The Ten Worst Players in the HHOF

[Killion]

Won't do a top 10 but Gillies, Boivin and Pulford would be my top 3. All good players but Hall of Famers? I don't know.

Well... obviously IMO they all 3 earned their stripes, inductions. Important players. Deserve the recognition, to be remembered, enshrined. Were they "Superstars"?. No. Were they "Stars"? Absolutely. Pully an absolutely brilliant two way forward with a very dangerous offensive streak. Pure Grit. Gillies in many ways the heart & soul of those great Islanders teams. Dont mess with the Islanders, dont mess with Jethro, guy could seriously play, work ethic off the charts. All 3 of them, Dick Duff, anyone else anyone cares to mention in there for good reason. If you wanna complain then complain about the omissions. And there are lots of those. Long since retired, some deceased who should be in.

 

[seventieslord]

Mostly voting for Doug Harvey & Pierre Pilote during Boivins prime.... No shame in that.

Add Red Kelly, Marcel Pronovost, Bill Gadsby, Tim Horton all puck moving defencemen that were part of the new wave post introduction of the Red Line group of defence

so, it's almost like Boivin wasn't one of the best defensemen of his era, then.

 

[Canadiens1958]

so, it's almost like Boivin wasn't one of the best defensemen of his era, then.

It was like the Golden Era of defencemen and the HHOF recognized this, given that three were converted centers - Kelly, Pronovost and Harvey. Conversely four teams did not have a true #1 center,1956 thru 1960, for long stretches. Boston, Chicago, New York, Toronto. Toronto once they traded for Kelly made him their #1 center.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Canadiens or Killion, can you compare Leo Boivin to, say, Adam Foote? Interested in hearing your take since (I think) you watched Bovin play, and I didn't.

From what I've read about Bovin, it seems like he and Fooote have similar styles (hard-hitting defensive defensemen). Their career games played & scoring totals are very similar. Both got a few throwaway votes for the Norris and year-end all-star teams. Foote had more team success (significant contributor on two Cup winning teams, and also a participant in a few international tournaments).

Would you also advocate for Foote having a spot in the Hall of Fame? Or was Boivin clearly better?

 

[Hobnobs]

Canadiens or Killion, can you compare Leo Boivin to, say, Adam Foote? Interested in hearing your take since (I think) you watched Bovin play, and I didn't.

From what I've read about Bovin, it seems like he and Fooote have similar styles (hard-hitting defensive defensemen). Their career games played & scoring totals are very similar. Both got a few throwaway votes for the Norris and year-end all-star teams. Foote had more team success (significant contributor on two Cup winning teams, and also a participant in a few international tournaments).

Would you also advocate for Foote having a spot in the Hall of Fame? Or was Boivin clearly better?

I dont know about how close Boivin was to Foote but Id argue that Foote is indeed a HHoFer.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

As a player, was Gillies really much better than, say, Wendel Clark?

He won some Cups playing on some of the best teams ever. He was certainly a good and unique player, but I don't think he should be a Hall of Famer.

Any post-season all-star berths for Clark? Played for bad teams but, -129 for his career?

I would say, yes, he was better than Clark.

 

[sr edler]

If Adam Foote is a HHOFer then what is Derian Hatcher?

 

[Killion]

so, it's almost like Boivin wasn't one of the best defensemen of his era, then.

.... ahh, nice try.... as C58 alludes to above this really was (Bovins peak years with Boston) the Golden Age of Superb Defenceman & Utility Players, Two Way Forwards. With Expansion & most certainly with the arrival of Bobby Orr & all that followed.... that depth that existed throughout the 50's & into the 60's has to a large extent been overshadowed by Orr, by the changing game, the role of the Defenceman. Doug Harvey was changing the game, the role of the Defenceman while Boivin was playing of course, Leo's "Star" if you will (like a lot of other excellent Stay-At-Home Defenceman) eclipsed with the play of the Generational Doug Harvey followed by Pierre Pilote in the early 60's.

There were a lot of excellent Stay-At-Home Defenceman during this period, Leo Boivin absolutely one of the very best, and remember too he was only 5'8" but played like he was 6'8", knew how to read a play, play the angles, one of the hardest checkers to have ever played the game and I mean he had it down to a science so his performances really stood out. You noticed Leo Boivin out there, very astute player, smart & if you were a player if you underestimated or ignored him you did so at great peril, risking life & limb. But for a couple of seasons in the late 50's when Boston made some noise in the Playoffs Leo Boivin & a few other Bruins who had they been playing for the Leafs, Habs or even Chicago, there would be absolutely no one questioning their induction into the HHOF.

 

[Hobnobs]

If Adam Foote is a HHOFer then what is Derian Hatcher?

 

[crobro]

If Adam Foote is a HHOF material then so is Jiri Bubla

 

[Killion]

Canadiens or Killion, can you compare Leo Boivin to, say, Adam Foote? Interested in hearing your take since (I think) you watched Bovin play, and I didn't.

From what I've read about Bovin, it seems like he and Fooote have similar styles (hard-hitting defensive defensemen). Their career games played & scoring totals are very similar. Both got a few throwaway votes for the Norris and year-end all-star teams. Foote had more team success (significant contributor on two Cup winning teams, and also a participant in a few international tournaments).

Would you also advocate for Foote having a spot in the Hall of Fame? Or was Boivin clearly better?

Yeah, thats an excellent comparison only reverse it, imagine Foote stuck on the Columbus Blue Line during his best years rather than in Colorado, then after a decade in Ohio gets traded to Colorado who's best years had come & gone just as Leo Boivin eventually wound up in Detroit, where with great goaltending from Roger Crozier did make some noise but not enough to capture the Stanley Cup.... And yes, I would nominate Foote for induction. He passes my bar. Foote at 6'2" & 220 however, and with all the changes in the game that occurred between Boivins peak era & Footes.... to suggest one is better than the other.... I'm rather loathe to do so.... apples & oranges on some levels. Both rugged. Both Defensive Defenceman. Both Leaders. Lots of similarities, enough for a favorable comparison, sure.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Canadiens or Killion, can you compare Leo Boivin to, say, Adam Foote? Interested in hearing your take since (I think) you watched Bovias an excellent hipchecker while Foote was a better stand-up physical defencemenn play, and I didn't.

From what I've read about Bovin, it seems like he and Fooote have similar styles (hard-hitting defensive defensemen). Their career games played & scoring totals are very similar. Both got a few throwaway votes for the Norris and year-end all-star teams. Foote had more team success (significant contributor on two Cup winning teams, and also a participant in a few international tournaments).

Would you also advocate for Foote having a spot in the Hall of Fame? Or was Boivin clearly better?

Nice comparison. 6" height difference created a situation where Boivin was a hipcheck specialist arguably the best of his time while Foote was a stand-up physical defenceman but never considered the best of his time in that niche. Boivin was more mobile, a better skater overall who could play forward in a pinch. Scored a penalty shot goal against the Canadiens in the sixties while with Boston.

An analogy would be Brian Rafalski but Boivin could be a devestating hitter with less offence but who played top pairing.

Foote in his niche was better than a Craig Ludwig, smarter than Jovo,but below Chris Pronger, Scott Stevens, Chris Chelios, Konstantinov,the Hatcher brothers

 

[crobro]

Always wondered if Wendel Clark was never converted to forward after being drafted would have been a Boivin/Doughty hybrid.

 

[insomniac]

Dave Andreychuk - A player that tends to make you never look at the HHOF the same again

Joe Nieuwendyk - Never a star, never a #1 center for any stretch of time

Andreychuk played 1500+ games (7th all-time), scored 500+ goals (14th all-time), and scored 1000+ points (29th all-time). That seems pretty hall-worthy to me. Even without the scoring stats, you can't tell me that the NHL player with the seventh most games played doesn't belong in the hall of fame.

Nieuwendyk played 1000 + games (83rd all-time), scored 500+ goals (24th all-time), and 1000+ points (57th all-time). That still seems hall-worthy to me.

 

[crobro]

Nieuwendyk Is definitely Hall worthy

 

[Canadiens1958]

Always wondered if Wendel Clark was never converted to forward after being drafted would have been a Boivin/Doughty hybrid.

Converted because Wendel Clark did not have the hockey smarts to play defence in the NHL.

 

[Passchendaele]

Any player who wouldn't be inducted if they were on a less successful team shouldn't be.

Yes, Clark Gillies. Dick Duff. Bill Barber.

Arguably even Bob Gainey.. can you even imagine how he would be perceived as a player had he been on the North Stars from 1973-1989?

Toews is what I'd define as a borderline case. Probably out. Half of his odds were generated by the media machine. He has nothing on Theo Fleury, but people would still induct him first.

 

[Killion]

Converted because Wendel Clark did not have the hockey smarts to play defence in the NHL.

.... oh boy.... alrighty then..... and ya, Clark a high scoring fighter of a Defenceman with the WHL Saskatoon Blades.... picked for Team Canada's WJC team & converted to the Wing by Coach Terry Simpson. Clark extremely effective, loved it, Won Gold... and so when he arrived in Toronto as the #1 Overall Pick, Great White Hope, thats where they left him; as a Winger.

 

[DitchMarner]

Any player who wouldn't be inducted if they were on a less successful team shouldn't be.

Yes, Clark Gillies. Dick Duff. Bill Barber.

Arguably even Bob Gainey.. can you even imagine how he would be perceived as a player had he been on the North Stars from 1973-1989?

Toews is what I'd define as a borderline case. Probably out. Half of his odds were generated by the media machine. He has nothing on Theo Fleury, but people would still induct him first.

The thing people need to realize is that Toews played a key role in turning the Blackhawks around.

Remember the post Roenick/Chelios/Belfour years? The franchise was floundering badly.

He wasn't just some guy who was drafted to a great team that made him look better than he was; he was the leader and one of the core pieces of a turn around in CHI.

He was a better player than he is now when he was younger. He wasn't the flashiest player or the most offensively gifted, but he was an integral part of a team's revival.

 

[DitchMarner]

Nieuwendyk Is definitely Hall worthy

Personally, I'm okay with his induction.

I know seventieslord and Big Phil don't love it... it's true he wasn't a star centre; however, he was another guy - like Toews - who could contribute to success despite not necessarily having superstar talent.

He played an important role in the Flames' and Stars' Cup wins. He didn't finish in the top for points in a season, but he did have five finishes in the top ten for goals. Thus I don't think you can really call him a "compiler," especially considering he was able to help a couple of teams win Cups.

I don't really see how Joe Mullen is more worthy of being in the HHOF. He pretty much has the same types of credentials: 500+ goals, 1000+ points, a few finishes in the top ten for goals and three Cups. Mullen had some big playoff performances and Nieuwendyk won a Conn Smythe and scored ten goals for the Flames when they won the Cup in '89.

I'm not sure what makes Ciccarelli better. I don't know if Glenn Anderson was better than Nieuwendyk individually, either.

 

[DitchMarner]

.... oh boy.... alrighty then..... and ya, Clark a high scoring fighter of a Defenceman with the WHL Saskatoon Blades.... picked for Team Canada's WJC team & converted to the Wing by Coach Terry Simpson. Clark extremely effective, loved it, Won Gold... and so when he arrived in Toronto as the #1 Overall Pick, Great White Hope, thats where they left him; as a Winger.

Killion, how do you think Clark compares to Clark Gillies? Do you think he could have played a similar role on the dynasty Islanders?

 

[The Panther]

Andreychuk played 1500+ games (7th all-time), scored 500+ goals (14th all-time), and scored 1000+ points (29th all-time). That seems pretty hall-worthy to me.

Which is exactly why we can't use absolute career numbers to evaluate Hall-of-Fame-worthiness.

How about the career stats of a guy who scored 1064 career points, another 53 playoff points (inc. two multiple-digit scoring runs and a Stanley Cup championship), and did this with 3/4 of his playing career (and all his playoff numbers) in the Dead-puck era? Seems quite Hall-worthy, doesn't it?

Welcome to the Hall of Fame, Ray Whitney!!

 

[Killion]

Killion, how do you think Clark compares to Clark Gillies? Do you think he could have played a similar role on the dynasty Islanders?

Certainly not in the same way that Gillies did which was a lot more subtle than what we ever saw with Clark however it is possible that given the team dynamic of the Islanders at that time, that the influence of others on the roster, obviously far deeper & better talent than what Clark was dealt in Toronto (and elsewhere), superior Coaching on Long Island.... he might have fit in quite nicely, sure. Sort of a cross between Gillies & Goring provided he played injury free, and upon entering the NHL had been "groomed" properly by the vets & Coaches with the Islanders. Something he never had with the Leafs. Just thrown right out there into the deep end, declared "game ready". Whirling Dervish. Beyond rambunctious & energetic, laying on the body with extreme prejudice. Really rough around the edges. Those edges had they been buffed, had he been brought along a little more slowly, some of the Wild in the lad weaned out, taught to use his head a lot more then sure, perhaps. That being said, if were also talking fighting, as a "general deterrent" because Clarks out there then no, I dont think he was on par with Gillies in that department either.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Certainly not in the same way that Gillies did which was a lot more subtle than what we ever saw with Clark however it is possible that given the team dynamic of the Islanders at that time, that the influence of others on the roster, obviously far deeper & better talent than what Clark was dealt in Toronto (and elsewhere), superior Coaching on Long Island.... he might have fit in quite nicely, sure. Sort of a cross between Gillies & Goring provided he played injury free, and upon entering the NHL had been "groomed" properly by the vets & Coaches with the Islanders. Something he never had with the Leafs. Just thrown right out there into the deep end, declared "game ready". Whirling Dervish. Beyond rambunctious & energetic, laying on the body with extreme prejudice. Really rough around the edges. Those edges had they been buffed, had he been brought along a little more slowly, some of the Wild in the lad weaned out, taught to use his head a lot more then sure, perhaps. That being said, if were also talking fighting, as a "general deterrent" because Clarks out there then no, I dont think he was on par with Gillies in that department either.

Similar comparables with Eddie Shack going to the Leafs from the Phil Watson Rangers. The team would provide Shack with stability and leadership. Or if Al Iafrate played with a Larry Robinson. Didn't change Chelios much.

Or Steve Durbano with a good team.

Player tends to be what he is.

 

[Killion]

Similar comparables with Eddie Shack going to the Leafs from the Phil Watson Rangers. The team would provide Shack with stability and leadership. Or if Al Iafrate played with a Larry Robinson. Didn't change Chelios much.

Or Steve Durbano with a good team.

Player tends to be what he is.

Precisely. Head strong guy like Wendel Clark you just dont know. You can try & domesticate a feral cat all you want... could make inroads over time whereby it "might" even let you pet it... but God help you some external & unexpected loud noise should occur while your petting it, hand inches from its mouth, claws.... fool yourself that its all under control, overconfident, pick it up for a cuddle, tamed.... thing'll go off on you slightest provocation. guaranteed..... wind up looking like you were attacked by Freddy Krueger... so ya... sorta like that when contemplating Wendel Clark a NY Islander circa 80/85... One might "like" or "want" to believe its possible but.... just dont know really.