Three or more 50 Goal Seasons

[lextune]

Most 50 Goal Seasons:

Mike Bossy - 9
Wayne Gretzky - 9
Alex Ovechkin - 9
Guy Lafleur - 6
Marcel Dionne - 6
Mario Lemieux - 6
Bobby Hull - 5
Brett Hull - 5
Pavel Bure - 5
Phil Esposito - 5
Steve Yzerman - 5
Jari Kurri - 4
Michel Goulet - 4
Tim Kerr - 4
Cam Neely - 3
Jaromir Jagr - 3
John LeClair - 3
Luc Robitaille - 3
Rick Vaive - 3
Teemu Selanne - 3
Leon Draisaitl - 3

21 players. 15 are already in the HOF. Another three are not eligible yet, but are locks (Jagr, Ovechkin, Draisaitl).

That leaves three players, Kerr, LeClair, and Vaive. I'd like to hear the argument against these player who are otherwise in extremely rarefied company.

Click to read more...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Rick Vaive is an easy out. He peaked in the highest scoring era ever, but still never hit 450 goals or 800 points.

In his 3 50 goal seasons he was

5th - 1982
7th - 1983
5th - 1984

in goals

In 1984 he finished 17th in points, his only time in the top 20 in points.

I wouldn't be opposed to LeClair getting in, but Vaive isn't even Hall of Very Good. At his best, he flirted with being a top 20 forward in the world.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, Vaive is not an interesting player. Just a bad team scorer at a good scoring time.

Kerr probably would have been in already, but he played like, what, six seasons that could be construed as full...?

Kerr was an immoveable net-front guy, he was a vending machine...but he wasn't all tap-ins and tips like Ryan Smyth, he could really shoot too. But his style of play led to about as many injuries as you can name...he wasn't a good skater to begin with, not really a play driver...but a guy that could dominate the lowest layer of the attack zone and the mid slot.

Not exactly a HHOF talent for me, and he certainly didn't play long enough or have enough impact seasons...

LeClair probably requires a deeper dive with the power of retrospect. I still have my doubts though...postseason all-star nods at LW tend to overrate players around here too...as if every position was created equal...

 

[VanIslander]

1. Vaive is not on all-time draft teams, despite 20 years of 20 to 40ish GMs scouring hockey history for gems.

2. I remember watching him play. I thought him less than the Leafs media pumped him as being.

 

[MadLuke]

If LeClair had repeated the 93 playoff exploit with the Flyers he could be in.

His prime is obviously high enough and not particularly short has prime goes, 5 season is not bad.

But outside of it there little, and post 93 playoff LeClair ?

30goals in the first 74 games during his peak, not bad for that era, that Claude Lemieux pace, but that not better Tkachuck, Shanahan, etc... that are ding for it during those time, nothing special and he need to come back from that short body of work, Bure-Forsberg and other leaved no doubt in low amount of time in part by how good in the playoff they have been, not him imo.

 

[VanIslander]

It's crazy that...

1. No one has more 50-goal seasons when Grtez himself admitted his shot was a "weakness" of his game; he practiced his slapshot endlessly, unsatisfied.

2. Gretzky having had more assists than anyone points, but his goal scoring is still top-notch in terms of productivity.

3. Is Ovechkin going to have another 50-goal season? Unlikely. Is Draisaitl going to have 7 more? Unlikely. .... it looks like no one is going to beat the record for at least a half century since the record was set by Gretzky and career-shortened-by-injury sniper Mike Bossy, the Gordie Howe & Bobby Orr of career length in this discussion.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

If LeClair had repeated the 93 playoff exploit with the Flyers he could be in.

His prime is obviously high enough and not particularly short has prime goes, 5 season is not bad.

But outside of it there little, and post 93 playoff LeClair ?

30goals in the first 74 games during his peak, not bad for that era, that Claude Lemieux pace, but that not better Tkachuck, Shanahan, etc... that are ding for it during those time, nothing special and he need to come back from that short body of work, Bure-Forsberg and other leaved no doubt in low amount of time in part by how good in the playoff they have been, not him imo.

To me, Leclair should be in.

Thought he was a much better player than Tkachuk.

Leclair was 2-time first team all-star, 3-time second team all-star. More than Tkachuk, Shanahan, Selanne or Bure.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's crazy that...

1. No one has more 50-goal seasons when Grtez himself admitted his shot was a "weakness" of his game; he practiced his slapshot endlessly, unsatisfied.

2. Gretzky having had more assists than anyone points, but his goal scoring is still top-notch in terms of productivity.

3. Is Ovechkin going to have another 50-goal season? Unlikely. Is Draisaitl going to have 7 more? Unlikely. .... it looks like no one is going to beat the record for at least a half century since the record was set by Gretzky and career-shortened-by-injury sniper Mike Bossy, the Gordie Howe & Bobby Orr of career length in this discussion.

Odd post for this thread, no?

Does everything have to be about Gretzky?

 

[MadLuke]

Leclair was 2-time first team all-star, 3-time second team all-star. More than Tkachuk, Shanahan, Selanne or Bure.

RW-LW can make things a bit unfair , yes his prime is certainly good enough.

Take 1998, Bure score 51 goals-90 pts miss the all star team spots to all time great Jagr and Selanne.

LeClair score 51 goals-87 pts, get the first place spot over Tkachuck and Brind'amour , Shanahan got 2 first place vote not even scoring 30 goal or 60 pts that year.

Naslund was 3 time first team all-star, also a prime and peak got enough, but so little outside of it, how much playoff fame ?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Thought he was a much better player than Tkachuk.

No obligation for you or anyone to answer this...but I'm constantly watching games, so...

Is it just me or was Tkachuk in Winnipeg/Phoenix a different player than after that time? To me, it's like he played a real power forward game with the Jets/Coyotes, and afterwards he was just a bigger skilled guy. He didn't really assert himself as much.

Similarly, though injuries were a factor, was Roenick really the same player in Chicago that he was with later franchises? Meh...

I wonder what the world looks like where they're both invested at the same time there...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

RW-LW can make things a bit unfair , yes his prime is certainly good enough.

Take 1998, Bure score 51 goals-90 pts miss the all star team spots to all time great Jagr and Selanne.

LeClair score 51 goals-87 pts, get the first place spot over Tkachuck and Brind'amour , Shanahan got 2 first place vote not even scoring 30 goal or 60 pts that year.

Naslund was 3 time first team all-star, also a prime and peak got enough, but so little outside of it, how much playoff fame ?

In 1998 Leclair was also +30, better than all the wingers that got votes on either wing that season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

No obligation for you or anyone to answer this...but I'm constantly watching games, so...

Is it just me or was Tkachuk in Winnipeg/Phoenix a different player than after that time? To me, it's like he played a real power forward game with the Jets/Coyotes, and afterwards he was just a bigger skilled guy. He didn't really assert himself as much.

Similarly, though injuries were a factor, was Roenick really the same player in Chicago that he was with later franchises? Meh...

I wonder what the world looks like where they're both invested at the same time there...

Tkachuk looked overweight in the 2nd half of his career.

 

[MadLuke]

In 1998 Leclair was also +30, better than all the wingers that got votes on either wing that season.

Playing with Lindros (peak Lindros will be of the biggest even strength tilting the ice force in the history of the game) can help that a lot.

LeClair scored quite well when Lindros missed time, but the +/- take a big hit

From 96-00 LeClair with Lindros vs without Lindros, per game

Goals..: 0.59 vs 0.56
Assists: 0.54 vs 0.48
Points.: 1.13 vs 1.04
+/-....: 0.38 vs 0.22

We can really doubt that Lindros can be said to be the reason John scored so much, maybe outside some initial confidence boost, he missed enough games to give some idea and we can give the benefit of the doubt that he would have scored goals, a lot of them.

But Rendberg went from +36 on Lindros line to -37 with Tampa Bay, Bure +5 on that -49 goals terrible Canucks team was not bad at all.

Regardless, does he get the first spot over 102 pts Art Ross winning Jagr ?, we can doubt it, Bure-Selanne competition at right wing was obviously much higher, Shanahan-Tkachuck are perfect referent.

But I do not think anyone would claim that LeClair prime in the regular season was not good enough, that All-star track record just confirm the notion that not an issue for him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Lindros wasn't exactly a playmaking center. He was a power forward that happened to play center. If LeClair saw any benefit, it'd be from rebounds and space/distraction generated by Lindros...not from consistently setting him up with A+ chances.

Lindros was 16th in the league in power play goals as a Flyer (his prime), and he's narrowly missing top 10.

But on the power play, where you expect your best player to have more time and space and be able to calculate things...well, he's 39th with Andrew Cassels.

For recent perspective, after power plays started to return to normal in 2010...from '10 to '16 - a 40th-ish place finish is Mark Streit, Kimmo Timmonen, Paul Stastny, Stamkos (who is mostly a 1T threat) territory. Hell, even Ovechkin is around 30th.

Not a perfect measure, of course...nothing is. But just trying to apply a little bit numerical backing to the concept.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Mike Bossy - 9
Wayne Gretzky - 9
Alex Ovechkin - 9

i feel like ovie deserves an asterisk here

if not for a lockout in 2013 or the 2020 covid lockdown, he would almost certainly have the most 50 goal seasons ever outright and be the only double digit 50 goal scorer

 

[DitchMarner]

Vaive is a great example of how much playing for a shitty team and in a very high-scoring era can inflate a player's stats.

I tried thinking of a recent comparable in terms of goal scoring prowess and general calibre and the best I could do was prime Pacioretty. There you have it. Vaive was a more physical, tougher Pacioretty. Good player; nowhere close to HHOF cslibre (even by the Hall's actual standards).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Playing with Lindros (peak Lindros will be of the biggest even strength tilting the ice force in the history of the game) can help that a lot.

LeClair scored quite well when Lindros missed time, but the +/- take a big hit

From 96-00 LeClair with Lindros vs without Lindros, per game

Goals..: 0.59 vs 0.56
Assists: 0.54 vs 0.48
Points.: 1.13 vs 1.04
+/-....: 0.38 vs 0.22

We can really doubt that Lindros can be said to be the reason John scored so much, maybe outside some initial confidence boost, he missed enough games to give some idea and we can give the benefit of the doubt that he would have scored goals, a lot of them.

But Rendberg went from +36 on Lindros line to -37 with Tampa Bay, Bure +5 on that -49 goals terrible Canucks team was not bad at all.

Regardless, does he get the first spot over 102 pts Art Ross winning Jagr ?, we can doubt it, Bure-Selanne competition at right wing was obviously much higher, Shanahan-Tkachuck are perfect referent.

But I do not think anyone would claim that LeClair prime in the regular season was not good enough, that All-star track record just confirm the notion that not an issue for him.

Can we do Kurri now.

Playing with Gretzky....

 

[MadLuke]

Can we do Kurri now.

Playing with Gretzky....

Unlike Lemieux-Lindros, Gretzky did not miss many game to do something like this for the big Kurri season, but the first time Gretzky started to miss significant time in 88, Kurri had his worst +/- in his career and was only 0 during the 13 games stretch Gretzky missed.

 

[The Panther]

We pause here to remember that Jari Kurri was a 2nd-team All Star and 8th in scoring in 1988-89, without Gretzky. He was also named the Oilers' team MVP (over prime Messier) that year.

The next season, Kurri had 77 points in 57 games (116 point pace), before his contact dispute appeared to slow him down later in the season. Still scored 93 points and then 10 playoff goals (including a 3-goal, 2-assist game in game two of the Cup Finals).

Even in L.A., with Gretzky on the sidelines, Kurri scored 46 points in 22 games (second to Mario overall) to start the 1992-93 season.

 

[The Panther]

Back to the thread-topic:

Kerr
Such a strange career in that he had 5 All-Star seasons (in six years) that are just great. A staggering 82 power-play goals in three consecutive seasons. But outside of those 5 super seasons, all the rest are either unimpressive or are partial seasons due to lots of injuries.

So, overall, 13 seasons and 5 were super. Can that merit Hall of Fame entry? No, unless some of those 5 were so super that they blew away the competition... which they didn't, unless you count power-play goals.

So, the answer is no. Maybe if Kerr hadn't been injured so much, he'd be in.

LeClair
LeClair probably has the best argument for Hall entry. He had six great seasons in a row -- so, one more than Kerr, and all consecutively.

His playoff results were maybe a little underwhelming.

Vaive
No argument for Vaive. Full credit for three great seasons in a row for a pretty inept Leafs' squad (and another All Star-ish season for the Hawks in 1987-88), but if you're a really one-dimensional player, which he was, you'd have to have more than three or four All-Star-like seasons.

 

[solidmotion]

Even in L.A., with Gretzky on the sidelines, Kurri scored 46 points in 22 games (second to Mario overall) to start the 1992-93 season.

first time i've seen this stat... and then he scored only 41 points in the remaining 60 games. what happened?

 

[GRob83]

Since this post is about goal scoring and specifically 50 goal seasons, Peter Bondra deserves a mention. He was twice a 50 goal scorer and had another where he was the league leader in a shortened season that saw him on pace for 58. He was a better goal scorer than Leclair, Kerr or Vaive.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Raw stat thresholds are not especially indicative since scoring fluctuates dramatically by era.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I would take all 3 guys before Kevin Lowe(Maybe not Vaive). None of them are HHOF worthy with high standards, but with how low standards have dropped. Would anyone take Andreychuk before Kerr or Leclair? I'm not knocking Andreychuk, he was a good player but Kerr and Leclair were significantly better in the same role.

 

[Dingo]

It's crazy that...

1. No one has more 50-goal seasons when Grtez himself admitted his shot was a "weakness" of his game; he practiced his slapshot endlessly, unsatisfied.

2. Gretzky having had more assists than anyone points, but his goal scoring is still top-notch in terms of productivity.

3. Is Ovechkin going to have another 50-goal season? Unlikely. Is Draisaitl going to have 7 more? Unlikely. .... it looks like no one is going to beat the record for at least a half century since the record was set by Gretzky and career-shortened-by-injury sniper Mike Bossy, the Gordie Howe & Bobby Orr of career length in this discussion.

part of the answer to the mystery is because guys like Vaive scored three 50 goal seasons....