Toggle sidebar

Top 10 best forwards post lockout

  • We sincerely apologize for the extended downtime. Our hosting provider, XenForo Cloud, encountered a major issue with their backup system, which unfortunately resulted in the loss of some critical data from the past year.

    What This Means for You:

    • If you created an account after March 2024, it no longer exists. You will need to sign up again to access the forum.
    • If you registered before March 2024 but changed your email, username, or password in the past year, those changes were lost. You’ll need to update your account details manually once you're logged in.
    • Threads and posts created within the last year have been restored.

    Our team is working with Xenforo Cloud to recover data using backups, sitemaps, and other available resources. We know this is frustrating, and we deeply regret the impact on our community. We are taking steps with Xenforo Cloud to ensure this never happens again. This is work in progress. Thank you for your patience and support as we work through this.

    In the meantime, feel free to join our Discord Server
authentic said:
Leon is clearly a beast in his own right but he’s the biggest beneficiary of a regular linemate since Esposito when it comes to boosting point totals, but still elite enough in his own right that McDavid clearly benefits from him as well just as Orr did from Esposito. I think Draisaitl would still post very elite numbers without McDavid.
Click to expand...
He might, but like I said, until we see it, its easy to default to McDavid being the catalyst especially since every game they go back to putting them together because they are meh separated.

And it is not "clearly". He is producing pretty evenly low to mid 30 pt per PP/with McDavid/without McDavid. Without McDavid, he sees the easier D matchups.
 
landy said:
He might, but like I said, until we see it, its easy to default to McDavid being the catalyst especially since every game they go back to putting them together because they are meh separated.

And it is not "clearly". He is producing pretty evenly low to mid 30 pt per PP/with McDavid/without McDavid. Without McDavid, he sees the easier D matchups.
Click to expand...

I mean during their best playoff runs which are on par with Gretzky’s and Lemieux’s when adjusted to the level of defensive teams faced Draisaitl had one less point than McDavid in 2022 playing on one leg. You don’t keep up with an all-time player like that when the going gets tough if you’re not an elite player on your own. Not to mention that MacKinnon, Kucherov and others play with elite players as well and the drop off from McDavid to whatever else Leon plays with is massive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Duke74 and Hippasus
TheDawnOfANewTage said:
Let’s say no Mario, no Gretz- who else would be there from the earlier period?
Click to expand...

Jagr easily.

Anyway my list.

McDavid
Malkin
Crosby
Ovechkin
Kucherov
MacKinnon
Draisaitl
Kane
Matthews
Datsyuk

If we go by best that is at their peak, if we instead go per career Crosby+Ovi bumps the two above(still, maybe not much longer for McDavid).

(Then again I still don't know which lockout is the cutoff)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hippasus
I don't get the Stamkos mentions. He was never the best player in the world, not even the best player at his position. Never won a hart/ross/lindsay. Only has 1 100 point season. Is a really mediocre playoff player of his stature. He has no business being mentioned.
 
  • Like
Reactions: authentic
slapKing said:
I don't get the Stamkos mentions. He was never the best player in the world, not even the best player at his position. Never won a hart/ross/lindsay. Only has 1 100 point season. Is a really mediocre playoff player of his stature. He has no business being mentioned.
Click to expand...

He’s not even in my top 20
 
  • Like
Reactions: slapKing
Hart trophy winners is a good starting point, I think, which OP obviously includes many of.
I think J. Thornton and H. Sedin deserve a look here. Perry and Hall...not so much.

Bergeron and Kopitar definitely in the discussion. Perhaps even Backstrom.
 
Regal said:
Which is funny because Stamkos played 1 game in their first cup win and wasn’t a top 5 most important player on their second
Click to expand...
Both of those Cups get big asterisks on them so I dont disagree. Stamkos gets mentions because he had ppg+ seasons at 19 and 34 years old. Outside of injuries, we never really saw him fall off until this season. And if not for injuries (150ish games lost), we are easily looking at 600-700 goals for him currently, and still counting obviously. Thats a big deal.
 
authentic said:
I mean during their best playoff runs which are on par with Gretzky’s and Lemieux’s when adjusted to the level of defensive teams faced Draisaitl had one less point than McDavid in 2022 playing on one leg. You don’t keep up with an all-time player like that when the going gets tough if you’re not an elite player on your own. Not to mention that MacKinnon, Kucherov and others play with elite players as well and the drop off from McDavid to whatever else Leon plays with is massive.
Click to expand...
i think that last line needs to be said again -

If McDavid didnt exist, Draisaitl would SURELY have SOMEONE of some star quality to play with. Edmonton wouldnt just let all that cap go unfilled.

Did that poster say Drai plays to an 87pt pace without McDavid? I may have imagined it..... And that is with very poor linemates. Whatever he does without McDavid is .... well, he basiclly goes from the worst linemates to the best single linemate, depending on whether or not he is with McD. The truth has to be somewhere in the middle, but probably 3/4s the way up as star players tend to get at least one semistar linemate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: daver and authentic
Dingo said:
i think that last line needs to be said again -

If McDavid didnt exist, Draisaitl would SURELY have SOMEONE of some star quality to play with. Edmonton wouldnt just let all that cap go unfilled.

Did that poster say Drai plays to an 87pt pace without McDavid? I may have imagined it..... And that is with very poor linemates. Whatever he does without McDavid is .... well, he basiclly goes from the worst linemates to the best single linemate, depending on whether or not he is with McD. The truth has to be somewhere in the middle, but probably 3/4s the way up as star players tend to get at least one semistar linemate.
Click to expand...
Why do you say that? Im being attacked by Habs fans right now for saying Suzuki is a low tier 1C/high end 2C. Whos to say the Oilers wouldnt simply have a Newhook type as their 2C? Outside of playing with McDavid, EDM isnt a draw for any reason. If that is gone, woof.

But I get the premise and we may see come 26-27, but likely Draisaitl is 1C and they bring in a Horvat/Trocheck/Steohensen/Bennett type 2C and they actually keep their centers separated resulting in 2 good lines vs one good one with no depth. But the result would likley be that 80-90 pt Draisaitl.
 
daver said:
Forwards only, at their peaks

Tier 1
Crosby
Malkin
McDavid
Ovechkin

Tier 2
Datysuk
Draisaitl
MacKinnon
Kane
Kucherov

#10?

Thornton, Stamkos, Matthews
Click to expand...

Just curious, are these in order?

Also don’t even see how Stamkos is in a conversation with Thornton or Matthews or close to contending for the 10th spot.
 
landy said:
Why do you say that? Im being attacked by Habs fans right now for saying Suzuki is a low tier 1C/high end 2C. Whos to say the Oilers wouldnt simply have a Newhook type as their 2C? Outside of playing with McDavid, EDM isnt a draw for any reason. If that is gone, woof.

But I get the premise and we may see come 26-27, but likely Draisaitl is 1C and they bring in a Horvat/Trocheck/Steohensen/Bennett type 2C and they actually keep their centers separated resulting in 2 good lines vs one good one with no depth. But the result would likley be that 80-90 pt Draisaitl.
Click to expand...

What do you suppose someone like Kucherov or MacKinnon would produce in that situation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Duke74
landy said:
No the 87 point pace is based on 60 total games spread out through both of their careers where 97 was out of the lineup. Its usually in stretches of a handful of games in a row only. We have literally never seen a full season or even a large stretch of games of Leon alone.

It it not close to the 71/87. They were true centers both captaining their own lines. You can argue Malkin saw the weaker matchups and then they played pp together, but over the course of the their careers, 97/29 have played 50%ish ES time together. That makes Leon a glorified winger more than a 1/2 center punch.
Click to expand...
Draisaitl's breakout season was 18-19. Although the sample size is small, Draisaitl is statistically outstanding without McDavid. He picks it up like Malkin used to when Crosby was out. The only games Draisaitl was without McDavid was during the regular season.

GPGAPTS
23132134
 
  • Like
Reactions: slapKing, Dingo, Duke74 and 1 other person
authentic said:
What do you suppose someone like Kucherov or MacKinnon would produce in that situation?
Click to expand...
Kucherov isnt a center, but MacKinnon essentially had that with Kadri, then they've been trying to replicate it, failing with Newhook, Johansen, Mittlestadt, and now Nelson. Even then, the Avs didnt put Mac with any of them 50% of their total ice time so its apples to oranges.

Rantanen is a winger obviously so that was his 1-2 punch for years, but obviously we are seeing how much Rantanen depended on Mac vs the other way around. MacKinnon simply never had a McDavid, Draisaitl, Crosby, Matthews to play 50% of his time with then put together when things got tough.

My whole point is we are seeing MacKinnon produce without it. I dont think Draisaitl would match what Mackinnon is doing assuming McDavid leaves. Outside of Mac or Kucherov, literally any player they bring in to put on Draisaitls wing is a downgrade from McDavid.
 
landy said:
Kucherov isnt a center, but MacKinnon essentially had that with Kadri, then they've been trying to replicate it, failing with Newhook, Johansen, Mittlestadt, and now Nelson. Even then, the Avs didnt put Mac with any of them 50% of their total ice time so its apples to oranges.

Rantanen is a winger obviously so that was his 1-2 punch for years, but obviously we are seeing how much Rantanen depended on Mac vs the other way around. MacKinnon simply never had a McDavid, Draisaitl, Crosby, Matthews to play 50% of his time with then put together when things got tough.

My whole point is we are seeing MacKinnon produce without it. I dont think Draisaitl would match what Mackinnon is doing assuming McDavid leaves. Outside of Mac or Kucherov, literally any player they bring in to put on Draisaitls wing is a downgrade from McDavid.
Click to expand...

MacKinnon does play with Makar. I agree that in general MacKinnon would likely score more than Draisaitl with similar talent, but I don’t know that it would be by much. Same goes for Kucherov, he plays with Point and Hedman and had Stamkos and now Geuntzel.

Looking at the last few playoffs if we were to assume MacKinnon would score much more than Draisaitl in his place, then that would mean he would end up scoring more than McDavid himself. You don’t really reach the levels Draisaitl has playing with McDavid (like essentially equaling him in points during some of their best playoff runs) without already being an elite of the elite player yourself.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Duke74
authentic said:
MacKinnon does play with Makar. I agree that in general MacKinnon would likely score more than Draisaitl with similar talent, but I don’t know that it would be by much. Same goes for Kucherov, he plays with Point and Hedman and had Stamkos and now Geuntzel.
Click to expand...
Both McDavid and Draisaitl play with Bouchard...the current holder of 3rd best single playoff in the history of the world.

B.png


If MacKinnon had McDavid for 50% of his ice time, they'd both put up 150+ points.

Anyone who is a top 10 forward since 2013 or 2005 (still confused on which lockout) is compared to Kucherov, MacKinnon, and McDavid, not Point, Makar, Hedman, Stamkos, Guentzal.
 
landy said:
Both McDavid and Draisaitl play with Bouchard...the current holder of 3rd best single playoff in the history of the world.

View attachment 998626

If MacKinnon had McDavid for 50% of his ice time, they'd both put up 150+ points.

Anyone who is a top 10 forward since 2013 or 2005 (still confused on which lockout) is compared to Kucherov, MacKinnon, and McDavid, not Point, Makar, Hedman, Stamkos, Guentzal.
Click to expand...
Bouchard????
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Ad

Ad

Top Bottom