Confirmed with Link: Toffoli to CGY for Emil Heineman, Tyler Pitlick + Picks (Part 2)

[Habs Halifax]

Not sure Zary was on the table and they decided to go with Heineman, if that the case I'm disappointed with that decision. Zary have celling to be a top 6 player even if it's not sure, I don't see Emil having that type of potential

I don't know. Just a hypothetical situation that could have been at play. Do you think Zary has a high chance at 2C? Possible but remember how high Vegas was with Glass over Suzuki? Zary's development since being drafted is not higher than Heineman.

Remember Borgstom when we were shopping Patch?

I don't know how it turns out but what I do know is I like the development Heineman has since being drafted. And when I look at prospects, I like to nit pick flaws and I don't see anything glaring.

 

[Hins77]

I understand the PR move. However, as you said, Chiarot will be a UFA and should garner a 1st rounder too. We're not used to having more than 1 1st rounder in Montreal. 2 would have been enough. Could have traded Chiarot this year and Toffoli next year. I'd be really surprised if anyone well connected told me that what they received this year would not have been matched next year; heck this is what I would have liked for Toffoli if he had been a pending UFA.. And the Habs would have had a mentor for scoring winger Cole Caufield.

We also have drafted a LOT of prospects these last couple of seasons, so spreading the picks over 2 years might have been a good idea to not lose prospects uselessly because of contract limits too.

.
Gallagher was valuable on trade market 1 year ago and an absolute garbage/cap dump right now. Things can change quickly. Injury can happen. Terms on Toffoli contract was valuable right now. Player value decrease when they are getting older. Toffoli is 29 now, 30 in 2 weeks. It’s like saying. 1,99$ is cheaper than 2,00$. I mean, there is plenty of factor, but something is right, we sold high on Toffoli wich is great on a rebuild

 

[dcyhabs]

Decent trade. Comes down to the development on Heineman and if we can hit on the 1st. Heineman to me is a middle 6F if he reaches his NHL ceiling level. Maybe a Hyman type.

Toffoli is going to play 3rd line for the Flames who will be rolling lines 5/5. Gets 2nd PP unit time?

Habs could look like idiots or we could look very good in 2.5 years when Toffoli needs a new contract and the Habs futures we got are just starting to show promise (or not). We will see but man, our draft power is going to be unreal from 17-24 draft years.

Toffoli will look very good on the Flames. They have a lot of big forwards who can open space, and Toffoli will have lots of chances to get open and score. Toffoli is one of the guys I least wanted to see leave but it balances the habs a bit more and it gives Toffoli a chance to compete in his prime.

The habs look like they are planning to bottom out for a few years and that should be fine as long as they don't rush their current batch of prospects. The 50 contract limit may be a problem and they'll have more Fonstad/Hillis/McShane/etc. decisions but, at least so far, they haven't released anyone who went on to prove them wrong. That said I wouldn't be surprised to see them bounce into mediocrity next year if Price comes back and they clean house. I doubt that there is any way for them to be competitive but they could get a meh draft pick.

 

[Vachon23]

I don't know. Just a hypothetical situation that could have been at play. Do you think Zary has a high chance at 2C? Possible but remember how high Vegas was with Glass over Suzuki? Zary's development since being drafted is not higher than Heineman.

Remember Borgstom when we were shopping Patch?

I don't know how it turns out but what I do know is I like the development Heineman has since being drafted. And when I look at prospects, I like to nit pick flaws and I don't see anything glaring.

Of course I'm ready to wait and see what Heineman will do, but if you give me the choice between Heineman and Zary at the hour yesterday before the trade was done, I'm taking Zary without hesitation and that was the case for most of the poster her, Heineman was never discuss when we where talking about a Toffoli to CGY trade

 

[sampollock]

I bet with Zary , you don't get a 1st from CGY , but a 2nd

 

[Habs Halifax]

Toffoli will look very good on the Flames. They have a lot of big forwards who can open space, and Toffoli will have lots of chances to get open and score. Toffoli is one of the guys I least wanted to see leave but it balances the habs a bit more and it gives Toffoli a chance to compete in his prime.

The habs look like they are planning to bottom out for a few years and that should be fine as long as they don't rush their current batch of prospects. The 50 contract limit may be a problem and they'll have more Fonstad/Hillis/McShane/etc. decisions but, at least so far, they haven't released anyone who went on to prove them wrong. That said I wouldn't be surprised to see them bounce into mediocrity next year if Price comes back and they clean house. I doubt that there is any way for them to be competitive but they could get a meh draft pick.

Personally, I'm not worried one bit what Toffoli does with the Flames. All that matters to us now is where Heineman tops out at and if we can hit with that 1st.

 

[Adam Michaels]

I bet with Zary , you don't get a 1st from CGY , but a 2nd

Neither with Pelletier.

Scott Wheeler is on TSN690 with Marinaro and he believes that the Habs preferred having a 1st round pick rather than a 2nd + a higher prospect. So they went for the 1st + a B prospect.

 

[Vachon23]

Neither with Pelletier.

Scott Wheeler is on TSN690 with Marinaro and he believes that the Habs preferred having a 1st round pick rather than a 2nd + a higher prospect. So they went for the 1st + a B prospect.

I would have prefer Pelletier + 2nd round pick then 1st + Heineman but we will see in 5 years

 

[Habs Halifax]

Of course I'm ready to wait and see what Heineman will do, but if you give me the choice between Heineman and Zary at the hour yesterday before the trade was done, I'm taking Zary without hesitation and that was the case for most of the poster her, Heineman was never discuss when we where talking about a Toffoli to CGY trade

I think it's deeper than where they were drafted and center/winger value. No idea if Zary was on the table but when I look at development between these two since they were drafted, I don't see substantial gaps. I have seen time and time again where later 1st end up struggling and someone in the 2nd is better. Not saying this will be the case for sure but I just don't see the gap in value.

It's just normal with fans. We talk Toffoli and we go top to bottom of what the Flames drafted and where they were drafted. It's not always like that and where they were drafted means nothing 2 years later.

 

[dcyhabs]

I don't know. Just a hypothetical situation that could have been at play. Do you think Zary has a high chance at 2C? Possible but remember how high Vegas was with Glass over Suzuki? Zary's development since being drafted is not higher than Heineman.

Remember Borgstom when we were shopping Patch?

I don't know how it turns out but what I do know is I like the development Heineman has since being drafted. And when I look at prospects, I like to nit pick flaws and I don't see anything glaring.

That is the advantage of trading for prospects. You get to see them closer to their peak then at draft time. The habs made a good call with Suzuki, and we have to hope they'll do well with their other pickups. If their scouting is not good enough now it is up to Hughes and Gorton to make it good enough. Florida and Carolina have been doing well with second rounders in Sweden, while the habs have not, so it makes sense to acquire some of their selections.

Prospects can be worth more than draft picks if the trading team doesn't appreciate them. Look at McDonagh and Sergachev... Some Canadian teams used to have a tradition of ritually trading their top prospect for a vet going into the playoffs and, while most aren't dumb enough to do it now, take advantage of anyone who can be persuaded.

 

[dcyhabs]

Personally, I'm not worried one bit what Toffoli does with the Flames. All that matters to us now is where Heineman tops out at and if we can hit with that 1st.

I'm not worried, but I think Toffoli will fit well there. The only aspect that bugs me is that I expect the trade to ensure the pick we get will be a late one.

 

[Adam Michaels]

I would have prefer Pelletier + 2nd round pick then 1st + Heineman but we will see in 5 years

Marinaro asked about Pelletier. And Wheeler says he sees Pelletier as a middle-6 winger, maybe 2nd line, but mostly a 3rd liner. And he said that he sees Heineman the same way.

Of course we'll see how it goes for both Pelletier and Heineman.

My personal opinion? The reason they got a B prospect rather than a higher prospect like Pelletier is because Habs didn't want to retain salary. MAYBE if they chose to retain part of the salary over the next few years, they may have been able to get a better prospect. But I think one of the goals of the deal was that Habs save money.

 

[dcyhabs]

I would have prefer Pelletier + 2nd round pick then 1st + Heineman but we will see in 5 years

The prospect is more of a known quality. Unless late picks are looking really good you take the better prospect. There could be fit issues, Pelletier is 5'9, and the habs have loads of small skilled guys. There is a definite lack of physical players like Heineman. MB appeared to look at individual trades as win/loss in a vaccuum as opposed to how they would help the team. Picking up Savard and Hoffman really went in that direction. If Hughes and Gorton are looking more into building a balanced team with players who fit together that can only be a good thing. That said Pelletier is doing fine in the AHL at 20.

 

[salbutera]

Marinaro asked about Pelletier. And Wheeler says he sees Pelletier as a middle-6 winger, maybe 2nd line, but mostly a 3rd liner. And he said that he sees Heineman the same way.

Of course we'll see how it goes for both Pelletier and Heineman.

My personal opinion? The reason they got a B prospect rather than a higher prospect like Pelletier is because Habs didn't want to retain salary. MAYBE if they chose to retain part of the salary over the next few years, they may have been able to get a better prospect. But I think one of the goals of the deal was that Habs save money.

IMO Gorton/Hughes evaluated similar ceilings w both Pelletier & Heineken bottle - and decided to pocket a 1st + the physically bigger prospect

 

[Karma Police]

Why is everyone assuming Pelletier was involved in the trades? Maybe CGY didn't wan't anything to do with trading him or maybe MTL doesn't like him.

 

[Adam Michaels]

IMO Gorton/Hughes evaluated similar ceilings w both Pelletier & Heineken bottle - and decided to pocket a 1st + the physically bigger prospect

That pretty much echoes the way Wheeler sees it. He sees Pelletier as a 3rd liner. He also sees Heineman as a 3rd liner, but he could be one of those 3rd liners that contributes. And the Habs preferred to get the 1st.

 

[salbutera]

Why is everyone assuming Pelletier was involved in the trades? Maybe CGY didn't wan't anything to do with trading him or maybe MTL doesn't like him.

Salim Valji the Flames TSN reporter said yesterday Coronado & Pelletier are the only untouchables in their prospect pool

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Why is everyone assuming Pelletier was involved in the trades? Maybe CGY didn't wan't anything to do with trading him or maybe MTL doesn't like him.

Calgary is likely losing Gaudreau this year, odds are they feel Pelletier can be an option to try and replace some of his production next year and there was no chance of them moving him.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Why is everyone assuming Pelletier was involved in the trades? Maybe CGY didn't wan't anything to do with trading him or maybe MTL doesn't like him.

I don't think he was on the table, either. Calgary has no interest in moving him. I think fans mention Pelletier because it's who many of us wanted.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm not worried, but I think Toffoli will fit well there. The only aspect that bugs me is that I expect the trade to ensure the pick we get will be a late one.

The late pick is miniscule cause it only matters in term of being able to target who we value on our on draft board. At that range of the draft, the draft boards vary from team to team. At the end of the day, we need our scouts to do their homework

 

[YukonCornelius 5thOA]

Why is everyone assuming Pelletier was involved in the trades? Maybe CGY didn't wan't anything to do with trading him or maybe MTL doesn't like him.

I know one reason was when the trade appeared to be imminent Tony on TSN690 all of the sudden became a Flames prospect expert and zeroed in on Pelletier and now a lot of his mouth breathing brethren are just repeating it. I’d wager he and 95% of his repeaters never heard of Pelletier until Tony googled “Calgary Flames prospects”.

 

[Adam Michaels]

So Calgary's doing real well this year. They are 8-2-0 in their last 10 and are currently on a 6-game winning streak.

But their division is pretty tight. They will most likely make the playoffs. But it's still not a guarantee:

1st: Vegas (59 pts in 48 GP)
2nd: Calgary (58 pts in 45 GP)
3rd: LA Kings (55 pts in 47 GP)
4th: Anaheim (55 pts in 49 GP) ** 2nd Wild Card Spot **
5th: Edmonton (53 pts in 49 GP)

And then when you look at the other division, the Wild Cars spots are really up for grabs.


It's unlike the Eastern Conference where there is a separation.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't think he was on the table, either. Calgary has no interest in moving him. I think fans mention Pelletier because it's who many of us wanted.

It will be interesting to look back in a few years and who is better (Toffoli talk lately vs Patch trade talk a few years ago). Borgstrom, Glass, Thomas, Suzuki. Suzuki was the B+ type and the others were considered A type prospects. Borgstrom and Glass struggling and Thomas/Suzuki shinning

I am confident that the Habs did their homework on Heineman and how he fits our depth charts. Otherwise, they would not put all the gamble on the 20-30 range pick and waited till draft day or this summer to move Toffoli. Habs management are clearly high on the Swede

 

[Rapala]

Do people really think Gorton is relying solely on the staff in place when it comes to scouting? That's absurd. He comes here with a bag full of contacts from his past. No one can convince me there isn't a ton of back scratching going behind the scenes. You don't burn bridges and you help when you can. The boots on the ground need job security too.

 

[Rapala]

Patrik Bexell spoke with Heineman's coach, and this is one quote from that interview:

“He had a good shot last year, but damn it’s even better this year,” Hellkvist said. “I have worked a bit with Victor Olofsson and there are some similarities with their shots, even if I think that Viktor has more of a technical shot whereas Emil uses power; Emil can shot through a defender. Victor doesn’t do that.”

Here is the full interview:



And Bexell adds his thoughts after speaking with the coach and also watching some film:

This ain't no DLR people. He had zero offensive instinct.