Advice: To try out or not to try out

[Yukon Joe]

So the biggest problem with “make it so they can’t say no” is that you need to play against better players to develop. If my kid played House League this year and absolutely demolished it, he wouldn’t learn anything about what’s expected of a AA player nor would he be on the ice 5 times a week for power skating.

These things get set in stone from a young age and then the kids play for years together. They do the same drills every week that will eventually show up in tryouts.

I feel like maybe guys like you and Slats don’t notice stuff like this as much, because you probably have had your kids in hockey since age 3 and play prominent roles in your respective organizations.

There’s a rival hockey club starting in our area that I find really intriguing. They claim to be anti politics and pro development. Thinking something like that wouldn’t exist if this wasn’t a shared experience. Too bad my kid hates the idea (doesn’t want to leave his friends).

So I'm going to agree, and disagree, with a few points.

First I disagree with "you need to play with better players". You need to play with comparable players. If you're playing at too high a level you won't touch the puck. If you play at too low a level then yes you won't develop and will learn bad habits.

I'll also disagree with "things get in stone from a young age". Things can start to get set - but not from a young age. Both of my kids were nowhere near the top at a young age, and some of those who were superstars at 7 have completely fallen off. But then yes - if you've played at a high level for a couple of years, you'll probably get the benefit of the doubt if everything else is equal

I am also not prominent in my organization. I assistant coach, I do some volunteering which gets me some credit, but I am not (and never have been) in any kind of director or other leadership role.

Ice time - ABSOLUTELY a concern. My 2012 kid didn't make a high level team last year. I was fine with that - but it meant only 2 ice times per week, whereas at higher levels would have been more. We sought out and put him in separate power skating to try and make up for it. I think it was definitely worthwhile, though we'll see how he does next week.

Rival hockey club - everyone says they are "anti politics". My extremely limited experience though with alternatives to "regular hockey" though is very much that money talks. If you can write a cheque your kid can make the team - and their skill level doesn't matter so much.

"Make it so they can't say no" is just a reflection that the world isn't perfect (it never will be), and that you should just control what is in your ability to control. Don't worry that they might evaluate you to be the 14th best forward, while you think you should be #10 - be the 5th best forward out there and remove any argument.

Always remember though - this is just one hockey dad's opinion, and I definitely don't have all the answers.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

So I'm going to agree, and disagree, with a few points.

First I disagree with "you need to play with better players". You need to play with comparable players. If you're playing at too high a level you won't touch the puck. If you play at too low a level then yes you won't develop and will learn bad habits.

I'll also disagree with "things get in stone from a young age". Things can start to get set - but not from a young age. Both of my kids were nowhere near the top at a young age, and some of those who were superstars at 7 have completely fallen off. But then yes - if you've played at a high level for a couple of years, you'll probably get the benefit of the doubt if everything else is equal

I am also not prominent in my organization. I assistant coach, I do some volunteering which gets me some credit, but I am not (and never have been) in any kind of director or other leadership role.

Ice time - ABSOLUTELY a concern. My 2012 kid didn't make a high level team last year. I was fine with that - but it meant only 2 ice times per week, whereas at higher levels would have been more. We sought out and put him in separate power skating to try and make up for it. I think it was definitely worthwhile, though we'll see how he does next week.

Rival hockey club - everyone says they are "anti politics". My extremely limited experience though with alternatives to "regular hockey" though is very much that money talks. If you can write a cheque your kid can make the team - and their skill level doesn't matter so much.

"Make it so they can't say no" is just a reflection that the world isn't perfect (it never will be), and that you should just control what is in your ability to control. Don't worry that they might evaluate you to be the 14th best forward, while you think you should be #10 - be the 5th best forward out there and remove any argument.

Always remember though - this is just one hockey dad's opinion, and I definitely don't have all the answers.

Yeah I’m definitely talking to people on a message board because I’m interested in their opinions.

Anyway I don’t know if the rival club will even get off the ground, and it probably threatens to decrease our club’s enrolment. But they are definitely trying to say the right things. They are not trying to be an academy or AAA team. They want to start their own league and they’re big on development. Don’t ask me for any specifics beyond that though.

 

[DJB]

I’ve been pretty lucky really. My younger son is a goaltender and he’s been recruited pretty heavily and has made teams never been cut. But I have seen some players come to camps play really well but they didn’t make it over other kids who the coaches know or have been on the team before who were far lesser players

My older son has only been cut from the grade 7/8 school team and he was one of the last cuts as he was in grade 7. Maybe his size and age was a thing but I may never know

I personally haven’t faced a lot of it but do know that in Canada there is significant politics involved in competitive hockey. Fair or unfairly

 

[Yukon Joe]

My older son has only been cut from the grade 7/8 school team and he was one of the last cuts as he was in grade 7. Maybe his size and age was a thing but I may never know

Even in junior high coaches are looking for size. Whether consciously or not.

Age - I think works in reverse actually. If the team extends to a couple of birth years they do want to include a few first years just so they gain experience for the following year.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Rival hockey club - everyone says they are "anti politics". My extremely limited experience though with alternatives to "regular hockey" though is very much that money talks. If you can write a cheque your kid can make the team - and their skill level doesn't matter so much.

Funny you say this. When my daughter first started Jr Rangers Learn to Play, I posted some pics on facebook. A guy with whom I worked had kids who were playing travel, his kids are older than mine. I picked his brain a bit as I never played and this whole thing was new to me. At the time, had no idea what this would turn into. Whether she would just do learn to play and lose interest, whether she would eventually play travel, etc. What I didnt realize was how non-existent the house leagues were around here. Two things that he said stuck out. First, was to keep her playing with and against the boys for as long as she can hack it. Second was whatever I did, do not bring her to Team X. Said they are known throughout NJ as the team that will put a kid on whatever team the parents want the kid to play if they put the correct # on the check. Will tell kids who are A/B players that they can play AAA. Basically, lots of false promises. Since he told me that, I have heard the same thing about Team X from 4 different people, none of whom know my co-worker or each other.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Funny you say this. When my daughter first started Jr Rangers Learn to Play, I posted some pics on facebook. A guy with whom I worked had kids who were playing travel, his kids are older than mine. I picked his brain a bit as I never played and this whole thing was new to me. At the time, had no idea what this would turn into. Whether she would just do learn to play and lose interest, whether she would eventually play travel, etc. What I didnt realize was how non-existent the house leagues were around here. Two things that he said stuck out. First, was to keep her playing with and against the boys for as long as she can hack it. Second was whatever I did, do not bring her to Team X. Said they are known throughout NJ as the team that will put a kid on whatever team the parents want the kid to play if they put the correct # on the check. Will tell kids who are A/B players that they can play AAA. Basically, lots of false promises. Since he told me that, I have heard the same thing about Team X from 4 different people, none of whom know my co-worker or each other.

So this new competing organization in our area isn’t preaching that your kid will play AAA. They are claiming to be focused on player development. One of the claims was something along the lines of “if your kid didn’t do well in tryout X, we’ll make sure he’s way better prepared for next year”. Bold claim. They basically want to start their own isolated league and focus on tryout prep/hockey skills.

Just learned our organization’s leading scorer in house league is leaving after failing to make a rep squad. Shocking but I get it. Another year dominating house league does nothing for him. There’s a big gulf between those two leagues, and I think tweeners suffer.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So this new competing organization in our area isn’t preaching that your kid will play AAA. They are claiming to be focused on player development. One of the claims was something along the lines of “if your kid didn’t do well in tryout X, we’ll make sure he’s way better prepared for next year”. Bold claim. They basically want to start their own isolated league and focus on tryout prep/hockey skills.

Just learned our organization’s leading scorer in house league is leaving after failing to make a rep squad. Shocking but I get it. Another year dominating house league does nothing for him. There’s a big gulf between those two leagues, and I think tweeners suffer.

So obviously I don't know this organization you're talking about. I also want to emphasize that most people in unaffiliated/"rebel" leagues and organizations are not scammers and liars. They mean what they say - but do remember that at the end of the day someone is trying to make a buck off of your kid. There's nothing wrong with trying to make a buck in this world - just keep it in the back of your mind.

I can't remember if I said this before - there definitely can be a "rich getting richer" kind of effect. If your kid makes an elite/AAA/travel team, suddenly you're on the ice 5x per week, working with skills and strength coaches, and just generally getting better. Whereas if you're the very last cut, you then move to house/federation/rec - now you're on the ice twice per week being coached by someone's dad with questionable experience. It's hard to improve to try and make it the next year.

 

[oldunclehue]

Well my 2011 was cut from AAA last night. He played well but just tentative with the puck and wasn’t winning races as he seemed to be tentative with the hitting as well. I knew he wouldn’t make it after the first game but the politics around who made it to the intersquad game was obvious.

As of now the AAA team has no coach so the board members are picking the team. The board president had a niece trying out. She’s a good skater but very undersized and got burned about 10 times for breakaways by the forwards. My son didn’t get beat once on a 1vs1. Multiple other kids cut showed much better than the niece. She made it through while 5 others who most ppl in the rink agreed should have been there.

Following the intersquad game (I went and watched to support some players I’ve coached over the years). She again looked out of place but made it through to the next round while several players cut were told they wanted size and grittiness. Presidents niece continued on. Just frustrating for all the kids to sit there and have no explanation why it happened.

Anyway. On to club hockey. Likely not a bad thing at all as the AAA team will struggle to win 5 games all year.

Everything happens for a reason

 

[jetsmooseice]

As expected, my kid gave it a shot but was part of the first round of AA cuts. I was a bit concerned about what it would do to his psyche, but he does not seem bent out of shape about it, he's ready to jump into A tryouts.

In retrospect, and to answer my question from the original post in this thread, there was no real downside to signing him up for tryouts. It opened his eyes to what competition for the top tiers looks like. I guess I'd look at it differently if he was a more fragile kid who could get psyched out by being cut, but that was not the case here.

 

[Yukon Joe]

As expected, my kid gave it a shot but was part of the first round of AA cuts. I was a bit concerned about what it would do to his psyche, but he does not seem bent out of shape about it, he's ready to jump into A tryouts.

In retrospect, and to answer my question from the original post in this thread, there was no real downside to signing him up for tryouts. It opened his eyes to what competition for the top tiers looks like. I guess I'd look at it differently if he was a more fragile kid who could get psyched out by being cut, but that was not the case here.

Yeah - I think the downside to trying out is A: the financial cost and B: potentially the opportunity cost (in that you can't then try-out somewhere else at that time). I think most kids are emotionally solid enough to take that rejection, and it might in fact light a bit of a fire under them for next year.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Yeah - I think the downside to trying out is A: the financial cost and B: potentially the opportunity cost (in that you can't then try-out somewhere else at that time). I think most kids are emotionally solid enough to take that rejection, and it might in fact light a bit of a fire under them for next year.

Where I am it's fairly well integrated so that trying out does not really cost you anything - you don't miss the boat on A (community club) hockey as they stream you into A tryouts after being cut from AA, and your tryout fee is refunded too.

In terms of where my kid is at, I really don't know that it's going to light a fire under him. I've led my horse to water, so to speak, but it's up to him to drink. He enjoys hockey and is always eager to go to practices, skill sessions, etc., but he will never do dryland training of any kind. By contrast, I never played organized hockey at all, but I still enjoyed going into the backyard with a pail of pucks and firing clappers with my Titan wooden stick for fun. He will not. Mind you, I didn't have the indoor entertainment options that kids these days do, haha.

I think my kid's current trajectory, as a reasonably skilled, coachable and athletic child but one who is a bit smaller and not necessarily super competitive or driven, is to continue playing a higher level of A hockey. At this rate I don't see AA, let alone AAA, in his future. I am fine with this, though, I would just like him to keep playing as I think he benefits a lot from playing a sport.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Where I am it's fairly well integrated so that trying out does not really cost you anything - you don't miss the boat on A (community club) hockey as they stream you into A tryouts after being cut from AA, and your tryout fee is refunded too.

In terms of where my kid is at, I really don't know that it's going to light a fire under him. I've led my horse to water, so to speak, but it's up to him to drink. He enjoys hockey and is always eager to go to practices, skill sessions, etc., but he will never do dryland training of any kind. By contrast, I never played organized hockey at all, but I still enjoyed going into the backyard with a pail of pucks and firing clappers with my Titan wooden stick for fun. He will not. Mind you, I didn't have the indoor entertainment options that kids these days do, haha.

I think my kid's current trajectory, as a reasonably skilled, coachable and athletic child but one who is a bit smaller and not necessarily super competitive or driven, is to continue playing a higher level of A hockey. At this rate I don't see AA, let alone AAA, in his future. I am fine with this, though, I would just like him to keep playing as I think he benefits a lot from playing a sport.

Yeah I think playing sports in general has life long benefits. If he wants to get exercise playing in a men’s league later on that avenue will be open to him. My son is in really good physical shape and stays out of trouble, and those are priorities 1 and 2 for me.

If he’s like me no matter what he achieves, he’ll remember those great youth hockey moments for the rest of his life, regardless of level.

When you mentioned shooting pucks in the backyard that got me. We did stuff like that because we were bored, not because some hockey guy on the internet told us we had to shoot 10 000 pucks in a summer to skill up. That’s the difference today.