The Ten Worst Players in the HHOF

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

What about Rod Langway?

 

[seventieslord]

What about Rod Langway?

What about him?

 

[Big Phil]

What about Rod Langway?

No issues with him. If you can turn the Washington Capitals around by being the player who doesn't allow the opposition to score then you belong. The evidence of two Norrises in his career tells that story as well.

 

[Big Phil]

Tim Horton said of Boivin that he was very likely the toughest Defender in the league for any forward to face one on one, and by far one of the greatest, most devastating & hard hitting Defencemen in the NHL and this was in the early to mid 50's when Horton wouldve known Boivin very well indeed as Leo was Leafs property, had played for the Hornets & Toronto before being traded to Boston. Indeed, Leo Boivin acquired from the Bruins out of Junior by the Leafs who thought either he or Horton would be more than capable of replacing the lost Bashin' Billy Barilko.....

Horton however was more mobile, bigger (Leo was only 5'8" but built like a Sherman Tank), Boivin far too talented to be sent down, absolutely one of the best of his generation & improving every year so they kept Horton & traded Leo back to Boston where.... yep.... he continued to improve, get better, and already "great". Total anchor, eventual team Captain in Boston. He was a feared opponent, Defenceman. One of the greatest checkers the games ever known. Im talking on par with Shore, Hitchman, Gadsby, Denis Potvin, Scott Stevens.....

So you tell me Phil?.... How is it that astute hockey historians, players, coaches, reporters & fans, people who watched Leo Boivins career through his 10-11yr peak with the Bruins actually call him the "bridge between Shore & Orr" & recognize in him, acknowledge that he was without a doubt one of the greatest Stay-At-Home Defencemen, Greatest Checkers & a terrific Leader of not only his generation but of any yet you.... you disagree and somehow "know better"? You "know more" than his contemporaries with whom he played, by the Coaches, Scouts, players who came before & those who came after but who followed Boivins career, effusively praising the the guys play every one of them? You dont think he's "worthy of HHOF Induction"?

You my friend dont know much about Leo Boivin beyond what youve read. I saw him, plenty of others saw him. Information is not knowledge, and without knowledge there is no wisdom, no understanding, no depth of appreciation for what it is your looking at, dealing with, apprising. Damn straight Leo Boivin belongs in the HHOF... as does Bobby Boomer Baun amongst others. Baun one of the most underrated & forgotten Superstar Defenders of his era. Like Leo, he played a little longer than he should have but then who can find fault with that, salaries doubling, trebling with Expansion..... Your mentions of Trottier, Bossy etc, of Middleton... ya, there are players that should be, should have been inducted. My problem is not with any of those in the HHOF, as I said, its with the omissions, those who should have been, should be in there.

I won't convince you on Boivin. You described a smaller version of Derian Hatcher. We'd all be talking about Hatcher as a shut down guy too. Or Adam Foote. They were good, they did their role but the "great" defensemen of their era were better. Same with Boivin. You don't seem to mind that the people who voted on Boivin and watched him day in and day out didn't think he was any better than 5th for the Norris, and the next time being 10th. Those aren't Hall worthy.

But since you always defend every player in the HHOF what on earth would be your defense for Andreychuk and can you tell me what makes him a HHOFer?

 

[Big Phil]

On the cusp should they or shouldn’t they be in

Charlie Simmer
Tim Kerr
Rick Martin
Dave Taylor
Alex Mogilny
Pierre Larouche
Nifty
Bernie Nichols

Nifty is the only one I'd put in. He should be in by now I think. The rest don't make the cut for various reasons. Mogilny could have been in if he wanted to be.

Good list... but were Anderson, Ciccarelli and Mullen really better than Nieuwendyk and Federko?

Mullen is another one with grey area. It is worth noting that he was the first American to put up 500 goals. I have no idea how Mullen got in (with Savard in 2000) and they made Dale Hawerchuk wait an extra year. That made absolutely no sense. I can live with Mullen in there but he can easily make the top 10 list of worst inductees. Needed some more elite years as far as I am concerned too. But alas........

I think as an individual Nieuwendyk probably was the worst of those players. Federko definitely could do it on his own and to an extent so could Ciccarelli. But when it comes down to it, career value matters too. Maybe Anderson is not a HHOFer if he isn't an Oiler, but he was and he contributed to one of the greatest dynasties ever. He wasn't a passenger. We look at him in a strong light because of this.

Ckark Gilles was a two time 1st team all-star. His role as an enforcer while also being a top line player on a dynasty team certainly makes him quite unique in hockey history. The fact that he never had 100 penalty minutes in a season, in that era, says a lot about how well he did his job.

Just a very short time at the top. Two pretty good years I'll give him, but that's it. Does that make a HHOFer? Two years?

 

[Big Phil]

Andreychuk played 1500+ games (7th all-time), scored 500+ goals (14th all-time), and scored 1000+ points (29th all-time). That seems pretty hall-worthy to me. Even without the scoring stats, you can't tell me that the NHL player with the seventh most games played doesn't belong in the hall of fame.

Nieuwendyk played 1000 + games (83rd all-time), scored 500+ goals (24th all-time), and 1000+ points (57th all-time). That still seems hall-worthy to me.

I don't think the games played thing is what you should be hanging your hat on. Everyone knows the all-time points leader but does everyone know the all-time games leader? It was Gordie Howe and will be Jagr at year's end. The fact that most people don't know that shows you how important the games played stat is for the HHOF. Marleau is going to pass Andreychuk in that stat. Shane Doan ended up just 100 games behind him. Glen Wesley, Scott Mellanby and Luke Richardson are among names not more than 200 games behind Andreychuk all-time. None were great, they just always found a team that needed their services because they were serviceable for a long time.

To put Andreychuk's goals in context let's look at how he did on a per game basis. He may be 14th in goals but he is 108th in goals per game. Here are some names ahead of him:

Petr Klima
Brian Bellows
Stephane Richer
Tomas Sandstrom

So what does that say? Could it be possible that he may have only achieved that many goals because he hung around collecting a ton of 20 goal seasons at the end of his career? Because if so, then it makes sense why he had over 600 career goals. One of the problems I have with Andreychuk is that he didn't score 600+ goals the right way. Dino did. Gartner got 708 the right way. If Andreychuk did what those players did he might have gotten 550, not 640. They retired when they were no longer scoring much, Andreychuk didn't.

If Adam
Foote is a HHOFer then what is Derian Hatcher?

I would say both should be left out. Both very solid defenseman and did their role well. Neither were the best defenseman on their teams though and when they won there was always a better defenseman. If you are going to be defensive minded then you should be dominant like Rod Langway to the point where a 25-30 point year doesn't hurt you. I just don't see them as "great" and I think that tends to be the narrative on here.

How do you put Hatcher in and leave Zubov out? That would be interesting.

 

[Killion]

I won't convince you on Boivin....

But since you always defend every player in the HHOF what on earth would be your defense for Andreychuk and can you tell me what makes him a HHOFer?

... no, you wont, so moving on.... I wont even bother with a flowery dissertation, so...

Dave Andreychuk "strictly by the numbers"....

1,639 Games Played (6th all time)
640 Goals Scored (14th)
698 Assists for 1,338 Points (28th)
All Time RS PP Goals at 27
97 Pts in 162 Playoff Games

Now you tell me that isnt a HOF Career Big Guy...

 

[Canadiens1958]

I won't convince you on Boivin. You described a smaller version of Derian Hatcher. We'd all be talking about Hatcher as a shut down guy too. Or Adam Foote. They were good, they did their role but the "great" defensemen of their era were better. Same with Boivin. You don't seem to mind that the people who voted on Boivin and watched him day in and day out didn't think he was any better than 5th for the Norris, and the next time being 10th. Those aren't Hall worthy.

But since you always defend every player in the HHOF what on earth would be your defense for Andreychuk and can you tell me what makes him a HHOFer?

Ah yes the old superficial voting without any background or substance view. So let's contrast Langway with Boivin.

First we will set the stage. AST voting used to take place before the the playoffs in Boivin's era and playoffs were not considered in Langway.s time.

Langway era Caps were playoff disappointments. His only SC came with the Canadiens

The old bogus AST/Norris RS voting argument which disadvantages strong playoff performers while ignoring playoff duds favours Langway.

Basically the voters recognized both strengths while you did not.

Langway, a regular season warrior, was also part of Capitals teams that regularly disappointed in the playoffs. Note Langway won his only SC as a spare part with the Canadiens. In the playoffs with the Canadiens he was +6, overall while with Washington he was +1 in the playoffs. Washington never advanced to the finals and was upset regularly.

Rod Langway Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Short career with the Canadiens he was +160, long Washington career he was +117. Great 2 year window but overall overrated.

Boivin, a better skater and the best hipcheck artist of his time was a playoff warrior. Played on three SC finalists 1956 to 1967, O6 stretch teams never winning but his teams gave the SC Champion Canadiens their three toughest finals.

HHOF voters recognized this.

 

[seventieslord]

... no, you wont, so moving on.... I wont even bother with a flowery dissertation, so...

Dave Andreychuk "strictly by the numbers"....

1,639 Games Played (6th all time)
640 Goals Scored (14th)
698 Assists for 1,338 Points (28th)
All Time RS PP Goals at 27
97 Pts in 162 Playoff Games

Now you tell me that isnt a HOF Career Big Guy...

Phil should start by pointing out that Andreychuk was never considered even a top-40 player in the nhl.

 

[Killion]

Phil should start by pointing out that Andreychuk was never considered even a top-40 player in the nhl.

Not suggesting he was an "elite talent", the kind of player his opponents worried about coming into a game, his genius was just that. He was solid, reliable, rugged, was excellent at carrying the puck to the net, did a lot more than just stand there & bang in rebounds.... Theres a statute of Dave Andreychuk hoisting the Stanley Cup over his head outside of Amalie Arena in Tampa..... Why would that be?.... How many non HHOF players have statutes erected to them in their honor 70's?... Theres a reason for it, plenty of good reasons. He belongs, earned his stripes, place in the Hall. Total Warrior.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Phil should start by pointing out that Andreychuk was never considered even a top-40 player in the nhl.

That will get Big Phil nowhere fast. Top 40 in a 21 to 30 team NHL converts to a Top 7 to 10 range player in the pre WHA, NHL. A solid number of HHOFers acceptable to Big Phil and you would not qualify by this metric.

So that is a non-starter.

 

[The Panther]

Dave Andreychuk "strictly by the numbers"....

I've got some numbers of my own!! Check 'em out:

1,639 Games Played (6th all time)

How many games someone played has ZERO bearing on eligibility to the Hall of Fame. Also in the top-50 games played:
Matt Cullen
Ron Stewart
Teppo Numminen
Dean Prentice
Doug Mohns
Roman Hamrlik
Luke Richardson

640 Goals Scored (14th)

0.40 Goals-per-game (84th in players [min. 320 games] from 1967 to the 2004 Lock-out)

Ahead of him on this list are such legends as Alexei Yashin, Tony Tanti, Rick Kehoe, Ken Hodge, Mickey Redmond, and Jimmy Carson.

Number of times he was top-8 in goals-per-game (goal scoring being the one thing he did well) in any season of his career: ZERO

698 Assists for 1,338 Points (28th)

0.43 Assists-per-game (255th in players [min. 320 games] from 1967 to the 2004 Lock-out)

Ahead of him on this list: Eric Veil, Brad Maxwell, Moe Mantha, Greg Malone, Mike Eaves, Zarley Zalapski, Doug Shedden, Paul Gardner, Don Maloney, Norm Maciver, Jude Drouin, Rob Brown, John van Boxmeer, Michael Nylander, Tom McCarthy, Tom Fergus, Steve Vickers, Walt Poddubny, etc. etc, etc....

All Time RS PP Goals at 27

(I think you meant 274.)

This would seem to be Andreychuk's only claim-to-fame. He banged in more RS power-play goals than anybody else. And indeed, the names right after him on the list (Hull, Selanne, Esposito, Robitaille, Lemieux, etc.) are all obvious Hall of Famers. But let's break it down a bit more:

Andreychuk scored 0.167 power-play goals per game. How does that compare to others on the power-play goals list? Let's see:
- 0.258 Mario Lemieux
- 0.229 Ovechkin (obviously still in progress -- will vary)
Well, no surprise he's behind those guys. But what about other non-Hall of Famers?:
- 0.229 Kerr
- 0.177 Tkachuk
- 0.174 Paul MacLean
- 0.167 Bellows

So, in fact, Andreychuk's per-game power-play goal production was on par with Brian Bellows' (and way behind guys like Tim Kerr and Paul MacLean, who had shorter careers).

97 Pts in 162 Playoff Games

Seriously...?

Goal-scoring is the one thing this guy was noted for. Only once in his entire career did he score more than 5 goals in any playoff year (!). I think I would struggle to find ANY first-line forward who played in the 80s to mid-90s whom that's true of...

Now you tell me that isnt a HOF Career Big Guy...

It's most definitely NOT a Hall of Fame career, unless you want to include every player of Andreychuk's level in the Hall of Fame and make longevity the most important consideration. And I can't imagine why any knowledgeable fan would want to do those two things.


But evidently, the Hall of Fame committee did....

 

[seventieslord]

Top 40 in a 21 to 30 team NHL converts to a Top 7 to 10 range player in the pre WHA, NHL.

- no, it doesn't.
- If it did, it would invalidate just about everything you've ever said that fetishizes the O6 era in the past decade on this board.

 

[Killion]

It's most definitely NOT a Hall of Fame career, unless you want to include every player of Andreychuk's level in the Hall of Fame and make longevity the most important consideration. And I can't imagine why any knowledgeable fan would want to do those two things.

But evidently, the Hall of Fame committee did....

... and while I didnt sit on that committee.... totally agreed with their decision, applaud it. Understand the controversy, absolutely. On this one & others, we'll just have to agree to disagree Panther.

 

[CanCHI]

I don't think people understand how hard the consistency Andreychuk played with is to achieve, the players that guy keeps bringing up in terms of goals per game are no where near 640 because they never a hope in heck to get to the point Andreychuk did.

I mean Andreychuk had 19, 20 goal seasons. That is astonishing and something only matched or exceeded by other Hall of Famers. And you can say all you want, well if this guy stayed healthy or this guy played longer he would have the same stats which is also hard to believe but we will go with it, the fact is they didn't plain and simple.

 

[Canadiens1958]

- no, it doesn't.
- If it did, it would invalidate just about everything you've ever said that fetishizes the O6 era in the past decade on this board.

Top 40 in a 30 team NHL covers about 6% of the combined rosters. 23 x 30 x.06. 6% of the combined O6 rosters allowing for roster growth thru the period is in the range cited.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I don't think people understand how hard the consistency Andreychuk played with is to achieve, the players that guy keeps bringing up in terms of goals per game are no where near 640 because they never a hope in heck to get to the point Andreychuk did.

I mean Andreychuk had 19, 20 goal seasons. That is astonishing and something only matched or exceeded by other Hall of Famers. And you can say all you want, well if this guy stayed healthy or this guy played longer he would have the same stats which is also hard to believe but we will go with it, the fact is they didn't plain and simple.

Staying healthy and in game shape are skills.

 

[CanCHI]

Staying healthy and in game shape are skills.

Producing 19, 20 goal years is in fact a skill only possessed by Ron Francis (weirdly healthy almost like he was a robot hmmm, decent player but compiler) Shanahan (definite compiler, also played through a lot of injuries which makes his compiling like cheating) and Howe (the ultimate compiler, I mean playing in the NHL at 50? Purely to compile)

 

[Canadiens1958]

Producing 19, 20 goal years is in fact a skill only possessed by Ron Francis (weirdly healthy almost like he was a robot hmmm, decent player but compiler) Shanahan (definite compiler, also played through a lot of injuries which makes his compiling like cheating) and Howe (the ultimate compiler, I mean playing in the NHL at 50? Purely to compile)

Except the business side of hockey demolishes your argument. No other younger player was available who was as cost efficient and productive. Saw Howe play at 50 and he was better than many skaters in their prime.

Also denying that someone, regardless of age earned his or her salary honestly is not a fondation to build on.

 

[DitchMarner]

I'm not in favor of Andreychuk's induction, but I feel that it should be pointed that many of the players who finished their careers with higher goals-per-game averages didn't play as many games or nearly as many games in some cases.

Just like taking his raw goal and point totals at face value can paint a distorted picture of his goal scoring abilities, saying he scored at a lower clip than someone who played many fewer games in the NHL doesn't necessarily mean too much without context (taking the disparity in games played into consideration), either.

 

[seventieslord]

Top 40 in a 30 team NHL covers about 6% of the combined rosters. 23 x 30 x.06. 6% of the combined O6 rosters allowing for roster growth thru the period is in the range cited.

so? You can't make arguments that promote the exact opposite of this theory for a decade and then completely change course when it suits you.

 

[Canadiens1958]

so? You can't make arguments that promote the exact opposite of this theory for a decade and then completely change course when it suits you.

What??? All for the induction of the likes of Duff, Pulford, plus defencemen and goalies who would never be considered top 10 or even top 20 in any given season. Have been all along.

 

[The Panther]

I'm not in favor of Andreychuk's induction, but I feel that it should be pointed that many of the players who finished their careers with higher goals-per-game averages didn't play as many games or nearly as many games in some cases.

Just like taking his raw goal and point totals at face value can paint a distorted picture of his goal scoring abilities, saying he scored at a lower clip than someone who played many fewer games in the NHL doesn't necessarily mean too much without context (taking the disparity in games played into consideration), either.

Fair enough. But then, in what specific years do you think we should be analyzing Andreychuk's stats? The fact remains that he was known for one thing -- goal-scoring -- and was never elite at that one thing.

 

[crobro]

Alan Haworth

 

[cupcrazyman]

If Adam Foote is a HHOFer then what is Derian Hatcher?

Righ now he's co-owner & head coach of our Sarnia Sting.