Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

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ImporterExporter

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What made Naslund better than Lidstrom? Award voting, particularly the Hart? I don't think so Q, sorry sir. Dmen have long been left out in the cold in terms of getting proper recognition there. It isn't limited to Lidstrom.

Naslund was an uber soft guy who disappeared in the biggest moments time and time again. He score a lot of points a handful of times. I don't think that makes him better than Lidstrom, in skill or peak value. Just where I'm at.
 
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MXD

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Posts like that are why my cellphone has gone through two OtterBox cases this year.


Also, in terms of peak value, Markus Naslund was better than Nicklas Lidstrom for, like, three-straight years. The only reason I mentioned Naslund, a player with three-consecutive top-5 Hart finishes to Lidstrom’s once-in-a-career and not Roman Cechmanek is because Cechmanek isn’t from Sweden.

Positionnal bias...
 

VanIslander

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In Pronger's Hart-winning season, in 7 PO games he had 32 PIM. In Lidstrom's Conn Smythe-winning playoffs, in 23 PO games he had 2 PIM. Which one was more beneficial to their team?
PIMs in itself is not an indicator of a liability. The sort of behavior that results in penalties can be a benefit. Chelios and Stevens are top-3 in career playoff PIMs for defensemen with 400+ each and I don't discount their effectiveness at all based on penalty totals; again, it's a marker of their style of play that is very effective.

Pronger likewise was effective with his physical play that at times crossed the line, often getting away with it, and throwing the opposition off their game. His nasty, dirty play and stickwork has a time and a place (just like with Cleghorn). Now, if Prongs sometimes made bad decisions about when to skirt the rulebook, that is another matter.

Lidstrom's relatively Lady Byng style is no less effective, just different. It's not better, at least not based on PIM stats for defensemen!
 

The Macho King

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Pronger scored 7 points in 7 games and half of those penalties came in the last 30 seconds of a 4-2 game making them completely inconsequential, so... Pronger.
So then he took 16 minutes in penalties in the other 6 games? And this is somehow a defense of him? That's leaving your team shorthanded 8 times. That's a lot.
 
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The Macho King

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And, you know, actual GA numbers. And shot blocking. And his outlet pass. And a string of success on a variety of teams. And a Hart. And a Pearson nomination.
I don't see how him being a mercenary should be to his credit because Lidstrom stayed on the same team his whole career.
 

quoipourquoi

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What made Naslund better than Lidstrom? Award voting, particularly the Hart? I don't think so Q, sorry sir. Dmen have long been left out in the cold in terms of getting proper recognition there. It isn't limited to Lidstrom.

As always, I’ll ask: how many defensemen should have been nominated for either the Hart or Pearson/Lindsay since 1990? I want to know where the injustice is.

I’ll spot you 1995 Coffey (the leading Western Conference player in the 1995 split league), 2000 Pronger (he won), 2008 Lidstrom (4th), 2016 Karlsson (missed the playoffs), and 2017 Burns (nominated for the Lindsay).

We haven’t had a lot of defensemen in Hart consideration between Bourque and Karlsson because it hasn’t been warranted all that much. And that’s where we circle back to people putting a Lidstrom over a Jagr because it’s easier to win an award over Scott Niedermayer and Rob Blake than Joe Sakic and Teemu Selanne.
 

bobholly39

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There is nothing generalized about saying players like Jagr and Ovechkin are one way superstars. As I've aged and learned to appreciate the nuances of hockey more, I have gravitated towards ranking players who show a complete game a bit higher than those who largely ignored the responsibilities of the other half of ice. So if two players are very close, I'll usually go with the complete package.

Ovechkin outside of 1 full playoff run and another half run has nothing to note in the postseason. And let's not play the "team quality card". Ovechkin has been on 3 or 4 (IIRC) IIRC President trophy winning rosters. How much individual and team success did Jagr have when 66 wasn't around? As I've said, he had a series here or game there, but largely never put together a career defining run in April/May/June. Now with Jagr you can at least point to the fact that by the late 90's the Pens were starting to become pretty depleted.

Also, post Orr, defensemen have been at a severe disadvantage for Hart votes. Gretzky and Lemieux and the scoring boom that came with them made sure of that. So citing Lidstrom's lack of Hart wins/finalist nods doesn't do much for me. How many did Bourque win? Potvin?

Lidstrom's quality of length on defense is only matched (surpassed) by Bourque IMO and he's a pretty widely regarded top 10-12 player ever who doesn't even sniff Lidstrom in the postseason. I have Ray over Lidstrom because the quality at D was indeed better and he did manage to have the longest stretch of great to elite play of any Dman, ever IMO, certainly in the regular season.

People can't stand on the "Lidstrom played on great teams" with a straight face because most other elite Dmen all time also had that benefit for parts, if not the majority of their careers.

Yeah, some of the guys that have been brought up may have peaked a bit higher than Nick but most of them don't come close to producing the elite longevity that Lidstrom did, who managed to do it both in regular and postseason scenarios.

Lidstrom was an elite, 2 way shutdown Dman, for a long, long time. The only thing he lacked was the bashing physicality and I think that hurts him among certain hockey people which is sad to me and it ****s on what he accomplished as a player. IMHO.

I think i took exception with the wording of your first post. "There is just no way" seems like an absolute statement. If I had to guess i'd say Jagr is ranked above Lidstrom on more lists then the other way around - and Ovechkin could very well be as well. So it's not like there is no argument - if anything you saying Lidstrom > Jagr/Ovi seems to be the slightly less popular position. I just hope people will be more open minded about things like this that are "close" vs making what i took to be a unilateral statement that was "one way players should be below a 2-way player".

Yes Ovi and Jagr are more one-way players - but they absolutely EXCEL at that 'one way' of theirs, so it shouldn't be discounted too quickly. I've often said Jagr might have the best offense outside of Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe - and this could be for either of peak/prime/career possibly - so the bar is quite high. OV maybe a bit less so - but his goal-scoring is staggering. Both have pretty complete resumes too (tons of awards - and maybe not many playoff heroics, but often strong playoff performers/consistently contributing offense, which is their role).
 

quoipourquoi

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I don't see how him being a mercenary should be to his credit because Lidstrom stayed on the same team his whole career.

Because we know that he can be a standout in a variety of environments (that weren’t necessarily the best places to generate the magic number for Norris votes: 60 points), whereas all we know regarding Nicklas Lidstrom is that on Sweden, he might lose some accolades to Kenny Jonsson, and that if you pair him with the wrong partner, 2003-04 happens. Detroit still won a President’s Trophy in that off-year, which tells you just how loaded they were.

There’s certainly a benefit to seeing a player do the same things in multiple systems. Pronger is more tested. That’s a plus.
 

Michael Farkas

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And, you know, actual GA numbers. And shot blocking. And his outlet pass. And a string of success on a variety of teams. And a Hart. And a Pearson nomination.

I'd be interested to take a deeper look at GA numbers...I do know that Lidstrom was top-3 in plus/minus five times to Pronger's two...and on the whole, I'm pretty sure that Lidstrom had weaker partners...but I haven't written all of them down either...

Lidstrom was a better outlet passer. You got him on shot blocking probably, particularly if stick deflections don't count...

Fair points on the rest...though Pronger's Hart was a gift...doesn't mean it didn't happen, but Jagr playing two more games that year wins it...and we all know second place is meaningless this week ;)

I don't know, I guess before we go down this road...how far apart are Lidstrom and Pronger for you...?
 

The Macho King

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As always, I’ll ask: how many defensemen should have been nominated for either the Hart or Pearson/Lindsay since 1990? I want to know where the injustice is.

I’ll spot you 1995 Coffey (the leading Western Conference player in the 1995 split league), 2000 Pronger (he won), 2008 Lidstrom (4th), 2016 Karlsson (missed the playoffs), and 2017 Burns (nominated for the Lindsay).

We haven’t had a lot of defensemen in Hart consideration between Bourque and Karlsson because it hasn’t been warranted all that much. And that’s where we circle back to people putting a Lidstrom over a Jagr because it’s easier to win an award over Scott Niedermayer and Rob Blake than Joe Sakic and Teemu Selanne.
What's ignored here is how *awful* a season 99-00 was for forwards. Jagr won the Art Ross with fewer than 100 points while missing a quarter of the season (which is the first time that has happened since expansion not counting the lockout). Bure missed significant time as well. Mark Recchi was third with 91 points. It was a *very* poor year for forward production overall, but especially at the top of the league.

This is also the first year in ages Dominik Hasek didn't win the Vezina. Belfour, Hasek, and Theodore led the league with .919 save percentages, but after almost half a decade of topping .930, this was a pretty significant decrease (and additionally Hasek only played 35 games). So the Hart wasn't going to go to a goaltender.

So who's left? Lidstrom that season had 20 goals and 73 points, while Pronger had 14 goals and 62 points (with an absurd +/- on the President's Trophy winning team). Knowing what we know about these players, I would guess a bit of the credit Pronger got was "old-time hockey" related while Lidstrom's game was not nearly as flashy. But still, Pronger wins the Hart.

It's also probably the weakest Hart win of all-time, and required an absurd confluence of events to come about.
 

BenchBrawl

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Is it sure that Lidstrom is a better outlet passer than Pronger? Hmm... Pronger had a heck of a great first pass.I'd be tempted to give that one to Pronger.
 

overg

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I mean when did this Lidstrom over Jagr business start? Yeah, Jagr was one of the more balanced scorers - as much a threat as a goal scorer as his competition on RW (Bure and Selanne) while also having incredible puck possession and creativity, but actor Scott Wolf from “Party of Five” announced Lidstrom’s name instead of Lubomir Visnovsky’s, so...

Alternate question. When did this Jagr over Lidstrom business start? Because I remember all sorts of "best European of all time" polls in the late 2000's, with the options always being Lidstrom-Hasek-Jagr. All three always had their supporters, but by my recollection, Jagr typically got the least support. A huge factor being his phoning it in during the Washington years and his departure for Russia. Basically, Jagr had a reputation for pouting and/or chasing the money.

It was only after Jagr came back, and showed his love for the game by playing until he was 132 years old, that this narrative went away (or at least got quieter). Esteem for Jagr started to climb again, and the Lidstrom-Hasek-Jagr debate became much more balanced.

Aside from Jagr's reputation rebounding, recent opinions on Lidstrom and Hasek have also taken some hits. For Lidstrom, the fact that Karrlson has shown that a true "offensive defenseman" is still viable in the NHL put some damper on Lidstrom's scoring prowess (which was often held as the high end of what was possible in the dead puck era). And Hasek's reputation has taken some beating with respect to his missed games/injury history, as well as a re-evaluation of Roy's 80's numbers. So if anything, I'd say Jagr's relative reputation compared to Hasek and Lidstrom is at an all time high right now.

I suspect there will be some ebb and flow with respect to all three players for some time. We're still less than a decade out from all three retiring, so their full historical context is still be written. But to answer your original question, I'd say the talks of Lidstrom being better than Jagr probably first became prominent sometime around 2008. That was the year Lidstrom won his 6th Norris (finishing top 2 in voting 9 of the previous 10 seasons) and captained the Wings to his 4th Stanley Cup. It was also the year Jagr went to Russia, and probably represented the lowest Jagr's reputation had been since he started winning scoring titles in the mid-90's.

It wasn't until 2014 or 2015 (when Jagr had been back in the NHL for a few years and was starting to show some all-time longevity) that Jagr's reputation started making a comeback. At least, that's been my impression of HF boards' general attitudes toward the three players over the last 15 years or so. Individual opinions have of course always varied, and it's certainly possible others have had a different take on the "general consensus."


*last second edit. Before hitting send, I figured I should take a look at the 2008 and 2009 rankings the HoH did, to see if my memory was just talking out of its ass. In 2008, Hasek = 15th, Jagr = 25th, Lidstrom = 26th. In 2009, Hasek = 12, Lidstrom = 17th, Jagr = 25th. So my memory's ass was pretty close with respect to the timing of when Lidstrom > Jagr. At least per HoH board voting.
 

Michael Farkas

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I don't see how him being a mercenary should be to his credit because Lidstrom stayed on the same team his whole career.

In fairness, he was traded to St. Louis, traded to Edmonton, traded to Anaheim and traded to Philadelphia...

Netting a star power forward, a potential top pairing prospect d-man, a potential top-six forward (plus two 1sts and 2nd), a top-six forward (plus three first round picks)...

And he dragged Dwayne Roloson, Jean-Sebastian Giguere and Michael Leighton to the Stanley Cup Finals in a span of four years...not exactly a murder's row of talent there...
 
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The Macho King

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In fairness, he was traded to St. Louis, traded to Edmonton, traded to Anaheim and traded to Philadelphia...

Netting a star power forward, a potential top pairing prospect d-man, a potential top-six forward (plus two 1sts and 2nd), a top-six forward (plus three first round picks)...

And he dragged Dwayne Roloson, Jean-Sebastian Giguere and Michael Leighton to the Stanley Cup Finals in a span of four years...not exactly a murder's row of talent there...
Roloson was stellar those playoffs. Michelin man was pretty damn good (and no one on that Ducks team "dragged" anyone).
 

quoipourquoi

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So then he took 16 minutes in penalties in the other 6 games? And this is somehow a defense of him? That's leaving your team shorthanded 8 times. That's a lot.

No, because 6 of the other minutes were matching minors. We’re down to that 32 PIM being about 1/3rd as impactful now. And he still scored 7 points that series.

I mean, can anyone point to a single penalty of Pronger’s in that series as damaging as Lidstrom’s double-minor high stick in Game 3 of the 1999 Western Conference Semifinals, or are we just doing a hypothetical here to try to make Pronger look like the reason the Blues were upset?
 

VanIslander

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I checked to see since Bourque how many top-10 in pp goal seasons Pronger and Lidstrom had... NONE.

Souray, Tarnstrom, Green, Ekman-Larsson, Markov once and...

Weber three times!
 

quoipourquoi

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I'd be interested to take a deeper look at GA numbers...I do know that Lidstrom was top-3 in plus/minus five times to Pronger's two...and on the whole, I'm pretty sure that Lidstrom had weaker partners...but I haven't written all of them down either...

Plus-minus tells two stories when you only want half. Look at 2007-08: Lidstrom is +40 to Pronger’s -1. But Lidstrom had a 84:44 ratio of GF:GA while Pronger was working with 40:41.

Not saying Pronger was better that year, but it’s a standout example.
 

Michael Farkas

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Roloson was stellar those playoffs. Michelin man was pretty damn good (and no one on that Ducks team "dragged" anyone).

Roloson was a journeyman, and sure, he may have gotten hot...that happens...but he wasn't a reliable goaltender on the whole, nor was that team particularly good (as they failed to make the playoffs each of the next thousand years)...moreover, even with Conklin giving a game away and a career backup in Jussi Markkanen coming in, they still went 7.

Giguere was a meh goaltender with a poor glove, poor blocker, shoddy rebound control...a stop, drop and hope goaltender that needed a strong defense to handle his voluptuous rebounds because he couldn't feel pucks and he was lacking the strength and athleticism to combat his over-stuffed Oreo stylings...

Goaltending was the weak point of that team...
 
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