Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid: Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions

[PALE PWNR]

1 - The value of that pick is not derived from what has happened in the past. What happened 5 years ago is not relevant let alone what happened 20 or 30 years ago

2 - The value of the pick isn't related to what the flyers specifically have done with it. It's based on what teams across the league value it at.

3 - There's no reason to focus on the 4th round specifically. They've drafted plenty of players after this round, with less valuable picks. You are cherry picking this aspect

Define plenty of players? At any given time the amount of players in the NHL taken after the 3rd round is around 15%. The probability that you get a player that plays more than 100 games at that spot is in the single digits.

 

[GKJ]

It's not about the pick, it's about the process. They can get the pick back any time they want. They want to build and evaluate, so they shouldn't be putting guys ahead of Zamula and Attard and even Ginning, unless it's someone they got for free, or they got a player who would be here next season.

 

[DancingPanther]

Define plenty of players? At any given time the amount of players in the NHL taken after the 3rd round is around 15%. The probability that you get a player that plays more than 100 games at that spot is in the single digits.

Right, so if you are building for the future you should be acquiring more picks to increase your chances of selecting a meaningful player. If not one that plays for you, one that can be used as a B level asset for future trades.

I know that you understand this. It's such a basic line of thinking

 

[FLYguy3911]

That’s so random.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Right, so if you are building for the future you should be acquiring more picks to increase your chances of selecting a meaningful player. If not one that plays for you, one that can be used as a B level asset for future trades.

I know that you understand this. It's such a basic line of thinking

And it's equally as basic to understand that the team clearly values the culture in the locker room along with having a successful leadership group that can help grow and develop those young players into successful NHL talent. Both things are important. And both a 4th round pick and Erik Johnson are about equally unimportant. Yet you'd think the sky was falling based on the reaction here.

 

[DancingPanther]

And it's equally as basic to understand that the team clearly values the culture in the locker room along with having a successful leadership group that can help grow and develop those young players into successful NHL talent. Both things are important. And both a 4th round pick and Erik Johnson are about equally unimportant. Yet you'd think the sky was falling based on the reaction here.

Sure, that's also basic. In the same way that someone tells you the earth is flat. Just look toward the horizon. It's a basic concept: it looks flat.

Johnson, every night, will make games harder to win. He will play poorly on the whole. We have seasons of data that show he is a poor player. Now, we both understand the chance of a 4th round pick turning into some magnitude of significant NHL impact is very low. However, this chance it is not insignificant. In no situation should you be trading tangible assets with the potential to convey talent for intangible ideas that you know will convey quantitatively poor players. This is a philosophy issue and, the millionth time the Flyers have wildly miscalculated...well- everything. They vastly overvalue intangibles vs quality of play and vastly undervalue their assets in juxtaposition. It's a recipe for disaster.

And by Flyers, more and more I'm believe God Emperor Tortorella and Old Man Clarke (and his circle) are the ones that continuously miscalculate the value of - well, everything.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Keeping the locker room a happy place is a coaching issue.

<3

And coaches don't get enough credit for how hard it is.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Sure, that's also basic. In the same way that someone tells you the earth is flat. Just look toward the horizon. It's a basic concept: it looks flat.

Johnson, every night, will make games harder to win. He will play poorly on the whole. We have seasons of data that show he is a poor player. Now, we both understand the chance of a 4th round pick turning into some magnitude of significant NHL impact is very low. However, this chance it is not insignificant. In no situation should you be trading tangible assets with the potential to convey talent for intangible ideas that you know will convey quantitatively poor players. This is a philosophy issue and, the millionth time the Flyers have wildly miscalculated...well- everything. They vastly overvalue intangibles vs quality of play and vastly undervalue their assets in juxtaposition. It's a recipe for disaster.

And by Flyers, more and more I'm believe God Emperor Tortorella and Old Man Clarke (and his circle) are the ones that continuously miscalculate the value of - well, everything.

Except the idea that the earth is flat is an objective falsehood, while the idea that intangibles are meaningless is a nuanced and opinionated thought that some will attribute greater value and meaning to while others will not.

 

[Flybynite]

It was a buyers market... Except for when the Flyers gave up a 4th for a 35 year old who was the 7th defenseman on Buffalo

 

[GKJ]

 

[Flybynite]

Just as I predicted, Charlie just lobbed a total loaded question to Briere about "Is it fair to say this rebuild has an emphasis on culture?"

I didnt watxh, but I presume the interaction started with

Hey Danny, Charlie here... You did a good job as your first trade deadline, do you think not being able to look another GM in the eyes and have him get lost in your gaze hurts you?

 

[Beef Invictus]

He's bad, but given the kinds of players GMs will bite on at the deadline he isn't "cannot be moved at tiny cap hit" bad. There could perhaps be some deeper reputation problem in the Hockey Man circles.

 

[wankstifier]

I don’t think they realized that they bailed out Colorado.

 

[GKJ]

He's bad, but given the kinds of players GMs will bite on at the deadline he isn't "cannot be moved at tiny cap hit" bad. There could perhaps be some deeper reputation problem in the Hockey Man circles.

Well, yesterday in so many words they said they wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire, but as long as it's important that they remain transparant.

In theory, they could still trade him if someone might be interested in him for next season. Just can't play in the playoffs.

Anyone catch STG's deadline show?

 

[Magua]

Define plenty of players? At any given time the amount of players in the NHL taken after the 3rd round is around 15%. The probability that you get a player that plays more than 100 games at that spot is in the single digits.

There's two end games to this logic: either these picks are low % and, by dint of reductio ad absurdum, you should always trade them......or you pick in volume, increasing the %s.

You're right in that 4th rounder probably ends up nothing. But you don't know that -- no one knows that. Every team in the league, especially the good ones, is littered with players selected from the 3rd-7th rounds (or undrafted!). Not just depth players. It's part of a larger theme in that this team has no initiative to acquire high 1sts, while also not selecting in volume. That's a dead end. Carolina just turned two late 2nd prospects and a 4th round prospect into Jake Guentzel. And these picks are liquid; they can be used to trade up, trade for a more positive depth player, whatever.

What the Flyers have done in the 4th round specifically has as much future bearing as what they've done at 2nd overall. Or looking at the last dozen 16th overall picks to prove no one good gets selected there. Or saying the Ristolainen trade was fine because of who the Sabres took. The good players are there, and you can do whatever the hell you want with that pick.

****

Separately, no one disagrees that veterans are important. But they do need to clear a bar of being NHL caliber. Everything you're arguing, doesn't Marc Staal qualify? They got him for free. And he's bad. But better than Johnson. Honestly, what exactly is Erik Johnson imparting in a month+, while the plan is to also (hopefully) sit him when they're healthier? Trading 4ths for burnt to a crisp veterans isn't a winning strategy.

Matt Niskanen *drink shot* was everything you're describing: recent Cup winner and mentor, while actually being the best defenseman on the Flyers. Result afterwards? 3 years of regression from all their young players. Bad teams overstate things like this too.

 

[Fight4yourRight]

He's bad, but given the kinds of players GMs will bite on at the deadline he isn't "cannot be moved at tiny cap hit" bad. There could perhaps be some deeper reputation problem in the Hockey Man circles.

He fell out pretty hard with the Colorado locker room, by all accounts. I don’t quite believe in “culture” the way the Flyers apparently believe in cultivating it, but lazy player first pieces of shit like Hayes DeAngelo and RyJo can f*** off.

 

[PALE PWNR]

There's two end games to this logic: either these picks are low % and, by dint of reductio ad absurdum, you should always trade them......or you pick in volume, increasing the %s.

You're right in that 4th rounder probably ends up nothing. But you don't know that -- no one knows that. Every team in the league, especially the good ones, is littered with players selected from the 3rd-7th rounds (or undrafted!). Not just depth players. It's part of a larger theme in that this team has no initiative to acquire high 1sts, while also not selecting in volume. That's a dead end. Carolina just turned two late 2nd prospects and a 4th round prospect into Jake Guentzel. And these picks are liquid; they can be used to trade up, trade for a more positive depth player, whatever.

What the Flyers have done in the 4th round specifically has as much future bearing as what they've done at 2nd overall. Or looking at the last dozen 16th overall picks to prove no one good gets selected there. Or saying the Ristolainen trade was fine because of who the Sabres took. The good players are there, and you can do whatever the hell you want with that pick.

****

Separately, no one disagrees that veterans are important. But they do need to clear a bar of being NHL caliber. Everything you're arguing, doesn't Marc Staal qualify? They got him for free. And he's bad. But better than Johnson. Honestly, what exactly is Erik Johnson imparting in a month+, while the plan is to also (hopefully) sit him when they're healthier? Trading 4ths for burnt to a crisp veterans isn't a winning strategy.

Matt Niskanen *drink shot* was everything you're describing: recent Cup winner and mentor, while actually being the best defenseman on the Flyers. Result afterwards? 3 years of regression from all their young players. Bad teams overstate things like this too.

You should always trade them if you believe you are getting positive value back for them. And clearly the team thinks they are with EJ. What is he imparting? No idea. Nobody on this board knows.

 

[Danko]

He's bad, but given the kinds of players GMs will bite on at the deadline he isn't "cannot be moved at tiny cap hit" bad. There could perhaps be some deeper reputation problem in the Hockey Man circles.

One of the Avs writers already came out and said the core players for the avs "soured" on RyJo over the last two weeks and that they wanted him out.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I might be reading into this more than necessary. But this reads as slightly concerning to me. Kind of sounds like they thought there was potential for value there

 

[LegionOfGloom]

You should always trade them if you believe you are getting positive value back for them. And clearly the team thinks they are with EJ. What is he imparting? No idea. Nobody on this board knows.

Ah, so it's a good trade because obviously the Flyers must have their reasons and who could question their judgment given this run of sustained excellence.

 

[Beef Invictus]

One of the Avs writers already came out and said the core players for the avs "soured" on RyJo over the last two weeks and that they wanted him out.

I suspect this kind of irreparable rift takes more than two weeks to grow. The post-game incident might have been the final straw, but I've gotta assume straws have been piling onto the camel for longer.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

You should always trade them if you believe you are getting positive value back for them. And clearly the team thinks they are with EJ. What is he imparting? No idea. Nobody on this board knows.

Continually qualifying "the org thinks" on everything isn't the argument winning line you seem to think it is.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Ah, so it's a good trade because obviously the Flyers must have their reasons and who could question their judgment given this run of sustained excellence.

The management group is new. You are acting like you were spurned by a past girlfriend and are taking it out on your current one

Continually qualifying "the org thinks" on everything isn't the argument winning line you seem to think it is.

Logically you don't trade a positive asset for a negative one for shits and giggles

 

[Danko]

I suspect this kind of irreparable rift takes more than two weeks to grow. The post-game incident might have been the final straw, but I've gotta assume straws have been piling onto the camel for longer.

Nate Dog was pissed he wouldn't stop eating pizza and drinking margs

 

[LegionOfGloom]

The management group is new. You are acting like you were spurned by a past girlfriend and are taking it out on your current one


Logically you don't trade a positive asset for a negative one for shits and giggles

Then just say you're ok with the trade because you're willing to give the new ex-Flyers running the team the benefit of the doubt. That's a totally subjective thing and everyone is entitled to give them whatever benefit of the doubt that they want. But instead you said this was a good trade, brought important culture and leadership that has tangible benefits and only now retreating to this.