Advice: To try out or not to try out

[Akrapovince]

It's a bad system and they are losing some players. In saying that, there are lots of kids that could be playing at a higher level in football, volleyball or basketball if they would change sports.

You think it would help if last cuts from traditionally top teams such as SSAC or SPKAC were able to become “free agents” and go to freely try out for another organization?

 

[timekeep]

I grew up in the 80's and 90's in Winnipeg. Around 1994ish I recall some of the first spring and summer programs coming out (Manitoba Mustangs, Winnipeg Jr Jets and Manitoba Polar Ice), I was asked to play but my parents couldn't afford it at the time. Almost all the guys I knew who played ended up hating competitive hockey by the age of 16 and decided to go to highschool sports.

I played AAA, CHL and Junior A, no one until the age of about 15-16 really started doing anything after the hockey season was over until about that age. The first real hockey focused program was Focus Fitness.

Now I have a son who is trying out for AAA, he plays spring and also does workouts with a hockey trainer. But he does about half of what some of the "elite" kids in our AAA area are doing. It's wild to me to see 13 year olds playing hockey year round, going to skating coaches, strength coaches, shooting coaches and even having advisors at this young age. I know of two that are going to a hockey academy this winter who are 13-14 years old, they don't take a week off the sport of hockey, driving in to Winnipeg every weekend and going to Vegas, Minneapolis, Toronto, Florida, Europe and many many more places yearly.....talented and good players, I just hope burn out factor doesn't hit them as it will be devastating to parents that spend that amount of money on a sport.


I was the OP, I still stand by the fact that turning sports into business at the minor age levels has created an unrealistic environment for most players. The rich folks can keep up with eachother and have an advantage in hockey development, much like every other sport now a days. For me its sad to see, I grew up in a poor community and parents that scraped by to make it work, but was able to make it to a decent level. Now you will almost never see that happen....it's just such a low chance of doing it unless you are willing to throw money at development outside of minor hockey programs.

Hockey is a sport for the rich, nothing cheap about it and it's been that way for a while. My kid did play spring hockey mainly due to very weak winter organization's. One they winter parents didn't want to play tier 1 to start the year. I knew we would be dropped but wanted them to be exposed to the higher competition. Lots of whining for the first couple of months.

You think it would help if last cuts from traditionally top teams such as SSAC or SPKAC were able to become “free agents” and go to freely try out for another organization?

Some of them do or are allowed but that seems like a political decision.

 

[Slats432]

Then you have the AA late cuts that miss tier 1/2 tryouts and have to play in tier 3.

This happens for sure. I have a hard time believing that if you are a late cut in U18AAA, then tryout for another U18AAA team, then get released to U18AA, and did two tryouts that you would end up in Federation hockey. That would mean four different coaches thought a player wasn't good enough for club hockey. I would think it would be time to think if it might be the player.

If things are weird in rural areas like the Fort, Sherwood Park etc, I may not know about it, but in the city of Edmonton, I couldn't name one and I have been around for 15 years.

 

[BCNate]

Always tryout, especially if you are on the younger end. If they don't make it this time around, they will still see the level, and know what the tryout looks like for next time. Trying out also gets your foot in the door to be an affiliate player for some games if they don't make it. Most leagues won't consider players for AP if hey don't tryout.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Always tryout, especially if you are on the younger end. If they don't make it this time around, they will still see the level, and know what the tryout looks like for next time. Trying out also gets your foot in the door to be an affiliate player for some games if they don't make it. Most leagues won't consider players for AP if hey don't tryout.

Thank you, I appreciate this insight.

 

[patnyrnyg]

MLAC, U18 late cute from AAA and had to play Seera Tier 1. It happens all the time. Now I don’t know if that happens out of choice or necessity.

Then you have the AA late cuts that miss tier 1/2 tryouts and have to play in tier 3.

Why can't they spread out the tryouts a little more? Here (NJ) tier 1 tryouts are around 3/15. Tier 2 are held over 3 days starting around 3/26. If you don't make a tier 2 team, there are always teams looking to pick up a player. It is a little different as the tier 2 teams are not "AA organizations". Within tier 2, you have AA, A, B and most orgs have multiple tier 2 teams at each age level. One year an org's top PW team might be AA and the following year Low-A. They declare to the league and then there is a pre-season after which teams get moved up or down. Team declares as AA and then gets crushed in their pre-season games, they will drop down to High-A or even Low-A. A team declares for Low-A and crushes everyone, they will move up. We are also not limited by geography.

edit: those march dates are 12U and below. 14U and up are in April, but about a 2-week spread between tier 1 and 2.

 

[Slats432]

Why can't they spread out the tryouts a little more? Here (NJ) tier 1 tryouts are around 3/15. Tier 2 are held over 3 days starting around 3/26. If you don't make a tier 2 team, there are always teams looking to pick up a player. It is a little different as the tier 2 teams are not "AA organizations". Within tier 2, you have AA, A, B and most orgs have multiple tier 2 teams at each age level. One year an org's top PW team might be AA and the following year Low-A. They declare to the league and then there is a pre-season after which teams get moved up or down. Team declares as AA and then gets crushed in their pre-season games, they will drop down to High-A or even Low-A. A team declares for Low-A and crushes everyone, they will move up. We are also not limited by geography.

In Canada tryouts are in September going into the season, not at the end of last season for the next fall. The assumption is that a player may develop alot in the 6 months between the end of one year and the start of the next.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I’ve seen it happen a lot in Ontario. Let me explain.

Many AAA organizations within the residency-restricted Ontario Minor Hockey Association operate as “zone” organizations. They do not have AA or A teams, just AAA, and their players come from all the smaller organizations within their zones.

So let me give you an example. The Southern Tier Admirals are a residency-restricted AAA OMHA organization. The players who tryout come from about 10 distinct minor hockey associations, the majority of which are below the “A” level (Port Colborne, Thorold, Pelham, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Fort Erie, Wainfleet, etc.).

So a kid from, say, Pelham is the last cut from Southern Tier’s AAA tryouts. Pelham is a “B” centre. Because of residency restrictions, the only way the kid can avoid playing B-level rep. hockey for Pelham is if he can make a AA or A centre team as a “non-resident player.” Here’s the catch: each AA and A centre is only allowed to sign a maximum of three non-resident players. Further, the kid from Pelham who was the hypothetical “last cut” from AAA Southern Tier is only allowed to tryout for ONE AA or A centre team, and he is competing for one of just three available spots. To be clear: he can tryout for ONE and ONLY ONE AA or A team, and those teams can only sign THREE non-resident players.

To me, this is absolutely crazy. I get the idea of geographic restrictions. However, if Pelham is a "B" level area, then the kids in Pelham should be part of a bigger region for A, AA, etc. Looking at a map, make that area part of St Catherines region if that is the AA or A "center". The kid then making the St Catherines AA team should not count as one of the 3 out of area players.

Something similar to NYC public schools. A student is zoned for a specific school. Each school is part of a district. Each borough has several districts (except Staten Island). So, the zoned school is their "B" team. Their AA team would be for the entire borough. Their A team would be for everyone in the district. If you are an "A" player but your district happens to be very strong for your age group and you dont make the team, then you tryout for another district as one of their 3 "imports".

Edit: Could also see this rule (at least around here if it was a thing) causing many families to randomly "move" to another location. Maybe "move-in" with a relative who lived in an A or AA center.

 

[patnyrnyg]

In Canada tryouts are in September going into the season, not at the end of last season for the next fall. The assumption is that a player may develop alot in the 6 months between the end of one year and the start of the next.

I understand, but they can still be spread out. First week of September- AAA, 2nd week,-AA and so forth.

Note: I am not crazy about the idea of trying out in March for the next year. But, I understand the logic. Secondly, very rare that a kid who is Low-A in March will jump to AAA by September. Plus, not as if rosters lock. Last 2 years my daughter's team picked up a player in August. We have another kid who was invited down to practice next week for the coach to have a look. Parents were against travel back in March, but may give in. I didn't play hockey as a kid, but some friends did. I asked them when my daughter got involved and they said tryouts were in August and September. This would have been mid-80s to early 90s.

 

[Slats432]

I understand, but they can still be spread out. First week of September- AAA, 2nd week,-AA and so forth.

Note: I am not crazy about the idea of trying out in March for the next year. But, I understand the logic. Secondly, very rare that a kid who is Low-A in March will jump to AAA by September. Plus, not as if rosters lock. Last 2 years my daughter's team picked up a player in August. We have another kid who was invited down to practice next week for the coach to have a look. Parents were against travel back in March, but may give in. I didn't play hockey as a kid, but some friends did. I asked them when my daughter got involved and they said tryouts were in August and September. This would have been mid-80s to early 90s.

It is very accelerated here. The U18AAA is a two day process, then you might get a 2nd tryout at U18AAA for a couple days then on to U18AA or U17AAA in a 3-4 day span.

 

[Squiffy]

In Canada tryouts are in September going into the season, not at the end of last season for the next fall. The assumption is that a player may develop alot in the 6 months between the end of one year and the start of the next.

Can’t speak for anywhere else, but not the case in Toronto. Competitive tryouts for GTHL done with by early May. Pretty sure that’s the case for at least the whole Greater Toronto area if not all Ontario.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Can’t speak for anywhere else, but not the case in Toronto. Competitive tryouts for GTHL done with by early May. Pretty sure that’s the case for at least the whole Greater Toronto area if not all Ontario.

Yeah where I am in Ontario, it’s a 3 week process that starts towards the end of April. Each level gets a week. They start with AAA and then move down the ladder. Kids are guaranteed 3 sessions, so first cuts are mid week.

That way a late cut can start trying out for AA on Monday after getting cut on the Saturday. The only disadvantage is having to play a lot of hockey consecutively I guess.

 

[Squiffy]

Yeah where I am in Ontario, it’s a 3 week process that starts towards the end of April. Each level gets a week. They start with AAA and then move down the ladder. Kids are guaranteed 3 sessions, so first cuts are mid week.

That way a late cut can start trying out for AA on Monday after getting cut on the Saturday. The only disadvantage is having to play a lot of hockey consecutively I guess.

Ya, that’s the system I know. I assume the select tryouts follow right after that.

I’m not here to say it’s the right or wrong way. I’m right in Toronto, the G teams aren’t locked by district, the scenario described early for the (I think) OMHA teams sounds lousy.

I’ll say that I’d rather know in May hypothetically if I’m scrambling to find a team than September a couple weeks from starting. I guess it works out mostly the same progressing through levels of tryouts, but we all know most teams are mostly made by March at worst, I’d just as soon not stress it all summer. Maybe elsewhere has actual real official tryouts but round here you’ll know who has how many spots to fill way before the official tryouts, they’re a joke.

 

[hockey17jp]

Tried out for AA as a kid around the same age as yours and only made the A team. Ended up being one of the best things for me.

Got way more playing time and gained way more confidence and ended up much much better off. Ended up making the AA team the next year but as a much better player.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Tried out for AA as a kid around the same age as yours and only made the A team. Ended up being one of the best things for me.

Got way more playing time and gained way more confidence and ended up much much better off. Ended up making the AA team the next year but as a much better player.

Definitely something to be said for making a team where you stand to be one of the higher end players vs being a hanger-on with the top team. Although I suppose there are exceptions when you are vying for a spot in a league where "just being there" opens a lot of doors even if you barely get any ice time (e.g. CHL).

 

[Yukon Joe]

Tried out for AA as a kid around the same age as yours and only made the A team. Ended up being one of the best things for me.

Got way more playing time and gained way more confidence and ended up much much better off. Ended up making the AA team the next year but as a much better player.

Yes, definitely something to be said for being a top player on a lower ranked team.

But really when it comes to minor hockey - there's no excuse for giving some kids significantly more ice time than others. This is all purely developmental, and nobody is going to care who wins some meaningless minor hockey game in mid-January.

I can see a slight argument for having a dedicated PP and PK units, but still - how is a kid going to get better at special teams if they do play special teams?

 

[Slats432]

Yes, definitely something to be said for being a top player on a lower ranked team.

But really when it comes to minor hockey - there's no excuse for giving some kids significantly more ice time than others. This is all purely developmental, and nobody is going to care who wins some meaningless minor hockey game in mid-January.

I can see a slight argument for having a dedicated PP and PK units, but still - how is a kid going to get better at special teams if they do play special teams?

I am assuming you are trying to say, how will a player get better at special teams if they don't play special teams.

As a coach, the PP and PK are the tools used to create internal competition and use as a reward. The best players on a team are usually the most talented, hard working etc.

That said, I over the course of the season try to find room for every player on one of the four units. In one of my previous seasons, having 17 skaters and 2 goalies, the line up was like this....

Period 1

PP1
7-5-16-17-19
PP2
10-21-26-14-18
PK1
4-15-14-17
PK2
5-27-19-12

Period 2

PP1
21-5-15-16-14
PP2
10-9-27-4-19
PK1
4-21-14-17
PK2
9-20-18-19

And said whichever groups had the best period, that is how we would set the 3rd. As you can see, every player did get some opportunity. But something to keep in mind, there are some players at the bottom of the line up that haven't earned or performed well enough to earn that spot.

If you line up some guys that still need to develop on a PP that just ends up being shot down the ice all the time, how are you developing those players?

I would generally tell players you earn your special teams by your 5 on 5 play. The world isn't fair. The world rewards performance. If you want something, go earn it.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Re-reading this thread I was reminded of one potential down-side.

Now this might be particular just to Edmonton - this is the only area I have experience in. But here at least the AA/AAA tryouts are separate from the club level evaluations. Different organizations, different evaluators.

So the potential downside is this - your kid is a very late cut from the AA level. Kids are pretty resilient, but even the best are bound to be sad and upset if they're cut. But once you are cut you have to immediately move over to the club evaluations. The club evaluations don't care that you were trying out for AA, in fact the club evaluations may have already started. So now you run the risk that you either don't get seen as much, or at all, or if you have a bad performance due to being frustrated at being a late cut - and now you slide all the way from being a late round AA cut down to something like Tier 4.

Saw this happen last year to a goalie - late cut, but because of AA tryouts he was never seen in club scrimmages, so for some reason they put him in Tier 5. His dad was pretty upset.

AA/AAA tryouts are supposed to be finished before clubs do their process, but sometimes they seem to drag it out for the last cuts.

So they're doing it slightly different this year. Now the AA/AAA tryouts are starting at the same time as the club level evaluations.

So one day my kid as a AAA evaluation scrimmage that ends at 4:15pm. We then need to hustle over to a different rink where has has his timed skate for club evaluations at 6:40pm the same day.

So either he's going to be good and warmed up - or he's going to be really tired. We shall see.

 

[DJB]

My son just did a B tryout in the spring (for play in the fall). It was only $50 so we really had nothing to lose. I was kind of surprised to see that there were a lot of kids who were not even close to the level my son plays trying out as well, so I guess the “nothing to lose” mantra is a powerful one.

So now the fun part. My son had a heck of a tryout and it didn’t seem to matter at all. All of the incumbents made it after rarely suiting up and the 2 spots available went to kids based on previous seasons’ work at lower levels. It was all predetermined. One of the kids in particular, was absolutely invisible in the scrimmages (due to skills not translating at a higher level).

If someone had have been up front with us and said, “Hey we’re giving the spots to these two kids because they’ve paid their dues”, I probably would’ve been okay with it. But they went ahead with this farce of a “tryout”.

There might be one positive that came out of it. My son knows that he can hang at that level and produce, so I hope that boosts his confidence going into next season.

Welcome to minor hockey. Not the quality of the player but who knows who

 

[Slats432]

Welcome to minor hockey. Not the quality of the player but who knows who

This is not the case in most levels or associations. There are obviously some bad actors, but the norm in my experience is the cream always rises to the top.

 

[DJB]

This is not the case in most levels or associations. There are obviously some bad actors, but the norm in my experience is the cream always rises to the top.

Where I am in Canada it’s quite political.


Yes the best players make it but usually players at the low end of the roster are the ones affected by politics

 

[Slats432]

Where I am in Canada it’s quite political.


Yes the best players make it but usually players at the low end of the roster are the ones affected by politics

And when my son got cut from U13AA, it was political in my mind to some extent. But I told him, I thought he was good enough to make it, but I thought he had two excellent skates, two ok skates and one bad skate. If he wants to not get cut, don't leave it to chance. Have 5 excellent skates. He never got cut again. (Except by the Regina Pats as a 16 year old, but I don't count that one. )

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Where I am in Canada it’s quite political.


Yes the best players make it but usually players at the low end of the roster are the ones affected by politics

Yeah this is what I noticed at my son’s last tryout. Of the incumbents, there were probably about 5 noticeably amazing forwards (out of 9), and 2 noticeably amazing defenders. The goalies were both really good.

I’m convinced though, that our top line the level below would beat the worst 5 players on that team. Smallish defenders that lost puck battles. Some kids that may have been in shape 3 years ago, but that was no longer the case, etc.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Where I am in Canada it’s quite political.

Yes the best players make it but usually players at the low end of the roster are the ones affected by politics

So I think I quoted one of my kid's coaches before - "make it so they can't say no".

Yes - those at the top will make it no matter what. The cuts at the end though - it's harder to say.

There's a positive, and a negative, way to look at it. On the positive side - if a coach knows a kid, knows they'll be a hard worker, be a positive influence in the locker room, maybe they do take that kid over another kid who is simply an unknown. Will they take a kid over someone who probably is slightly better, but is known to have "off-ice issues". There's a lot of speculation around one kid in my son's try-outs who gossip (for what that's worth) says has those kind of issues - not going into further details because it's not my kid.

On a more neutral side - I think we've benefitted in the past that as parents we're "no drama" parents, do lots of volunteering, that kind of thing. Which is maybe unfair to another kid whose parents just can't contribute as much (and has nothing to do with the kids), but at least is kind of understandable.

Or yes - are they going to take one kid because they're friends with the parents, or they know the parents will donate a lot of money, or based on what teams the kid played on previously. That's pretty hard to spin as a positive, even if it's a little bit understandable.

But then I come back to my first line - make it so you can't say no. Don't just be on the bubble. Control what you can control.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

So I think I quoted one of my kid's coaches before - "make it so they can't say no".

Yes - those at the top will make it no matter what. The cuts at the end though - it's harder to say.

There's a positive, and a negative, way to look at it. On the positive side - if a coach knows a kid, knows they'll be a hard worker, be a positive influence in the locker room, maybe they do take that kid over another kid who is simply an unknown. Will they take a kid over someone who probably is slightly better, but is known to have "off-ice issues". There's a lot of speculation around one kid in my son's try-outs who gossip (for what that's worth) says has those kind of issues - not going into further details because it's not my kid.

On a more neutral side - I think we've benefitted in the past that as parents we're "no drama" parents, do lots of volunteering, that kind of thing. Which is maybe unfair to another kid whose parents just can't contribute as much (and has nothing to do with the kids), but at least is kind of understandable.

Or yes - are they going to take one kid because they're friends with the parents, or they know the parents will donate a lot of money, or based on what teams the kid played on previously. That's pretty hard to spin as a positive, even if it's a little bit understandable.

But then I come back to my first line - make it so you can't say no. Don't just be on the bubble. Control what you can control.

So the biggest problem with “make it so they can’t say no” is that you need to play against better players to develop. If my kid played House League this year and absolutely demolished it, he wouldn’t learn anything about what’s expected of a AA player nor would he be on the ice 5 times a week for power skating.

These things get set in stone from a young age and then the kids play for years together. They do the same drills every week that will eventually show up in tryouts.

I feel like maybe guys like you and Slats don’t notice stuff like this as much, because you probably have had your kids in hockey since age 3 and play prominent roles in your respective organizations.

There’s a rival hockey club starting in our area that I find really intriguing. They claim to be anti politics and pro development. Thinking something like that wouldn’t exist if this wasn’t a shared experience. Too bad my kid hates the idea (doesn’t want to leave his friends).