wrong) to historically high numbers, that’s five art rosses in six years before he can’t play anymore, and the sixth year is a narrow loss to clarke where he murders the rest of the league in points/game. all to say, mario had to conpete with wayne, which i think we all acknowledge, but at least he wasn’t literally boosting wayne’s numbers above himself.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

We're still awaiting your explanation as to why Lemeiux is indisputably top 4 or better, despite both the data and verbal recollections of his career suggesting strongly that he is by far the weakest defensive player available in this round.

At this point, Lemieux is my #4 by acclamation. Nobody has made a compelling case for anyone besides Gretzky, Howe, or Orr to rank ahead of him. But nobody has cemented #66's standing as an automatic top-4 either.



Well, we're left with two possibilities to consider here: One, Harvey was totally overrated in his own time and the Hart Trophy voters were simply stupid. Or two, his impact can't be well appreciated by scraping a few basic stats 60 years down the road, and further investigation of his career is necessary to square the available data with his reputation as the greatest pre-Orr defenseman.

3 harts+ three second place finishes
6 art Ross
4 Lindsay’s
3 Richards
B2b smythes (78 points combined)

199 points
160 in 60
46 game point streak
I could go on. No other player comes close

 

[ImporterExporter]

And the conditions for Edmont's dynasty are quite clear.

Took advantage of the Islanders aging and burning out and the Penguins struggles through the 80's which had a lot to do with terrible financials/horrific leadership at the top. The league adopted (or at least didn't do anything to slow) a wide open style to cater to it's superstars. I don't even blame them (the league), but the Oilers of the 80's were loaded. And they won a cup almostly directly after Gretzky left. Maybe they wouldn't have won those 4 Cups in 5 years without Wayne but Messier and company proved they didn't need that offensive brilliance to reach the pinnacle.

That's why I compare Orr's impact to Gretzky's in terms of team successes. The Bruins hadn't won a title in 30 years until Orr led them there. And then didn't win another title for nearly 40 years after he was gone.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Explain how players like Howe, Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Dickie Moore, managed to win the Art Ross while playing excellent defensive hockey.

i think the point you’re responding to assumes that those other players could have won their scoring titles by larger margins if they had gone more full offense.

(i’m not cosigning it, just clarifying.)

 

[Captain Bowie]

3 harts+ three second place finishes
6 art Ross
4 Lindsay’s
3 Richards
B2b smythes (78 points combined)

199 points
160 in 60
46 game point streak
I could go on. No other player comes close

You are not stating anything that anyone participating in this project is not aware of already. Your bias is quite clear, so people are going to take anything you say with a grain of salt. We are looking for a little deeper breakdown than simple trophy counting here. If you are unable to provide such an argument, that's fine, but just repeating his trophy case isn't going to convince anyone who has a different view as you.

 

[Iceman]

Submitted mine.

 

[MXD]

The "reputation as the greatest pre-Orr defenseman" will be referenced later, as the guy isn't among the 10 we're allowed to talk about here. Suffice it to say, whatever reputation Harvey has to that title, it's likely to be revisionist if not in fact HfBoards or Habs fans based.

Can we get rid of this bullshit right away? ... I know it's not super obvious, but I'm not talking about the participant here.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

You're not convincing a steak eater to turn vegan and you're not convincing a vegan to turn steak eater.

only slightly here and there, but i’ve seen both happen many times.

all to say, there is hope yet.

 

[Canadiens1958]

i think the point you’re responding to assumes that those other players could have won their scoring titles by larger margins if they had gone more full offense.

(i’m not cosigning it, just clarifying.)

No. The opposite. They received the extra ice time needed to win the Art Ross because they could play defensive hockey generating offence.

Example.Gordie Howe at home, last change goes to the Red Wings. If Moore and Hull could not play defensively against Howe, they freeze on the bench with reduced ice time.

Likewise against other scoring RWs.

 

[K Fleur]

I think Lemieux belongs firmly in the #4 spot until someone presents a compelling argument as to why he does not, and who does.

Seeing as this thread is now 40 pages long I don’t think the argument exists.

 

[danincanada]

Well, we're left with two possibilities to consider here: One, Harvey was totally overrated in his own time and the Hart Trophy voters were simply stupid. Or two, his impact can't be well appreciated by scraping a few basic stats 60 years down the road, and further investigation of his career is necessary to square the available data with his reputation as the greatest pre-Orr defenseman.

There's kind of a third option as well. How about attempting to put into perspective what it actually meant to finish 5th in Hart voting in a 6 team league? A "most valuable to his team" award has far less competition with only 6 teams, again, especially when 2 or 3 of those teams are just fodder for the 3 or 4 strong teams.

Only once did Harvey finish ahead of all teammates in Hart voting while with the Habs and that year Beliveau missed 15 games and Henri Richard was right behind Harvey in voting.

This is all before even pointing out that it was practically a domestic league in terms of talent. It's simply not apples to apples when comparing it with a much larger league with far more streams of talent, no matter how many times people try to pretend it is.

 

[ImporterExporter]

BTW, Gretzky's Kings lost to Messier's Oilers in 90 and 91 and then a Messier-less Oiler squad in 92 in the playoffs.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I think Lemieux belongs firmly in the #4 spot until someone presents a compelling argument as to why he does not, and who does.

Seeing as this thread is now 40 pages long I don’t think the argument exists.

I'm in the exact same boat. Nothing presented has pushed me away from my original 99>4>9>66 rankings. If anything, solidified them.

 

[ResilientBeast]

BTW, Gretzky's Kings lost to Messier's Oilers in 90 and 91 and then a Messier-less Oiler squad in 92 in the playoffs.

And you point with this?

It's a team game

 

[Captain Bowie]

BTW, Gretzky's Kings lost to Messier's Oilers in 90 and 91 and then a Messier-less Oiler squad in 92 in the playoffs.

Kings beat the Oilers in 89 though.

The Kings were not exactly deep teams at that time anyways. Kelly Hrudey's GAA was a full goal worse than Bill Ranfords in 89/90.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Voted

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Random thought - I'm pretty sure I know how I'm voting, but I would still love to find some newspaper or magazine articles from the late 70s/early 80s as to whether Howe or Orr was considered the GOAT at the time.

 

[quoipourquoi]

New thread: (Son of) Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1