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Blue Jays Discussion: The trade deadline has passed. Time to see what this can do (most acquisitions expected to be present Thursday in Minnesota)

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I don't see how this is such a terrible move. Gives John more options in late game situations. This guy is a terrific defender with great speed. That’s an asset to have on the bench, especially in a playoff game.
 
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The Nemesis said:
It's not pretending the playoffs don't exist, it's not using the playoffs to prop up the case of a person who wouldn't otherwise get nearly the same attention.

I also kind of laugh at "it isn't the hall of statistics" when a great many cases even in the old days were built on statistics that the old guard were comfortable with instead of new ones. 3,000 hits, 200 wins, 500 hrs, whatever else.

stats matter until they don't
context matters until it doesn't
'value' matters until it gets used to defend a player not deemed good enough in other regards.
character matters until it doesn't

It's a moving target that means whatever the people voting players in want it to mean in order to get the players they want in.

Lance Berkman has a WS win, is a noted playoff performer, and had a Morris-esque case of "hall of the very good who you might argue HOF merits on" for his regular season career. He's very much in the mold of Jack Morris' HOF case.

He dropped off the ballot in his first year.

Orel Hershiser has MVPs in the WS, both LCS, a Cy Young and ticks some traditional compiling stat boxes like 200 wins.

His best performance on any HOF ballot was just over 11% of the vote. He later fell off the ballot and was eventually re-evaluated by the Veterans Committee and denied there (the same Veterans' committee that elected everyone's favorite dead horse of a "how the hell is he in the HOF?" candidate, Harold Baines.

Carlos Beltran is considered by some to be a borderline candidate who might not make it even if you ignore his potential contributions to the Astros' sign-stealing scandal. He was a great playoff performer.

Gary Sheffield was a strong playoff performer too, especially LCS/World Series games. he also notched 500 dingers and nearly hit .300 for his career while averaging 100 RBIs a year (I acknowledge that RBIs are a garbage stat for gauging personal performance but the HOF likes it, so here we are). He'll likely never come close to sniffing the HOF because reasons and probably also in part because he was kind of a knob.

HOF credentials get dressed up in this "I know it when I see it" vagaries with regards to any aspect of potential value as a means of protecting the fact that it's horribly inconsistently applied and is subject to the whims of people who will screech loudly about what the criteria aren't without being able to define what they are in a meaningfully repeatable way.
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Beltran was clearly getting in before the 2017 Astros thing which will probably wreck it for him.

Hershiser should probably be in - it's really weird he isn't as he ticks all the boxes for both new-school and old-school voters - and I would expect he'll get the same treatment as Morris by the Veteran's Committee in a few years.

Sheffield would be in but he's tied to BALCO and that's killed it for him.

Berkman's situation is freaking weird. Was a really anonymous star with very little star quality and he definitely got Stieb'ed.

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Morris also has a huge discrepancy in bWAR (43.5) vs. fWAR (55.8).

Morris' fWAR + postseason results = totally reasonable selection. And he comes out great on the Grey Ink Test and the HOF Monitor. By bWAR, though, not so much. And that's the problem with over-relying on these stats, especially for pitchers - it isn't some universal thing that everyone can agree on.
 
I’m sure this has been made already but Zimmer coming back made me think of this meme


6rkeif.jpg
 
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TF97 said:
I’m sure this has been made already but Zimmer coming back made me think of this meme


6rkeif.jpg
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Beat me to it lmao.

On one hand, it cost them literally nothing so who cares.

On the other, was Shatkins like "why have one offensive black hole that makes the occasional webgem when you can have two?"

Overall mood...meh. Doesn't hurt, doesn't really help. Maybe he's good in the clubhouse idk.
 
With this talent, there is no way they should be so low in categories such as getting a runner in from 3rd with less than 2 outs, or grounding into so many double plays. I mean, we can clearly see how talented they are. Look at the OPS, OPS+, WRC, slugging %, batting average, obviously they can hit. But why do they struggle in some of these situations?
 
mikeyz said:
Its becoming more and more clear now why the Cleveland Guardians fans held an impromptu tailgate party in the parking lot of their stadium in celebration when Shatkins announces they were leaving the organization. Lol.
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I think Shatkins have been ok or sort of good but not great. They did build a 91 win team and a competitive team this year. That's the best I can say.

Bad GM's are Perry Minasian (Angels GM) and Chris Young (Texas GM). These are very bad general managers imo.

Shatkins are probably an ok or somewhat good GM/Pres. They don't seem to make any overly stupid moves but they do lose a bit of value in some trades. Springer and Chapman for example have been very good additions and Manoah was their pick.

AA (Braves) Bendix/Neandar (TB) and Kasten (Dodgers) are great. Houston and St.Louis are also run better.

What makes it painful is we had a top 3 GM in AA and we downgraded by going to Shatkins imo. But I'm not going to write them off yet. Going from good to great is the test for Shaprio and Atkins.
 
Puckstuff said:
I think Shatkins have been ok or sort of good but not great. They did build a 91 win team and a competitive team this year. That's the best I can say.

Bad GM's are Perry Minasian (Angels GM) and Chris Young (Texas GM). These are very bad general managers imo.

Shatkins are probably an ok or somewhat good GM/Pres. They don't seem to make any overly stupid moves but they do lose a bit of value in some trades. Springer and Chapman for example have been very good additions and Manoah was their pick.

AA (Braves) Bendix/Neandar (TB) and Kasten (Dodgers) are great. Houston and St.Louis are also run better.

What makes it painful is we had a top 3 GM in AA and we downgraded by going to Shatkins imo. But I'm not going to write them off yet. Going from good to great is the test for Shaprio and Atkins.
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I wouldn’t say he was top 3 gm with us, no. Team did nothing till second half of 2015. Very mediocre to below average team.
 
Kurtz said:
Sweet sassy molassy:



Is that actually a FB with extraordinary movement or a splitter?
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1st pitcher in MLB history to throw an off-speed pitch 100mph....

What about Emmanuel Clase and his 100mph+ cutter?

Or Jordan Hicks and his 100mph+ sinker?
 
dangomon said:
I’m not arguing that was actually a splitter because I’m not so sure, but a cut fastball and a sinker a certainly not off speed pitches.
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Well by definition an off speed pitch is anything slower than a fastball, those are both pitches that are supposed to be slower than a fastball because they have movement, whether they want to be categorize as off speed or not imo those are off speed pitches since it's not a fastball.
 
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