This team needs to pick a direction, and there’s only one right answer.

[Lunatik]

I think Kadri has done everything in his power to make himself a tradeable piece again. I am hoping Craig can find a taker and I think that really deflates the team if he's moved.

Or maybe Andersson. I think either of those two going finally pulls the plug on this tub a bit more.

What message does that send to these young guys? That's how teams end up falling into a cycle of being garbage for decades at a time.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

What message does that send to these young guys? That's how teams end up falling into a cycle of being garbage for decades at a time.

.... that we're continuing to rebuild and retool that we started last year, and we don't think Kadri is going to be the difference between us winning the cup and not, especially at his age.

Andersson I'm only wanting to flip if he's indicated he won't re-sign. If he won't, then move him now.

Garbage decades a time, or stuck in the middle of not good enough for playoffs, but not bad enough for top picks is a pretty trash place to be too.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Only the "one right answer" if the draft was a sure thing. It isn't.

For every Tkachuk, Monahan & Bennett you have a chance of a Krahn / Saprykin / Fata / Tkaczuk.

Losing is easy; winning is hard. I'd rather the team take the hard road, even if it might not translate into wins all of the time. Nashville game is an example of that - out played them but lost. Just bring the effort every night. That's how you build a culture of winning. Trading from the leadership group (Kadri & Coleman in particular) erodes that culture.

 

[Volica]

.... that we're continuing to rebuild and retool that we started last year, and we don't think Kadri is going to be the difference between us winning the cup and not, especially at his age.

Andersson I'm only wanting to flip if he's indicated he won't re-sign. If he won't, then move him now.

Garbage decades a time, or stuck in the middle of not good enough for playoffs, but not bad enough for top picks is a pretty trash place to be too.

Calgary also doesn't have the issues that teams like Buffalo or Columbus have, where they lack the ability to develop anything outside of surefire top picks (and somehow pooch those too). This team has actually, and for a decade+ now, been very good at getting guys in later rounds to become prominent parts of their team. That, along with having a decent eye for free agents that are generally solid additions.

Since 2015, outside of lotto picks; the Flames have graduated 12 guys from draft picks to playing NHL hockey.
Of those guys:

2 will likely never play in the NHL again (Ruzicka and Dube).
1 never played for Calgary, but was used as an asset to help acquire more pieces in a trade (Fox)
5 guys developed in top 9 forwards for the club now or at some point.
2 guys developed into top 4 guys for this club now or at some point.
1 guy developed into what looks like a star goalie.

Then you add on top of that, the 2015 1st was used to bring in Hamilton, which in turn along with Fox was used to bring in Lindholm and Hanifin, which in turn is still bringing in players to the org.

I will stand by this, I've said it for a long time here, if Calgary ever had the chance at getting a franchise centre at the top of a draft, this team would be in contention mode until that guy left/retired. Hence why I'm so for grabbing Pettersson, I don't think people understand what a centre of that caliber would do for this club, he's been 'down' this year, but that's also why he's available. When's the last time trading for an elite centre like that has hurt the club receiving the player?

 

[Figgy44]

This is just my opinion, but it’s important for this franchise to decide whether or not they want to make the playoffs or finish in the bottom 10. I do not want to give Montreal our first round pick this year, and I doubt the organization or anyone else here does either. I think this is a critical point in our organizational path for the next 10 years.

The Flames are currently 5 points out of the bottom 10. The difference between 13th and 26th is only 7 points, it’s easier than ever to be in the “mushy middle”. That’s why I think Conroy has to make some painful decisions in the next month or two.

It looks like the battle for the 2nd WC spot will be between Vancouver, Calgary, Utah and St.Louis.

I like our chances if Vancouver continues to implode, but the way this team is I don’t see the Flames having the consistency to win out for a playoff spot in the end. It essentially relies on Wolf going god mode and being borderline Vézina level. And buying at the deadline makes no sense to me as even if we do make the playoffs, I don’t wanna get steamrolled by Vegas or whoever comes out of the central.

I understand wanting to foster a culture of winning and not ending up being Buffalo 2.0, I really do, but I also do not see the point in finishing 18th and losing out on a top 10 draft pick during this stage of the rebuild (or whatever you wanna call it). I believe a bunch of centers are projected to go in the top 10, which is a position of organizational need.

I think we need to trade 2 of Andersson, Coleman and Kadri before the deadline. Ideally Andersson and Coleman as they will likely garner the largest return.

What does the rest of HF Flames think? Am I out to lunch here or what? I think this deserves its own thread as the discussion could be good for this forum.

Nope, IMO there's two right answers, even if the ultimate path is essentially identical (proper rebuild).

One, is to aggressive retool to be a contender for 2-3 seasons (ie: quantity for quality RFA). We have the right types of assets to do this. HOWEVER, we do not move any futures more than 2 seasons out (2027). A last huzzah in the Dome before the new barn. This timing also allows us to naturally bottom out as our veterans retire, decline, get traded etc. which also technically allows us to do right by Backlund vs what happened with Gio. THEN we do the rebuild from 2027-2030 (in the new barn).

Or we start now. But that's kind of a kick in the face to the veterans that have been here for the ups and downs.

Either way though, I agree with Conroy about fostering a winning culture a la Boston or Dallas etc. Then hopefully we can naturally bottom out, draft high for a few seasons and aim to rocket back up the standings in a Dallas, Colorado, Detroit (TBD) etc. type of manner and reduce the risk of being stuck in an uncertain state like a Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, CBJ, NJD etc. type manner.

I honestly prefer aiming to do a 2-3 season huzzah to give Backlund and the Dome an appropriate farewell vs fully starting the rebuild now, but I get why some others want to start right away so that we have something interesting the moment we move into the new barn.

Only the "one right answer" if the draft was a sure thing. It isn't.

For every Tkachuk, Monahan & Bennett you have a chance of a Krahn / Saprykin / Fata / Tkaczuk.

Losing is easy; winning is hard. I'd rather the team take the hard road, even if it might not translate into wins all of the time. Nashville game is an example of that - out played them but lost. Just bring the effort every night. That's how you build a culture of winning. Trading from the leadership group (Kadri & Coleman in particular) erodes that culture.

Our drafting is a lot better now. I have no doubt we will deal with less of that going forward.

ie: See Zary and Honzek ups and downs.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Calgary also doesn't have the issues that teams like Buffalo or Columbus have, where they lack the ability to develop anything outside of surefire top picks (and somehow pooch those too). This team has actually, and for a decade+ now, been very good at getting guys in later rounds to become prominent parts of their team. That, along with having a decent eye for free agents that are generally solid additions.

Since 2015, outside of lotto picks; the Flames have graduated 12 guys from draft picks to playing NHL hockey.
Of those guys:

2 will likely never play in the NHL again (Ruzicka and Dube).
1 never played for Calgary, but was used as an asset to help acquire more pieces in a trade (Fox)
5 guys developed in top 9 forwards for the club now or at some point.
2 guys developed into top 4 guys for this club now or at some point.
1 guy developed into what looks like a star goalie.

Then you add on top of that, the 2015 1st was used to bring in Hamilton, which in turn along with Fox was used to bring in Lindholm and Hanifin, which in turn is still bringing in players to the org.

I will stand by this, I've said it for a long time here, if Calgary ever had the chance at getting a franchise centre at the top of a draft, this team would be in contention mode until that guy left/retired. Hence why I'm so for grabbing Pettersson, I don't think people understand what a centre of that caliber would do for this club, he's been 'down' this year, but that's also why he's available. When's the last time trading for an elite centre like that has hurt the club receiving the player?

Granted a massive reason Calgary has been so good at developing is we put guys in positions to succeed. We don’t throw players to the wolves and insulate the extremely well. A large part of the reason teams like Buffalo and Columbus are brutal at developing players is by time the players ready for the NHL, they throw them in top minutes with other young guys and expect them to start being a difference maker with out much support. Whereas look at what Calgary did with Zary. He was playing 14 to 16 minutes a night with our best veteran forward in favorable minutes. This year he got his usage ramped up, and now that we’ve shifted him to centre he’s back to 15 minutes a night and extremely favorable usage.

Calgary’s drafting and developing is at the tops of the league, but it’s also because of how we deploy our young players even if it’s against how a lot of people want here. Assuming we could be in there position and still excel isn’t true, because the depth of veteran talent we still possess is a large reason we are so good at developing players.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Our drafting is a lot better now. I have no doubt we will deal with less of that going forward.

ie: See Zary and Honzek ups and downs.

I'm not convinced that it's "a lot" better - but more often than not, outside of the top three the draft is pure dumb luck, which is kind of my point. Tod Button has been director of scouting since what, 2000? More busts than booms in the first round during his tenure.

Thing is, the team as it stands isn't bottom three bad, and they simply won't be if Wolf is on the team, unless you trade him along with everyone with a modicum of talent. Then we'll look at possibly being competitive by 2034.

The path of player development appears to have changed slightly (not to be confused with drafting) and will help build the skillset and confidence of younger players by playing them in the AHL longer in elevated roles. Helps having the team in Calgary to share in some of the player development resources that may not be available if the farm team was in a different city.

 

[Iggys Dome]

How sweet would it be if we ended up finishing outside the top 10 and missing the playoffs but our pick won the lottery and we drafted first thus giving Montreal our Florida pick anyways…

I would believe in the hockey gods till the day I die. That would be good karma for not trying to “tank”

 

[Volica]

I'm not convinced that it's "a lot" better - but more often than not, outside of the top three the draft is pure dumb luck, which is kind of my point. Tod Button has been director of scouting since what, 2000? More busts than booms in the first round during his tenure.

Thing is, the team as it stands isn't bottom three bad, and they simply won't be if Wolf is on the team, unless you trade him along with everyone with a modicum of talent. Then we'll look at possibly being competitive by 2034.

The path of player development appears to have changed slightly (not to be confused with drafting) and will help build the skillset and confidence of younger players by playing them in the AHL longer in elevated roles. Helps having the team in Calgary to share in some of the player development resources that may not be available if the farm team was in a different city.

I think there was a shift in our drafting philosophy around 2011 to be fair, lots more focus on skill,
Like, the drafts before and after look really nothing alike. It wasn't a Flames draft prior to 2012 that didn't involve about 4-5 kids from WHL being drafted by us. Almost zero Europeans, rarely college players, nothing from the Q and even stingy OHL representation.

The development has been major for the team in recent years especially. I don't think I can stress this enough really. We as fans all complain about how we treat these guys, but this team hasn't really been wrong with prospects all that much, especially recently.

Look at Zary, look at Pelts, look a Posp, look at Wolf. These guys all overcooked in the AHL despite fans crying, but look what they're doing now, they're important parts of the team moving forward.

I'll stand by my point I've been making, this team needs to acquire players when they become available they can buy-low on. Kakko was there earlier this year, Pettersson looks to be there now (albeit I imagine a fools errand for Calgary trading with Van for someone that talented)... they just need more guys to keep pouring into the org in hope one catches fire.

I look at Washington. Their top three centres?
Dylan Strome: Ex-lotto pick that bounced around, signed a gimme-3.5M contract with Washington as an untendered UFA... then extended for 5x5.
44 points in 39 games this year.
Pierre-Luc Dubois: Unceremoniously dumped by his last team, 4th team in his young career already, traded for a 34 year old goalie coming off a 890SV% and 3.3GAA season. 30 points in 39 games this year.
Connor McMichael: Picked 1 slot before Jakob Pelletier , up-and-down NHLer since being drafted (90AHL games, 194 NHL games), 31 points in 39 games.

Then you add in Jakob Chychrun having one helluva revival season. Traded for nothing. 34 year old depth guy and a 3rd.

That's what we need to be doing. Bet on skill.

 

[Mobiandi]

The Monahan trade is hanging over this fanbase like an ax. Why he wasn’t put on LTIR, I’ll never understand.

I don’t think this team should have a fear of trading guys. There are always leaders looking for one last UFA paycheck in free agency. And Calgary is a very common retirement spot for NHL players. This isn’t Columbus/Buffalo/Detroit

 

[Some Other Flame]

What NHL executives think of Craig Conroy's first year and a half as the Calgary Flames General Manager - The Win Column

Two NHL executives share their thoughts on Craig Conroy's first year and a half as the Calgary Flames General Manager

thewincolumn.ca

Exec Two: “I think he’s done a good job for the most part. He could have got some better returns for some of the guys they dealt if they traded them in the summer as opposed to deadline. Hanifin in particular. I know we offered more for him in the summer than they got at the deadline. I think he’s given the players a little too much power in the decision-making. From an outside view, it sounds like they make a lot of the decisions. You have teams like Tampa or Vegas. Cup-winning teams. They can be harsh to their players in the name of winning. I’d put Calgary on the other end. Not a way I’d run an organization to win. It’s tough sledding for a first-time GM. He’s had a good start to building out their future blue line.”

Exec Two: “Not sure what to say here, honestly. They have an alright team. I would continue trading guys out and rebuilding the roster, but that would piss off the veterans that stay. If they don’t do that, however, they aren’t going to be a good team, ever. That’s not a position I’d want to be in right now. There are a few organizations that seem to be stuck like that. Calgary is one of those. It’s hard for other teams to get up for games against teams like that. If our fans were put in that position, I know they wouldn’t be very happy. Says a lot that there’s still a loyal base in Calgary these last few years. They’ve had to be patient.”

Exec One: “Biggest miss would have been that contract they offered to Lindholm. That might be the biggest hit right there, having him say no and all, haha! Actual big miss is probably drafting a few of those guys with character concerns like I mentioned earlier.”

Hilarious how obvious the situation is for the rest of the league

 

[Iggys Dome]

What NHL executives think of Craig Conroy's first year and a half as the Calgary Flames General Manager - The Win Column

Two NHL executives share their thoughts on Craig Conroy's first year and a half as the Calgary Flames General Manager

thewincolumn.ca

Hilarious how obvious the situation is for the rest of the league

Kind of aligns with how I felt with the Hanifin and Tanev trades, both were really underwhelming IMO. Not to mention Lindholm saving us from ourselves and rejecting that 8x9 offer or whatever it was.

 

[Volica]

Kind of aligns with how I felt with the Hanifin and Tanev trades, both were really underwhelming IMO. Not to mention Lindholm saving us from ourselves and rejecting that 8x9 offer or whatever it was.

Not that I'm questioning who these execs are or anything... but like, who are we trading out to continue to rebuild? We don't have anyone worth trading outside Rasmus Andersson.

 

[Iggys Dome]

Not that I'm questioning who these execs are or anything... but like, who are we trading out to continue to rebuild? We don't have anyone worth trading outside Rasmus Andersson.

Coleman, Weegar, Backlund, Kadri?

Not that I advocate trading all of them, you need good vets to insulate the kids. I think if you trade all of them is how you end up being Buffalo.

 

[Volica]

Coleman, Weegar, Backlund, Kadri?

Not that I advocate trading all of them, you need good vets to insulate the kids. I think if you trade all of them is how you end up being Buffalo.

Naz is a 2029 UFA and has an NMC.
Coleman is a 2028 UFA and has a 10 team MNTC
Backlund is a 2026 UFA has an NMC this year, and a 15 team MNTC next year. He's also serving as captain and a big part of the Flames community. If he were to be traded it'll be cup chasing at the deadline next year.
Weegar has a NTC clause until 2027-2028, then a 10 team MNTC until 2031.

There's so much room here, is the problem. Like essentially they all have power to say no (which remember, Kadri used in the past), only Coleman you could do a 10 team list this year.

Like I said, it's really just Andersson you can go out to market on and see who wants to make your big deal.

 

[Mobiandi]

Like I said, it's really just Andersson you can go out to market on and see who wants to make your big deal.

There’s more player power than ever these days in the NHL. Hanifin and his agent tanked our return by trying to force a move to the sunbelt.

Clauses feel symbolic more than anything these days

 

[Volica]

There’s more player power than ever these days in the NHL. Hanifin and his agent tanked our return by trying to force a move to the sunbelt.

Clauses feel symbolic more than anything these days

It also has to do with how Calgary kid-gloves players because if they get a negative reputation on that no one will ever sign here
Like, we can't do what Tampa or Vegas does to players because they have a steady stream of players loving the premise of playing state-income tax-free hockey in the USA. Can't say I blame them; I'm not even a multimillionaire hockey player and we've already started looking for a career move to the US.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Actually no. Of those three only Tkachuk was a part of the success from 6th overall. Gaudreau hit from the fourth round. We traded for/signed the other core pieces or drafted them in later spots like we can ever year.

Not sure what point you're trying to make in pretending that Monahan and Bennett were big reasons for the success of 2022.

Not sure what you are saying no about.
All 3 were early picks that have had very successful careers. That is not debatable. If you can draft good players early, and hit on some late rounders (like Johnny, ofcourse I know he wasn't a 1st rnder) you stand a good chance of being a top team. It also helps making moves like aquiring Linholm & Hanifin. While it wasn't Monny's & Bennetts best season, not sure why you want to pretend that they weren't a part of the success of that team.

My point is that I'd much rather add a Monny/Benny/Tkachuk to this squad in a couple years rather then have a Klimchuk or Poirier for a couple AHL years. The chance of that is greatly increased if we can draft inside the top 10.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

.... that we're continuing to rebuild and retool that we started last year, and we don't think Kadri is going to be the difference between us winning the cup and not, especially at his age.

Andersson I'm only wanting to flip if he's indicated he won't re-sign. If he won't, then move him now.

Garbage decades a time, or stuck in the middle of not good enough for playoffs, but not bad enough for top picks is a pretty trash place to be too.

Quoted for truth.
I am more than tired of the same old story. I personally have no issue with a few crappy years with the promise of a better future. This is HF afterall.

 

[Khrox]

Actually no. Of those three only Tkachuk was a part of the success from 6th overall. Gaudreau hit from the fourth round. We traded for/signed the other core pieces or drafted them in later spots like we can ever year.

I mean, to say Monahan wasn't a fairly key part of those successful years is wild (yeah not the 2022 part, but up until basically his last two years here where he was duct taped together). The guy scored clutch goals consistently for us (and while not as defensively responsible as Lindholm, who was also key, did outproduce him for a good chunk of that time. Can't win if you don't score either).

 

[Anglesmith]

Not sure what you are saying no about.
All 3 were early picks that have had very successful careers. That is not debatable. If you can draft good players early, and hit on some late rounders (like Johnny, ofcourse I know he wasn't a 1st rnder) you stand a good chance of being a top team. It also helps making moves like aquiring Linholm & Hanifin. While it wasn't Monny's & Bennetts best season, not sure why you want to pretend that they weren't a part of the success of that team.

I'm "pretending" they weren't a big part of the team? Bennett literally wasn't part of the team, and Monahan was around 0.3 ppg and got shut down towards the end. Monahan and Bennett played a role in 2015, but they were as much part of success in 2022 as Frolik and Ferland.

My point is that I'd much rather add a Monny/Benny/Tkachuk to this squad in a couple years rather then have a Klimchuk or Poirier for a couple AHL years. The chance of that is greatly increased if we can draft inside the top 10.

This is the definition of a false dichotomy.

Anyway, if the Flames bottom out and really go scorched Earth and deplete all of their talent in the name of elevating draft pick position, it would be extremely disappointing if what we got out of it was three guys of that calibre, and we absolutely would not be able to turn things around from the scorched Earth state with that kind of talent.

 

[Anglesmith]

I mean, to say Monahan wasn't a fairly key part of those successful years is wild (yeah not the 2022 part, but up until basically his last two years here where he was duct taped together). The guy scored clutch goals consistently for us (and while not as defensively responsible as Lindholm, who was also key, did outproduce him for a good chunk of that time. Can't win if you don't score either).

I was reading it as saying that the peak of the success (2022) was based on those three players. I think it's a fairly self-defeating point to use the roster construction in 2022 to try to justify a tank. It wasn't, ultimately, built through high draft picks. It was initially meant to be, but Monahan and Bennett just didn't get to where they were supposed to get to.

But yes, in the broader picture, drafting high in those years was what kept the interest alive in the team and made for some fun times. And in the purple gato year, those guys were key pieces and we were happy to have them. But 2022 showed that they were not the cornerstones that were necessary to make a winning team. That team was built on moves, not draft picks.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

The next 15 or so games will be very detrimental on what this team does that the deadline. Realistically speaking there's only 1 spot left in the western playoff race and 4-6 teams fighting over it. At the same time a top 10 draft pick is literally 4 points back of us and 6 points back of Vancouver (who currently holds that last WC1 spot).

Over the rest of the month Calgary has 2 games against Anaheim (-5 points) and 2 games against St. Louis (-1 point). As well as 2 against LA, 2 against Winnipeg, as well as 1 each against Minnesota and Washington. The only matches against basement teams are 1 each against Chicago and Buffalo.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Anyway, if the Flames bottom out and really go scorched Earth and deplete all of their talent in the name of elevating draft pick position, it would be extremely disappointing if what we got out of it was three guys of that calibre, and we absolutely would not be able to turn things around from the scorched Earth state with that kind of talent.

This is the definition of obtuse. You are debating something that is not even there.
I never said anything about scorch Earth. I never said anything about depleting all their talent.
For the last time - it would be extremely disappointing to miss out on playoffs and hand over our 1st to Montreal.
Think about the title of the thread - we either need to really push (without giving up any important futures) to try and get in, regardless of what happens in Rnd 1 that would be fun. Or, we need to move Ras/Kadri/Kuz/Backs/Coleman - whoever, to continue to add to our assets and increase our chances of dropping back into 5-10.
But maybe you are happy with making moves too late. We are good at that right?

 

[viper0220]

The next 15 or so games will be very detrimental on what this team does that the deadline. Realistically speaking there's only 1 spot left in the western playoff race and 4-6 teams fighting over it. At the same time a top 10 draft pick is literally 4 points back of us and 6 points back of Vancouver (who currently holds that last WC1 spot).

Over the rest of the month Calgary has 2 games against Anaheim (-5 points) and 2 games against St. Louis (-1 point). As well as 2 against LA, 2 against Winnipeg, as well as 1 each against Minnesota and Washington. The only matches against basement teams are 1 each against Chicago and Buffalo.

This is basically it right here, the month of January will determine, what happens with this team going forward.

The months of February and March are going to be hard.

Of by end of January they fall to behind, I hope the right decisions are made.