Online Series: The Wheel of Time (Prime Video, Nov 22)

[NyQuil]

I think holding the show to the standard of Game of Thrones is just folly in itself. Despite the bad last two seasons, I feel like Game of Thrones is a once-in-a-decade type of show in terms of quality and adaptation (similar to how LoTR is for fantasy movies). I think if that is the bar set for WoT to match, you have nowhere to go besides disappointment.

It's also important to remember that GoT had the same impact on the fantasy literature community as it did in the television watching community. So it's not just about the adaptation.

Wheel of Time was a must-read for fantasy fans, but it didn't inspire the same kind of "OMG! YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT!" type reaction that ASOIAF inspired. Conversations would start with "You're reading Storm of Swords? What page are you on? What just happened? Ok, call me when you finish that chapter."

WoT was a lovingly executed exhibition of world crafting with an expansive cast that approaches War and Peace, but it's not something that I would easily recommend to non-fantasy readers.

I told everyone, fantasy reader or not, to read Game of Thrones.

When I'd learned that HBO was adapting it, I knew it would be a major hit, because it's a page turner that de-emphasizes a lot of the fantasy tropes in favour of cheap thrills, an expansive and fascinating feudal society, flimsy plot armour, and well-conceived characters that could be hard to characterize as either hero or villain.

GoT to me isn't really a fantasy show, I think, is what it comes down to IMO. It's a medieval soap opera feudal family drama. There's nothing quite like it in the fantasy genre, and to continue to characterize it as such inevitably means that subsequent fantasy adaptations will inevitably fail to measure up. I can't really think of any other fantasy works that have that kind of mainstream appeal. It has more in common with the Sopranos or Boardwalk Empire.

WoT will never win any Emmys because the source material simply isn't meaty enough, no matter what channel adapted it or who the actors are. We all like Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve and Co. but they are ultimately fairly one-dimensional when it comes down to it.

 

[NyQuil]

Seems even long time fans of the books like the series including some of the changes from the books.

I think that this will comprise the largest and most vocal contingent of the viewing audience.

I'll admit to getting a charge out of seeing the Aes Sedai in person.

Rosamund Pike does an excellent job of the intimidating "ageless look" that they possess.

 

[beowulf]

I think that this will comprise the largest and most vocal contingent of the viewing audience.

I'll admit to getting a charge out of seeing the Aes Sedai in person.

Rosamund Pike does an excellent job of the intimidating "ageless look" that they possess.

The scene in the middle of town with her using her magic for the first time was well done.

 

[NyQuil]

The scene in the middle of town with her using her magic for the first time was well done.

There are some jaded critics making fun of it, but it takes some serious acting skill to wave your arms around when everything is done in post-production.

Any fantasy needs a solid actor as the foundational character to build credibility for the more fantastical elements - whether you're Alec Guinness or Ian MacKellan, it's a crucial role that can make or break your series.

So far, Rosamund Pike has delivered the goods.

 

[NyQuil]

"Looking forward to the next episodes and hopefully seeing the show all the way to the Last Battle," while another added: "As someone who has been living with these books as a HUGE part of my life for 30 years, I can say in all honesty... I love it. I love them. I understand the changes. I'm invested. I want more."

Thankfully, there's a lot that they could probably cut and not even alienate the hardcore fans if they want to conclude the series before the actors quit or die.

I think most people will cut them slack in that department.

I remember with the Hobbit, I was really perturbed because they actually cut huge moments from the actual book (e.g. the dwarves arriving two-by-two meeting with Beorn, or his fairly crucial involvement in the Battle of the Five Armies, the funeral for Thorin) despite the fact that they had wayyyy more screentime than they needed (3 movies? WTF?) and incorporated all kinds of crap that were only alluded to (e.g. the raid on Dol Guldur by the White Council, Legolas present in the Hobbit) and even a new character (who I didn't mind, but geez, include the book stuff).

 

[beowulf]

Thankfully, there's a lot that they could probably cut and not even alienate the hardcore fans if they want to conclude the series before the actors quit or die.

I think most people will cut them slack in that department.

I remember with the Hobbit, I was really perturbed because they actually cut huge moments from the actual book (e.g. the dwarves arriving two-by-two meeting with Beorn, or his fairly crucial involvement in the Battle of the Five Armies, the funeral for Thorin) despite the fact that they had wayyyy more screentime than they needed (3 movies? WTF?) and incorporated all kinds of crap that were only alluded to (e.g. the raid on Dol Guldur by the White Council, Legolas present in the Hobbit) and even a new character (who I didn't mind, but geez, include the book stuff).

I was looking for a list of the books in reading order and it was funny to see that to listen to all the audio books would take 19 days 5 hours and 25 minutes straight of your life!! So ya lots of content and unless they plan on this going on for a decade, the might very well have to cut here and there.

 

[NyQuil]

I was looking for a list of the books in reading order and it was funny to see that to listen to all the audio books would take 19 days 5 hours and 25 minutes straight of your life!! So ya lots of content and unless they plan on this going on for a decade, the might very well have to cut here and there.

Well, about 20% of that is Robert Jordan describing the colour and cut of the dresses in every scene that a woman is in.

Altogether she was like no one he had ever seen before. The wide hood of her cloak framed her face and dark hair, hanging in soft ringlets. He had never seen a grown woman with her hair unbraided; every girl in the Two Rivers waited eagerly for the Women’s Circle of her village to say she was old enough to wear a braid. Her clothes were just as strange. Her cloak was sky-blue velvet, with thick silver embroidery, leaves and vines and flowers, all along the edges. Her dress gleamed faintly as she moved, a darker blue than the cloak, and slashed with cream. A necklace of heavy gold links hung around her neck, while another gold chain, delicate and fastened in her hair, supported a small, sparkling blue stone in the middle of her forehead. A wide belt of woven gold encircled her waist, and on the second finger of her left hand was a gold ring in the shape of a serpent biting its own tail. He had certainly never seen a ring like that, though he recognized the Great Serpent, an even older symbol for eternity than the Wheel of Time.

This is a really interesting article (with some spoilers) so I wouldn't check it out if you haven't read the books:

A Statistical Analysis of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time - B&N Reads

 

[Nizdizzle]

One of the changes from the books that we saw in the first 3 episodes is Perrin's backstory, which is understandably necessary (and I think a lot more to come) because so much of his development in the books is done in internal monologues. It would not translate well to TV. I think they way they've changed his character for the show is good so far, showing a reason for him to fear losing control of himself.

I was looking for a list of the books in reading order and it was funny to see that to listen to all the audio books would take 19 days 5 hours and 25 minutes straight of your life!! So ya lots of content and unless they plan on this going on for a decade, the might very well have to cut here and there.

I think I started reading the Wheel of time in December 2018 and finished it in December 2019, reading about 6-8 hours a week (approximate). I never read the prequel book. I remember for a week or two after finishing the books I fell into a bit of a depression as it felt like something significant had just ended for me.

Remembering back though, there is a whole bunch of things in the middle and late in the series that can easily be condensed, reworked, or straight up removed and I don't think the adaptation will suffer all that much for it.

 

[NyQuil]

One of the changes from the books that we saw in the first 3 episodes is Perrin's backstory, which is understandably necessary (and I think a lot more to come) because so much of his development in the books is done in internal monologues. It would not translate well to TV. I think they way they've changed his character for the show is good so far, showing a reason for him to fear losing control of himself.

Yeah, I was confused because I didn't remember him being married.

I think the last time I read the books in their entirety was in university, so we're looking at the mid to late 90s for Eye of the World.

I did spend some time on the Wiki from time to time to re-remember.

 

[beowulf]

Well, about 20% of that is Robert Jordan describing the colour and cut of the dresses in every scene that a woman is in.



This is a really interesting article (with some spoilers) so I wouldn't check it out if you haven't read the books:

A Statistical Analysis of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time - B&N Reads

YA people say Stephen King can be wordy but the prequel of Wheel of Time is 122,000+ words and is by far the shortest book. The others are all between 220,000 and about 390,000 words.

 

[NyQuil]

YA people say Stephen King can be wordy but the prequel of Wheel of Time is 122,000+ words and is by far the shortest book. The others are all between 220,000 and about 390,000 words.

 

[Warden of the North]

I think holding the show to the standard of Game of Thrones is just folly in itself. Despite the bad last two seasons, I feel like Game of Thrones is a once-in-a-decade type of show in terms of quality and adaptation (similar to how LoTR is for fantasy movies). I think if that is the bar set for WoT to match, you have nowhere to go besides disappointment.

It's widely reported that Amazon themselves viewed this as their Game of Thrones. If they're going to look at it through that lens, why shouldnt we?

 

[NyQuil]

It's widely reported that Amazon themselves viewed this as their Game of Thrones. If they're going to look at it through that lens, why shouldnt we?

Meh, just wishful thinking and buzz-building on their part.

 

[Osprey]

I've seen only the first episode so far, but I, too, got a bit of a "young adult" vibe. The lead male, especially, seems a bit pretty for a poor villager. One thing that I liked about GoT is that a lot of the characters weren't exactly "good looking." Tyrion, Samwell, Sandor, Brienne, Bronn, Lysa and even Arya are examples. It helped to make Westeros feel like a real place, not a "fantasy" world with only pretty people in it. Of course, it didn't really start out that way, as Season 1 was more about pretty people, so we'll see where this series goes.

That's what I thought but don't get the whole gf thing when it was about training yada yada.

It was a joke.

The scene in the middle of town with her using her magic for the first time was well done.

I thought that the shots of her using the magic didn't look that good, myself. Brightness tends to make CGI look more fake. The darker shots with the trollocs getting pummeled looked excellent, though. Overall, it was an impressive amount of CGI for a TV show, especially largely done remotely.

 

[RandV]

I was looking for a list of the books in reading order and it was funny to see that to listen to all the audio books would take 19 days 5 hours and 25 minutes straight of your life!! So ya lots of content and unless they plan on this going on for a decade, the might very well have to cut here and there.

I think using LOTR makes a good example of what went wrong. The cast of lead characters in WoT grows to about the same size as the "fellowship", except instead of Tolkien breaking them up into 2-3 groups and simultaneous story lines, imagine if he kept writing LotR longer and breaking up the groups further until every member of the fellowship was running their own individual storyline and it was all happening in parallel with each other. Tolkien kept things smooth by limiting the parallel storylines. GRRM handled his big separated cast smoothly (at least at first) by making the storylines sequential instead of parallel, most of what they do is left off page. Jordan combined the two in the worst way possible to create a monster

So the long term challenge in the adaption will be how to shrink and hold things together, limiting characters from running off on their own separate adventures.

 

[MadDevil]

The series kind of bogged down for a few books there, so they should be able to streamline or just cut parts out of those.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It's widely reported that Amazon themselves viewed this as their Game of Thrones. If they're going to look at it through that lens, why shouldnt we?

I thought their LOTR series was supposed to be their GOT.

Amazon’s ‘The Lord of the Rings’ to Cost $465M for Just One Season

There are also rumors it’s supposed to be raunchy like GOT… which has some LOTR fans upset (as if Elves and Goblins don’t get it on).

Tolkien fans aghast at possible 'Game of Thrones'-style sex heading for Amazon's 'Lord of the Rings'

 

[beowulf]

It's widely reported that Amazon themselves viewed this as their Game of Thrones. If they're going to look at it through that lens, why shouldnt we?

I have read that they have said the same thing of the upcoming LotR world show also.

 

[apoptygma]

The first 2 WoT books arent that strong. Specialy the first is a very standard young hero travels far, saves the world thingy. Some characters that are really fleshed out later and are very important for the whole story is very bland until late (specialy Mat). GoT had the problem of having the strongest books first, and that together with the show cathcing up to and going past the books ending up in a disaster. WoT are having the opposite problem, weak books at the start then getting much better quality from book 3 onwards. Robert Jordan was stealing a bit to much from LotR at the begining of the saga imo.

Episode 1 of WoT was a dissapointment, it was stressed, and in my opinion they could have cut/shortened some parts of it and added some other things to make a better end product.
Episode 2 was better, and episode 3 the best so far. The have changed some stuff from the books, and for almost everything its understood why, or even an upgrade for the original source material.

One thing that irks me is that Edmonds Field is set in the mountains, but from everything i can remember all of the settled parts of the Two Rivers is in the flatlands east of the Sand Hills, and a good way from the Mountains of Mist.

 

[Nizdizzle]

The first 2 WoT books arent that strong. Specialy the first is a very standard young hero travels far, saves the world thingy. Some characters that are really fleshed out later and are very important for the whole story is very bland until late (specialy Mat). GoT had the problem of having the strongest books first, and that together with the show cathcing up to and going past the books ending up in a disaster. WoT are having the opposite problem, weak books at the start then getting much better quality from book 3 onwards. Robert Jordan was stealing a bit to much from LotR at the begining of the saga imo.

Episode 1 of WoT was a dissapointment, it was stressed, and in my opinion they could have cut/shortened some parts of it and added some other things to make a better end product.
Episode 2 was better, and episode 3 the best so far. The have changed some stuff from the books, and for almost everything its understood why, or even an upgrade for the original source material.

One thing that irks me is that Edmonds Field is set in the mountains, but from everything i can remember all of the settled parts of the Two Rivers is in the flatlands east of the Sand Hills, and a good way from the Mountains of Mist.

Does that significantly change anything? I can't see how that would be a sticking point for someone, unless you are just very passionate about flatlands (or hate mountains).

 

[TheAngryHank]

In GoT we got a glimpse of a Waite..army of the dead..but didn't find out about the real threat till later.. Stark was the king of the north but when his buddy Barathion showed up with all the fan fair it was clear the pecking order. They took time developing characters for us to like or not.
WoT ,the threat came right away and I don't know shit about anyone.
I didn't like how the trollocs were on their heels and "hey look ,a deep river" then again and "hey look ,a city they won't go in" what great fortune. I don't buy stuff like that. We know they are after them ,use that time to make someone interesting.

 

[TheAngryHank]

I love the landscape in some shots,that can equil GoT.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

In GoT we got a glimpse of a Waite..army of the dead..but didn't find out about the real threat till later.. Stark was the king of the north but when his buddy Barathion showed up with all the fan fair it was clear the pecking order. They took time developing characters for us to like or not.
WoT ,the threat came right away and I don't know shit about anyone.
I didn't like how the trollocs were on their heels and "hey look ,a deep river" then again and "hey look ,a city they won't go in" what great fortune. I don't buy stuff like that. We know they are after them ,use that time to make someone interesting.

We did have the scenes in GOT where the army of the dead and the Night King wouldn’t chase John across the water and then the ice.

The dead were already dead so kind of didn’t make sense if you think about it - at least the trollocs are alive and using some common sense.

I can’t remember GOT very beginning, but I kind of recall the first things we saw were the Night King and those guys running away.

But I guess you meant the main characters being under attack from the threat?

 

[apoptygma]

Does that significantly change anything? I can't see how that would be a sticking point for someone, unless you are just very passionate about flatlands (or hate mountains).

Lol, does not change anything at all, just me beeing picky about stuff that does not matter at all. I guess it helped me to get the tv-show away from how i imaginated everything in my head from the get go. Just felt a little weird. Liked the show when i watched it, and the more i think over the changes the better they seems. With Mat as my favourite character in the books, I really like how they have remade him from a whiny brat he is in the 2 first books.

 

[RandV]

I have read that they have said the same thing of the upcoming LotR world show also.

Amazon is hedging their bets with two shows here trying to find there own 'Game of Thrones'. The comparison inevitably becomes silly, as what the business side really wants to replicate is the success of GoT but these aren't the creative minds and an existing property that is equal to Martin's ASoIF doesn't exist. So what the business does is buy up the rights to a different big fantasy series and say 'we're making a new GoT!'. Now these are all amazing series in their own right but LotR/WoT are apples and ASoIF is an orange.

Kind of reminds me of the 90's when parents/adults would refer to every video game as a "Nintendo".