Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

[ImporterExporter]

I really think Lidstrom is one of the more underrated PPQB's of all time. Obviously some folks had a harder point shot, but Nick's was so damn accurate and his vision and ability to pick the proper pace depending on opponents was quite evident. He was like a metronome. Not to mention his consistency is about as good as you'll see among the higher end Dmen all time. IIRC his production above the league average over his career is elite and we're talking about 14-15 year stretch. And he played a lot on the PK as well for Detroit.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Defensemen have a higher pp % than forwards.

MacInnis, Leetch, Pronger have 50+ % to no surprise given their legendary shots. Orr has a low pp% relative to other dmen, as one would expect, given he is renowned more for counterattacking rushes than set-up plays from the point.

I am a bit surprised at how high Lidstrom's % is and how low Robinson's is.

Of course, the Wings had great pps so it should be no surprise it's Nik's offensive bread and butter.

And Robinson is like H.Richard: on a deeply-talented dynasty team, pp time gets divided up and I assume these two had less opportunities.

Or because of his huge points per game average compared to all other defensemen.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Not that we are betting or anything, but I bet this is Russell Bowie.

If it's Russell Bowie, and the distribution of the rankings suggests that it may very well be, I hope he gets included to make sure all eras are covered in the list.

I assume Bowie is the highest ranked player of his era, which might be wrong.

Covering the entirety of history is important.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Defensemen have a higher pp % than forwards.

MacInnis, Leetch, Pronger have 50+ % to no surprise given their legendary shots. Orr has a low pp% relative to other dmen, as one would expect, given he is renowned more for counterattacking rushes than set-up plays from the point.

I am a bit surprised at how high Lidstrom's % is and how low Robinson's is.

Of course, the Wings had great pps so it should be no surprise it's Nik's offensive bread and butter.

And Robinson is like H.Richard: on a deeply-talented dynasty team, pp time gets divided up and I assume these two had less opportunities.

Guy Lapointe,plus Bowman's Montreal PP was like Blake' s structured to account defensively for the first post PP shift.

 

[VanIslander]

I really think Lidstrom is one of the more underrated PPQB's of all time. Obviously some folks had a harder point shot, but Nick's was so damn accurate and his vision and ability to pick the proper pace depending on opponents was quite evident. He was like a metronome...

He also played with some of the most prolific powerplay goal scoring forwards ever like Shanahan and Yzerman.

 

[Canadiens1958]

If it's Russell Bowie, and the distribution of the rankings suggests that it may very well be, I hope he gets included to make sure all eras are covered in the list.

I assume Bowie is the highest ranked player of his era, which might be wrong.

Covering the entirety of history is important.

Others on the list overlap Bowie.

 

[VanIslander]

We live in a world where the original rules and majority are set aside in favor of a vocal few who change things to fit their wishes.

I am so against the 'extend to the wishes of the 13'. Why the heck put in 10+ hours agonizing over list making if it makes no difference if you are in the clear majority?

 

[ImporterExporter]

He also played with some of the most prolific powerplay goal scoring forwards ever like Shanahan and Yzerman.

As have others.

Also, Yzerman's career was over in 06 and Shanahan had moved on. Lidstrom was still winning Norris trophies and producing great results well after.

I've long said Lidstrom's career value hasn't peaked. He'll age well, so long as people put aside any national biases. He was a boring superstar. And he did it for a LONG time.

 

[VanIslander]

Longevity of high level play ought to be a factor in early rounds where every voting option has awesome peaks.

For example, Trottier's first 7 seasons were top level, but his subsequent 11 seasons were eh, nothing significant in early round considerations.

Of course, people cut Orr all slack because of injury. But that is because he was - by definition - exceptional.

So, I'd consider Lidstrom over Lafleur if I could be shown that Lidstrom maintained a top level of play beyond a 6- or 7-year peak (something Guy did not do).

 

[BenchBrawl]

So, I'd consider Lidstrom over Lafleur if I could be shown that Lidstrom maintained a top level of play beyond a 6- or 7-year peak (something Guy did not do).

Guy Lafleur was a much better player than Lidstrom at their peak though.

 

[VanIslander]

Guy Lafleur was a much better player than Lidstrom at their peak though.

Indeed. That's why Lidstrom isn't even in my top 25. He lacks the otherworldly peaks of even an Esposito, Taylor or Geoffrion.

But I am open to being convinced. My eye test had me thinking Emperor Nik has no platinum clothes, but I wonder if he's just sublime.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Indeed. That's why Lidstrom isn't even in my top 25. He lacks the otherworldly peaks of even an Esposito, Taylor or Geoffrion.

Same.

 

[Thenameless]

Same.

Same.

 

[BenchBrawl]

But I am open to being convinced. My eye test had me thinking Emperor Nik has no platinum clothes, but I wonder if he's just sublime.

Good analogy.Nicklas Lidstrom was a great star defenseman and a great #1D on multiple cup winners, so this is not to diminish his status, but he never achieved the Denis Potvin or Ray Bourque level of play.This is why I had both over him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Lidstrom also was a different style. And didn't have a chance to play against some of the donkey teams that Potvin and Bourque could go against in the hyper-expansion years. Lidstrom came in at the end of the firewagon days, adapted into the dead puck era and into the "new NHL"...and performed terrifically in all of them.

Lidstrom also had to babysit average goaltending from Chris Osgood much of the time...Potvin didn't have to deal with that, Bourque had up and down goalie quality...Bourque also crossed an era "the 80's way" to the dead puck era...

I went cold on Lidstrom for a while, but I'm back on his side...all of three of these guys are in my top 15...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Lidstrom also was a different style. And didn't have a chance to play against some of the donkey teams that Potvin and Bourque could go against in the hyper-expansion years. Lidstrom came in at the end of the firewagon days, adapted into the dead puck era and into the "new NHL"...and performed terrifically in all of them.

Lidstrom also had to babysit average goaltending from Chris Osgood much of the time...Potvin didn't have to deal with that, Bourque had up and down goalie quality...Bourque also crossed an era "the 80's way" to the dead puck era...

I went cold on Lidstrom for a while, but I'm back on his side...all of three of these guys are in my top 15...

Check Billy Smith's record before Potvin. Chico Resch was extreme depth in Montreal.

Ray Bourque was supporting goalie of the month/season types.

Osgood was around for years. Provided certainty crucial to Lidstrom's game.

 

[VanIslander]

Check Billy Smith's record before Potvin. Chico Resch was extreme depth in Montreal.

Ray Bourque was supporting goalie of the month/season types.

Osgood was around for years. Provided certainty crucial to Lidstrom's game.

How many absurdities can one identify here? (I'd bet the answer is between 1 and 4.)

I'd make an accusation of trolling but maybe sincerity is in play.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'm sure this was supposed to mean something. On second thought, no, I am not sure.

Tarasov was political Arkady Chernyshev was the coaching brains and glue.

Eventually Tarasov was thrown under the bus.

 

[Sadekuuro]

I am a bit surprised at how high Lidstrom's % is and how low Robinson's is.

First thing that comes to mind re: Lidstrom is that he was very much a defense-first player. The power play allowed him to deploy his offensive skills without much risk defensively, whereas he was fairly conservative at even strength e.g. rarely pinched, especially compared to most other high scoring defensemen.

Robinson's is impressively low for sure, wonder how the rest of the big three look.

 

[Canadiens1958]

How many absurdities can one identify here? (I'd bet the answer is between 1 and 4.)

I'd make an accusation of trolling but maybe sincerity is in play.

Billy Smith LA and early Islanders did not impress. Resch was a Canadiens holdover from the sponsorship era, losing NCAA record, IHLer.

Bourque in the 1980s alone hadover 300 RS games with goalies like Craig, Baron, Moffat, Keans, Riggin, Daskalakis.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's sincere, because he's always had this opinion and he's backed it in the past.

This is one thing that C1958 and I will have to probably agree to disagree on. Billy Smith was a rookie on an expansion team his first season, a near impossible situation for a goalie. He improved the next year with Potvin in the fold, but Potvin was also one of the team's worst minuses and highest PIM men...while Potvin won the Calder, fine, I don't necessarily suggest he's all that responsible for Smith shaving a whole goal off of his abacus...

Osgood just doesn't do it for me despite the win totals...didn't find him to be reliable, he was made possible by Lidstrom's greatness in my opinion.

Osgood also had an easier schedule than many 90's goalies because he was probably not seen as a value add like others...Osgood only pressed into 40 games with no days rest as a Red Wing...just 21-14-1, (40 GP - 0.538 pts%) 2.58 GAA...roughly 0.10 GAA less on 1 or 2 days rest, 154-74-36 record (0.626 pts%)

Generally less reliable goaltenders behind Lidstrom, handled no rest situations better (min. 15 GP)...

Manny Lagace - 12-3-2, 2.21 GAA
Jimmy Howard - 21-9-4, 2.28 GAA

Playoffs, 3 main goalies played behind Lidstrom...all three won Cups, all three with similar averaging stats...

Vernon - 30-12 2.08, .907
Hasek - 28-17 1.91, .919
Osgood - 67-37 2.02, .918

Iffy playoff tender in Hasek, rhythm, high-up, low-down, playoff tender in Vernon, no thrills goaltender in Osgood...all results are similar, common thread is Lidstrom (and company).

 

[VanIslander]

C"mon.

No defense of your 'Osgood made Lidstrom good' claim?

 

[VanIslander]

Billy Smith LA and early Islanders did not impress.

Smith played only 5 friggin' regular season games in LA before NYI traded for him.

Smith was the NHL all-star game MVP TWO seasons before his first Stanley Cup. Then, the following year, he led the NHL in playoff save percentage and playoff goals against. This is all BEFORE the cup dynasty years.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Lidstrom lost points because he was A, boring, B, European, C, not physical.

But the guy was a 7 time Norris winner (yeah the last one should have been Chara or Weber) with 9 other top 6 finishes over 16 consecutive seasons. Played an elite levels in all 3 phases. He did not have a single weakness in his game other the the "things" I mentioned above. Great in the postseason. Showed well for Sweden over the years. He may be slightly behind somebody like Potvin in terms of his peak, but his longevity blows him and others away. And i think it's ludicrous to penalize him in some way for playing on great teams when Potvin or Red Kelly had a dynasty around them for parts of their career. And Lidstrom was the best player on Detroit every year or less from around 2000 onward.

I have no idea how people have him in the 20's. Guess we'll save the heavy lifting for next week and beyond!

 

[Michael Farkas]

"The perfect human" would feature prominently in an ATD bio me thinks...