Top 10 Best NHL Players of All Time

[SillyRabbit]

Regardless of where you place them, having Ovechkin over Crosby or Lidstrom over Bourque just doesn't make sense to me unless you're biased. The arguments just aren't there.

As for within those four, I have them as Crosby, Bourque, Ovechkin, Lidstrom.

Also noticing a lot of people leaving goalies off their list completely, feels like you at least have to have Hasek, but Roy also has a strong argument to be top 10 as well.

Feels like Hull, Harvey and especially Richard and Shore have really fallen out of favor (in the very small sample size of this thread).

McDavid forcing his way into the top 10 has really made this list really difficult.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I've been doing tons of reading on the era and watched a dozen games this past year. Bobby Hull is routinely the best player on the ice and always praised as the best player from the game in newspaper reports. Early 60s/late 60s/early 70s. Game after game. A bonafide megastar.

Even in something like the Cup final loss in 1971 he regularly looks and is praised as the best player on the ice.

Pick a random Blackhawks game from the 60s and good chance Hull is the best player. He pops off the screen and just looks like a tremendous hockey player. His stock has risen for me this past year. The footage and contemporary reports are pretty clear.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I can make a claim for Lidstrom over Bourque because of how much better I find Lidstrom defensively. Not saying I'd make it, but dismissing anything around that is silly...

I didn't have a goalie in my last top 15. Having really dug in on the goalie project recently, I think there's a decent claim that no goalies belong top 20. People feel compelled, but...

 

[Moose Head]

I considered NHL play only

Forwards
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Beliveau
Crosby
Hull
Ovechkin
McDavid
Richard
Jagr

Dmen
Orr
Harvey
Bourque
Lidstrom
Potvin

Goalies
Plante
Hasek
Hall
Roy
Dryden

 

[authentic]

Mario Lemieux (1993)
Dominik Hašek (1998)
Wayne Gretzky (1984)
Sergei Fedorov (1994)
Peter Forsberg (2003)
Jaromír Jágr (1999)
Sidney Crosby (2011)
Eric Lindros (1995)
Brett Hull (1991)
Sergei Makarov (1989 [sic])

I’m assuming you forgot Bobby Orr… 1970?

 

[authentic]

I've been doing tons of reading on the era and watched a dozen games this past year. Bobby Hull is routinely the best player on the ice and always praised as the best player from the game in newspaper reports. Early 60s/late 60s/early 70s. Game after game. A bonafide megastar.

Even in something like the Cup final loss in 1971 he regularly looks and is praised as the best player on the ice.

Pick a random Blackhawks game from the 60s and good chance Hull is the best player. He pops off the screen and just looks like a tremendous hockey player. His stock has risen for me this past year. The footage and contemporary reports are pretty clear.

Bobby Hull I’ve been thinking lately is essentially as good as Crosby, Ovechkin or Jagr and if you had him ahead of all those players I wouldn’t think it’s so crazy. Actually I don’t even think for certain that Howe was a much better player given the difference in the early 50s NHL to the 1960s.

 

[Albatros]

I’m assuming you forgot Bobby Orr… 1970?

The league was garbage in the 1970s, already as of 1970 most teams were recent expansion franchises with a ragtag selection of players assembled largely from the AHL and the Canadian minor leagues. It wasn't until the 1980s that the league slowly started stabilizing after the NHL-WHA merger, aided by the emerging influx of non-Canadian players. Sure there were exceptionally talented players also in the 1970s, but I don't think absolute all-time best level of performance was even possible in that environment. Even in the 1980s it took Gretzky to get there.

 

[authentic]

1. Orr
2. Gretzky
3. Lemieux
4. McDavid
5. Howe
6. Crosby
7. Ovechkin
8. Jagr
9. Hull
10. Malkin

This is a peak/prime list for me, players at their absolute best which I find more fun to do or else you end up with largely the same or extremely similar lists, and the order of 4-10 can differ from day to day

Forsberg, Bourque and Lindros contend for that #10 spot, actually come to think of it I would probably take Potvin and Pronger over Bourque at their best and then I would prefer Harvey and possibly even Robinson over Lidstrom. A player like MacKinnon today is also building a case to be part of this consideration, hopefully he can improve upon last season.

Hasek and Roy for goalies but I like to rank them separately.

 

[The Panther]

I can make a claim for Lidstrom over Bourque because of how much better I find Lidstrom defensively. Not saying I'd make it, but dismissing anything around that is silly...

Lidstrom was better than Bourque defensively, but you have to consider the context of why that was. Lidstrom could pick his spots (which he did expertly), and whichever way he went, there was loads of team support. At no time when he was with Detroit did the club have below-average forwards or below-average defence. Basically, at all times he played, the club had "above-average" in both.

This in no way detracts from Lidstrom (as I said, I'm also recently starting to think he was a bit better than Bourque overall), but Bourque had a massively more important role on his team than Lidstrom did. Often Bourque had to carry the offense... and the defense.

What I'm saying is, it's "easier" to look better defensively when you don't have to carry an offensive load.

Bourque's and Lidstrom's clubs both lost the first time they went to the Cup Finals. Lidstrom's club had four legendary defencemen alone (not to mention Ramsey). When Bourque first got there, his club was playing two rookies on defence, one of whom he was partnered with, and another guy who was out of the League two years later.

 

[DitchMarner]

Gretzky
Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Harvey
Crosby
Dryden
Datsyuk
Rocket
Sawchuk

McD after his career is over if he keeps dominating and wins a cup.

Datsyuk???

What would be the argument?

Also, this may be the first list I've seen on which Dryden is basically considered the best goalie ever.

 

[DitchMarner]

Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Orr
Morenz
Shore
Richard
Jagr
Hasek
Bobby Hull

I find it hard to imagine that two players from the 30s are among the top ten greatest players of all-time, but no player who started playing later than the early 90s is. We're talking about a period of about 30 years and one in which there are generally more "good" players at a given time compared to the 1930s.

 

[JackSlater]

I've been doing tons of reading on the era and watched a dozen games this past year. Bobby Hull is routinely the best player on the ice and always praised as the best player from the game in newspaper reports. Early 60s/late 60s/early 70s. Game after game. A bonafide megastar.

Even in something like the Cup final loss in 1971 he regularly looks and is praised as the best player on the ice.

Pick a random Blackhawks game from the 60s and good chance Hull is the best player. He pops off the screen and just looks like a tremendous hockey player. His stock has risen for me this past year. The footage and contemporary reports are pretty clear.

This is true for me as well. However many years ago I became curious as to why Hull was pretty unanimously considered the best player of the 1960s and did some reading and watched what I could. Yeah Hull stands out massively when you watch.

I believe that when people look back on Hull there is some confusion between award voting and what contemporary opinion actually was. We get this in the moment but struggle to recognize it in the past. Hull is also hurt by getting injured while enjoying on the thr NHL's best ever seasons.

Lidstrom was better than Bourque defensively, but you have to consider the context of why that was. Lidstrom could pick his spots (which he did expertly), and whichever way he went, there was loads of team support. At no time when he was with Detroit did the club have below-average forwards or below-average defence. Basically, at all times he played, the club had "above-average" in both.

This in no way detracts from Lidstrom (as I said, I'm also recently starting to think he was a bit better than Bourque overall), but Bourque had a massively more important role on his team than Lidstrom did. Often Bourque had to carry the offense... and the defense.

What I'm saying is, it's "easier" to look better defensively when you don't have to carry an offensive load.

Bourque's and Lidstrom's clubs both lost the first time they went to the Cup Finals. Lidstrom's club had four legendary defencemen alone (not to mention Ramsey). When Bourque first got there, his club was playing two rookies on defence, one of whom he was partnered with, and another guy who was out of the League two years later.

This is pretty accurate. Lidstrom can be a great defensive player who was in a situation that made him look even better defensively than he was. I think of Robinson the same way. Lidstrom consistently played on teams with elite defensive centres and lots of depth on defence, plus for his best years almost always a defensive scheme from Bowman and then Babcock. Even Lewis mostly continued doing what Bowman did, just worse. On another team Lidstrom couldn't have been as conservative as he was defensively.

I have a minority opinion that Lidstrom was actually better offensively than defensively, but team situation changed how things would have normally looked.

 

[Namba 17]

The Number 5 conundrum I’ve seen Béliveau ,Hull ,Richard ,Hasek,Harvey occupy the spot on different lists but what about Lafleur and his Peak,He has the Numbers and the cups and higher scoring avg then Béliveau,Richard and Hull.


Has any other Right Wing other then the flower ever had 6 consecutive 1st team all star selections?

Mike Bossy gets no respect for the number 5 spot as well he and Lafleur could easily be a 1A 1B

The main thing to me about Lafleur that his peak was shorter than any of players I listed above, plus he didnt bring anything to his game bar offence and falled off the cliff too quickly.
He wouldve been in the next tier for me though.

 

[Hippasus]

I find it hard to imagine that two players from the 30s are among the top ten greatest players of all-time, but no player who started playing later than the early 90s is. We're talking about a period of about 30 years and one in which there are generally more "good" players at a given time compared to the 1930s.

With this list I'm largely going by context of the point in history and influence. I would like to have someone like Crosby, McDavid, or Ovechkin on it, but their careers are still in the making. I could see Crosby slotting around where I have Jagr when his career is done, McDavid probably higher, Ovechkin in the mix.

 

[Namba 17]

I still believe Beliveau is overrated. 2 Harts, 1 Art Ross, routinely eclipsed by his own teammates. I don't see how you can put him above Espo, Ovy, Crosby, Hull, Jagr, McD, and Shore, with their multiple trophies.

Out of your list only Ovy, McD and Shore won more Harts (and 2 of them by 1 only). And when you consider top-5 Hart voting finishes youll see another picture.
The same with Art Ross. 8 top-5 finished themselves would make any player top-10 contender. Then add 7 top-5 goalscoring finishes. Then add his all-time great playoff performance. Then add that he couldve been perennial Selke contender if it existed. Then add longevity.
And youll realize its very hard to find better overall player.

 

[Sentinel]

Out of your list only Ovy, McD and Shore won more Harts (and 2 of them by 1 only). And when you consider top-5 Hart voting finishes youll see another picture.
The same with Art Ross. 8 top-5 finished themselves would make any player top-10 contender. Then add 7 top-5 goalscoring finishes. Then add his all-time great playoff performance. Then add that he couldve been perennial Selke contender if it existed. Then add longevity.
And youll realize its very hard to find better overall player.

But if you go by actual WINS, he falls below all of them. "7 top-5 goalscoring finishes" is nice but Espo and Ovy have 6 and 9 goalscoring WINS. 8 top-5 point finishes is nice but Jagr had 5 points WINS.

The only things Beliveau has on all of them is his two-way play and his longevity but Jagr and Ovy seem to have elite longevity of their own and their peaks are significantly higher.

 

[Sentinel]

Bourque's and Lidstrom's clubs both lost the first time they went to the Cup Finals. Lidstrom's club had four legendary defencemen alone (not to mention Ramsey). When Bourque first got there, his club was playing two rookies on defence, one of whom he was partnered with, and another guy who was out of the League two years later.

This is some serious cherry-picking. "The first time they went to Cup finals"? How about "the first time they actually won"? Detroit had two rookies (Ward and Pushor) and three elder statesmen who retired in the next four years (Fetisov, Murphy, Rouse). Only Lidstrom and Konstantinov were in their prime. And in the next win, Lidstrom was, pretty much, the ONLY defenseman in his prime (Konstantinov's career tragically ended and he was replaced by another veteran, Jamie Macoun).

But at the end of the day, Lidstrom simply won more Norrises and was better on defense than Bourque.

 

[10Ducky10]

Datsyuk???

What would be the argument?

Also, this may be the first list I've seen on which Dryden is basically considered the best goalie ever.

Why wouldn't Dryden be considered the best?
Look up his record.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Why wouldn't Dryden be considered the best?
Look up his record.

I'd start here:

HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

Procedure In this vote, you will be presented with 8 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias You will submit eight names in a ranked order, #1 through #8, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[bobholly39]

This is some serious cherry-picking. "The first time they went to Cup finals"? How about "the first time they actually won"? Detroit had two rookies (Ward and Pushor) and three elder statesmen who retired in the next four years (Fetisov, Murphy, Rouse). Only Lidstrom and Konstantinov were in their prime. And in the next win, Lidstrom was, pretty much, the ONLY defenseman in his prime (Konstantinov's career tragically ended and he was replaced by another veteran, Jamie Macoun).

But at the end of the day, Lidstrom simply won more Norrises and was better on defense than Bourque.

Competition for Norris between Bourque's prime and Lidstrom's prime is night and day though. This is one of the most obvious cases in history where trophy counting alone is misleading.

Go ahead and rank the top 5 Bourque seasons vs the top 5 Lidstrom seasons. Or top 10 vs top 10. Or top 15 vs top 15. Or top 3 vs top 3. Actually look at the individual season itself, and decide if Bourque's very best is better than Lidstrom's best, same for #2 season, etc. Don't just count Norris finishes.

I suspect Bourque comes out ahead in almost all of those comparisons.

Also - Bourque was definitely better than Lidstrom offensively. I think it's closer on defense than offense, so not sure that's a big differentiator for Lidstrom.

I definitely have Bourque ahead of Lidstrom. I'd love to see a more in-depth analysis of their seasons though. Top 5, 10 or 15 seasons head to head, to see who ends up ahead more often. I expect it's Bourque by a lot, but I'm open to considering Lidstrom.

 

[10Ducky10]

I'd start here:

HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

Procedure In this vote, you will be presented with 8 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias You will submit eight names in a ranked order, #1 through #8, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and...

forums.hfboards.com

I would start here. He played in seven seasons and six games and the playoffs of the other season. Of those eight seasons he won six Stanley cups.
75% of the seasons he played he won the cup.
He also won 5 Vezinas, a Conn Smythe and a Calder.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I would start here. He played in seven seasons and six games and the playoffs of the other season. Of those eight seasons he won six Stanley cups.
75% of the seasons he played he won the cup.
He also won 5 Vezinas, a Conn Smythe and a Calder.

Yes, I'm aware.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don't even have Dryden in my top 3 Habs goalies

 

[Golden_Jet]

Mario Lemieux (1993)
Dominik Hašek (1998)
Wayne Gretzky (1984)
Sergei Fedorov (1994)
Peter Forsberg (2003)
Jaromír Jágr (1999)
Sidney Crosby (2011)
Eric Lindros (1995)
Brett Hull (1991)
Sergei Makarov (1989 [sic])

Don’t think I’ve seen anyone take Brett Hull over Bobby before.

I put last names for everyone i dont see the issue

Posters are insinuating it’s spelt wrong, and it is.

 

[rmartin65]

I don't even have Dryden in my top 3 Habs goalies

Roy, Plante… Vezina?