This is our best top 6 (at forward) since.....?

Gniwder

Registered User
Oct 12, 2009
14,718
7,956
Bellingham, WA
Tarasenko is more of a 3rd liner at this stage so I’m not sure it’s as good as people think. I don’t think he’s much of an upgrade on Perron. We also lost depth scoring in Sprong and Fabbri and replaced that with Berggren and Watson, so IMO the forwards are a wash compared to last season.

Tank had 54 pts last (regular) season, more than Compher. On a deep team like FLA, he's a 3rd liner, but if you look at the league as a whole he's also a low end 2nd liner. He's not much of an upgrade, but at least he's faster than Perron, and he's only 32.

All in all, it's prob a wash like you said. Defense is probably a wash as well, slight upgrade with Talbot in goal.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
11,453
9,419
Last year stats:

Perron 17-30-47 with a -12 and 55 PIM.
Tarasenko 23-32-55 with a +13 and 12 PIM.

Even if Tank drops in production, he will likely be caught out of position less often and take fewer penalties, so I still count him as an upgrade over Perron.

As for Detroit's top six overall, I'm whelmed. The entire second line are placeholders, so they'll do what they're supposed to and hold a place until the kids are ready to be even better.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
20,578
16,170
Sweden
I think some people are underestimating how long it's been since we actually had a really good top 6. Datsyuk & Z carried that group for a loooong time. So it's basically going back in time to a point where you think the quality of Dats+Z was still so good that it outweighs the fact that we are no longer putting players like Cleary, Abdelkader, Miller, Weiss or Nielsen in the top 6.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this might be the best top 6 we've had since 2008-09.

That year we had:

Datsyuk: 97 points
Zetterberg 73 points
Hossa: 71 points
Franzen: 59 points
Hudler: 57 points
Samuelsson/Cleary/Filppula: 40 points

This year I could see:

Raymond: 90 points
Larkin: 80 points
Debrincat: 73 points
Kane: 65 points
Tarasenko: 52 points
Compher: 45 points

It's not apples-to-apples but that was a year when we had a 40 goal scorer and 3 other guys over 30 goals. Would anyone be shocked if Debrincat pots 40 and Larkin+Raymond+Kane all get 30? A lot has to go right but we finally have that kind of potential.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
32,219
13,196
Tampere, Finland
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this might be the best top 6 we've had since 2008-09.

It's not apples-to-apples but that was a year when we had a 40 goal scorer and 3 other guys over 30 goals.

Would anyone be shocked if Debrincat pots 40 and Larkin+Raymond+Kane all get 30? A lot has to go right but we finally have that kind of potential.

It's possible but the scoring era was different. Nowadays points are much easier to score.

Put that 2008-09 team to 2024-25 season and Hossa will score 50 and those three 30-goal scorers will pot 35-40 goals.
 

Axel Sandy Pelikan

Sugar-free Rock Star
May 11, 2023
1,503
1,682
OK, normally I try to leave my questions til GDTs but...

Can someone HERE (i.e. not a copy-pasta from NHL.com) give me a quick explanation of the difference between wingers and center? I understand the positioning but hockey is so reactive I don't get the "he's the playmaker and they're the shooters" or whatever.

Thanks!

Centers take the majority of face offs and are responsible, usually for the middle of the ice. Between the circles in front of net on defense and cycling around the net on offense.

Wingers are on the flanks and usually are responsible defensively for guarding the point. Some different systems utilize them differently, but basically, split the zone into a pentagon on both ends and it’s a circle of responsibility at each end. Wings at the points, d in the corners, and c between circles on D and vice versa on O.

Playmaking vs sniper vs power forward is based upon the talents of the player. Igor Larionov was a playmaking C because his vision was outstanding. Kozlov a sniper because his shot was deadly. Fedorov a hybrid of it all because he was fast, big, had a wonderful shot and great hands.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dalem177

RedHawkDown

still trying to trust the yzerplan
Aug 26, 2011
4,745
5,635
Canada
Last year stats:

Perron 17-30-47 with a -12 and 55 PIM.
Tarasenko 23-32-55 with a +13 and 12 PIM.

Even if Tank drops in production, he will likely be caught out of position less often and take fewer penalties, so I still count him as an upgrade over Perron.

As for Detroit's top six overall, I'm whelmed. The entire second line are placeholders, so they'll do what they're supposed to and hold a place until the kids are ready to be even better.
Tarasenko was in far better teams
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
11,453
9,419
Tarasenko was in far better teams
He was plus zero for his time in Florida. All 13 of that positive differential came from his games with Ottawa, who finished with 13 fewer points than Detroit. And even if I extrapolate his 12 penalty minutes in 57 games with the Senators out to a full season, that's still a significantly lower rate than Perron had in Detroit.

I'm not saying Tank will be stellar here. I'm saying that even with him taking a step back, Perron set a low bar for overall play of a second line forward.
 

The Red Line

Registered User
Oct 11, 2010
8,507
5,023
Tarasenko was in far better teams
He played most of the year for Ottawa who was definitely not a better team than Detroit last year. He’s definitely an improvement over Perron, Sprong, Fabbri, Copp, Veleno or whoever else they had rotating in on that second line.

To answer the OP it’s the best top 6 in quite a while, far from perfect but it should be fun to watch.
 

RedHawkDown

still trying to trust the yzerplan
Aug 26, 2011
4,745
5,635
Canada
for some reason i forgot he played for ottawa for so many games. disregard my comment

overall don't feel the team is much better tha last year. the bottom 6 has more scrubs compared to last year since fabbri and sprong's depth scoring is gone, and the top 6 is slightly better. the D is a wash too.
 

lilidk

Registered User
Mar 4, 2008
10,697
4,098
On the paper this is the best top 6 for last 20 years. In reality to make it work Red Wings needs to trade for top defansman if we want to make playoffs. Tarasenko and Kane great names that past their prime and we don't have defence to make it succeed
 

dalem177

Plausible Keats
Oct 4, 2021
5,010
4,223
Minnesota
Centers take the majority of face offs and are responsible, usually for the middle of the ice. Between the circles in front of net on defense and cycling around the net on offense.

Wingers are on the flanks and usually are responsible defensively for guarding the point. Some different systems utilize them differently, but basically, split the zone into a pentagon on both ends and it’s a circle of responsibility at each end. Wings at the points, d in the corners, and c between circles on D and vice versa on O.

Playmaking vs sniper vs power forward is based upon the talents of the player. Igor Larionov was a playmaking C because his vision was outstanding. Kozlov a sniper because his shot was deadly. Fedorov a hybrid of it all because he was fast, big, had a wonderful shot and great hands.
Perfect, thanks!

If I may be allowed a follow-up? :)

Why is it deemed "hard" to switch between wing and center? If it's positional can't player X just learn a different spot of responsibility on the ice? Or is it mostly face-offs? (Which are still black magic to me.)
 

FlyguyOX

Registered User
Jun 29, 2018
4,198
4,194
That 2nd line sounds like a defensive nightmare. Going to be a lot of pressure on the first line to carry the team IMO.

Knowing Lalonde, he'll probably give the 1st line historic defensive deployment while giving the 2nd line all the O-zone starts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gniwder

Gniwder

Registered User
Oct 12, 2009
14,718
7,956
Bellingham, WA
Perfect, thanks!

If I may be allowed a follow-up? :)

Why is it deemed "hard" to switch between wing and center? If it's positional can't player X just learn a different spot of responsibility on the ice? Or is it mostly face-offs? (Which are still black magic to me.)

Plenty of players have gone from center to wing, it's much harder to play center. Major difference is defensive responsibilities, not just in terms of having to cover all 3 zones, but also because you have to defend a forward, as opposed to covering a defenseman.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dalem177

HisNoodliness

Good things come to those who wait
Jun 29, 2014
3,877
2,320
Toronto
OK, normally I try to leave my questions til GDTs but...

Can someone HERE (i.e. not a copy-pasta from NHL.com) give me a quick explanation of the difference between wingers and center? I understand the positioning but hockey is so reactive I don't get the "he's the playmaker and they're the shooters" or whatever.

Thanks!

Centers take the majority of face offs and are responsible, usually for the middle of the ice. Between the circles in front of net on defense and cycling around the net on offense.

Wingers are on the flanks and usually are responsible defensively for guarding the point. Some different systems utilize them differently, but basically, split the zone into a pentagon on both ends and it’s a circle of responsibility at each end. Wings at the points, d in the corners, and c between circles on D and vice versa on O.

Playmaking vs sniper vs power forward is based upon the talents of the player. Igor Larionov was a playmaking C because his vision was outstanding. Kozlov a sniper because his shot was deadly. Fedorov a hybrid of it all because he was fast, big, had a wonderful shot and great hands.
I think ASP took care of most of it, but I'll add my take. As you said, hockey is reactive, but you try to run a system and then adapt it situationally. Most systems usually give certain positions a pretty similar set of responsibilities. So you just kind of figure out the various situations and how you'll play it.

So for defending a rush, most teams have 1 or 2 wingers forecheck, and then back check if the puck gets by. Meanwhile the center will cover the middle of the ice and try to be down ice from the other team's players- maintaining a gap as you move back. This usually means a set of two or three people setting up a bottleneck at the blueline, composed of the center and either the other 2 D or 1D and a winger that also cuts back. That leaves the goalie and perhaps one D to collect chips and move them back up ice. Once past the blueline, the center drifts to the high net front and supports the D trying to cover the puck carrier.

Then you have your defensive systems. Most teams play a zone defense. The D oscillate between the net and the wall, the side of the ice that the puck is on dictating who is chasing. The center stays in the high slot, pressing lower or higher as the puck goes and cycling to block passing lanes. The wingers cover the two D at the point. After turning the puck over, usually one winger will fly the zone to provide an out, a rush chance and pull back the other team's D. One winger will cycle high, and the center will cycle lower, providing the easiest out and preparing to support the rush. The two D play catch, cycle with each other and look for their passing ops or a rush chance.

Once you're rushing, your wingers press as fast as possible. Most centers try to maintain the ability to get back if they turn it over. Entering the zone often means chipping to a winger that presses or giving it to one to protect just inside the blue line while the other winger and center press into the zone for passing options. Ideally though, the wingers lead the way and the center stays a bit further back.

In zone, the center plays the high slot, and the wingers move between the net and the corners depending on which side of the ice the puck is on, similar to the D on the other end. Your center will provide an easy passing option to a winger trying to collect a puck in the corner. Otherwise, they cycle high, hoping to pinch into the slot for a shot. Then your two D play the point, also sliding left and right based on which side of the ice the puck is on.

All of this means that usually you want your centers and wingers to have certain skills. Your wingers end up with more shooting options, and your center usually need to distribute the puck through difficult coverage. So usually you want your wingers to be better shooters and your centers better passers. But the center often is shooting from further out, more fitting for snipers and power shooters than wingers that often just need a quick wrist shot to be effective. The center has to cover a ton of ice, and be prepared to defend skating backwards. The wingers really need to be able to turn and burn, but don't have to cover as much ice total. Your center often needs to defend against heavy players around the net, and thus needs to have more strengths size and reach. Your wingers need to be able to escape coverage and make retrievals. That usually means being fast and small to be shifty or particularly strong so that you can dominate space.

Of course, every player has to be good at everything to be at all effective in the NHL. Everyone has to be able to at least fill in somewhat competently at anyone's position. If you have a player with a special skill that breaks the mold, that's not at all a problem. The fact that Austin Matthews is a center doesn't make his super quick release on his wrist shot any less of an asset.

Sometimes you adapt a super typical system like what's above around a particular player's skill set- Kucherov is a great distance shooter and a very creative passer- but is slow and sucks at defense- so he plays the half wall in the zone, and plays the 3F on rushes. Thus his center has to cut low for him AND be able to cover extra distance getting back if the puck is turned over anyway- which is only possible because it's the crazy fast Point. Similarly, McDavid often plays the 1F or 2F despite being the center because he can lead the rush and the back check.

I can't use Detroit for these examples because our systems have been a mess for years.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jkutswings

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
11,453
9,419
I think ASP took care of most of it, but I'll add my take. As you said, hockey is reactive, but you try to run a system and then adapt it situationally. Most systems usually give certain positions a pretty similar set of responsibilities. So you just kind of figure out the various situations and how you'll play it.

So for defending a rush, most teams have 1 or 2 wingers forecheck, and then back check if the puck gets by. Meanwhile the center will cover the middle of the ice and try to be down ice from the other team's players- maintaining a gap as you move back. This usually means a set of two or three people setting up a bottleneck at the blueline, composed of the center and either the other 2 D or 1D and a winger that also cuts back. That leaves the goalie and perhaps one D to collect chips and move them back up ice. Once past the blueline, the center drifts to the high net front and supports the D trying to cover the puck carrier.

Then you have your defensive systems. Most teams play a zone defense. The D oscillate between the net and the wall, the side of the ice that the puck is on dictating who is chasing. The center stays in the high slot, pressing lower or higher as the puck goes and cycling to block passing lanes. The wingers cover the two D at the point. After turning the puck over, usually one winger will fly the zone to provide an out, a rush chance and pull back the other team's D. One winger will cycle high, and the center will cycle lower, providing the easiest out and preparing to support the rush. The two D play catch, cycle with each other and look for their passing ops or a rush chance.

Once you're rushing, your wingers press as fast as possible. Most centers try to maintain the ability to get back if they turn it over. Entering the zone often means chipping to a winger that presses or giving it to one to protect just inside the blue line while the other winger and center press into the zone for passing options. Ideally though, the wingers lead the way and the center stays a bit further back.

In zone, the center plays the high slot, and the wingers move between the net and the corners depending on which side of the ice the puck is on, similar to the D on the other end. Your center will provide an easy passing option to a winger trying to collect a puck in the corner. Otherwise, they cycle high, hoping to pinch into the slot for a shot. Then your two D play the point, also sliding left and right based on which side of the ice the puck is on.

All of this means that usually you want your centers and wingers to have certain skills. Your wingers end up with more shooting options, and your center usually need to distribute the puck through difficult coverage. So usually you want your wingers to be better shooters and your centers better passers. But the center often is shooting from further out, more fitting for snipers and power shooters than wingers that often just need a quick wrist shot to be effective. The center has to cover a ton of ice, and be prepared to defend skating backwards. The wingers really need to be able to turn and burn, but don't have to cover as much ice total. Your center often needs to defend against heavy players around the net, and thus needs to have more strengths size and reach. Your wingers need to be able to escape coverage and make retrievals. That usually means being fast and small to be shifty or particularly strong so that you can dominate space.

Of course, every player has to be good at everything to be at all effective in the NHL. Everyone has to be able to at least fill in somewhat competently at anyone's position. If you have a player with a special skill that breaks the mold, that's not at all a problem. The fact that Austin Matthews is a center doesn't make his super quick release on his wrist shot any less of an asset.

Sometimes you adapt a super typical system like what's above around a particular player's skill set- Kucherov is a great distance shooter and a very creative passer- but is slow and sucks at defense- so he plays the half wall in the zone, and plays the 3F on rushes. Thus his center has to cut low for him AND be able to cover extra distance getting back if the puck is turned over anyway- which is only possible because it's the crazy fast Point. Similarly, McDavid often plays the 1F or 2F despite being the center because he can lead the rush and the back check.

I can't use Detroit for these examples because our systems have been a mess for years.
Great analysis. I was originally going to add to the conversation that it's not just where each forward is positioned, but what they do with and without the puck while they're there. But you did so with a much better level of detail. Thanks!
 
  • Like
Reactions: HisNoodliness

Axel Sandy Pelikan

Sugar-free Rock Star
May 11, 2023
1,503
1,682
Perfect, thanks!

If I may be allowed a follow-up? :)

Why is it deemed "hard" to switch between wing and center? If it's positional can't player X just learn a different spot of responsibility on the ice? Or is it mostly face-offs? (Which are still black magic to me.)
Everything in sports now is ridiculously specialized. Face-offs are a big one, which is why guys like Jay McClement, Paul Gaustad, Saku Koivu and others have ludicrously long careers. They're good on the dot.

They can switch, but it's like changing from being a left guard to a right guard in the NFL. Everything is flip-flopped and your muscle-memory for things isn't as good. Like, they can all obviously play any position, but professional sports are honestly pretty refined to... if you are a split second slower because you're not used to it, you're then out of position and worthless. Like most of the guys we bitch about? They're extremely talented at hockey and are only missing by a inch. Like the 2019-2020 Wings, the worst ones ever, had a lot of guys who were NHL players at one point.

They can learn it which is why you have centers transition to wing for the PP and such. It's why handedness matters quite a bit too. The guys on their off-hand side either end up catching the puck on their backhand. Like a right shot LD has to catch the puck on the wall on his backhand, but can rip clappers on one-timers.
 

Axel Sandy Pelikan

Sugar-free Rock Star
May 11, 2023
1,503
1,682
Great analysis. I was originally going to add to the conversation that it's not just where each forward is positioned, but what they do with and without the puck while they're there. But you did so with a much better level of detail. Thanks!
Yeah, I gave the cliffs notes version. Obviously you can expound on it... but in very general terms, the plan is cutting the zone into those areas. It's why you can so often say "That was X's guy and X f***ed up".
 

dalem177

Plausible Keats
Oct 4, 2021
5,010
4,223
Minnesota
THANK YOU FELLAS!

Those were great breakdowns and clear some things up for me!

TV fan for ... (jebus) ... 28 years? but never played. Thanks again!
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad