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Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

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Can’t say I understand the Keith but not Kane crowd. Kane’s actually been elected the best player at his position more often - and probably would have added a 4th designation had he not gotten injured while leading the NHL in scoring in 2014-15. He even ascended to the heights of league MVP, taking it in a landslide. Conn Smythe was on the weaker side, but he was the leading playoff scorer in 2015 and had 28 points in 2010, so how much of a lead does Keith generate from the playoffs to off-set how much better Kane has been in the regular season since Keith’s last Norris in 2013-14?
 
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ted1971 said:
Did anyone have Mark Howe at # 80 or higher?
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You'd need over 20 dmen in your top 80 for that, eh? The last combined position HOH project had 17 dmen in the top 70. That was about right.

The ATD lists waaaaay overrepresent dmen early in the draft. Hopefully we don't replicate that here, especially with so many star forwards to honor.

So, unless you think there aren't 20 greater dmen in hockey history, Mark wouldn't be listed so high.

Heck I have MacInnis just inside the top80 and Stevens just outside of it.
 
quoipourquoi said:
Can’t say I understand the Keith but not Kane crowd.
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In some minds, Keith compares more favorably to other defensemen (eg., Langway, Lapointe, Kasatonov, Johnson) than Kane does to the plethora of star forwards (it's defensible to have Syd Howe, Doug Bentley, Sid Abel and Alex Maltsev over Kane, not to mention a bevy of centers like Ullman, Stewart, Lach, Malone, Cowley, Thornton).

I'm not saying Kane isn't deserving, just that it's understandable how reasonable voters could have ranked Keith but not Kane.
 
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I'm sure we'll get into it when the time comes...but I'll just add that he was one of the best Blues in that 1996 playoffs that ended on one of the most famous goals in history...that Blues team was a grab bag of old meat bags and also a young, unripened Chris Pronger in his first playoff...

It's not a "playoff run" per se because he only lasted two rounds...but if it was, he would have three really, really plus playoff performances in a ten year span...

Calgary as a franchise was underwhelming after 1989 as well... ;)
 
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quoipourquoi said:
Can’t say I understand the Keith but not Kane crowd. Kane’s actually been elected the best player at his position more often - and probably would have added a 4th designation had he not gotten injured while leading the NHL in scoring in 2014-15. He even ascended to the heights of league MVP, taking it in a landslide. Conn Smythe was on the weaker side, but he was the leading playoff scorer in 2015 and had 28 points in 2010, so how much of a lead does Keith generate from the playoffs to off-set how much better Kane has been in the regular season since Keith’s last Norris in 2013-14?
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I'm going as far as saying I don't understand the Keith & Kane but not Toews crowd.The three were roughly equal participants to the mini-dynasty, an "equality" reminiscient of a lesser version of the great NYI trio.

I did rank Toews on my list (expecting to get murdered for it), even if that meant pushing him over many other centers which are better "on paper".Toews found a way to create a winning atmosphere in Chicago and is surely a Top 10 leader of all-time, especially since his leadership started very early (not just a "default captaincy", but actual leadership which was apparent even before his NHL career).I 'd be very interested to see Quenneville rank them, and I'd bet on Toews coming on top.

I also ranked Kane and Keith.
 
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MXD said:
53 years ago, Two of the Ten best hockey players of all time were born. [posted Oct. 5]
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October 5 might be the champion birthday, but Frank Nighbor's birthday gives it some close competition.;)
quoipourquoi said:
Can’t say I understand the Keith but not Kane crowd.
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It's understandable if you're exercising a little mid-career caution- and awaiting further developments before committing. I took the plunge, but his presence in the bottom-quarter of my list of 120 doesn't look out of place.

Picture an image in your mind- most important Forward on a 3-or-more-time-Stanley-Cup winning team. You have Patrick Kane- and a bunch of other people who are on about everybody's list.

[New Jersey Devils are an interesting case. Elias wasn't around for all three Cups. Neither was Bobby Holik nor Petr Sykora. You know who was? Sergei Brylin. Man, he looks like a possible candidate for an honorary Ringo Starr "right-place-at-the-right-time" serendipity award- although that's probably being a little too harsh... to Mr. Starkey.]
 
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ChiTownPhilly said:
October 6 might be the champion birthday, but Frank Nighbor's birthday gives it some close competition.;)It's understandable if you're exercising a little mid-career caution- and awaiting further developments before committing. I took the plunge, but his presence in the bottom-quarter of my list of 120 doesn't look out of place.

Picture an image in your mind- most important Forward on a 3-or-more-time-Stanley-Cup winning team. You have Patrick Kane- and a bunch of other people who are on about everybody's list.

[New Jersey Devils are an interesting case. Elias wasn't around for all three Cups. Neither was Bobby Holik nor Petr Sykora. You know who was? Sergei Brylin. Man, he looks like a possible candidate for an honorary Ringo Starr "right-place-at-the-right-time" serendipity award- although that's probably being a little too harsh... to Mr. Starkey.]
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Pretty sure I posted that on Oct. 5th though!
 
BenchBrawl said:
I'm going as far as saying I don't understand the Keith & Kane but not Toews crowd.The three were roughly equal participants to the mini-dynasty, an "equality" reminiscient of a lesser version of the great NYI trio.

I did rank Toews on my list (expecting to get murdered for it), even if that meant pushing him over many other centers which are better "on paper".Toews found a way to create a winning atmosphere in Chicago and is surely a Top 10 leader of all-time, especially since his leadership started very early (not just a "default captaincy", but actual leadership which was apparent even before his NHL career).I 'd be very interested to see Quenneville rank them, and I'd bet on Toews coming on top.

I also ranked Kane and Keith.
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For playoffs? Absolutely. In fact if you want to argue Toews as #1 i wouldn't disagree - i might do so myself. His importance to those championships can easily be seen as the biggest of the 3.

but Kane's fantastic season where he swept the awards is a distinctive advantage over Toews. As are Keith's 2 Norris. And - unlike the other 2 - Toews has actually already somewhat 'declined' lately, where instead of spiking in the regular season, he's disappointed, so the gap there has widened some more even.

So I think his regular season is what keeps him behind the other 2.
 
MXD said:
Pretty sure I posted that on Oct. 5th though!
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Nice catch. Straightened it out. Thanks.

For sheer quantity on birthday, let's try January 22. We have (in alphabetical order): Mike Bossy, Bill Durnan, Elmer Lach, Serge Savard, and J.C. Tremblay.

Now that I think about it, that's pretty close to a working qualitative order, as well.
 
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ChiTownPhilly said:
... Bill Durnan, Elmer Lach... that's pretty close to a working qualitative order,...
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Close, agreed.

Not far off. Though if you discount the two weakest war years '44 and '45 at all, then Durnan comes up well short of Lach.

(I have both in my top 100 but there's a 21 slot gap between them.)
 
Johnny Engine said:
Most lists of any number will be heavy on Habs, but a top-5 list could conceivably have no Habs at all (I have Beliveau in my top 5, there's a list for this project that has both Beliveau and Harvey, but if you went Gretzky-Orr-Howe-Lemieux and one of Hull or Hasek I wouldn't bat an eye).
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Yeah- that feels right. a "Magificent Seven" that didn't contain at least one Canadien would look... well-- a little different. It's possible, I suppose, that Nighbor cultists or recency fetishists might put Frank, or Sidney Crosby in that range. (?)
Johnny Engine said:
Most top-100s and top-120s would contain a roughly even number of Leafs and Red Wings, but a top 50 would include at least 8 long-time Red Wings, and 2 or 3 Leafs, or possibly none at all if you don't count Kelly and Sawchuk.
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Six Detroiters in the top-50 for me. Counting Red Kelly- NOT counting Viacheslav Fetisov.
Johnny Engine said:
120 seems like a good number to maximize the number of Blackhawks you include.
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Yup- five of my twelve are in the bottom third (of 120).
 
Keith, Toews, and Kane: I have all three.

Red Wings: I have 11 in 120. Plus Hasek, Fetisov, Coffey, Hull, Chelios, Robitaille, Larionov, M. Howe, and Modano.
 
Sentinel said:
Red Wings: I have 11 in 120.
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Ooh ooh- let me guess:
[Reverse alphabetically, just to be different]- Zetterberg, Yzerman, Ullman, Sawchuk, Lindsay, Lidström, Kelly, Howe, Фёдоров, Дацю́к, Abel.

All these names seem defensible. [And, if I'm right, you named two Things that I didn't, AND I named one Thing that you didn't.]
 
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VanIslander said:
You'd need over 20 dmen in your top 80 for that, eh? The last combined position HOH project had 17 dmen in the top 70. That was about right.

The ATD lists waaaaay overrepresent dmen early in the draft. Hopefully we don't replicate that here, especially with so many star forwards to honor.

So, unless you think there aren't 20 greater dmen in hockey history, Mark wouldn't be listed so high.

Heck I have MacInnis just inside the top80 and Stevens just outside of it.
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It has nothing to do with the ATD game, it has to do with him being such a fantastic defenseman in the NHL and winger in the WHA.
 
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ChiTownPhilly said:
Zetterberg, Yzerman, Ullman, Sawchuk, Lindsay, Lidström, Kelly, Howe, Federov, Datsyuk, Abel.

All these names seem defensible. [And, if I'm right, you named two Things that I didn't, AND I named one Thing that you didn't.]
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Here's hoping Black Jack Stewart or Syd Howe got some love.

(Fedorov. FedORov. Two 'o's. Please guys.)
 
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VanIslander said:
You'd need over 20 dmen in your top 80 for that, eh? The last combined position HOH project had 17 dmen in the top 70. That was about right.

The ATD lists waaaaay overrepresent dmen early in the draft. Hopefully we don't replicate that here, especially with so many star forwards to honor.
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And some of us are re-thinking that perspective. I have 34 Defensemen in my 120. You think that's inordinately high? Well, seventieslord has 37. How many multiple-Stanley-Cup winners have we seen where the most important skater for the winning team has been the Stud Defenseman? Chicago (Keith), Los Angeles (Doughty), Detroit (Lidström), New Jersey (Stevens). Hey, if you want to take it back far enough into our childhood we could even make a case for Denis Potvin for the Islanders, or Big Bird there in Montréal. Then there's that guy from Parry Sound.

No apologies needed for a robust number of Defensemen under consideration here.

[Oh- and sorry about the misstep for Sergei. I applied edits, with an eye towards not taking any chances.]
 
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