Speculation: Toffoli potentially to CGY

[Heffyhoof]

Im not comparing Roy to Pelletier directly. Good on Roy though, you should look up Kerins in the OHL though

You were replying to a comment of mine wherein I didn't name Roy but merely used comparable production to downplay overhyping an older prospect. You should look up the likely 100s of AHL players who've scored at comparable levels at the same age?

Also Rory was drafted a year before Roy. Roy is still scoring at a far higher PPG pace in the same league on a comparably meh team as Pelletier while being younger. This conversation is going nowhere, so bookmark my comments and rub it in my face when Pelletier is more than a decent 2nd liner 4-6 years from now.

 

[Habs10025]

Montreal trading Toffoli is unlikely . .

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Montreal trading Toffoli is unlikely . .

I agree with this. They need SOMEONE to play on the team, and trading Toffoli definitely isn't a priority. The offer would have to be excellent.

 

[Archijerej]

Habs fan - "Pelletier+++"

Exaggerate much?

The basic point is that a late 1st or an equivalent prospect as a cornerstone of an offer for Toffoli is not good enough to entice the Habs to trade him. If the Flames have a prospect/young player that is worth more than that and is not named Pelletier, then there is room for discussion. Otherwise, not really.

 

[General Fanager]

Please enlighten us. What Pelletier level prospects are you receiving?

Pelletier is a former first round pick, who since the draft, has killed it at the WJC and is now ppg in the AHL.

Who knows, maybe one day he will be as good as Toffoli.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Exaggerate much?

The basic point is that a late 1st or an equivalent prospect as a cornerstone of an offer for Toffoli is not good enough to entice the Habs to trade him. If the Flames have a prospect/young player that is worth more than that and is not named Pelletier, then there is room for discussion. Otherwise, not really.

Toffoli is not worth a 1st + a top 50 prospect though. How hard is it to understand this. Not a single team is going to offer that. If Habs would rather hold on to him then so be it, but that is not the purpose of this thread. There is a lot of speculation on Toffoli to Calgary so if there is any merit to a potential trade then maybe try and have an actual conversation besides "Pelletier or he's not getting moved."

 

[Archijerej]

Toffoli is not worth a 1st + a top 50 prospect though.

I agree. That's why, if I determined that Pelletier is a A-level prospect (which I don't know if he is, but seems to be the closest out of what you have), I wouldn't be asking for a 1st on top of that.

The meat of an offer has to be more than a late 1st (or equivalent), that's all I'm saying. There's no point in trading Toffoli now, for something the Habs can get in a year or two.

If the Flames have something that meets these requirements without involving Pelletier, then I'd be happy to have a discussion and I'm prepared to never utter his name again.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I agree. That's why, if I determined that Pelletier is a A-level prospect (which I don't know if he is, but seems to be the closest out of what you have), I wouldn't be asking for a 1st on top of that.

The meat of an offer has to be more than a late 1st (or equivalent), that's all I'm saying. There's no point in trading Toffoli now, for something the Habs can get in a year or two.

If the Flames have something that meets these requirements without involving Pelletier, then I'd be happy to have a discussion and I'm prepared to never utter his name again.

Montreal isn't exactly close to competing, and definitely not if Toffoli is moved. Why is getting someone NHL ready now so important? Ill say it again, you are probably looking at a return similar to Sam Reinhart, so a 1st and a B+ prospect

 

[Archijerej]

Montreal isn't exactly close to competing, and definitely not if Toffoli is moved. Why is getting someone NHL ready now so important? Ill say it again, you are probably looking at a return similar to Sam Reinhart, so a 1st and a B+ prospect

Being able to evaluate a prospect after he's been drafted is always important, because it significantly reduces risk of trading a real asset for a bust. Also, the closer a prospect is to Nick Suzuki age-wise, the better he fits Montreal's plans. He doesn't necessarily has to be NHL ready right away.

Who would be this B+ prospect in Calgary's case?

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Being able to evaluate a prospect after he's been drafted is always important, because it significantly reduces risk of trading a real asset for a bust. Also, the closer a prospect is to Nick Suzuki age-wise, the better he fits Montreal's plans. He doesn't necessarily has to be NHL ready right away.

Who would be this B+ prospect in Calgary's case?

I would say Calgary has a few around that rank: Kerins, Francis, Heineman, Kuznetsov, Poirier all come to mind. Valimaki is still around A- IMO, same tier as Romanov on the Habs.

 

[Hobnobs]

Being able to evaluate a prospect after he's been drafted is always important, because it significantly reduces risk of trading a real asset for a bust. Also, the closer a prospect is to Nick Suzuki age-wise, the better he fits Montreal's plans. He doesn't necessarily has to be NHL ready right away.

Who would be this B+ prospect in Calgary's case?

Probably someone like Kuznetsov? How do Flames value Strömgren or Cole Huckins?

 

[Archijerej]

I would say Calgary has a few around that rank: Kerins, Francis, Heineman, Kuznetsov, Poirier all come to mind. Valimaki is still around A- IMO, same tier as Romanov on the Habs.

I'm not a scout, but none of those prospects has accomplished anything noteworthy at professional level. I'd pass.

 

[Archijerej]

Probably someone like Kuznetsov? How do Flames value Strömgren or Cole Huckins?

Not even remotely interesting either from the point of view of our needs (we are stacked with LHD), nor in the context of trading Toffoli with 3 years left on his sweetheart deal.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I'm not a scout, but none of those prospects has accomplished anything noteworthy at professional level. I'd pass.

You asked about prospects, generally speaking prospects don't play at a professional level, and if they do they are probably A to A+ level, or D+5 or older prospects. Would you prefer someone like Gawdin? He's shown success at the AHL level and some success at the NHL

 

[Archijerej]

You asked about prospects, generally speaking prospects don't play at a professional level, and if they do they are probably A to A+ level, or D+5 or older prospects.

Why? A prospect finishes his junior career, or he plays in Europe, and then at the age of 20-22 you can evaluate what they're made of at professional level and what kind of a player (and the degree of probability) they project to be in the NHL. Isn't that precisely what elevated the value of the one who shall not be named above a late 1st (where he was selected)? That's what I'd be looking for (obviously, with a lesser amount of success than the one that shall not be named) and what I'm not finding on your list.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Why? A prospect finishes his junior career, or he plays in Europe, and then at the age of 20-22 you can evaluate what they're made of at professional level and what kind of a player (and the degree of probability) they project to be in the NHL. Isn't that precisely what elevated the value of the one who shall not be named above a late 1st (where he was selected)? That's what I'd be looking for (obviously, with a lesser amount of success than the one that shall not be named) and what I'm not finding on your list.

Well for starters, of those 5 guys I named 3 of them are currently 19 and the other 2 just turned 20. So like I don't really get what you are expecting here. You aren't going to find a school 0f 2017-2019 draftee's from the Flames here as they did not make a lot of selections in those years. Ruzicka is really the only other name that fits that description but he is more like Jake Evans. The goal of scouting is to find diamonds in the rough, there is an inherent risk for every team that rebuilds. You could end up like 2016 Boston with 3 whiffs in the first round of the draft, or you could end up like Tampa with their entire first line being drafted in the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th rounds. My suggestion would be to do a little research on some of the names I mentioned instead of just shrugging them off because they are still prospects

 

[Archijerej]

Well for starters, of those 5 guys I named 3 of them are currently 19 and the other 2 just turned 20. So like I don't really get what you are expecting here. You aren't going to find a school 0f 2017-2019 draftee's from the Flames here as they did not make a lot of selections in those years. Ruzicka is really the only other name that fits that description but he is more like Jake Evans. The goal of scouting is to find diamonds in the rough, there is an inherent risk for every team that rebuilds. You could end up like 2016 Boston with 3 whiffs in the first round of the draft, or you could end up like Tampa with their entire first line being drafted in the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th rounds. My suggestion would be to do a little research on some of the names I mentioned instead of just shrugging them off because they are still prospects

I appreciate the info. Perhaps it's possible that the Habs' scouts like someone out of your group enough to consider him a centerpiece of the Toffoli trade, but I doubt that. We'll see how it turns out.

 

[FrankMTL]

I think the whole argument behind this thread is that Flames fans don't think Toffoli is worth what Canadiens fans are asking for him and Canadiens fans are saying what it would take to get him out of Montreal. You're both right. Toffoli isn't worth what "some" Habs fans are asking for him, but at the same time, Habs fans don't want to trade Toffoli unless it's an overpayment. Hence why they're asking for more than he's probably worth. Habs are in no rush to trade Toffoli. He's a great scorer on a very affordable contract. If the fit isn't there, move on.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I appreciate the info. Perhaps it's possible that the Habs' scouts like someone out of your group enough to consider him a centerpiece of the Toffoli trade, but I doubt that. We'll see how it turns out.

Well the 1st is the centerpiece. Just like how Levi wasn't the centerpiece for Reinhart

 

[Archijerej]

Well the 1st is the centerpiece. Just like how Levi wasn't the centerpiece for Reinhart

As I said earlier, a late 1st as a centerpiece for Toffoli doesn't make sense for Montreal.

 

[madmike77]

I really don't see this deal happening. For Montreal, Toffoli is a 1st line player and one of their best. They're going to want a lot for him.

For Calgary, Toffoli will be used as a complementary 2nd or 3rd line winger who sees a decent chunk of PP time. That's valuable, but likely not valuable enough to cough up what Montreal will want.

 

[CgyFlamesftw]

I can’t take HF posters seriously anymore when comes to flames prospects. Adam fox, Johnny Gaudreau, Andrew Mangipane, Rasmus Anderson, Oliver Kylington just to name a few were all considered B prospects from most of Hf. Now two of them are superstars. Reading some of the comments here just solidifies the usual flames prospects are trash narrative.

 

[samsagat]

inb4 Habs fans start demanding Pelletier + 1st for Toffoli

Yeah and answers from Cgy fans arguing that Toffoli is old, an average player and was traded for a 2nd, an ok prospect and a borderline NHL player 2 years ago (not taking into account that Toffoli has put up very good performances since and is signed to an advantageous contract with terms), so making ridiculous counteroffers like:

Poirier + 4th + Lucic

Saying that Pelletier (which I totally understand), Zary, Coronato or any of their 1st is off the book.

Finally, typical HFboard where both sides are delusional...

 

[Volica]

I can’t take HF posters seriously anymore when comes to flames prospects. Adam fox, Johnny Gaudreau, Andrew Mangipane, Rasmus Anderson, Oliver Kylington just to name a few were all considered B prospects from most of Hf. Now two of them are superstars. Reading some of the comments here just solidifies the usual flames prospects are trash narrative.

The wild thing right now is this current prospect pool might be the strongest it’s ever been.

Multiple prospects dominating multiple leagues. You love to see it.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I remember him saying he was meant to be a Hab.