Advice: To try out or not to try out

[Yukon Joe]

We seem to have a good system here, in which Rep tryouts are in May and the evaluations for everything else are in September. In May when the kids are finishing up their seasons is really when they’re at their best hockey-wise. There’s always a lot of rust in the fall. The only downside is that sometimes the choices in the fall for our Select level (level below Rep) are based on reputation and or how far kids went in Rep tryouts.

I mean there's pros and cons to every system.

At first thought the idea of try-outs in May would seem to preclude any chance of working hard in the summer to improve.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

I mean there's pros and cons to every system.

At first thought the idea of try-outs in May would seem to preclude any chance of working hard in the summer to improve.

We’re in a smaller town and I’m not so crazy about our summer options in terms of power skating etc. My son has about 3 week long hockey camps, plays soccer and gets out on rollerblades in the neighbourhood/shoots on a net in our driveway. We’ll go away camping or on various family vacations for about 3 weeks this summer.

Next year, by comparison, he’ll be on the ice 5 days a week practicing and playing against his peers on real ice. I don’t think there’s any substitute for that. My son is a late bloomer so it’s especially true in his case. He needs that real game experience.

You might be right though when it comes to a certain age and experience level, getting in the gym everyday or dry land training. Also I would imagine a big city like Edmonton has a lot of great summer options to stay on the ice. Even what my son did on rollerblades last year positioned him really well in the fall. It’s definitely a chance to tell which kids are truly dedicated or not.

 

[Slats432]

It is far more fun to be the big fish in a small pond...

Put him in a tier where he can shine

Not sure about this advice. Trying out for elite hockey has way more benefit than downside. And the parents don't put him in a tier, his play puts him in a tier. If he gets released, then he evaluates at the community/federation level and gets placed in a tier equivalent to his skill level.

I am not sure why a parent whose child is a good player would not want them to tryout against strong players. If my child was a mid or low tier player, then I wouldn't but if my child was close, then I would without any hesitation.

 

[krown]

Thanks for the advice and wisdom. I can see my son heading down that path some day. He's good enough that I can see him striving for something more competitive than local minor hockey, but it's definitely not a given that he will make AA, let alone AAA. And as you point out, he may enjoy being a key cog on a A1 team vs. a spare part on a AA team.

The only downside in this is that he might get pigeonholed for the rest of his career as an A1 player rather than a AA player. This has happened to many kids in our minor hockey association, mine included. My son has been playing hockey at this association since he was 7 years old as a goalie. When he first tried out for Atom (U11) he was placed on the A3 team (I'm in BC where the rep teams are tiered A1, A2, A3, A4, house/rec). That's fine... first year in rep you gotta earn it. His second year, after the association goalie coach rated him the best goalie in evaluations during tryouts, he was placed A3 again. Needless to say we all weren't very happy about it. But whatever. Work hard, earn your stripes the next year for U13. Year after? A4. Year after A3? First year U15 (last year) A2. Throughout this time, his goalie coaches can't understand why he's being pushed down the depth chart like that. I'm not here to say he's the next MAF, but he definitely in the convo for top 2-3 in his age group at his association. We decided to try out for an academy team for next year, and he made it, so we've left the association.

I firmly believe he was pigeonholed at an early age, and it took fresh eyes to see where he really stood.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Interesting comments and insights in this thread.

One thing I am curious about is the "summer hard work" angle. I get teenagers working hard in the gym in the offseason, but my kid just turned 11... his "training", so to speak, consists of playing other sports like lower-level organized baseball and soccer, doing a couple of hockey camps, etc.

Is it expected that a 10 year old is supposed to be regularly doing dry land training like lifting weights, running, etc.? When I think back to when I was a kid, I don't remember anyone doing that stuff until maybe the late stages of junior high, certainly no one that I know was doing it in elementary school...

 

[krown]

I've been told any weights in the gym aren't beneficial until he's about 13 or 14. Just keep him active whether it be baseball, soccer, mountain biking, etc. Spring hockey and roller hockey seem to be the natural "off season" sports.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

I feel there’s also a component where your kid has to really want to do it. I have conversations with my son all the time in which he expresses wanting to get better, and then I tell him what it actually takes, and he’s out. Eat chicken instead of pizza? Heck no. Run with me down in the park to improve endurance? Not into that. So maybe when he’s older for sure he might want that, but right now I’m not going to chase him around barking orders like a drill sergeant that’s for sure.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Not sure about this advice. Trying out for elite hockey has way more benefit than downside. And the parents don't put him in a tier, his play puts him in a tier. If he gets released, then he evaluates at the community/federation level and gets placed in a tier equivalent to his skill level.

I am not sure why a parent whose child is a good player would not want them to tryout against strong players. If my child was a mid or low tier player, then I wouldn't but if my child was close, then I would without any hesitation.

So from reading some of your previous posts I know you sound fair and reasonable, and I’d be willing to bet your coaching evaluations are spot on. And one of the best points in this thread is when you said something to the effect of “try out so that your association gets to know your kid and he gains a reputation for the future”.

But I don’t believe this sort of idealism is practiced everywhere. I think sometimes the parents/families get buddy buddy, and I’ve just seen some weird stuff. Not just with my son but with others as well. Seems like a lot of these teams just get set in stone at early age groups and then are extremely resistant to change.

I know it’s been said to “make it so they can’t say no” in a tryout, but does that mean being the best skater on the ice, or noticeably being better than say, the bottom three forward incumbents? In our organization, I’d bet that our top Select line (t4) would probably beat our worst Rep line (t3) in a scrimmage. But my son loves his friends there so I don’t make waves pointing that out. It is what it is.

 

[Slats432]

So from reading some of your previous posts I know you sound fair and reasonable, and I’d be willing to bet your coaching evaluations are spot on. And one of the best points in this thread is when you said something to the effect of “try out so that your association gets to know your kid and he gains a reputation for the future”.

But I don’t believe this sort of idealism is practiced everywhere. I think sometimes the parents/families get buddy buddy, and I’ve just seen some weird stuff. Not just with my son but with others as well. Seems like a lot of these teams just get set in stone at early age groups and then are extremely resistant to change.

I know it’s been said to “make it so they can’t say no” in a tryout, but does that mean being the best skater on the ice, or noticeably being better than say, the bottom three forward incumbents? In our organization, I’d bet that our top Select line (t4) would probably beat our worst Rep line (t3) in a scrimmage. But my son loves his friends there so I don’t make waves pointing that out. It is what it is.

Tons to unpack here, and thank you for the compliments.

Idealism isn't practiced everywhere. In tier hockey about 13 years ago, I saw an organization's president's son tiered higher than some more deserving players. I don't say it doesn't happen.

And the factors in the club level are many. I have cut better skilled players simply because they were dicks. (One player we cut a few years ago got in a pushing match with a teammate in the dressing room and exemplified bad attitude.)

I cut a nice kid last season because he had a penchant for taking bad penalties. (Couldn't control his aggression)

I (And personally feel it was a mistake) cut a kid because my entire staff and director had consensus that they didn't like the player. I liked him because he was more physical and had a great shot but sometimes lacked footspeed. Good kid though.

Then there is a stylistic bias, and it even changes from year to year. Three years ago, I said, I was taking skill. I can get a skilled player to bang a body but I can't get a banger to produce the same kind of offense.

Now, I am more inclined to have 20 slots, filled with passers, shooters, bangers, fast players, grinders, and try to find the secret combination.

Then it also depends on what players are in the tryout pool. If I only have one big defensive dman trying out, and 12 others that are small and skilled, I would sure hate to be the 6-7-8th most skilled, because that defensive dman is likely getting a long look.

When it comes to tryout advice, and saying make it so they have to take you, that means to me identify a role and fill it for the coach. Just do it better than everyone else.

 

[DaveG]

Interesting comments and insights in this thread.

One thing I am curious about is the "summer hard work" angle. I get teenagers working hard in the gym in the offseason, but my kid just turned 11... his "training", so to speak, consists of playing other sports like lower-level organized baseball and soccer, doing a couple of hockey camps, etc.

Is it expected that a 10 year old is supposed to be regularly doing dry land training like lifting weights, running, etc.? When I think back to when I was a kid, I don't remember anyone doing that stuff until maybe the late stages of junior high, certainly no one that I know was doing it in elementary school...

that age probably not, and mostly best bet is to do stuff that'll keep his fitness level up while minimizing injury risk. Different sport but during the off-seasons for soccer when I was coming up my coaches were all about the amount of swimming I was doing as long as I did a decent amount of skills work as well. Ended up being in better shape than most of the kids I was going up against and finding out I was a pretty good swimmer in the process.

 

[JMCx4]

... But man - I'm already getting butterflies in my stomach and we're like 6 weeks plus out from U15AAA tryouts (and U13AA tryouts). It's not a fun process. But I promise not to whine here if either of my kids don't make it.

You WILL be held to that promise, Dad.

 

[timekeep]

Well of course - nobody wants to have a kid tiered incorrectly, and everybody is trying to make sure that doesn't happen.

I've just noticed this small possibility of a kid good enough to be a late cut at a AA/AAA level, but then slide.

As I understand it the same risk is at the highest levels. Kid is a very late cut at AAA. He gets moved down to AA, but at this point the team is mostly set. The AAA late cut isn't guaranteed a spot at AA. He gets a tryout or two but if he doesn't impress he can keep sliding down to club hockey, again despite having enough skill to be a late AAA cut. I think this can even happen in junior hockey as well, although I have no experience there.

No idea what the solution is - probably isn't one. I don't think you can guarantee a late cut a spot one level down.

That has been issue in the Edmonton/Alberta system for a very long time. I don't get how the last cut from a AAA Midget team can't find a AA team and is put in tier 1 or lower. I have seen almost every year. Happens at Midget/U18 due to players at WHL or AJHL camps because they are hanging around waiting for NHL players to return.

I have always felt that the Alberta leagues start too soon. But there are other issues to with signing the players or bailing for an academy team now.

 

[Slats432]

That has been issue in the Edmonton/Alberta system for a very long time. I don't get how the last cut from a AAA Midget team can't find a AA team and is put in tier 1 or lower. I have seen almost every year. Happens at Midget/U18 due to players at WHL or AJHL camps because they are hanging around waiting for NHL players to return.

I have always felt that the Alberta leagues start too soon. But there are other issues to with signing the players or bailing for an academy team now.

I don't know where these kids are, but I can't remember one last cut (Skater) U18AAA to ever not play AA and go down to Tier 1. My son was in the program, and I have coached since, so at least the last 8 years or so, I don't recall of a single instance.

Goalies are different but even then, I can remember kids getting released from AA and getting shuffled down but never a AAA last cut doing down to federation.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I don't know where these kids are, but I can't remember one last cut (Skater) U18AAA to ever not play AA and go down to Tier 1. My son was in the program, and I have coached since, so at least the last 8 years or so, I don't recall of a single instance.

Goalies are different but even then, I can remember kids getting released from AA and getting shuffled down but never a AAA last cut doing down to federation.

So I'm just a hockey dad. I'd heard it expressed to me as a risk that can happen - I don't personally know a kid that happened to. Like I said the worst I knew was a U13AA goalie cut who wound up being placed quite low in federation.

Generally speaking I think my kids have always been evaluated and tiered fairly correctly. You can maybe quibble around the edges but nothing outrageously unfair. I have a thread around here somewhere complaining about my kid's evaluation - from when he was SEVEN - but that's because my kid was only seven and didn't "get" what they were looking for or why it mattered, and even then by the end of the process he wound up on an appropriate team (and that kid is 14 now, so a long time ago).

 

[Slats432]

So I'm just a hockey dad. I'd heard it expressed to me as a risk that can happen - I don't personally know a kid that happened to. Like I said the worst I knew was a U13AA goalie cut who wound up being placed quite low in federation.

Generally speaking I think my kids have always been evaluated and tiered fairly correctly. You can maybe quibble around the edges but nothing outrageously unfair. I have a thread around here somewhere complaining about my kid's evaluation - from when he was SEVEN - but that's because my kid was only seven and didn't "get" what they were looking for or why it mattered, and even then by the end of the process he wound up on an appropriate team (and that kid is 14 now, so a long time ago).

Read the guy I quoted.

I don't get how the last cut from a AAA Midget team can't find a AA team and is put in tier 1 or lower. I have seen almost every year.

I would like to submit, I have watched tons of tryouts with multiple organizations. I have never seen a AAA skater not make a AA team. Let alone seen it every year.

I do remember once in Edmonton though a bunch of guys that were cut from one AAA team didn't want to play for the AA coach and they all went to Tier 1 and roasted the league.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I’ve seen it happen a lot in Ontario. Let me explain.

Many AAA organizations within the residency-restricted Ontario Minor Hockey Association operate as “zone” organizations. They do not have AA or A teams, just AAA, and their players come from all the smaller organizations within their zones.

So let me give you an example. The Southern Tier Admirals are a residency-restricted AAA OMHA organization. The players who tryout come from about 10 distinct minor hockey associations, the majority of which are below the “A” level (Port Colborne, Thorold, Pelham, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Fort Erie, Wainfleet, etc.).

So a kid from, say, Pelham is the last cut from Southern Tier’s AAA tryouts. Pelham is a “B” centre. Because of residency restrictions, the only way the kid can avoid playing B-level rep. hockey for Pelham is if he can make a AA or A centre team as a “non-resident player.” Here’s the catch: each AA and A centre is only allowed to sign a maximum of three non-resident players. Further, the kid from Pelham who was the hypothetical “last cut” from AAA Southern Tier is only allowed to tryout for ONE AA or A centre team, and he is competing for one of just three available spots. To be clear: he can tryout for ONE and ONLY ONE AA or A team, and those teams can only sign THREE non-resident players.

How does this often play out? About a decade ago, I was coaching a AA team in the region and, I kid you not, the two best goalies and four best skaters at tryouts were all very late cuts from the three (fairly) local AAA organizations. That’s 6 excellent hockey players and I could only sign 3 because of the non-resident player restrictions. Worse, the 3 I had to cut would all have to play for very small organizations in low-level leagues. It was truly gut-wrenching — 3 good kids and excellent hockey players who were on the cusp of playing AAA hockey would, just a few weeks later, find themselves on CC or B organizations. I couldn’t even sign them as affiliate players. One of the boys I had to cut was a goalie who played 6 periods in tryout games and didn’t allow a single goal. Try explaining that to the kid and his parents.

So, depending on the part of Canada we’re dealing with, lots of late cuts from AAA end up playing multiple levels down every year. It’s not right — a kid has no control over what little town he lives in — but it happens all the time.

 

[Slats432]

I’ve seen it happen a lot in Ontario. Let me explain.

Many AAA organizations within the residency-restricted Ontario Minor Hockey Association operate as “zone” organizations. They do not have AA or A teams, just AAA, and their players come from all the smaller organizations within their zones.

So let me give you an example. The Southern Tier Admirals are a residency-restricted AAA OMHA organization. The players who tryout come from about 10 distinct minor hockey associations, the majority of which are below the “A” level (Port Colborne, Thorold, Pelham, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Fort Erie, Wainfleet, etc.).

So a kid from, say, Pelham is the last cut from Southern Tier’s AAA tryouts. Pelham is a “B” centre. Because of residency restrictions, the only way the kid can avoid playing B-level rep. hockey for Pelham is if he can make a AA or A centre team as a “non-resident player.” Here’s the catch: each AA and A centre is only allowed to sign a maximum of three non-resident players. Further, the kid from Pelham who was the hypothetical “last cut” from AAA Southern Tier is only allowed to tryout for ONE AA or A centre team, and he is competing for one of just three available spots. To be clear: he can tryout for ONE and ONLY ONE AA or A team, and those teams can only sign THREE non-resident players.

How does this often play out? About a decade ago, I was coaching a AA team in the region and, I kid you not, the two best goalies and four best skaters at tryouts were all very late cuts from the three (fairly) local AAA organizations. That’s 6 excellent hockey players and I could only sign 3 because of the non-resident player restrictions. Worse, the 3 I had to cut would all have to play for very small organizations in low-level leagues. It was truly gut-wrenching — 3 good kids and excellent hockey players who were on the cusp of playing AAA hockey would, just a few weeks later, find themselves on CC or B organizations. I couldn’t even sign them as affiliate players. One of the boys I had to cut was a goalie who played 6 periods in tryout games and didn’t allow a single goal. Try explaining that to the kid and his parents.

So, depending on the part of Canada we’re dealing with, lots of late cuts from AAA end up playing multiple levels down every year. It’s not right — a kid has no control over what little town he lives in — but it happens all the time.

This is not the same situation in Edmonton. If you tryout for a AAA organization and get released, you move down to your resident AA, but can ask for a 2nd tryout for another organization. If you are released from your 2nd AAA organization, you go back to your AA organization. If you get released you can get a 2nd tryout at another AA organization.

For a kid in Edmonton to get late cut from AAA and play community hockey, they would need to get cut 3 more times. Skaters, I don't think I have ever seen it. Goalies are strange because in the process when teams are made up in community hockey, timing gets involved and I have seen goalies play in mid tiers (4-6) because the goalies are already set in tiers 1-3. A rare occasion but it has happened.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Interesting comments and insights in this thread.

One thing I am curious about is the "summer hard work" angle. I get teenagers working hard in the gym in the offseason, but my kid just turned 11... his "training", so to speak, consists of playing other sports like lower-level organized baseball and soccer, doing a couple of hockey camps, etc.

Is it expected that a 10 year old is supposed to be regularly doing dry land training like lifting weights, running, etc.? When I think back to when I was a kid, I don't remember anyone doing that stuff until maybe the late stages of junior high, certainly no one that I know was doing it in elementary school...

So went back through this entire thread and saw this post I hadn't responded to.

I think there are several entire threads around here about how minor hockey and kid's development is vastly different then it was when you or I were kids. 30 years ago absolutely the idea was that when the hockey season was over in March you put down your stick and went and played baseball or whatever, and didn't lace up the skates until September.

But I can tell you now, in the year of our Lord 2024, that no kid who has aspirations of playing really high level hockey does that (or at least parents who has aspirations of their kid playing high level hockey).

I'll tell you what our off season is like. Once the regular hockey season is over in March we start up with spring hockey. That runs April-May. June and July are mostly off the ice, but this week (last week of July) we're into hockey camps. Those will run right though August until it's time to start tryouts.

In terms of dryland - yes as I understand it younger kids should not be lifting weights, but doing cardio and body-weight exercises can be useful. And then once they do hit their teens doing some weight training is also useful. My one kid is hitting the gym several times per week. My other kid doesn't want to, so we don't make him - but I think he's going to have a much harder time to make a high level team.

And I'm telling you what my kids are doing, but all the other parents I know (who have kids wanting to make it to AAA/AA) are doing similar things.

Are there disadvantages to being so specialized so young? Yes. I definitely worry about burnout. I worry about injury from stressing the same joints and muscles for too much of the year. But we're "trying to keep up with the Jonses".

 

[jetsmooseice]

I think there are several entire threads around here about how minor hockey and kid's development is vastly different then it was when you or I were kids. 30 years ago absolutely the idea was that when the hockey season was over in March you put down your stick and went and played baseball or whatever, and didn't lace up the skates until September.

Spring hockey didn't exist back then as far as I am aware. But I will say, I remember even in the late 80s some of my friends' older brothers (still young though, maybe in the 10-12 age range) were going to summer hockey camps for a week or two. It was a thing back then. And we were working class, it wasn't something that only wealthy people were doing.

 

[patnyrnyg]

This is not the same situation in Edmonton. If you tryout for a AAA organization and get released, you move down to your resident AA, but can ask for a 2nd tryout for another organization. If you are released from your 2nd AAA organization, you go back to your AA organization. If you get released you can get a 2nd tryout at another AA organization.

For a kid in Edmonton to get late cut from AAA and play community hockey, they would need to get cut 3 more times. Skaters, I don't think I have ever seen it. Goalies are strange because in the process when teams are made up in community hockey, timing gets involved and I have seen goalies play in mid tiers (4-6) because the goalies are already set in tiers 1-3. A rare occasion but it has happened.

It was probably answered, but for AAA are the locked into one team first based on geography as their first tryout?

 

[Slats432]

In Edmonton there are geographic zones yes.

 

[timekeep]

I don't know where these kids are, but I can't remember one last cut (Skater) U18AAA to ever not play AA and go down to Tier 1. My son was in the program, and I have coached since, so at least the last 8 years or so, I don't recall of a single instance.

Goalies are different but even then, I can remember kids getting released from AA and getting shuffled down but never a AAA last cut doing down to federation.

It has happened in St Albert a couple of times in the past few years, maybe five years now as one was still called Bantam. I'm not naming names so don't ask. Saw it in Leduc, Sherwood Park and SSAC. And some can move to another org, but that is still bullshit. Good old Bobby O bullshit.

You're right, i exaggerated by saying every year but it happens too frequently. And I should not have limited to Midget only.

 

[Akrapovince]

It has happened in St Albert a couple of times in the past few years, maybe five years now as one was still called Bantam. I'm not naming names so don't ask. Saw it in Leduc, Sherwood Park and SSAC. And some can move to another org, but that is still bullshit. Good old Bobby O bullshit.

You're right, i exaggerated by saying every year but it happens too frequently. And I should not have limited to Midget only.

MLAC, U18 late cute from AAA and had to play Seera Tier 1. It happens all the time. Now I don’t know if that happens out of choice or necessity.

Then you have the AA late cuts that miss tier 1/2 tryouts and have to play in tier 3.

 

[oldunclehue]

Spring hockey didn't exist back then as far as I am aware. But I will say, I remember even in the late 80s some of my friends' older brothers (still young though, maybe in the 10-12 age range) were going to summer hockey camps for a week or two. It was a thing back then. And we were working class, it wasn't something that only wealthy people were doing.

I grew up in the 80's and 90's in Winnipeg. Around 1994ish I recall some of the first spring and summer programs coming out (Manitoba Mustangs, Winnipeg Jr Jets and Manitoba Polar Ice), I was asked to play but my parents couldn't afford it at the time. Almost all the guys I knew who played ended up hating competitive hockey by the age of 16 and decided to go to highschool sports.

I played AAA, CHL and Junior A, no one until the age of about 15-16 really started doing anything after the hockey season was over until about that age. The first real hockey focused program was Focus Fitness.

Now I have a son who is trying out for AAA, he plays spring and also does workouts with a hockey trainer. But he does about half of what some of the "elite" kids in our AAA area are doing. It's wild to me to see 13 year olds playing hockey year round, going to skating coaches, strength coaches, shooting coaches and even having advisors at this young age. I know of two that are going to a hockey academy this winter who are 13-14 years old, they don't take a week off the sport of hockey, driving in to Winnipeg every weekend and going to Vegas, Minneapolis, Toronto, Florida, Europe and many many more places yearly.....talented and good players, I just hope burn out factor doesn't hit them as it will be devastating to parents that spend that amount of money on a sport.


I was the OP, I still stand by the fact that turning sports into business at the minor age levels has created an unrealistic environment for most players. The rich folks can keep up with eachother and have an advantage in hockey development, much like every other sport now a days. For me its sad to see, I grew up in a poor community and parents that scraped by to make it work, but was able to make it to a decent level. Now you will almost never see that happen....it's just such a low chance of doing it unless you are willing to throw money at development outside of minor hockey programs.

 

[timekeep]

MLAC, U18 late cute from AAA and had to play Seera Tier 1. It happens all the time. Now I don’t know if that happens out of choice or necessity.

Then you have the AA late cuts that miss tier 1/2 tryouts and have to play in tier 3.

It's a bad system and they are losing some players. In saying that, there are lots of kids that could be playing at a higher level in football, volleyball or basketball if they would change sports.