OT: The Thread About Nothing

[Darkauron]

While I am not much of a hunter myself, I grew up in a very hunter friendly area. Thus I was partially involved learning to shoot with bows, shotguns, fishing ect ect.. But from my experience the average bow hunter was a millioooons times better of a human being compare to those who hunted with guns. The skill, care, and compassion for nature in general was always humbling. I was so turned off by the culture in my area of being more gun-ho and personally not being a fan of killing animals in general that I quit it all. I still enjoy bow target shooting from time time at least

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Bow hunters do a very good job of management. Especially in urban and suburban environments

Safety is never an issue with a bow. You mandate hunting from tree stand, which means shots are going to be at a downward trajectory ...Statistically, more than 80% if whitetail deer are harvested at less than 20 yards. Bow and Arrow accidents are extremely rare, it is typically a close proximity event. Most injuries that occur in bow season are tree stand accidents.

As far as the city. I grew up in Paterson and did a lot of small game hunting along the railroad tracks and behind the factors along the Passaic river with a bow. Squirrels and rabbits mostly. There weren't many deer around but there were some, just not enough to hunt. I shot my bow in backyard almost every day. A back yard in Paterson in the neighborhood I grew up is probably smaller than most peoples kitchen, that maybe true even for some apartments.

One last thing on safety - most people who hunt with a bow and arrow have truly invested the time to become proficient. There aren't too many yahoo's who pick a bow on a whim, it is not really feasible as a certain level of skill is required for entry. With that time invested a whole culture and believe system evolves...An ethic if you will. The limitations are much more apparent and actually a cherished aspect of the sport. I think that all breeds a much different level of responsibility for the average bow hunter.

Fair enough and most of that makes perfect sense. My only question is can bow hunters really make a difference on Staten Island in particular? It seems to me that even if it were legalized, permitted, guided, or what have you, there are a variety of obstacles not present in rural NJ, PA, or NY. Food and lodging being the most obvious to me.

Apparently all this is moot anyway because the city's vasectomy plan seems to be quite effective thus far. I wonder what trapping or darting (I'm assuming this is a term) a buck on Staten Island pays?

Still, shooting bows in a backyard in Paterson is hilarious to me for some reason. One of these days I'll get around to learning how to shoot something.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

While I am not much of a hunter myself, I grew up in a very hunter friendly area. Thus I was partially involved learning to shoot with bows, shotguns, fishing ect ect.. But from my experience the average bow hunter was a millioooons times better of a human being compare to those who hunted with guns. The skill, care, and compassion for nature in general was always humbling. I was so turned off by the culture in my area of being more gun-ho and personally not being a fan of killing animals in general that I quit it all. I still enjoy bow target shooting from time time at least

This pretty much affirms my admittedly ignorant opinion on the matter. I have a friend who runs and archery club in Brooklyn, perhaps I'll take him up on his offer to exchange beer for lessons.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Sorry man, but even for Stanten Island that's a looney tunes idea. It has nothing to do with politics.

A) I highly doubt bow hunters would make a significant dent in the population
B) those parks are not nearly wide enough to guarantee the safety of residents if people are shooting rifles that can take down bucks in them
C) how and for how long do you safely close public parks for and unleash enough hunters to take down enough deer that it effects the population to a significant enough degree?

A) Yes, they absolutely could if a proper wildlife management plan is put in place (with biologists running it and not politicians)
B) That's absurd, obviously nobody would be using "rifles", you cant even hunt will rifles in New Jersey (and FYI, does, not bucks).
C) Easily, just like everywhere else in America (including New Jersey) where this is commonly done.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Utah ftw.

Cheaper tickets and easier access to the mountains. Air bnb right by the canyons and then drive in. Colorado is like 2x the price for lift tickets and accommodations, then if you stay outside of the mountains near Denver you wait in hours of traffic on I-70, that road is a nightmare on weekends.

I also just prefer the slopes in Utah over Colorado, better snow, less people, and more tree skiing.

Assuming the snow is there, Utah is where we'll likely go. We like it better than Colorado anyway.

I wouldnt mind checking out Jackson Hole / Grand Targhee or Big Sky if they get the goods instead though. Last year was a terrible snow year for Utah, but Grand Targhee / Jackson Hole & Montana were pounded. That's why I dont book ski trips until a month out.

 

[BenedictGomez]

yeah, I was about to say... Stray ammunition seems like a totally valid reason to not give out hunting permits *in* NYC. If that's "political" then I give up.

Not to be a d****e, but the very fact you and LikeChristmasMorning even bring up firearm use is indicative of the fact this isn't a subject you guys are very well-versed on. Non sequitur x 1000.

 

[RangerDoggo]

I’d be fine with Staten Island making a successful go of leaving NYC and being its own town.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Apparently all this is moot anyway because the city's vasectomy plan seems to be quite effective thus far.

FACT CHECK: False

Biologically speaking, this is moronic on so many levels. Not to mention egregiously expensive, but hey, it's New York City, they think they have magical money trees there which affords them unlimited spending.

This program is going to fail (after they tell you what a success it's been).

 

[Jack Be Quick]

A) Yes, they absolutely could if a proper wildlife management plan is put in place (with biologists running it and not politicians)
B) That's absurd, obviously nobody would be using "rifles", you cant even hunt will rifles in New Jersey (and FYI, does, not bucks).
C) Easily, just like everywhere else in America this is done (including New Jersey) where this is commonly done.

Well, most people tend to disagree with you. Good luck closing a NYC park so a bunch of rural hunters can camp out and shoot deer in it.

And yes rifles. I think. What other sort of gun are you supposed to shoot a deer with? If it's a shotgun and I am using incorrect terminology, oh well. The point stands. And I imagine bucks are a better idea since they're fewer in numbers. Apparently the city agrees with me since they're giving them vasectomies and leaving the does be.

And dude, this is New York City, not Sussex County. I already posted an example of Dallas having similar if not identical restrictions. So no, this is absolutely not commonly done in urban areas in the US. Does New Brunswick have a hunting season I'm unaware of? Of course it doesnt.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

FACT CHECK: False

Biologically speaking, this is moronic on so many levels. Not to mention egregiously expensive, but hey, it's New York City, they think they have magical money trees there which affords them unlimited spending.

This program is going to fail (after they tell you what a success it's been).

Care to provide a source? Everything I've read states that while the project is over budget (by 300k, or .00000353% of the city's budget and I'm good with that) the population has decreased 8% since the program began. And how is it moronic biologically speaking? No fertile nuts, no reproduction. Although I'm not quite sure why neutering isn't an option given that it seems like a cheaper alternative.

I mean it is kind of a magical money tree. We can always tack on another dollar to the holland/lincoln/outerbridge tolls or .5% on to the commuter tax. Not like that will stop anyone from crossing.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Well, most people tend to disagree with you. Good luck closing a NYC park so a bunch of rural hunters can camp out and shoot deer in it.

And that's THEIR problem. People spouting off on a subject they know nothing about, and/or being politically anti-hunting. But their ideological beliefs and lack of subject knowledge does not alter the fact that wildlife management hunts would be by far the cheapest and most effective way to regulate the deer population.

And yes rifles. I think. What other sort of gun are you supposed to shoot a deer with?

None! Good lord, it's Staten Island, any wildlife management plan there would obviously be archery only.

I imagine bucks are a better idea since they're fewer in numbers. Apparently the city agrees with me since they're giving them vasectomies and leaving the does be.

Bucks are a terrible idea, which is why this is literally the first ever (AFAIK) sterilization program in America that targets buck deer. You and the city obviously dont have degrees in vertebrate zoology. This program WILL fail; and I could practically write a thesis on all the reasons why.

 

[JimEIV]

I'm in a meeting right now but I definitely want to add more to this topic.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

And that's THEIR problem. People spouting off on a subject they know nothing about, and/or being politically anti-hunting. But their ideological beliefs and lack of subject knowledge does not alter the fact that wildlife management hunts would be by far the cheapest and most effective way to regulate the deer population.



None! Good lord, it's Staten Island, any wildlife management plan there would obviously be archery only.



Bucks are a terrible idea, which is why this is literally the first ever (AFAIK) sterilization program in America that targets buck deer. You and the city obviously dont have degrees in vertebrate zoology. This program WILL fail; and I could practically write a thesis on all the reasons why.

Well, I'm not politically anti-hunting and this has nothing to do with my ideals anyway. You also conveniently ignore my examples of Dallas/North Texas. Because I'm sure those municipalities are just chock full of ignorant, anti-hunting, ideologues.

And do you have any idea who Anthony DiNicola is? How about you submit your thesis to him. If you're lucky he'll give you an unpaid internship. Or you could just provide a fact based and sourced retort instead of leaping straight into a sanctimonious rant against me. Hearts and minds and all that good stuff.

 

[njdevils1982]

i would love to 'wildlife manage' the assbastards who rip down my road at at least 80+ km in a 60 zone

 

[BenedictGomez]

And do you have any idea who Anthony DiNicola is? How about you submit your thesis to him.

The guy raking in cash hand-over-fist by duping wealthy NYC anti-hunting pols? Somehow I dont think he'll be receptive.

Or you could just provide a fact based and sourced retort instead of leaping straight into a sanctimonious rant against me. Hearts and minds and all that good stuff.

1) It's biologically ignorant to target bucks, because even 1 "missed' male deer can & will impregnate a TON of does. We know this from prior research.

2) Deer swim (very well). You'll now have bucks swimming to S.I. from NJ because they'll pick up the smell of hundreds of "hot" doe (SEE: #1) during the rut.

3) In order for this to have even a slight chance of success, it must NEVER be stopped (SEE: #2). You would need to sterilize ALL incoming deer (SEE: #1), and QUICKLY. It's like nobody who bought into this nonsense even thought of this!!!!

4) Because this could never be stopped, it will will be incredibly expensive (SEE# 3) and doomed to fail as a total waste of money (SEE #1 & #2)

5) Hot does that fail to become impregnated increase their range with successive estrous cycles. We know this from prior research. Given more does will now be hot, and cycling several months & traveling more miles who's to say this wont actually make S.I. deer/car accidents WORSE?

So to sum it all up:

This will result in an incredibly expensive program that can never be stopped, that literally cannot succeed due to the fact that even a dozen "missed" bucks can likely impregnate a solid percentage of all the does on Staten Island. Even if you do get to their stated target of 98% sterilized bucks, there is NO research that claims that 2% bucks cant impregnate hundreds of does. In fact, what research that has been done on this subject area with few bucks in a population suggest that almost all does still get knocked up by those relatively few "lucky bucks".

 

[BenedictGomez]

Shorter version of post #965:

 

[Jack Be Quick]

The guy raking in cash hand-over-fist by duping wealthy NYC anti-hunting pols? Somehow I dont think he'll be receptive.



1) It's biologically ignorant to target bucks, because even 1 "missed' male deer can & will impregnate a TON of does. We know this from prior research.

2) Deer swim (very well). You'll now have bucks swimming to S.I. from NJ because they'll pick up the smell of hundreds of "hot" doe (SEE: #1) during the rut.

3) In order for this to have even a slight chance of success, it must NEVER be stopped (SEE: #2). You would need to sterilize ALL incoming deer (SEE: #1), and QUICKLY. It's like nobody who bought into this nonsense even thought of this!!!!

4) Because this could never be stopped, it will will be incredibly expensive (SEE# 3) and doomed to fail as a total waste of money (SEE #1 & #2)

5) Hot does that fail to become impregnated increase their range with successive estrous cycles. We know this from prior research. Given more does will now be hot, and cycling several months & traveling more miles who's to say this wont actually make S.I. deer/car accidents WORSE?

So to sum it all up:

This will result in an incredibly expensive program that can never be stopped, that literally cannot succeed due to the fact that even a dozen "missed" bucks can likely impregnate a solid percentage of all the does on Staten Island. Even if you do get to their stated target of 98% sterilized bucks, there is NO research that claims that 2% bucks cant impregnate hundreds of does. In fact, what research that has been done on this subject area with few bucks in a population suggest that almost all does still get knocked up by those relatively few "lucky bucks".

So what you're saying is, this is just another challenge the bridge and tunnel crowd presents to the fine folks of NYC.

Thanks for the informative post, I hadn't considered they are swimming here and there's a plethora of wild videos on YouTube of them doing just that.

But, if everything you say is true, wouldn't we end up with the same results allowing hunters in? Even if I underestimated their efficiency earlier, they obviously can't hit the 98% figure either.

 

[Emperoreddy]

The only hunting I have ever done is play the game “The Hunter” and shooting a Mule Deer in it.

 

[njdevils1982]

The only hunting I have ever done is play the game “The Hunter” and shooting a Mule Deer in it.

cmon, we've all hunted beaver in our lives at some point

 

[None Shall Pass]

Man, deer hunting sounds so much more complicated than the fowl I grew up hunting:

1. Get kinda camouflaged.
2. Hide.
2a. Decoys if you got them.
3. Wait.
4. Blast the air with shotgun.

 

[New Jersey]

Not to be a d****e, but the very fact you and LikeChristmasMorning even bring up firearm use is indicative of the fact this isn't a subject you guys are very well-versed on. Non sequitur x 1000.

well, understanding i *might* be a d****e with this retort, my apologies for associating firearms with hunting.

i don't hunt. it never appealed to me growing up in suburban bergen county raised by people from hudson county, but i figured firearms are the most popular/efficient method.

 

[New Jersey]

my favorite hunting spot is the meat fridges at montvale wegman's

 

[None Shall Pass]

my favorite hunting spot is the meat fridges at montvale wegman's

Gotta try Trader Joe's or Whole Foods on a weekday afternoon. Plenty of cougar to be poached.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Gotta try Trader Joe's or Whole Foods on a weekday afternoon. Plenty of cougar to be poached.

I'm booking my flight now.

 

[JimEIV]

well, understanding i *might* be a d****e with this retort, my apologies for associating firearms with hunting.

i don't hunt. it never appealed to me growing up in suburban bergen county raised by people from hudson county, but i figured firearms are the most popular/efficient method.

Bergan Bowman. Campgaw Rd Mahwah. Great range. Targeteers on 46 in Saddlebrook is another place to shoot.

Not Bergan but Essex Bloomfield Bloomfield Archers in Brookdale Park in Montclair has been meeting to shoot bsince 1931.

We have lots of Archers from Bergan county.

I run the Traditional Archers of New Jersey Facebook page as well as other community outreach. The FB page is used mostly to inform those interested in events (Archery shoots and tournaments) happening in the State. So I know pretty much every place you can shoot in New Jersey.