Ticket/Attendance Discussion: The Sequel

[jetsmooseice]

That’s fair - I don’t live there so I cannot comment on that.

But a lot of the new immigrant demographics moving to Winnipeg at least, it will take a generation for them to latch on to the game. Those same demographics are big supporters of nhl teams in other markets especially in western Canada

It will happen, but it won't be overnight. I look at my kids' school which is extremely ethnically diverse, lots of immigrant kids and children of immigrants go there. The parents I talk to have zero interest in North American sports as a fan. But some of the kids do - a few of them play hockey, football, etc. and take an interest in the local teams. I'm sure some of them will grow up to be big Jets fans.

But the point is valid, people moving to Winnipeg largely aren't York or University of Ottawa graduates that are lifelong NHL fans. They're coming from the Philippines, Punjab or Pimicikamak and either don't care or don't have the means to buy Jets tickets. Which is fine, they have their own things going on. But their kids might become fans and ticket buyers, some day.

 

[wpg1]

12918 against the Avs, first place team playing a rival, kinda sad

From the looks of early on this season, it appears weekday crowds will be around 13k and weekends will bump that up. Tickets for Dallas tomorrow look almost sold out.

I'm going to assume like last season, attendance will continue to grow around the holidays and into the new year. Silver lining is we are significantly better than this time last year, and it looks like much of the league is below average attendance.

 

[jetsfan15]

From the looks of early on this season, it appears weekday crowds will be around 13k and weekends will bump that up. Tickets for Dallas tomorrow look almost sold out.

I'm going to assume like last season, attendance will continue to grow around the holidays and into the new year. Silver lining is we are significantly better than this time last year, and it looks like much of the league is below average attendance.

Yeah, my hope is it’ll get better during holiday season-onward. I went to a couple jets games this year already, but interestingly the games that I’ll be attending with my more extended group of friends that I often attend games with will be in the new year. We have 5 games lined up in January-March that we bought tickets to. For November, our outing is tomorrow for the football game. I wonder if there are approx 33k Winnipeg sports fans whose sport outing for the month is the football game (otherwise maybe they’d be buying a (or an additional, if already attending jets games) jets ticket for a game this month) but will quickly turn to jets games to fill those 2,000 seats per game once this upcoming weekend is done. Who knows. Based on last season, that is indeed what happened (whether that’s actually related to the Bombers’ playoff game, I don’t know though… just speculating).

 

[civic204]

Another huge change from the 3? seasons is that ST members can sell their seats on Ticketmaster below walk up prices. Anyone who wants is walkup ticket is likely buying from a ST member.

As a STM, I can buy discounted seats and flip them on TM and profit. I discovered this by accident when I couldn't attend a game. Does TN discourage this? Do they care? Is it just a perk of being a STM?

 

[voyageur]

I've heard from several people that the area around the arena has become much more sketchy in the past few years. I've lived in Calgary since 2022 and I have only been to I think 2 games in Winnipeg since moving here? Both games, I took the bus to the arena and basically needed to walk about 30 feet to the doors so I never noticed this.

Is that a "thing"?

The last game I went to I parked on the North side of the rink, where parking is free, and walked there and walked back. I am a mean enough looking guy that nobody gives me trouble, maybe asks for a smoke. I carriy a hockey puck for protection. I think there are some people who are intimidated by poor or in general native people, because they haven't seen them enough. Me I was talking to people about the game after outside the Quest Inn on the walk back. Just maybe a perception issue.

 

[MarkWheeler]

All I can speak for is myself, but I used to watch every game nearly religiously, and got to at least a few games a year. It’s over an hour drive one way, so it’s a decent commitment to go to a game for me.
Now I can hardly force myself to watch a game on TV, and can barely remember the last game I went to.
I think it’s a combination of many things.
Mainly I just can’t get any excitement going no matter how good they’re playing because I’d rather not get attached and get my hopes up for them to just collapse in the playoffs in humiliating fashion like they seem to do so often.
Another part of it is True North as an organization being so tone deaf for so long, doing so little to make it affordable, or even fun to attend a game. It’s painfully obvious even on TV how dull the atmosphere in there was the last few seasons. Then Chipman wants to guilt us into feeling like we’re the reason the team has attendance problems. A large part of me just doesn’t think he is the right person to be running this organization, and that just doesn’t make me keen to support the organization unfortunately.
As much as people want to pretend like it’s not, I know for a fact that going downtown is a huge deterrent for a lot of people. Especially rural people coming in from out of town.
That’s just the way it is to me anyways. I just can’t bring myself to get excited about a team rolling through the regular season when they’ve had one good playoff run in their 13 year history. And more often than not play like garbage in the playoffs. Which is a shame, because I really do want to be excited about them.

 

[Scheifele55]

21-1 in the last 22 regular season games...

If you cannot sell out the arena, then this team is destined to move.

 

[Scheifele55]

All I can speak for is myself, but I used to watch every game nearly religiously, and got to at least a few games a year. It’s over an hour drive one way, so it’s a decent commitment to go to a game for me.
Now I can hardly force myself to watch a game on TV, and can barely remember the last game I went to.
I think it’s a combination of many things.
Mainly I just can’t get any excitement going no matter how good they’re playing because I’d rather not get attached and get my hopes up for them to just collapse in the playoffs in humiliating fashion like they seem to do so often.
Another part of it is True North as an organization being so tone deaf for so long, doing so little to make it affordable, or even fun to attend a game. It’s painfully obvious even on TV how dull the atmosphere in there was the last few seasons. Then Chipman wants to guilt us into feeling like we’re the reason the team has attendance problems. A large part of me just doesn’t think he is the right person to be running this organization, and that just doesn’t make me keen to support the organization unfortunately.
As much as people want to pretend like it’s not, I know for a fact that going downtown is a huge deterrent for a lot of people. Especially rural people coming in from out of town.
That’s just the way it is to me anyways. I just can’t bring myself to get excited about a team rolling through the regular season when they’ve had one good playoff run in their 13 year history. And more often than not play like garbage in the playoffs. Which is a shame, because I really do want to be excited about them.

I am sorry if this sounds bad, but your message comes off as being nothing but excuses. No team in Canada has won the Stanley Cup for over 30 years, Vancouver, Ottawa, Toronto have droughts over 50 years. It took Chicago Cubs 108 years to win a World Series yet they have loyal fans.

What you have written is honestly the same excuse filled rant that was made 30 years ago when the Winnipeg Jets were about to leave Winnipeg.

"Far distance to travel to St James, don't want to get attached and get my hopes up for them to just collapse in the playoffs in humiliating fashion like they seem to do so often, Winnipeg Enterprises as an organization being so tone deaf, doing so little to make it affordable (yet tickets were as little as $7) Then Shenkarow wants to guilt us into feeling like we're the reason the team has attendance problems. I know for a fact that going to St James is a huge deterrent for a lot of people."

 

[voyageur]

All I can speak for is myself, but I used to watch every game nearly religiously, and got to at least a few games a year. It’s over an hour drive one way, so it’s a decent commitment to go to a game for me.
Now I can hardly force myself to watch a game on TV, and can barely remember the last game I went to.
I think it’s a combination of many things.
Mainly I just can’t get any excitement going no matter how good they’re playing because I’d rather not get attached and get my hopes up for them to just collapse in the playoffs in humiliating fashion like they seem to do so often.
Another part of it is True North as an organization being so tone deaf for so long, doing so little to make it affordable, or even fun to attend a game. It’s painfully obvious even on TV how dull the atmosphere in there was the last few seasons. Then Chipman wants to guilt us into feeling like we’re the reason the team has attendance problems. A large part of me just doesn’t think he is the right person to be running this organization, and that just doesn’t make me keen to support the organization unfortunately.
As much as people want to pretend like it’s not, I know for a fact that going downtown is a huge deterrent for a lot of people. Especially rural people coming in from out of town.
That’s just the way it is to me anyways. I just can’t bring myself to get excited about a team rolling through the regular season when they’ve had one good playoff run in their 13 year history. And more often than not play like garbage in the playoffs. Which is a shame, because I really do want to be excited about them.

I think there is a common fatigue like anything in life these days. It's hard to believe how much energy there was in the building for the like of GST, and some really bad teams that fed off crowd energy.

The first playoff year was nuts in the building. But NHL hockey was still a novelty. Watching the odd superstar in preseason, or catch a couple of Canucks on their way up was different. We were in the big show. Now it's an economic reality that going to game is more expensive than it used to be, unless you pick your weakest, least popular teams. Tier pricing is something every owner profits on. But it's funny that the NHL is tone deaf to what fans see as real rivalries. Everybody passes through,, you see Minny or Chicago the same amount times as San Jose in some years. And Calgary, Edmonton as often as Carolina in others.

The NHL doesn't market its stars enough. I imagine watching Mackinnon play live is quite the show. I haven't seen it yet. When I bought in I always got stuck with St. Louis. I came to hate David Perron.

Covid killed the hockey experience for me. This is my first year back, in 5. I notice that seniors were regular customers at Jets game as the years wore on, and they are probably not in an economic position now to pick up that slack, though having your house paid off definitely puts you in a better economic position.

This team isn't going to be good forever, so it's probably the best time to enjoy it, if you can afford it.

 

[ryanshope]

Hey everyone- long time lurker, first time poster. I was a season ticket holder for many years- we got in as a group in the inaugural year. I estimate I have spent probably upwards of 65K over the last (is it 12 or 13 seasons now?) including a lot of money for playoff games. I no longer go to games and I echo a lot of the reasons as stated here for my own departure. The nail in the coffin, unfortunately for me, was two factors: 1) the game experience relative to the cost and 2) the marketing/account reps. So, when the pandemic hit, one of our shareholders lost their job. I couldn't afford our season tickets myself- we were in section 123 for many years and then moved to 107. When I plead my case to TNSE, they basically threatened legal action even though we had asked to defer for one year and then we would resume our season ticket agreement. So, that last year, we moved from 107 to the cheapest seats we would find in 321 and I barely went to any games. I couldn't resell them and basically gave them away. What was really frustrating that last season was that people were getting tickets for half the price we were paying for season tickets and we had no perks aside from the lousy discounts on concessions.

Last year I went to 3 games- the first playoff game because my Mom really wanted to attend a playoff whiteout and I went as a guest for the other two. I now work two jobs because the cost of living has sky-rocketed and I see clients on Tuesday and Thursday evenings- mostly when a lot of Jets games are at home. I'm going to be honest- it will take a lot to win me back. I found TNSE completely tone deaf to what people were going through during the pandemic (I'm in health care myself) and the very thought of legal action left a VERY sour taste in my mouth. I will say, I have somewhat switched my priorities towards the Bombers and have season tickets with them now and am opting to go to the Bomber game tomorrow even though I had an offer to go to the Jets game as well. Attendance does seem to pick up once the Bomber season is over, but right now, I much prefer a Bomber game to a Jets game.

 

[MarkWheeler]

Hey everyone- long time lurker, first time poster. I was a season ticket holder for many years- we got in as a group in the inaugural year. I estimate I have spent probably upwards of 65K over the last (is it 12 or 13 seasons now?) including a lot of money for playoff games. I no longer go to games and I echo a lot of the reasons as stated here for my own departure. The nail in the coffin, unfortunately for me, was two factors: 1) the game experience relative to the cost and 2) the marketing/account reps. So, when the pandemic hit, one of our shareholders lost their job. I couldn't afford our season tickets myself- we were in section 123 for many years and then moved to 107. When I plead my case to TNSE, they basically threatened legal action even though we had asked to defer for one year and then we would resume our season ticket agreement. So, that last year, we moved from 107 to the cheapest seats we would find in 321 and I barely went to any games. I couldn't resell them and basically gave them away. What was really frustrating that last season was that people were getting tickets for half the price we were paying for season tickets and we had no perks aside from the lousy discounts on concessions.

Last year I went to 3 games- the first playoff game because my Mom really wanted to attend a playoff whiteout and I went as a guest for the other two. I now work two jobs because the cost of living has sky-rocketed and I see clients on Tuesday and Thursday evenings- mostly when a lot of Jets games are at home. I'm going to be honest- it will take a lot to win me back. I found TNSE completely tone deaf to what people were going through during the pandemic (I'm in health care myself) and the very thought of legal action left a VERY sour taste in my mouth. I will say, I have somewhat switched my priorities towards the Bombers and have season tickets with them now and am opting to go to the Bomber game tomorrow even though I had an offer to go to the Jets game as well. Attendance does seem to pick up once the Bomber season is over, but right now, I much prefer a Bomber game to a Jets game.

Same.

 

[Bender Duster]

Hey everyone- long time lurker, first time poster. I was a season ticket holder for many years- we got in as a group in the inaugural year. I estimate I have spent probably upwards of 65K over the last (is it 12 or 13 seasons now?) including a lot of money for playoff games. I no longer go to games and I echo a lot of the reasons as stated here for my own departure. The nail in the coffin, unfortunately for me, was two factors: 1) the game experience relative to the cost and 2) the marketing/account reps. So, when the pandemic hit, one of our shareholders lost their job. I couldn't afford our season tickets myself- we were in section 123 for many years and then moved to 107. When I plead my case to TNSE, they basically threatened legal action even though we had asked to defer for one year and then we would resume our season ticket agreement. So, that last year, we moved from 107 to the cheapest seats we would find in 321 and I barely went to any games. I couldn't resell them and basically gave them away. What was really frustrating that last season was that people were getting tickets for half the price we were paying for season tickets and we had no perks aside from the lousy discounts on concessions.

Last year I went to 3 games- the first playoff game because my Mom really wanted to attend a playoff whiteout and I went as a guest for the other two. I now work two jobs because the cost of living has sky-rocketed and I see clients on Tuesday and Thursday evenings- mostly when a lot of Jets games are at home. I'm going to be honest- it will take a lot to win me back. I found TNSE completely tone deaf to what people were going through during the pandemic (I'm in health care myself) and the very thought of legal action left a VERY sour taste in my mouth. I will say, I have somewhat switched my priorities towards the Bombers and have season tickets with them now and am opting to go to the Bomber game tomorrow even though I had an offer to go to the Jets game as well. Attendance does seem to pick up once the Bomber season is over, but right now, I much prefer a Bomber game to a Jets game.

Welcome to the forum and great first post. I think your experience is very similar to that of a lot of fans. There is a huge affordability issue going on for a lot of people right now and Jets tickets are obviously lower priority than food, mortgage, gas, etc. It hasn't helped that the TNSE reps were crap to deal with in trying to help tickets holders find alternate arrangements.

What I don't buy though is the people saying that they aren't going because of crime, boring team, don't like the coach, music too loud, etc.

And the poster who doesn't want to go because he's afraid the team will only lose in the playoffs and disappoint him again?!? That sounds way more like a 'you problem' than a Jets problem.

 

[ryanshope]

Welcome to the forum and great first post. I think your experience is very similar to that of a lot of fans. There is a huge affordability issue going on for a lot of people right now and Jets tickets are obviously lower priority than food, mortgage, gas, etc. It hasn't helped that the TNSE reps were crap to deal with in trying to help tickets holders find alternate arrangements.

What I don't buy though is the people saying that they aren't going because of crime, boring team, don't like the coach, music too loud, etc.

And the poster who doesn't want to go because he's afraid the team will only lose in the playoffs and disappoint him again?!? That sounds way more like a 'you problem' than a Jets problem.

Totally agree. Downtown Winnipeg is no different than any other city these days. I was in Ottawa in October and I couldn't believe how the homelessness/substance use issues had exploded. Edmonton, IMO, is worse than Winnipeg- you literally see it everywhere there. I was in Baltimore in September for a conference and there was a shooting in broad daylight across from our hotel. Two people killed. I was in Atlanta for Halloween weekend and there was a shooting at the event we are attending. Mass pandemonium. It's everywhere. I understand for that some people, the issues in downtown threaten their own personal sense of safety, but I live in the Village and on multiple occasions I have walked DT and to Jets games without any issues. I have found that if you treat people with respect by acknowledging them, smiling and firmly saying "no", you get a lot further than the way we treat people these days. End rant. LOL

 

[sipowicz]

21-1 in the last 22 regular season games...

If you cannot sell out the arena, then this team is destined to move.

The location of the arena is now the issue, elephant in the room no one wants to admit

 

[Teppo Numenor]

The fan base is turning over and the team needs to take a page out of the bombers playbook ( hand it off to oliviera ) who have a lot of young fans. I have been a life long fan going back to the end of the wha. I didnt get to see my first game until 2015, tickets just seemed too hard to get. The people I knew who had seats were not really hockey fans. They were jumping the band wagon of the big new show in town. Those people are now scaling back their seats or giving them up completely. They weren't really hockey fans to begin with and they are now interested in spending their money elsewhere. This is the second year I am managing a ticket group, we have three serious fans and one new-comer and we are having a great time. Its pretty simple in my view, build a fan base of actual fans as the fly by night fans move on. I think they are in the beginning of that process.

 

[Scheifele55]

The location of the arena is now the issue, ekephant in the room no one wants to admit

Where do people want the arena to be?

 

[Bender Duster]

Where do people want the arena to be?

A block from his house with free parking and $5 tickets.

 

[AtomicJets]

All I can speak for is myself, but I used to watch every game nearly religiously, and got to at least a few games a year. It’s over an hour drive one way, so it’s a decent commitment to go to a game for me.
Now I can hardly force myself to watch a game on TV, and can barely remember the last game I went to.
I think it’s a combination of many things.
Mainly I just can’t get any excitement going no matter how good they’re playing because I’d rather not get attached and get my hopes up for them to just collapse in the playoffs in humiliating fashion like they seem to do so often.
Another part of it is True North as an organization being so tone deaf for so long, doing so little to make it affordable, or even fun to attend a game. It’s painfully obvious even on TV how dull the atmosphere in there was the last few seasons. Then Chipman wants to guilt us into feeling like we’re the reason the team has attendance problems. A large part of me just doesn’t think he is the right person to be running this organization, and that just doesn’t make me keen to support the organization unfortunately.
As much as people want to pretend like it’s not, I know for a fact that going downtown is a huge deterrent for a lot of people. Especially rural people coming in from out of town.
That’s just the way it is to me anyways. I just can’t bring myself to get excited about a team rolling through the regular season when they’ve had one good playoff run in their 13 year history. And more often than not play like garbage in the playoffs. Which is a shame, because I really do want to be excited about them.

Probably the single worst post I've ever read on this site.

 

[WiscoJet]

My two cents are that I think the Jets will be fine for now....Now if attendance dips and averages 10-11k a game then I think we can have a serious conversation. I say that to say the Jets only become a real problem if the rest of the league thinks they aren't holding up their end of the bargain like the Coyotes did. With rock solid ownership from a finance perspective I find that hard to believe. Let's all breath for a little bit and see if the Jets can find some footing in a sound business strategy to get people to come out to the games. Seems like they abused the hell out of their customer relationships some beyond repair. That would be my biggest concern personally. To the people saying they are 13-1-0 and still can't sell out the barn. I think this is a unique situation where customers didn't leave because the team was losing they left because they were taken for granted and treated poorly.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Thread is starting to get a bit melodramatic.

I’m not saying concerns about location, poor customer service, declining fan experience, etc. aren’t valid. They are. But what this essentially boils down to: swaths of seats - amounting to about 2000 seats in the 300 level - that they can’t reliably and routinely sell. Corporate boxes, premium seats, and most of the non-premium lower bowl seats are spoken for.

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think it should be that monumental a task to drum up another 2,000ish fans to fill the cheapest seats in the building.

 

[Buffdog]

Thread is starting to get a bit melodramatic.

I’m not saying concerns about location, poor customer service, declining fan experience, etc. aren’t valid. They are. But what this essentially boils down to: swaths of seats - amounting to about 2000 seats in the 300 level - that they can’t reliably and routinely sell. Corporate boxes, premium seats, and most of the non-premium lower bowl seats are spoken for.

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think it should be that monumental a task to drum up another 2,000ish fans to fill the cheapest seats in the building.

It's also worth noting that if you're gonna have empty seats, the 300s is where you want them because that's where you'll lose the least amount of revenue if they're empty.

One P1 seat is worth 3 P7s

 

[complex]

Personally I have not been to a Jets game in 2 years now. I used to go to 15ish games a year but near the end all the games felt exactly the same, so I stopped.

After not going anymore, I find that I don't miss it at all. I still follow the Jets online and watch games on TV, but the reality is that if the Jets moved to Houston nothing would change for me. If I'm not going to the games, what do I care where they play.

 

[voyageur]

My two cents are that I think the Jets will be fine for now....Now if attendance dips and averages 10-11k a game then I think we can have a serious conversation. I say that to say the Jets only become a real problem if the rest of the league thinks they aren't holding up their end of the bargain like the Coyotes did. With rock solid ownership from a finance perspective I find that hard to believe. Let's all breath for a little bit and see if the Jets can find some footing in a sound business strategy to get people to come out to the games. Seems like they abused the hell out of their customer relationships some beyond repair. That would be my biggest concern personally. To the people saying they are 13-1-0 and still can't sell out the barn. I think this is a unique situation where customers didn't leave because the team was losing they left because they were taken for granted and treated poorly.

I think there's a lot of feedback from STH's on here, but for average fans, the ones who don't have $10 000 in disposable income to spend, the cost is high. Just looking at Nashville and what their tickets cost for the upper deck, they sell out every night, or damn near. Because tickets are reasonably priced. The Jets upper deck seats are expensive for the most part. When I first bought in, to 5 games a year, when the team came back I was paying $1000 for 10 tickets, to be in the back of the lower bowl. Good luck getting that now for the upper deck, against a good team. Sell your tickets at $50 CDN regularly like the Preds do, building is full. But True North wants to make money to compete with small U.S market teams that have larger capacities and the advantage in their dollar value. If hockey becomes a rich person's sport, for both playing and entertainment, it will alienate a lot of people who are hockey fans.

 

[voyageur]

I think there's a lot of feedback from STH's on here, but for average fans, the ones who don't have $10 000 in disposable income to spend, the cost is high. Just looking at Nashville and what their tickets cost for the upper deck, they sell out every night, or damn near. Because tickets are reasonably priced. The Jets upper deck seats are expensive for the most part. When I first bought in, to 5 games a year, when the team came back I was paying $1000 for 10 tickets, to be in the back of the lower bowl. Good luck getting that now for the upper deck, against a good team. Sell your tickets at $50 CDN regularly like the Preds do, building is full. But True North wants to make money to compete with small U.S market teams that have larger capacities and the advantage in their dollar value. If hockey becomes a rich person's sport, for both playing and entertainment, it will alienate a lot of people who are hockey fans.

I'd say too go a step further, put out some tickets to Jordan's Principle as a discount, when i was working group homes, I know they would regularly get tickets from the Bombers. Get school divisions invested so that they can reward students and their families for academic and athletic excellence. Things to keep growing a fanbase, because if the Jets are staying they have to look to the future. Hockey is a culture in Winnipeg, and Manitoba, maybe not as strong as it was in the 90s, but it's still there, from the grassroots up.

 

[AtomicJets]

I think there's a lot of feedback from STH's on here, but for average fans, the ones who don't have $10 000 in disposable income to spend, the cost is high. Just looking at Nashville and what their tickets cost for the upper deck, they sell out every night, or damn near. Because tickets are reasonably priced. The Jets upper deck seats are expensive for the most part. When I first bought in, to 5 games a year, when the team came back I was paying $1000 for 10 tickets, to be in the back of the lower bowl. Good luck getting that now for the upper deck, against a good team. Sell your tickets at $50 CDN regularly like the Preds do, building is full. But True North wants to make money to compete with small U.S market teams that have larger capacities and the advantage in their dollar value. If hockey becomes a rich person's sport, for both playing and entertainment, it will alienate a lot of people who are hockey fans.

This post is so out to lunch. It's just fully divorced from reality.

First of all the Nashville CMA has 2.1 million people. That's almost three times more than Winnipeg and their arena holds about 17200, barely 2000 more than CLC.

Second, I don't know where you're getting your prices from but Nashville's tickets start at 65 USD and go up from there. If you want to talk about the resale market, that's different, but you can get Jets tickets dirt cheap on resale as well. Meanwhile the Jets actually sell tickets directly for 50 CAD in the upper deck for many games. So your claim about the relative ticket prices is just plain false.

You also claim that the $1000 you paid for ten lower bowl tickets 10 years ago isn't even possible in the upper bowl now. I'm in a ticket group paying 1200 for 11 tickets in the lower bowl, so again you are just lying or misinformed.

Finally, your last point about hockey becoming a rich person's sport? Uhhh when was it not? Try buying equipment, sticks, and registering your kid for hockey. It's gotten more expensive but it was still wildly expensive 10-20 years ago, especially if you wanted to play AA or higher.

Honestly you just come off as a person who doesn't want to leave their house. And that's fine, do what you want. But don't blame the Jets for your misery, and definitely don't spread garbage misinformation to justify yourself.