The Ten Worst Players in the HHOF

[Killion]

Keon on many occassions lamented the trade that sent Dick Duff to the Rangers while returning Andy Bathgate.

Indeed, and that trade to NY in 64 that included Bob Nevin, two of Keon's contemporaries who had also come up through St. Mikes created a fissure, a cracking of the ice, a sense of betrayal within Keon & others in the room who had tremendous respect for Dick Duff as a player and as an individual. The engine was headed off the tracks that had been laid by Frank Selke Sr & Conn Smythe in the preceding decades & nothing would ever be the same again. A guy like Duff was an extremely important piece, from continuity to performance, one of the underpinnings to the entire building process of the organization from the Toronto Hockey League Marlboros through the Junior B & A teams, the minors, players on the farm. His departure was the beginning of the end of a once proud franchise who despite Imlach, and playing on pride did manage to win 2 more cups before wandering the wilderness in the 50yrs that have followed since their last.... while alienating the greats including Keon & Duff who were critical components to their success, the last of their breed & kind, or perhaps nearly the last, as the very last was Ron Ellis.

 

[Big Phil]

Bolded is only an issue in your world. Certain aspects of life - education, literacy, election to the HHOF are not bound by time. Does not have to be acquired or awarded based on YOUR schedule but is flexible, an eternal process.

Old saying that only the fools and the dead cannot change their minds. Obviously the HHOF committee was/is neither.

Keon on many occassions lamented the trade that sent Dick Duff to the Rangers while returning Andy Bathgate.

It does beg the question why 30 years after he was eligible? And why a guy who was never on the radar? This wasn't one of those Joe Nieuwendyk campaigns where the media pushed the whole thing that winning three Cups on three different team was all of the sudden an accomplishment. It came from nowhere. No one in the press, no one on these boards were ever bringing up Duff's name. Were we all wrong? Of course not.

By the way, let's keep in mind that Duff was part of a package for Andy Bathgate, not like it was a one on one swap and he was worth the price of Bathgate.

 

[Killion]

By the way, let's keep in mind that Duff was part of a package for Andy Bathgate, not like it was a one on one swap and he was worth the price of Bathgate.

If you dont mind, I think I'll take Dave Keons word on that over yours Big Guy.... No offence or anything.

 

[Canadiens1958]

It does beg the question why 30 years after he was eligible? And why a guy who was never on the radar? This wasn't one of those Joe Nieuwendyk campaigns where the media pushed the whole thing that winning three Cups on three different team was all of the sudden an accomplishment. It came from nowhere. No one in the press, no one on these boards were ever bringing up Duff's name. Were we all wrong? Of course not.

By the way, let's keep in mind that Duff was part of a package for Andy Bathgate, not like it was a one on one swap and he was worth the price of Bathgate.

And the press or these boards are never wrong? Harvey Busher Jackson, 27 years:

Busher Jackson - Wikipedia

Roy Conacher,45+ years:

Roy Conacher - Wikipedia

Buddy O'Connor, Edgar Laprade, Clint Smith, Harry Watson(Leafs) all took much longer than years 30 to be named to the HHOF. Yet all are worthy.

 

[Killion]

And the press or these boards are never wrong?

Indeed. Players denied entry for wholly spurious reasons, grudges, all kinds of reasons, things that shouldve been left in the past long ago. Some people just cant get over themselves. I applaud the HHOF for righting some wrongs, inducting players who should have been either when they became eligible or shortly thereafter or as was the case with Duff & others, better late than never. There are still a number of omissions & not just in the players category & hopefully we'll see those omissions redressed in the not to distant future, some posthumously, others hopefully not, alive, still breathing & able to experience it themselves.

 

[Big Phil]

If you dont mind, I think I'll take Dave Keons word on that over yours Big Guy.... No offence or anything.

You believe Dave Keon's kind words about Duff over your own eyes? Fine, if you and I are a GM give me Bathgate and you can have Duff. I won't lose sleep over that.

 

[Big Phil]

And the press or these boards are never wrong? Harvey Busher Jackson, 27 years:

Busher Jackson - Wikipedia

Roy Conacher,45+ years:

Roy Conacher - Wikipedia

Buddy O'Connor, Edgar Laprade, Clint Smith, Harry Watson(Leafs) all took much longer than years 30 to be named to the HHOF. Yet all are worthy.

More legitimate reasons for those than you think. Busher Jackson didn't get in for the same reason many didn't get in right away from his era...........backlog. The HHOF opened in 1945 but they weren't inducting every year until the late 1950s. They were inducting tons of players every year from the past just to catch up but in 1967 started with the limit of 4 that we know today. This explains why someone like Turk Broda had to wait until 1967 to get inducted. This is also why Jackson had to wait until 1971.

The others you mentioned aren't strong HHOF picks and were mostly picked by the Veterans committee which has since ceased to exist. Edgar Laprade might be the worst example of a player you can use to compare him to Duff.............and that is sort of my point. If Laprade is used as a comparable my point is made, he shouldn't be in there either.

 

[Killion]

More legitimate reasons for those than you think. Busher Jackson didn't get in for the same reason many didn't get in right away from his era...........backlog.

"Backlog"? There was a backlog sure enough and there still is... But Busher wasnt denied entry because of that. No Siree Bob.... He was denied entry despite being one of the greatest players of his era because Conn Smythe didnt approve of his off-ice activities (drinking, a bit of a womanizer apparently), that he "lacked the character to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame". Stood in Bushers way for years & years. Then 5yrs after Jacksons death the roar became so loud to have Busher inducted, and Smythe unable to stop it, Jackson does finally get his due in 1971 but obviously far too late to enjoy it, and Conn Smythe, disgusted, resigned from the HHOF.

Jackson not the first or last to be Blackballed, to be maligned by some hypocritical, sanctimonious sack of **** who thinks he can get away with imposing his moral code or his evaluation of a player as being superior to everyone elses & denying them their just dues if they have the power to do so. Absolutely despicable for Conn Smythe to have done what he did to Jackson & damn straight he should have & did resign, only not for the reasons he thought he was doing so out of protest over "character issues"... but in disgrace.... Busher Jackson. First real Power Forward in the history of the game. Mahovlich in the 60's finally breaking Jacksons record for most goals by a Leaf. On & on. Busher a superb player..... Now.... Would you like to cite another example Phil? I can play this game all day.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You believe Dave Keon's kind words about Duff over your own eyes? Fine, if you and I are a GM give me Bathgate and you can have Duff. I won't lose sleep over that.

Except Keon played with Duff in the 1962 semi-finals against New York led by Andy Bathgate. Caught some of the games on TV.

First we will go back to the 1959 battle for 4th place between the Leafs and Rangers.

Background. Bathgate the Rangers star was extra shifted, playing with Larry Popein and Dean Prentice on the first line and with Hank Ciesla and Eddie Shack/Jim Bartlett on a makeshift line.

Between March 1st and the end of the season the leafs played the Rangers 3 twice in NY. Leafs got 5 out of 6 points so the games were crucial to the Leafs making the playoffs. Duff and Olmstead played opposite Bathgate since Imlach did not extra shift. Duff, as part of his defensive responsibilities found the time to outscore Bathgate, 3G - 2A to 3G-0A in these game. Last game of the season against Howe and Detroit on the road, in the deciding Leafs win Duff scored 1G-2A including the GWG. Bathgate was held scoreless at home by the Canadiens.

Big advantage Dick Duff.

1962- semi-finals Leafs vs Rangers, Leafs winning in 6. Again Olmstead and Duff covered the extra shifted Bathgate.Final result, Dick Duff 2G - 6A, Andy Bathgate 1 G - 2A, -5.

Again huge advantage to Dick Duff offensively and defensively. Bathgate finished sixth on the Rangers in playoff scoring behind mid/late season call-ups Rod Gilbert and Dave Balon. Also he had the worst +/- on the team. Mid/late season call-ups were better than him defensively. Duff went on to score the 1962 Cup winning goal in Chicago on the road.

Andy Bathgate Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

1964 SC Cup winning leafs. Yes Bathgate scored the cup winning goal in a 4-0 victory but as you can see with a -4 he was a huge liability defensively for the Leafs.

Doubt you would last long as a GM with your talent evaluation skills.

 

[Canadiens1958]

More legitimate reasons for those than you think. Busher Jackson didn't get in for the same reason many didn't get in right away from his era...........backlog. The HHOF opened in 1945 but they weren't inducting every year until the late 1950s. They were inducting tons of players every year from the past just to catch up but in 1967 started with the limit of 4 that we know today. This explains why someone like Turk Broda had to wait until 1967 to get inducted. This is also why Jackson had to wait until 1971.

The others you mentioned aren't strong HHOF picks and were mostly picked by the Veterans committee which has since ceased to exist. Edgar Laprade might be the worst example of a player you can use to compare him to Duff.............and that is sort of my point. If Laprade is used as a comparable my point is made, he shouldn't be in there either.

Killion basically deflated your misconceptions about the Harvey "Busher" Jackson induction. Part of hockey history that seems to have zipped right by you.

Veterans committee fulfilled its role and the HHOF is richer for it. Edgar Laprade was the last of the great Canadian Amateur players from the late thirties, WWII era, when with a job/business amateur hockey paid more. Combined with his strong NHL record post WWII., he is definitely a qualified and strong inductee. Think Igor Larianov - strong International amateur career with a solid NHL career. Yet never a top 5 on his team of Top 20 - using your standards, in the NHL. A few more that just zipped by you.

 

[Killion]

Veterans committee fulfilled its role and the HHOF is richer for it. Edgar Laprade was the last of the great Canadian Amateur players from the late thirties, WWII era...

Absolutely.... more here on Edgar Laprade.... www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep199302.shtml

 

[blood gin]

Rob Blake is not a Hall of Famer. No clue how he got in

 

[Nick Hansen]

Rob Blake is not a Hall of Famer. No clue how he got in

He's somewhat similar to a Shea Weber with an actual Norris. Curious that he was -3 that season while the runner-up Lidstrom was +22 and scored 9 more pts.

 

[blood gin]

He's somewhat similar to a Shea Weber with an actual Norris. Curious that he was -3 that season while the runner-up Lidstrom was +22 and scored 9 more pts.

Yea Lidstrom deserved that Norris that year. 1997-1998 was one of the worst seasons in NHL history with scoring cratering.

Blake was a good player but you could always find guys who were better defensively (Scott Stevens, Pronger) better offensively (Macinnis, Lidstrom, Leetch. As well as guys consistantly healthier. I wouldn't even consider him the Weber of his era. More like the Phaneuf

I would take somebody like Zubov or Eric Desjardins over Blake every time.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Yea Lidstrom deserved that Norris that year. 1997-1998 was one of the worst seasons in NHL history with scoring cratering.

Blake was a good player but you could always find guys who were better defensively (Scott Stevens, Pronger) better offensively (Macinnis, Lidstrom, Leetch. As well as guys consistantly healthier. I wouldn't even consider him the Weber of his era. More like the Phaneuf

I would take somebody like Zubov or Eric Desjardins over Blake every time.

Don't see the case for Desjardins. Zubov...hard one. He's probably about equal.

 

[blood gin]

To me Andreychuk is just not a Hall of Famer, however 640 goals and 1300pts is just tough to keep out. I don't like the idea of penalizing a guy just because Andreychuk's abilities on the ice weren't exactly the sexiest or most likely to make the evening news. He still scored, A LOT, from some very tough real estate and took a ton of abuse doing it. I think it also helped him that he had a 2nd career in Tampa Bay, still scoring pretty decently for his age but also being a leader on that team, winning a Cup, and playing solid, defensive hockey

 

[Big Phil]

"Backlog"? There was a backlog sure enough and there still is... But Busher wasnt denied entry because of that. No Siree Bob.... He was denied entry despite being one of the greatest players of his era because Conn Smythe didnt approve of his off-ice activities (drinking, a bit of a womanizer apparently), that he "lacked the character to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame". Stood in Bushers way for years & years. Then 5yrs after Jacksons death the roar became so loud to have Busher inducted, and Smythe unable to stop it, Jackson does finally get his due in 1971 but obviously far too late to enjoy it, and Conn Smythe, disgusted, resigned from the HHOF.

Jackson not the first or last to be Blackballed, to be maligned by some hypocritical, sanctimonious sack of **** who thinks he can get away with imposing his moral code or his evaluation of a player as being superior to everyone elses & denying them their just dues if they have the power to do so. Absolutely despicable for Conn Smythe to have done what he did to Jackson & damn straight he should have & did resign, only not for the reasons he thought he was doing so out of protest over "character issues"... but in disgrace.... Busher Jackson. First real Power Forward in the history of the game. Mahovlich in the 60's finally breaking Jacksons record for most goals by a Leaf. On & on. Busher a superb player..... Now.... Would you like to cite another example Phil? I can play this game all day.

Who said Busher Jackson wasn't a deserving HHOFer? Not me.

 

[Big Phil]

Except Keon played with Duff in the 1962 semi-finals against New York led by Andy Bathgate. Caught some of the games on TV.

First we will go back to the 1959 battle for 4th place between the Leafs and Rangers.

Background. Bathgate the Rangers star was extra shifted, playing with Larry Popein and Dean Prentice on the first line and with Hank Ciesla and Eddie Shack/Jim Bartlett on a makeshift line.

Between March 1st and the end of the season the leafs played the Rangers 3 twice in NY. Leafs got 5 out of 6 points so the games were crucial to the Leafs making the playoffs. Duff and Olmstead played opposite Bathgate since Imlach did not extra shift. Duff, as part of his defensive responsibilities found the time to outscore Bathgate, 3G - 2A to 3G-0A in these game. Last game of the season against Howe and Detroit on the road, in the deciding Leafs win Duff scored 1G-2A including the GWG. Bathgate was held scoreless at home by the Canadiens.

Big advantage Dick Duff.

1962- semi-finals Leafs vs Rangers, Leafs winning in 6. Again Olmstead and Duff covered the extra shifted Bathgate.Final result, Dick Duff 2G - 6A, Andy Bathgate 1 G - 2A, -5.

Again huge advantage to Dick Duff offensively and defensively. Bathgate finished sixth on the Rangers in playoff scoring behind mid/late season call-ups Rod Gilbert and Dave Balon. Also he had the worst +/- on the team. Mid/late season call-ups were better than him defensively. Duff went on to score the 1962 Cup winning goal in Chicago on the road.

Andy Bathgate Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

1964 SC Cup winning leafs. Yes Bathgate scored the cup winning goal in a 4-0 victory but as you can see with a -4 he was a huge liability defensively for the Leafs.

Doubt you would last long as a GM with your talent evaluation skills.

Wow...........you found an example of Duff on a stacked team looking better than Bathgate on a horrendous team. Who would have thought? You want to be brave, do a poll on this board asking who you'd want on your team, Duff or Bathgate.

 

[Big Phil]

Killion basically deflated your misconceptions about the Harvey "Busher" Jackson induction. Part of hockey history that seems to have zipped right by you.

Veterans committee fulfilled its role and the HHOF is richer for it. Edgar Laprade was the last of the great Canadian Amateur players from the late thirties, WWII era, when with a job/business amateur hockey paid more. Combined with his strong NHL record post WWII., he is definitely a qualified and strong inductee. Think Igor Larianov - strong International amateur career with a solid NHL career. Yet never a top 5 on his team of Top 20 - using your standards, in the NHL. A few more that just zipped by you.

Oh whatever, Laprade is a terrible selection. Part of his career in the TBSHL isn't exactly something that bumps up your HHOF worth. What "strong NHL record" are you talking about here? Laprade was merely a "good" player, never to be mistaken for a true great. Bringing that up is like brining up Duff's junior career. It is not relevant to a HHOF career.

My guess is the HHOF could elect Paul Henderson and you'd have no problem with it.

 

[Big Phil]

To me Andreychuk is just not a Hall of Famer, however 640 goals and 1300pts is just tough to keep out. I don't like the idea of penalizing a guy just because Andreychuk's abilities on the ice weren't exactly the sexiest or most likely to make the evening news. He still scored, A LOT, from some very tough real estate and took a ton of abuse doing it. I think it also helped him that he had a 2nd career in Tampa Bay, still scoring pretty decently for his age but also being a leader on that team, winning a Cup, and playing solid, defensive hockey

Not terribly impressive when you do it the way he did by playing in over 1600 games. A lot easier to hit 640 goals in a higher scoring era when you play for 24 years. He is the epitome of a compiler.

He's somewhat similar to a Shea Weber with an actual Norris. Curious that he was -3 that season while the runner-up Lidstrom was +22 and scored 9 more pts.

To be fair he was on the Kings in 1998. Not exactly a stellar team. He finished 10th in Hart voting too, so it isn't as if he wasn't on the radar. For quite a few years Blake was an elite defender. A mainstay on Team Canada. Many of us like his career over Niedermayer's.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wow...........you found an example of Duff on a stacked team looking better than Bathgate on a horrendous team. Who would have thought? You want to be brave, do a poll on this board asking who you'd want on your team, Duff or Bathgate.

1959 Leafs were far from stacked. Picked for last in pre-season polls.

Gilbert, Balon and all the Rangers were facing a pre championship/dynasty Leaf team in 1962. Post hoc definition of stacked, not at that time in 1962.

Demonstratably Bathgate was the worst player on the two teams. Midseason call-ups, rookies and depth players did better than Bathgate on the 1962 Rangers during the semi-finals. Earl Ingarfield, Dave Balon and Rod Gilbert faced the exact same Leafs as Bathgate did and all outscored him and out played him defencisvely

 

[Canadiens1958]

Oh whatever, Laprade is a terrible selection. Part of his career in the TBSHL isn't exactly something that bumps up your HHOF worth. What "strong NHL record" are you talking about here? Laprade was merely a "good" player, never to be mistaken for a true great. Bringing that up is like brining up Duff's junior career. It is not relevant to a HHOF career.

My guess is the HHOF could elect Paul Henderson and you'd have no problem with it.

HHOF considered Allan Cup performance not TBSHL performance. Just as it did for Bill Durnan, Harry Watson, the great Olympian and amateur player and a string of others who played in the first half of the 20th century.

Laprade was exceptional defensively, yet played three penalty free seasons:

Edgar Laprade Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Calder and Byng winner when both trophies were meaningful. Received Hart Trophy votes.

 

[Killion]

Who said Busher Jackson wasn't a deserving HHOFer? Not me.

You theorized that there "had to be a reason why Duff didnt get in for nearly 30yrs, submit it was because he wasnt good enough" followed by some cockameme' conspiracy theory that he'd lobbied members of the Induction Committee or whatever (or maybe, just maybe there was a conspiracy, a conspiracy to keep him out)... further.... that Jackson didnt get in earlier "due to the backlog" which was/is false. I pointed out the reasons for Jacksons delayed induction (conspiracy fact) and in the case of Duff & others the now sadly disbanded Veterans Committee finally did get to at least partially clear the backlog with Dick Duffs induction amongst others, Duffs induction long overdue.

There are still omissions, guys who in IMHO should be in there. In some cases like Jackson, there has been pressure bought to bear by members of the various Induction Committee's along with external pressure from powerful voices to deny some players their deserved place in the Hall. Entirely possible Dick Duff may have ticked off whomever at some point in time during his playing career or thereafter hence the delay. An "official story" was provided as you noted earlier but as weve seen time & time again, truth, honesty & integrity not always the NHL's strongest suit.... Really, those of us who support the player inductions, dont have a problem with any of them wont be changing the minds of those that do, and those of you who do have problems with guys like Laprade & Duff wont be changing ours so.... agree to disagree.

 

[Big Phil]

1959 Leafs were far from stacked. Picked for last in pre-season polls.

Gilbert, Balon and all the Rangers were facing a pre championship/dynasty Leaf team in 1962. Post hoc definition of stacked, not at that time in 1962.

Demonstratably Bathgate was the worst player on the two teams. Midseason call-ups, rookies and depth players did better than Bathgate on the 1962 Rangers during the semi-finals. Earl Ingarfield, Dave Balon and Rod Gilbert faced the exact same Leafs as Bathgate did and all outscored him and out played him defencisvely

Was talking about the 1962 Leafs by the way. Who would have thought a dynasty team beats a team that barely got into the playoffs! Come on, this is the best you have for Dick Duff? A HHOFer needs to jump out at you, you don't need to dig this deep to make a case for someone like this.

Spare me what Bathgate did in one semi final series against a team littered with Hall of Famers. He tied none other than Bobby Hull for the lead in points that year. Can you name a time Duff hit that kind of peak?

 

[Big Phil]

HHOF considered Allan Cup performance not TBSHL performance. Just as it did for Bill Durnan, Harry Watson, the great Olympian and amateur player and a string of others who played in the first half of the 20th century.

Laprade was exceptional defensively, yet played three penalty free seasons:

Edgar Laprade Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Calder and Byng winner when both trophies were meaningful. Received Hart Trophy votes.

He finished 7th in Hart trophy voting in 1950 and that was it. A 2nd and 3rd place vote. You are using the Byng and Calder to pump a career? Come on. Why not list how many all-star games the guy played in while we're at it?

Durnan doesn't get into the Hall because he routinely was the first or second best goalie in the NHL in his career? Watson wouldn't be in if he weren't part of a dynasty either. Take it any way you want if you think Watson should be in, but it was being on the Leafs dynasty that did it, not the Allan Cup. That's really reaching.